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Post-TOP Freeza versus Jiren
- Thread starter EightAte8
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- dragon ball frieza jiren
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Jiren's feats are dominating SSJBKKx20 tier Characters and he has also been stated to be stronger than GoDs multiple times.
Frieza on the other hand has been shown to be durability wise way above a SSB, strength wise I guess he is higher too. He could withstand SSJ Broly for a complete hour. Though this Broly is far away from being GoD level yet. And Frieza is well below him. Jiren is much more impressive feat wise
So Jiren > GoDs > SSJ Broly > Frieza. My vote is on Jiren.
Frieza on the other hand has been shown to be durability wise way above a SSB, strength wise I guess he is higher too. He could withstand SSJ Broly for a complete hour. Though this Broly is far away from being GoD level yet. And Frieza is well below him. Jiren is much more impressive feat wise
So Jiren > GoDs > SSJ Broly > Frieza. My vote is on Jiren.
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SS Broly is 50x Post-ToP Goku.
UIS is at least 40x Blue.
SS Broly is, therefore, as strong as UIS Goku.
UIS3 Goku was weaker than Jiren but Goku logically grew stronger from the UIS3 and UI limit breaks, and had some time to train after the ToP. Post-ToP Goku with UIS may be as strong as Pre-LB Jiren.
Base Jiren >/= SS Broly > UIS3 Goku > Golden Frieza
Frieza is going to take a very long time for Jiren to take down, but Frieza isn't going to have any way to put Jiren down. He can't bust the planet to kill him, his telekinesis can't force Jiren into a black hole (which could trap Jiren if beyond the event horizon) and it's doubtful that his paralysis can lock Jiren down for an hour.
The only way Frieza will win is if Jiren grows weaker from expending energy against Frieza's insane endurance and stamina, but we have no clue how Jiren fairs in long-term battles. At the same time, Jiren was basically at peak condition when Goku went UIS3 and UI and he still got stomped in less than two minutes despite not being as far behind Goku as Frieza was with Broly.
Overall, it depends on Jiren's stamina. If Jiren's stamina is argued to not last nearly as long as Frieza or Broly, then Frieza can possibly take this. If Jiren's stamina won't go beneath Frieza in the span of an hour, then Jiren stomps.
UIS is at least 40x Blue.
SS Broly is, therefore, as strong as UIS Goku.
UIS3 Goku was weaker than Jiren but Goku logically grew stronger from the UIS3 and UI limit breaks, and had some time to train after the ToP. Post-ToP Goku with UIS may be as strong as Pre-LB Jiren.
Base Jiren >/= SS Broly > UIS3 Goku > Golden Frieza
Frieza is going to take a very long time for Jiren to take down, but Frieza isn't going to have any way to put Jiren down. He can't bust the planet to kill him, his telekinesis can't force Jiren into a black hole (which could trap Jiren if beyond the event horizon) and it's doubtful that his paralysis can lock Jiren down for an hour.
The only way Frieza will win is if Jiren grows weaker from expending energy against Frieza's insane endurance and stamina, but we have no clue how Jiren fairs in long-term battles. At the same time, Jiren was basically at peak condition when Goku went UIS3 and UI and he still got stomped in less than two minutes despite not being as far behind Goku as Frieza was with Broly.
Overall, it depends on Jiren's stamina. If Jiren's stamina is argued to not last nearly as long as Frieza or Broly, then Frieza can possibly take this. If Jiren's stamina won't go beneath Frieza in the span of an hour, then Jiren stomps.
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1. SSJ Broly isn't 50 times stronger than SSGSS Goku. Even assuming that multipliers are allowed on this wiki, he would only be 5 times stronger, since Ikari Broly < SSGSS Goku, and Ikari = Great Ape, which is a 10 times multiplier
2. Where are you getting over 40 times?
3. Base Jiren scales above the GoDs since he's been stated to be the "mortal above the GoDs". Also, when Beerus sensed Supressed Jiren's power, he was scared half to death, which further justifies his power.
