Power scaling issues in JoJo's Bizzare Adventure

[LoudCloud]

Just 2 issues I noticed in the character profiles. I may find/add more later.

1. How come Part 8 Killer Queen gets scaled to Part 4 Killer Queen's speed, but Part 4 KQ doesn't scale to Part 8 KQ's attack potency? If we're going to argue that Part 8 KQ is practically the same as Part 4 and has the same speed stats, then shouldn't the same also apply for attack potency?

2. Massimo Volpe is stated in his profile multiple times to be comparable to vampires when his stats are enhanced by his stand. However, it provides no evidence for this claim, nor do I remember such statements in the novel. This could be in reference to how Volpe was planning on obtaining a stone mask and turning into a vampire, but this plan fell through and the mask was destroyed before Volpe got to use it. This claim also effects the profile for the PHF version of Fugo since he scales to Volpe.

 

[Chariot190]

idk could be because SHA is the reason why Part 8 has that AP, and Part 8 SHA, unlike Part 8 KQ acts a bit differently, idk. Part 8 KQ never actually hits anything as well so idk why he's scaling to his SHA via ap.

Pretty sure the plan in PHF was to get the Stone Mask to permanetly get the power of a vampire due to his Stand's boost only lasting a few minutes at time but said boost being almost identical to the Stone Mask (hell it kinda pushes it in your face, even ripping lines from part 1 when directly talking about the boost of his Stand) with Volpe post boost even doing vampiric things like the wry under his breath or biological manip via sticking his fingers into someone's neck which is a super vampire thing in jojo.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is super contradictory indeed, Diego's TW is literally the same of Dio's, so why Kira can't do that too? An High 8-C upgrade to anyone of them would make sense

 

[Chariot190]

Because Diego's TW is identical to Dio's. It even has the exact same Stand Stats, which while we do not use them to scale Stands, the two Th World's having the same Stand stats kinda confirms it, plus they work exactly the same.

SHA? Well probably, but we don't know yet.They indeed aren't identical though, they have slightly different powers unlike the worlds. We're going to have to wait till the Part 8 Stand stats come out and see what JoJolion SHA gets, if it's the same then yeah it would warrant scaling and as for Part 8 KQ, he never actually hit or defended against anything so idk why he's scaling to his SHA. (Hell not even Part 4 KQ scales to his SHA because it's a **** ton stronger, Part 8 KQ would have to scale to like 3 SHA given that's how many did the feat).

Basically in order to properly scale the two SHA's we gotta wait till Araki gets off his ass and gives stats. Although part 8 KQ should be the same as Part 4 KQ in the physical department, he never actually attacks physically (he tries but he gets ****** by Vitamin-C and becomes liquid).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Makes sense

 

[LoudCloud]

Surely a lot of Part 8 profiles must be downgraded if we don't have sufficient evidence of Part 8 KQ scaling to Part 4 KQ nor Part 8 SHA scaling to Part 8 KQ.

As for the Volpe thing, I remember seeing something like that in his profile, yet when reading the novel I was aware of Volpe's profile but was confused at not finding any strong evidence to suggest he would scale to a vampire.

 

[Chariot190]

What? It's SHA scaling that's the issue, not KQ. The only profile that would need to be downgraded is Part 8 KQ's AP and durability given he never actually fought anyone who would scale to Part 8 Sha (Not to mention 3 SHA did the feat, which adds up given 3 SHA would be High 8-C given they're are 1ton+ alone via hurting SP) (And he's definitely not on par with three SHA). Actually it all adds up. 3 SHA are High 8-C, one alone is 8-C. Soft & Wet just has the benefit of harming characters who scale to the output of 3 SHA.

I didn't check the profile, that's just what I got from the novel itself. It's pretty clear Volpe's transformed state is almost exactly like a vampire, given he even does vampiric things like the wry under his breath like Dio does when he first turns, the hand thing and biological manip. On top of the direct quotes from Part 1 that described vampires being used to describe Volpe in that state.