Overall Jiren should be perfectly capable of smearing Frieza into roadkill fairly easily
2. Where are you getting over 40 times?
3. Base Jiren scales above the GoDs since he's been stated to be the "mortal above the GoDs". Also, when Beerus sensed Supressed Jiren's power, he was scared half to death, which further justifies his power.
Overall Jiren should be perfectly capable of smearing Frieza into roadkill fairly easily
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Jiren FRA
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SSJ Broly isn't 50 times stronger than SSGSS Goku.
We clearly see Broly is using Ikari in Super Saiyan, meaning he is stacking the forms. This is what has also been generally accepted on the wiki.
. Even assuming that multipliers are allowed on this wiki,
Super Saiyan, Kaio-Ken, Great Ape and Ultra Instinct Omen all have accepted multipliers.
he would only be 5 times stronger
50x stronger.
Where are you getting over 40 times?
The wiki accepted UIS as being at least 40x Blue, due to the Spirit Bomb scaling above X20 Goku Blue and UIS surpassing that level. The general consensus is that UIS is at least twice the power of X20 Blue.
Base Jiren scales above the GoDs
No. He only scales above Belmod, a singular GoD. He is never stated to scale above all the GoDs.
since he's been stated to be the "mortal above the GoDs".
No, A singular GoD.
when Beerus sensed Supressed Jiren's power, he was scared half to death,
Beerus was simply in awe of Jiren's power and nothing less. We have magazine statements claiming UI Goku is around Beerus-level. We have countless statements, claims and advertisements showing Broly is the 'strongest' opponent ever faced, with Goku considering Broly to be Beerus-level and we even have the manga, which Toriyama oversees with Toyotaro, depicting Beerus as nearly killing six GoDs in a single blast.
Beerus has, and always will be, vastly superior to every other GoD. Nothing has ever contradicted this and there is little to no indication that Jiren surpasses all the GoDs, simply the 'GoD-level' which Whis explains is akin to a 'mountain' to scale and with Beerus consistently being depicted as above the other GoDs in power.
We clearly see Broly is using Ikari in Super Saiyan, meaning he is stacking the forms. This is what has also been generally accepted on the wiki.
. Even assuming that multipliers are allowed on this wiki,
Super Saiyan, Kaio-Ken, Great Ape and Ultra Instinct Omen all have accepted multipliers.
he would only be 5 times stronger
50x stronger.
Where are you getting over 40 times?
The wiki accepted UIS as being at least 40x Blue, due to the Spirit Bomb scaling above X20 Goku Blue and UIS surpassing that level. The general consensus is that UIS is at least twice the power of X20 Blue.
Base Jiren scales above the GoDs
No. He only scales above Belmod, a singular GoD. He is never stated to scale above all the GoDs.
since he's been stated to be the "mortal above the GoDs".
No, A singular GoD.
when Beerus sensed Supressed Jiren's power, he was scared half to death,
Beerus was simply in awe of Jiren's power and nothing less. We have magazine statements claiming UI Goku is around Beerus-level. We have countless statements, claims and advertisements showing Broly is the 'strongest' opponent ever faced, with Goku considering Broly to be Beerus-level and we even have the manga, which Toriyama oversees with Toyotaro, depicting Beerus as nearly killing six GoDs in a single blast.
Beerus has, and always will be, vastly superior to every other GoD. Nothing has ever contradicted this and there is little to no indication that Jiren surpasses all the GoDs, simply the 'GoD-level' which Whis explains is akin to a 'mountain' to scale and with Beerus consistently being depicted as above the other GoDs in power.
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1. He's stacking forms? How do you know that? He doesn't really look any different than a normal Super Saiyan
2. Super Saiyan doesn't have an accepted multiplier. UI (as far as I know) doesn't either. Do you have links for that?
3. 5 times stronger assuming he DIDN'T stack forms
4. wait what? where did it say this? where did it say Spirit Bomb is x20 stronger than Blue?