 

[LoudCloud]

Ah ok, I was under the impression the attack potency of some Part 8 stands were being scaled from KQ and not SHA. My bad. But Part 8 KQ's speed still shouldn't scale to Part 4's, which would mean some Part 8 stands would be downgraded in speed right?

If we could get actual scans or evidence of the Volpe thing, that would be nice. For now there's not much in his profile that proves it. I'll have a look in the novel again if I can.

 

[Chariot190]

Why would it? Part 4 and 8 killer Queen are physically identical. what needs to be done is scale Part 8 KQ to Part 4 KQ in other physical stats given he doesn't scale to Soft&Wet or any other Stand in Part 8 as he never actuully landed a punch or got hit. Speed would scale though as Vitamin-C managed to blitz KQ (which is exactly why he failed to attack, he was liquified mid punch). Essentially Part 8 Stands scaleoff KQ but KQ doesn't scale off them as he got ****** by them.

I'm skimming through it, an important thing to note is this paragraph.

But the man behind the sickly stand looked overwhelmingly
confident.
Coming straight at me, you fool? You'll soon learn.
Kocaqi had said Volpe's stand gave him the power to rule
the world.
Let me show you why. My stand has the power to make me
more than human!
Manic Depression let out a high-pitched squeal, and flung
its arms around Volpe.
Countless needled jabbed out from all over its body.
Hypodermic needles.
Their tips pierced Volpe's flesh wherever their bodies met.
There was a squelching sound. The sound of something
tearing.
The sound of a body being freed from physical limits.
Volpe's mouth opened, but the breath that emerged sounded
inHuman.

Why is that important? Because Manic Depression did exactly what the Stone Mask does, unleashes the body of its physical limits via needles, the breath after it confirms it, as that's exactly what every Vampire we see in JoJo do after getting turned. Of course Volpe wouldn't scale to Dio, but he'd scale to that one thug or the vamo Santana ate.

 

[LoudCloud]

But if their stand powers don't even work identically, what makes you presume their physical stats are identical? Just because they look almost identical, doesn't necessarily mean they scale, or do we start powerscaling every alternate universe version of a superhero who looks the same but has different powers?

The quote you posted does draw some comparisons to vampires in JoJo, but again, it's far too much of an assumption to say they scale. Stands and Hamon draw a lot of comparisons between the two too, but no one claims that means they scale to each other automatically. The comparison of the needles is superficial at best, as one is an ancient stone mask that punctures specific parts of the brain to grant vampirism and the other is a stand unique to that user who's thorns damage/enhance bodily functions if it pierces flesh.

Now, the quotes that claim he's inhuman or beyond human limits are better examples, but it's still too vague as those things can imply any level of power above human and most humans in JoJo range from street to building+, so using fodder vampires is quite specific. If we're to take those claims literally it would make enhanced Volpe above the level of Building+ Hamon users in Part 1/2.

If anything it makes more sense to either scale the enhanced Volpe to Purple Haze or take the claim about human limits outright literally and say he's physically superior to Jonathan/Joseph. Alternatively, if there's evidence to suggest Volpe needed the mask solely to heal him from his own stand (which some people have suggested, despite me remembering no such thing in the novel) and not because he needed the extra power boost, then that would at least lead some credibility to the theory he's equal to a fodder vampire.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Wellshit

 

[Chariot190]

False equilavence. This aint comic books where the characters are explicitly shown to be different in strength between universes, and is canon they're different in strength as such we have no reason to believe otherwise (And for some verses we actually do treat it like that, see Pokemon, where all universes cross scale). See Superman Prime fighting like 5 different versions of Superman including post and pre-crisis where he punches the head off one but the other can fight him on even ground because he's a **** ton stronger. Jojo has one writer, Araki. If JJL KQ appears to be physically identical to OG KQ then by all intents and purposes it is, especially when there's precedent with the two The World's. Even then, alternate universe things in JoJo, character wise, usually are the same, Part 7 and it's numerous **** ton of Valentine clones, alternate examples of Johnny and etc are evidence of that. The issue is scaling between SHA because it used an ability that does appear different for the AP feat, the way it's explosions work act differently. Hell I'd go as far to say SHA itself is the same in raw stats, the issue comes when you start trying to scale what is different. Also for what it's worth, Josefumi fought both Kira's in EOH, which contrary to popular belief was written by Araki for the most part so it should be a good reflection of their power. If you really do have issue with scaling the two KQ's speed wise, we have Soft & Wet beating the shit out of Part 4 Kira with zero effort.


The quote I pointed out does more than draw some comparisons (And it was only one quote, there's a few more), it draws direct references toward it. Bad example, Hamon can literally become a Stand and all Hamon Users who have Stand potential gain Hermit Purple, which is the embodiment of Hamon energy. Hamon and Stands aren't the same initially, but Hamon can literally become a Stand if good enough, says as much in Part 7 of all places. Also we literally treat Hamon as being able to touch Stands due to HP. So, again, not making the strongest case for your point. Both the Stone Mask and MD use hyperdermic needles to unleash the target past human limitations, upon breaking those limits both Volpe and a vampire do the wry thing, not only that but Volpe gains vampire powers. He doesn't just get a strength boost, he seemingly gains the abilities of a vampire as a whole, the main xample being sticking his fingers into Sheila's neck and controling her vocal cords. If the dude breaks human limitaions in the same way a Stone Mask does via hypedermic needles (Mind you, that's exactly what the Stone Mask does, that being makes one break past human limitations, that's a direct quote from Part 1 the novel is using, it's a direct reference to it) and grants Volpe vampire powers, chances are, he becomes on par with a vampire, given that's everything the novel would have you believe, subtext is a thing, and it was pushing it hard.

The only reason why Volpe went after the mask is because it would make him undying, it had nothing to do with power, he was told it would make him an invincible undying warrior so he went after it.

 

[Chariot190]

And again, three SHA performed the feat, not one, even if you scale Part 4 SHA to Part 8 SHA, it'd only be 1/3rd the Ap and honestly, which is 8-C, pretty sure Part 4 SHA is already listed as much, given it has a varies tier, it probably does hit baseline High 8-C all things considered, it just happens to also be a lot less for colder things opposed to literal fire. (It knocked SP on it's ass and nearly killed Jotaro, who's 8-C+, so Part 4 SHA being able to reach 1/3rd of the Part 8 SHA feat probably is consistent). Either way, we can't scale Part 8 SHA's feat because it's triple what Part 4 SHA can do as it was done by 3 and if we did scale it, well, it'd be 8-C+, which is already what it's at. And Part 8 KQ doesn't scale to it either because he gets memed on by Vitamin-C, he does need to get downgraded though to 8-C.

 

[LoudCloud]

I reckon the nature of Valentine's stand in part 7 does actually show us pretty well how similar alternate universe versions of stands are. Though I need to point out that the World in Part 7 was virtually identical to Part 3, whereas the Killer Queens have different applications to their powers, so the comparison isn't exact. But fair enough.

(Though please refrain from using Eyes of Heaven as a legit example of anything, otherwise we'd be scaling characters in these profiles completely differently. Nor would I call the way Pokemon are scaled to be good example of anything resembling consistency.)

I think you misunderstand Hermit Purple. It isn't hamon itself, but it can conduct it. Nor is hamon its main ability; divination is, which has nothing to do with hamon (we know this because Dio was able to use Divination without knowing how to use Hamon and without harming himself, like vampire Straizo harmed himself with his Hamon in part 2). The theory all hamon users get the same stand doesn't have much evidence and it's even implied Dio and Joseph only have the same stand (Hermit Purple) because of the family ties to Jonathan's body (same reason Jotaro obtained The World).

I'm not aware of the claim in part 7 that says Hamon can become a stand, but even if it's true or even if it was true that Hermit Purple is literally the same as Hamon (which would contradict everything else I've pointed out) would people actually scale any stand to Hamon users? No, of course not. I wasn't even necesarilly referring to Hermit Purple, but rather how stands are said to be made of life energy (just like Hamon), require good breathing and focus to be used (just like Hamon), can be inherited (just like Hamon) and the countless stand abilities similar to Hamon (eg. Gold experience emits yellow life energy from its hand to heal others and has an association to sunlight just like Hamon). Yet would people assume Gold Experience's healing scales to Hamon healing just because their powers have somewhat similar fuctions and visual queues? Of course not.