5. Belmod apparantly beat Beerus in arm wrestling. Plus in the anime there is no distinction between the powers of the GoDs as far as i remember. Only the Manga showcases this
6. Whis says that there's a mortal that surpasses the power of a God of Destruction. Since the anime doesn't specify any power difference between different GoDs, it's safe to assume that Jiren is superior to the "stereotypical" GoD level of power
7. Since when did the anime specify any difference between the GoDs?
Either I'm super clueless since I'm not aware of anything you're saying, or your lying. I'm willing to bet that the former is true. Can you give me some links for all of this?
2. Super Saiyan doesn't have an accepted multiplier. UI (as far as I know) doesn't either. Do you have links for that?
3. 5 times stronger assuming he DIDN'T stack forms
4. wait what? where did it say this? where did it say Spirit Bomb is x20 stronger than Blue?
5. Belmod apparantly beat Beerus in arm wrestling. Plus in the anime there is no distinction between the powers of the GoDs as far as i remember. Only the Manga showcases this
6. Whis says that there's a mortal that surpasses the power of a God of Destruction. Since the anime doesn't specify any power difference between different GoDs, it's safe to assume that Jiren is superior to the "stereotypical" GoD level of power
7. Since when did the anime specify any difference between the GoDs?
Either I'm super clueless since I'm not aware of anything you're saying, or your lying. I'm willing to bet that the former is true. Can you give me some links for all of this?
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How do you know that? He doesn't really look any different than a normal Super Saiya
Super Saiyan doesn't have an accepted multiplier. UI (as far as I know) doesn't either. Do you have links for that?
Sure
5 times stronger assuming he DIDN'T stack forms
He stacked forms, as I show in the image above. If that isn't form stacking, then Broly isn't even using Super Saiyan. He's using something completely different.
wait what? where did it say this? where did it say Spirit Bomb is x20 stronger than Blue?
Goku used the Kaio-Ken X20 against Jiren, and his Spirit Bomb pushed Jiren harder than he ever did in X20 up to that point. Goku's Universe 7 Spirit Bomb is stronger than his X20 Blue, and UIS Goku pushed Jiren much harder than the Spirit Bomb did.
Belmod apparantly beat Beerus in arm wrestling.
That's not a good statistic of power, especially not when Beerus denies it with a completely straight face (zero humour or embarassment, just plain denial that Belmod is stronger) and Belmod was far more terrified than Beerus in the ToP, considering how frequently he was going crazy over Goku. Beerus, to contrast, only displayed shock and awe at Jiren once or twice and then maintained his composure for most of the tournament.
Only the Manga showcases this
Magazine scans scale Beerus to around UI Goku-level and Broly, who is considered the strongest IRL by actual staff, marketing and even in-universe by characters like Frieza (who fought and witnessed much of Jiren's base power) scales to Beerus-level.
it's safe to assume that Jiren is superior to the "stereotypical" GoD level of power
Even if you claim this, nothing has ever indicated that Beerus is the 'stereotypical' GoD level of power.
Since when did the anime specify any difference between the GoDs?
Vados implies Champa is weaker than Beerus. Toppo is far weaker than Beerus (simple math shows SS Broly should be stronger than Toppo due to Ikari + SS stacking, and he struggled against SS Gogeta whereas FPSS forced Gogeta into Blue), Sidra was terrified of Frieza, Champa couldn't see Dyspo's movements and so on, so forth.
There are quite a few examples of GoDs differing notably in power. The only instance of GoDs being 'maybe' around the same level is when three GoDs gave Zeno an exhibition match at the ToP arena, and even that was mainly for entertainment value.
Super Saiyan doesn't have an accepted multiplier. UI (as far as I know) doesn't either. Do you have links for that?
Sure
5 times stronger assuming he DIDN'T stack forms
He stacked forms, as I show in the image above. If that isn't form stacking, then Broly isn't even using Super Saiyan. He's using something completely different.
wait what? where did it say this? where did it say Spirit Bomb is x20 stronger than Blue?
Goku used the Kaio-Ken X20 against Jiren, and his Spirit Bomb pushed Jiren harder than he ever did in X20 up to that point. Goku's Universe 7 Spirit Bomb is stronger than his X20 Blue, and UIS Goku pushed Jiren much harder than the Spirit Bomb did.
Belmod apparantly beat Beerus in arm wrestling.
That's not a good statistic of power, especially not when Beerus denies it with a completely straight face (zero humour or embarassment, just plain denial that Belmod is stronger) and Belmod was far more terrified than Beerus in the ToP, considering how frequently he was going crazy over Goku. Beerus, to contrast, only displayed shock and awe at Jiren once or twice and then maintained his composure for most of the tournament.
Only the Manga showcases this
Magazine scans scale Beerus to around UI Goku-level and Broly, who is considered the strongest IRL by actual staff, marketing and even in-universe by characters like Frieza (who fought and witnessed much of Jiren's base power) scales to Beerus-level.
it's safe to assume that Jiren is superior to the "stereotypical" GoD level of power
Even if you claim this, nothing has ever indicated that Beerus is the 'stereotypical' GoD level of power.
Since when did the anime specify any difference between the GoDs?
Vados implies Champa is weaker than Beerus. Toppo is far weaker than Beerus (simple math shows SS Broly should be stronger than Toppo due to Ikari + SS stacking, and he struggled against SS Gogeta whereas FPSS forced Gogeta into Blue), Sidra was terrified of Frieza, Champa couldn't see Dyspo's movements and so on, so forth.
There are quite a few examples of GoDs differing notably in power. The only instance of GoDs being 'maybe' around the same level is when three GoDs gave Zeno an exhibition match at the ToP arena, and even that was mainly for entertainment value.
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Jiren one shots
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1. That's one detail I didn't see in the movie. No wonder he was stomping everyone
2. Mastered UI still doesn't have a multiplier. It's just vastly beyond 40 times SSGSS. But yeah SSJ does
3. yeah that makes sense
4. ok
5. Broly Movie and Manga are 2 seperate universes with 2 separate canons
6. Nothing really indicates that ANIME Beerus is superior to every other GoD either
7. Toppo < Beerus?
Dyspo faster than Champa?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Toppo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beerus
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sidra
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dyspo
I agree with your other stuff except for those 2 points.
All of the GoDs should at LEAST be in the same range of power as each other, so since Base Jiren scales above Belmod, who is comparable to Beerus, Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren should be far superior to Beerus at this time.
then again, Full Power Ikari SSJ Broly should also mathematically be superior to Beerus by a lot since his previous SSJ form is stronger than Toppo who is comparable to Beerus
hmmmmmmm
2. Mastered UI still doesn't have a multiplier. It's just vastly beyond 40 times SSGSS. But yeah SSJ does
3. yeah that makes sense
4. ok
5. Broly Movie and Manga are 2 seperate universes with 2 separate canons
6. Nothing really indicates that ANIME Beerus is superior to every other GoD either
7. Toppo < Beerus?
Dyspo faster than Champa?
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Toppo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beerus
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sidra
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dyspo
I agree with your other stuff except for those 2 points.
All of the GoDs should at LEAST be in the same range of power as each other, so since Base Jiren scales above Belmod, who is comparable to Beerus, Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren should be far superior to Beerus at this time.
then again, Full Power Ikari SSJ Broly should also mathematically be superior to Beerus by a lot since his previous SSJ form is stronger than Toppo who is comparable to Beerus
hmmmmmmm
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Nothing really indicates that ANIME Beerus is superior to every other GoD either
Champa is considered weaker than Beerus by his teacher (Vados) and Beerus is definitely way stronger than Toppo.
Toppo < Beerus?
Goku considers FPSS Broly to be around Beerus-level, when Broly pushed Gogeta to go Blue from Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan Broly is already around 40-50x the power of Goku Blue.
SSBE = KKX20 Blue according to Director Nagamine
Final Explosion SSBE overpowered and knocked out Toppo.
Even if we argue that Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger since Post-UIS2, that Toppo mostly held back against Vegeta, that Vegeta grew stronger as he fought Toppo and that Final Explosion is several times the AP of baseline SSBE Vegeta's AP, that would still make GoD Toppo only a few times stronger than SS Broly.
FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >/= SSG Gogeta(?) >> SS3 Gogeta >> SS2 Gogeta >> SS Gogeta >/= SS Broly >> SSBE Vegeta
The gap is WAY too huge to claim Toppo, a GoD, is anywhere near Beerus-level.