And arguing that all Hamon-users can harm stands because of Hermit Purple is like arguing plankton can harm stands because of Foo Fighters. In both cases the stand takes a pre-existing thing (Hamon/Plankton) and places it in a stand vessel of sorts that allows it to interact with stands.

If we're going to take the claim that it boosted Volpe "past human limitations" literally, then it would put him at the same level as the strongest Hamon-users, and not fodder vampires. You claim he literally gains vampire powers from it only to contradict that by saying he needed the mask to be undying/invincible, so clearly those powers aren't the same. In fact, if they were, the negative effects of his stand wouldn't matter so much due to his Regenerationn/blood-sucking, making the quest for the mask pointless. Unless you meant that it almost gave him the same level of powers as the mask but not enough, in which case you'd be admitting he's actually weaker than a fodder vampire. As for the example you use of Volpe developing vampire powers after enhancing himself (jabbing his finger to control vocal chords); that's actually in-line with his stands regular powers before he ehances himself. Manic Depression allows a certain degree of control over other people's bodily functions and this is something Volpe can do with his hands, rather than the stand's thorns. We see this when Volpe restore's Vittorio's heart back to normal by thumping his back. In fact, in that very example you mention, it points out that his finger is healing Sheila's throat just like all the other examples of Manic Depression healing/manipulating people's bodies before the ehancement ever happened.

EDIT: The stuff I wrote about Hermit Purple is kinda irrelevant since I was talking about stands in general, and not Hermit Purple specifically (which does in fact have some relationship to Hamon due to the user but this isn't the case for any other stands). So feel free to ignore it.

 

[LoudCloud]

Here's a another issue I found with the scaling in JoJo profiles.

Ultimate Kars is Multi-city block level due to his Hamon being described as hundreds of times stronger than Joseph's. Yet Lisa Lisa's Hamon is described as 3 times stronger than Joseph's and she's put at the same level as him (Building+) despite this theoretically making her Large Building level.

 

[Chariot190]

>(Though please refrain from using Eyes of Heaven as a legit example of anything, otherwise we'd be scaling characters in these profiles completely differently. Nor would I call the way Pokemon are scaled to be good example of anything resembling consistency.)

I'd be ok with using EOH for anything that doesn't contradict the source material as both EOH's story and the manga was written by Araki. Is it canon? No, but it gives insight into canon given Araki did it. Never said Pokemon was an example of consistency but that is how we treat it, an eevee in the gams scales to eevee in the anime, manga, tcg, etc by virtue of being eevee and all of thoseexisting within the same multiverse. Didn't say I agree with it fully either but it is how it is. And yeah, it's why I'm not keen on scaling the abilities of the KQ's (although looking into pretty sure the only reason why the application is diffrent is because Part 4 Kira needed an explosive ability to erase evidence, Part 8 Kira needed an ability to help people, so while the same ability they manifested the applications in diffeent ways, and other than applicative methods it's otherwise the same).

Hermit Purple is Hamon embodied becoming a Stand, Hamon is a stepping stone to obtaining a Stand, Hermit Purple while it does have the powers of divination as a main ability, is still Hamon that became a Stand. (Also Petty exists, his main ability was divination too as a Hamon Master so not exactly a discrepency). Is Hamon the same as a Stand? No, but can Hamon become a Stand? Yes, in fact Hamon is implied to have been created for that purpose, opposed to the initially believed counter to Pillar Men. Steel Ball Run .5 chapter extra is the source.

>And arguing that all Hamon-users can harm stands because of Hermit Purple is like arguing plankton can harm stands because of Foo Fighters. In both cases the stand takes a pre-existing thing (Hamon/Plankton) and places it in a stand vessel of sorts that allows it to interact with stands.