Therefore GoDs do vary in power.
Dyspo faster than Champa?
The wiki itself doesn't really accept this, but Champa outright states he can't even see Dyspo whereas Frieza is capable of blitzing Lightspeed Dyspo and can react/predict to all of Max Lightspeed Dyspo's movements. Champa also freaked out over X10 Goku Blue and Hit glaring at him, falling over.
Champa is considered weaker than Beerus by his teacher (Vados) and Beerus is definitely way stronger than Toppo.
Toppo < Beerus?
Goku considers FPSS Broly to be around Beerus-level, when Broly pushed Gogeta to go Blue from Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan Broly is already around 40-50x the power of Goku Blue.
SSBE = KKX20 Blue according to Director Nagamine
Final Explosion SSBE overpowered and knocked out Toppo.
Even if we argue that Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger since Post-UIS2, that Toppo mostly held back against Vegeta, that Vegeta grew stronger as he fought Toppo and that Final Explosion is several times the AP of baseline SSBE Vegeta's AP, that would still make GoD Toppo only a few times stronger than SS Broly.
FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >/= SSG Gogeta(?) >> SS3 Gogeta >> SS2 Gogeta >> SS Gogeta >/= SS Broly >> SSBE Vegeta
The gap is WAY too huge to claim Toppo, a GoD, is anywhere near Beerus-level.
Therefore GoDs do vary in power.
Dyspo faster than Champa?
The wiki itself doesn't really accept this, but Champa outright states he can't even see Dyspo whereas Frieza is capable of blitzing Lightspeed Dyspo and can react/predict to all of Max Lightspeed Dyspo's movements. Champa also freaked out over X10 Goku Blue and Hit glaring at him, falling over.
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1. The GoDs I want to focus on are Belmod and Beerus since Jiren scales to Belmod and Broly scales to Beerus. Although I agree that Champa < Beerus by an unknown degree, we don't know how much Beerus scales to the other GoDs.
2. I see. Then his page needs to be updated.
3. ok
2. I see. Then his page needs to be updated.
3. ok
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The GoDs I want to focus on are Belmod and Beerus since Jiren scales to Belmod and Broly scales to Beerus. Although I agree that Champa < Beerus by an unknown degree, we don't know how much Beerus scales to the other GoDs.
We don't have much to base Beerus vs Belmod on, other than reactions. But we can consider:
Thus the scaling should be:
SSB Gogeta >> FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >> Base Jiren ? SS Broly > Belmod ? Golden Frieza ? X20 Goku Blue ? SSBE Vegeta > GoD Toppo > Goku/Vegeta Blue > UIS1 Goku
Of course, the gap between that level of Jiren's power and Jiren's full power COULD be thousands of times, but there is very little indicating as such. There is little doubt that Beerus is stronger than Base Jiren due to scaling to FPSS Broly based on Goku's claims (which would have to have contradiction to be taken into question) and we know Belmod can't defeat Base Jiren.
I see. Then his page needs to be updated.
Doubtful that it would happen. AKM strongly believes that the GoDs should all be considered around the same level, and is to my knowledge the main person that handles revisions and profiles for DB.
I think Beerus' page is what should be updated instead. It shouldn't be much argument to convince people that Beerus is far stronger than the conventional GoD-level fighter. Pretty much the only argument against Beerus scaling to FPSS Broly is that 'Goku wouldn't know'. The issue is that Goku has actively fought Jiren and Beerus multiple times and was GoD+ level multiple times himself. To add further, Goku would know far more about Beerus' power than anyone but Beerus and Whis due to fighting Beerus, training on Beerus' Home and generally interacting with him very frequently.
We don't have much to base Beerus vs Belmod on, other than reactions. But we can consider:
- Beerus displays fear far less frequently than Belmod
- Belmod believes it is impossible for him to ever defeat Jiren.