False equilavent. Any Plankton with Stand energy could harm a Stand, but not all plankton has that. Every Hamon user can use hamon, hamon can channel through Stands like the world, ergo all hamon users can harm Stands. Apparently, I actually don't really think that's why but it's how we treat it, but I do stand by my point on Hermit Purple being Hamon even if Hamon isn't a Stand. Kinda like how all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Hp is Hamon but Hamon isn't HP.

> Yet would people assume Gold Experience's healing scales to Hamon healing just because their powers have somewhat similar fuctions and visual queues?

Actually yeah, I'd argue that. Why wouldn't they be? Gold Experience uses life energy to do what it does, just on a drastically higher scale than what Hamon can do, but both Hamon and GE uses life energy to perform their feats, same power source just a different utilization. Hamon even has minor GE-esque feats anyway as Hamon can make plant life grow and bring back the dead for small things.

>You claim he literally gains vampire powers from it only to contradict that by saying he needed the mask to be undying/invincible

Yeah? Because he does, he gains vampiric powers when he does his thing, Regenerationn and being undead isn't a power, that's a physiology thing. Manic Depression gives him the abilities of a vampire, it grants him strength beyond that of a human, the reflexes and speed, and powers like biological manip, oganic phasing and even body control like a vampire. What it doesn't do though is make him undead or grant him immortality, he needs the mask for that.

>in which case you'd be admitting he's actually weaker than a fodder vampire

It'd do you good not to jump to conclusions. I could say he got zero powers but still say he's on par with them because that's what the novel is trying to suggest.

>Manic Depression allows a certain degree of control over other people's bodily functions and this is something Volpe can do with his hands, rather than the stand's thorns. We see this when Volpe restore's Vittorio's heart back to normal by thumping his back.

True but also not entirely true, Volpe actually doesn't have full control over what impaling others would do, he can influence it a bit but it's kinda random but usually awful, not to mention jabbing fingers into someone's neck is a super common vampire trope in JoJo, the novel continously draws comparisons between Volpe and vampires, having them act the same, using same descriptive terms, even quoting part 1, it isn't done just because, there's a reason for it and I'm gonna have to say it's because the novel wants the reader to think theyre comparable, especially given the Stone Mask is literally described as freeing the body frm physical limits. As for Volpe doing it himself, no, that's never actually shown, in every example other than that one you mentioned it's always stated or shown that the Stand itself did it, the Volpe case I'm nearly positive is supposed to be just Volpe doing a vagal manneuver on him, not him using his Stand.

> it points out that his finger is healing Sheila's throat just like all the other examples of Manic Depression healing/manipulating people's bodies before the ehancement ever happened.

That's a vampire thing too though? Hell Dio literally made friends with Pucci by healing his permanent foot damage.

 

[LoudCloud]

It's never technically "contradicted" that Aerosmith doesn't have enough power to harm Star Platinum/Gold Experience in the source material, yet we don't scale it to them based on the fight they had in EoH (Aerosmith is still at Wall level). The same for any other stand/character that would get scaled up if we took EoH fights seriously.

If Hamon is a stepping stone for getting a stand then why is there only a single character in the ENTIRE series (debately two with Jonathan) who has Hamon before getting a stand?
Petty's type of divination was completely different to Hermit Purple's. HP's power is technically clairvoyance, not divination, and the two are quite different abilities.
I read that chapter from Part 7 just now and there's really only a SUPER vague claim at the end that says Hamon "can be a step towards achieving the goal of a stand" ("can be", not "is the only way to"). At most, this implies some stands can have a relationship to Hamon or that being a Hamon-user makes developing a stand easier (Hermit Purple being the obvious and only example of this), but this doesn't apply to every single stand and stand-user necessarily. Nor did it claim Hamon was invented to develop stands, which contradicts it being mentioned that it was to take down the Pillar Men.
As for the Plankton thing I could just take what you said and apply it to Hamon. "Any *Hamon-users* with stand-energy can harm a stand, but not all *Hamon-users* have that."
The fact still stands that if Hamon and stands were truly one and the same, then Dio and Vanilla Ice would have been melted by them upon contact, which never happens. Especially with DIO possesing Hermit Purple which you claim is literally made of Hamon.