- Frieza claims SS Broly is stronger than anyone he has ever faced before. Frieza was conscious when Jiren fought X20 Goku Blue and SSBE Vegeta at the same time and ambushed him. Thus, we can ascertain that SS Broly is much stronger than that level of Jiren's power, which could stomp SSBE and X20 Blue combined.
- The gap between FPSS Broly and SS Broly is at least thousands of times, considering he went from being a bit weaker than SS Gogeta to taking dozens of blows from SSB Gogeta
- Goku considers FPSS Broly to be Beerus-level
Thus the scaling should be:
SSB Gogeta >> FPSS Broly >/= Beerus >> Base Jiren ? SS Broly > Belmod ? Golden Frieza ? X20 Goku Blue ? SSBE Vegeta > GoD Toppo > Goku/Vegeta Blue > UIS1 Goku
Of course, the gap between that level of Jiren's power and Jiren's full power COULD be thousands of times, but there is very little indicating as such. There is little doubt that Beerus is stronger than Base Jiren due to scaling to FPSS Broly based on Goku's claims (which would have to have contradiction to be taken into question) and we know Belmod can't defeat Base Jiren.
I see. Then his page needs to be updated.
Doubtful that it would happen. AKM strongly believes that the GoDs should all be considered around the same level, and is to my knowledge the main person that handles revisions and profiles for DB.
I think Beerus' page is what should be updated instead. It shouldn't be much argument to convince people that Beerus is far stronger than the conventional GoD-level fighter. Pretty much the only argument against Beerus scaling to FPSS Broly is that 'Goku wouldn't know'. The issue is that Goku has actively fought Jiren and Beerus multiple times and was GoD+ level multiple times himself. To add further, Goku would know far more about Beerus' power than anyone but Beerus and Whis due to fighting Beerus, training on Beerus' Home and generally interacting with him very frequently.
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Ok thanks for the info
Back to Frieza then
so who would win between Golden Frieza and Base Jiren?
well SSJ Ikari Broly is, as you said above, likely 50 times stronger than SSGSS Goku because of the SSJ Multipliers. Jiren is casually 40 times stronger than SSGSS Goku because he was stomping them while only showing "a hint of his true power". So he shouldn't be that far behind SSJ Ikari Broly. Frieza, on the other hand, was able to acomplish literally nothing in his fight with Broly, to the point where Broly literally got bored and left to punch Whis.
So I can see the fight playing out very similar to Frieza vs Broly: Frieza tries to fight back while Jiren glares him into submission over and over again. Eventually Frieza's stamina runs out and Jiren smashes him into paste
Voting Jiren for now
Back to Frieza then
so who would win between Golden Frieza and Base Jiren?
well SSJ Ikari Broly is, as you said above, likely 50 times stronger than SSGSS Goku because of the SSJ Multipliers. Jiren is casually 40 times stronger than SSGSS Goku because he was stomping them while only showing "a hint of his true power". So he shouldn't be that far behind SSJ Ikari Broly. Frieza, on the other hand, was able to acomplish literally nothing in his fight with Broly, to the point where Broly literally got bored and left to punch Whis.
So I can see the fight playing out very similar to Frieza vs Broly: Frieza tries to fight back while Jiren glares him into submission over and over again. Eventually Frieza's stamina runs out and Jiren smashes him into paste
Voting Jiren for now
EightAte8
They/Them- 323
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- Thread starter
- #17
If I could play devil's advocate, here, I think Freeza could potentially win (or at least survive longer) through one way - #17 somewhat damaged Jiren by hitting him in the back. Granted, he needed an opening for that to work, but I think Freeza's a sneaky enough fighter that he could potentially land some hits on Jiren that way.
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massive outlier considering how 17 is 3A and Jiren is vastly into Low 2C. Plus Jiren was still holding back at the timeEightAte8 said:
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As I said, Frieza's only real shot at winning is trying to maximise his own stamina whilst exhausting Jiren of his own stamina, closing their gap. The issue is that we don't really have much regarding Jiren's stamina. We know Jiren's stamina can get mostly wasted by fighting and losing to someone around his level (UI Goku) in just a minute or two but we don't know if Jiren can continously fight for over an hour straight whilst maintaining his peak power like Broly can.