Either way, we're starting to get off-topic. This conversation wasn't about Hermit Purple. I agree Hermit Purple has a relationship with Hamon (even if it's just conducting it) but other stands never utilise it or have users that utilise it. I simply meant to point out that just because stands have some similarities in powers to Hamon, that doesn't mean we get to powerscale those stands to Hamon-users. The Gold Experience/Hamon thing, for example, is clearly uncomparable. One heals the body by sending sunlight energy into the blood-stream, the other turns inanimate objects into body parts and infuses them to the body to cover up any wounds. It's barely even the same type of power. And while I can agree certain aspects of GE could be references to Hamon, that doesn't mean they scale to each other. They are clearly different powers, with different applications and different sources of power. Just like comparing Vampirism to Manic Depression.

Vampire powers and physiology are pretty much the same. A vampire's powers in JoJo are all related to their physiology, including the boost in power/speed they get. The entire point of the mask is to change the person's physiology in order to grant them powers beyond a human. You seem weirdly selective over what counts as either Vampire "powers" or "physiology" when they are pretty much the same thing and the vampire "powers" you point out is stuff Manic Depression is seen having some control over through-out the novel without needing to enhance Volpe.

It never says Volpe can't control what the stand does, only that the wide range of effects it can have make it seem unpredictable. If Volpe couldn't control it, why in his right mind would he try healing his team-mates with it and risk harming/killing them? Or vice-versa, and end up healing an enemy? Volpe clearly has control over how he heals with his stand at the bare minimum since he always seems to choose the right healing effect for the given scenario. The example of Volpe healing Vittorio is almost guaranteed to be Volpe's stand and not just some random maneuver. We see him do this right before Manic Depression is introduced, it's said how Vittorio's bodily functions return to normal almost automatically the moment Volpe touches him (the use of "bodily functions" is important because that's mentioned a lot in how Volpe's stand works. So is the mention of it removing all pain, since the stand also does that later) and the way he heals him is very similar to how he heals other team-mates when they're struggling. Yeah, there may be a few references to vampirism in Volpe post-enhancement but by that logic we would say Giorno scales to Dio for saying "Wryyyyy" that one time, or that Hamon and the Spin scale to each other because the later is an obvious reference to the former.

 

[Chariot190]

>It's never technically "contradicted" that Aerosmith doesn't have enough power to harm Star Platinum/Gold Experience in the source material, yet we don't scale it to them based on the fight they had in EoH (Aerosmith is still at Wall level). The same for any other stand/character that would get scaled up if we took EoH fights seriously.

False analogy, we have no reason to assume that Aerosmith is on their level given absolutely nothing implies it but also because Aerosmith never harms SP or GE in EOH, if Aerosmith hurt them in story you'd have a point, never does though. Why would you use that as an analogy when SP and GE kicked its ass without breaking a sweat or took any damage. All that would mean is GE and SP are above Aerosmith, which we do indeed know and doesn't contradict anything. You're quote wrong on that front given I just finished playing through the game again, the only character that would get scaled up is Weather Report, literally the only character, every other character gets their face kicked in by Star Platinum with jotaro not even breaking a sweat against any of them except Weather, who he seemed to deem as a nuisance, but again, Weather is basically aleady SP tier, dude could put holes in a character that can put holes through Stone Free.

>As for the Plankton thing I could just take what you said and apply it to Hamon. "Any *Hamon-users* with stand-energy can harm a stand, but not all *Hamon-users* have that."
The fact still stands that if Hamon and stands were truly one and the same, then Dio and Vanilla Ice would have been melted by them upon contact, which never happens. Especially with DIO possesing Hermit Purple which you claim is literally made of Hamon.

You really can't given it'd be a false equilavent. Yes, and Hamon can turn into Stand Energy, Hermit Purple is the embodiment of Hamon the same way Ball Breaker is to the spin. They're both visualizations of Hamon/Spin. Are you going to say Ball Breaker isn't the spin because he's actually a Stand and Spin=/=Stand energy, despite the fact Spin, and Hamon, can eventually embody Stands?

>They are clearly different powers, with different applications and different sources of power.

Is straight upwrong, straight up factually incorrect on the information the manga clearly states. Hamon is life energy, it's created through breathing and the blood but hamon itself is stated to be life energy. GE uses life energy to create organisms and imue others with life, while they can be used in different ways an have different effects it is confirmed that they both use the exact same source of power to perform their feats. If you need an out of universe example, Ki from DBZ can be used to fly, enhance statistics and even shit like skipping time, while those powers are different they all have the same power source. If Hamon uses life energy and GE uses life energy, they both use life energy, there isnt multiple types of life energy, just one, one which they both use.

>I read that chapter from Part 7 just now and there's really only a SUPER vague claim at the end that says Hamon "can be a step towards achieving the goal of a stand" ("can be", not "is the only way to"). At most, this implies some stands can have a relationship to Hamon or that being a Hamon-user makes developing a stand easier (Hermit Purple being the obvious and only example of this)

Uh yes? Nobody said Hamon was the only way to get a Stand, where are you getting this argument from? Nobody said anything like that. All that was said is that Hermit Purple is Hamon embodied, exactly like how Ball Breaker is the spin. All Hamon Users with mastery over Hamon would get Hermit Purple, we know this because of Joseph and Jonathan having the same Stand, that being Hermit Purple, a Stand that is linked directly to Hamon (Joseph even as far back as Part 2 posibly having Hermit Purple according to Araki). As such Hamon and Hermit Purple, a stand, are the same. Not all Stands are Hamon, but Hamon can be Stand if that makes any sense? Clearly you misread somewhere but the point was Hamon is linked to Stands and thus your original Hamon and Stands aren't linked is wrong, given not only does Part 7 say that Hamon is linked to developing a Stand (Obviously not the only way, but it is a method) in the same way the spin is a method, which ultiately ends up with the Stand Ball Breaker if you get one via spin, while with Hamon you get HP.

>Just like comparing Vampirism to Manic Depression.

Well given as said above Hamon and GE both ue the same source for theif feats, not exactly a good point.

>It never says Volpe can't control what the stand does, only that the wide range of effects it can have make it seem unpredictable.

You're right, my bad.


>Yeah, there may be a few references to vampirism in Volpe post-enhancement but by that logic we would say Giorno scales to Dio for saying "Wryyyyy" that one time, or that Hamon and the Spin scale to each other because the later is an obvious reference to the former.

First off, cease with the false analogies, Spin is a reference, but one that isn't meant to be compared, I wouldn;t even call it a reference but rather a replacement for Hamon, but it's something explicitly different, and Giorno saying wry is to showcase his heritage, because mind you, while he doesn't have enhanced superhuman abilities other than usual stand user things, he is still a bit vampire and a bit supernatural going by his sudden hair change to blonde at 15 and Jotaro wanting his DNA sample to see if there's anything supernatural about him. And I wouldn't say few, I'd say nonstop and one like nearly every other page, and even going back to check earlier scenes there's examples even at the start of the novel with Vlad saying things like

"I know you don't see it," Vladimir Kocaqi sighed. "You
could rule the world, you know. With a stand like yours, you could
place yourself above all other men."

Which is also not only how Dio described the Stone Mask back in Part 1, but also how Vlad, the same character and the character who found the stone mask first described the stone mask and what it would do if used. Drawing, again another comparisn to Volpe's boosted form and vampires in stength. Like dude, this isn't just one or two neat callbacks, if it was you'd be right without a doubt but it's like 30 references and comparisons drawing similiarities between Manic Boosted Volpe and a Stone Mask vampire, and it aint even subtle about it.

 

[ShivaShakti]

This is the debate equivalent of a stand clash

 

[Chariot190]

Honestly it doesn't really matter, we're on the same page about the speed at least so that should be done with. EOH shit while interesting doesnt matter a whole lot.

And I'm fine a possibly At least 9-B via scaling to Purple Haze, possibly 9-A/8-C for stone mask shit given yeah it's a bit vague.

Is that a good enough compromise?

 

[LoudCloud]

I'm not gonna argue too much anyway because we at least seem to be on the same page about the profile. There's a few references to Vampirism in Manic Depression's power, but the claim that it would place him above all other men should be analysed by itself instead of insisting it must automatically be comparable to a fodder vampire. Something like "at least 9B (due to scaling to Purple Haze), possibly 9A to 8C (claimed several times to be above human limits which would put him around the same level as Vampires or Hamon-users)" makes the most sense without making too big of an assumption. It would be cool to see a profile for Sheila E too, once that is done.


What you said about GE and Hamon is just outright false though. The two powers are objectively different. One can't do 99% of what the other can.


There's also the matter of Lisa Lisa's profile. According to how we scaled Ultimate Kars (Hamon 100x more powerful than Joseph's), she should be Large Building level (Hamon 3x more powerful than Joseph).

 

[Chariot190]

Even if we disagree if we can come to the same conclusion I'm fine with it, At least 9-B, possibly 9-A to 8-C. Is fine by me.


>What you said about GE and Hamon is just outright false though. The two powers are objectively different. One can't do 99% of what the other can.

The two powers are functionally different, mechanically though? The same, both use the same power source. All Stands se Stand Enrgy but their powers are different are they not? Same thing here, GE and Hamon both explicitly use life energy. It's the same. Unless you're going to argue that there's multiple types of life energy which is unaffounded and based on nothing.

Depends on how strong Joseph is, I'm fine with possibly or likely High 8-C given there's a good chance of it.

It exists.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually scratch that.

He kinda heavily implies here that what he does is on par with the stone mask and explicitly says the only reaso why he needs the stone mask is to bypass that one flaw, that being his version doesn't last long. link.

 

[LoudCloud]

Hmmmm, I suppose that's a good quote to justify it. But if anything, enhanced Volpe being Building level is still a possiblity (due to the quotes about him being beyond human limitations) so "9A, possibly 8C" makes the most sense.

What I meant by the Stand/Hamon thing is that, just because GE and Hamon have similarities, and even if we were to imply they use the same power source, that doesn't mean we can powerscale any regular Hamon-user to GE. The same way two Hamon-users or two Stand-users don't automatically scale just because they use "the same power"; we'd need further evidence that their personal powers are comparable in power level.

The Lisa Lisa thing is weird one. A character profile of her, shown during the chariot fight with Wammu, claims her Hamon is 3 times more powerful than Joseph's. However, later that night (in the fight directly after Wammu's) she gets badly wounded by Kars and Kars gets seriously hurt by Joseph, implying they all scale. To me this could mean two things:

1. Joseph somehow managed to get 3 times stronger in the span of one fight (a few minutes/hours at most).

2. Hamon power isn't directly proportional to physical power, which I've suspected might be true. While knowing Hamon has been shown to boost physical stats (power, speed, durability), that doesn't mean your level of Hamon power gives you a proportionally equal multiplier of stats. If this is the case, then the way we've been scaling Ultimate Kars is wrong (because having 100 times the Hamon power of Joseph wouldn't mean he's 100 times stronger physically).

 

[LoudCloud]

I've collected some evidence that could upgrade some Part 5 character but I might leave that for a seperate post so this thread doesn't get clogged up.

 

[Chariot190]

The Joseph Thing is simple. He used the Ultimate Ripple Overdrive.

He used all of his remaining Hamon and focused it into one attack. Joseph is only that strong with one attack. And said attack leaves him vulnerable for a bit.

 

[LoudCloud]

I thought so too, but even so how would that effect the profiles? It's a pretty big deal to imply that Hamon characters can become 3 times stronger than usual just by using more Hamon. And is it even safe to say the much older and far less hamon-skilled Joseph from part 3 could scale to that level of Hamon output?

 

[Chariot190]

There's a simple fix all term we use.

Just do At least Building level+, possibly Large Building level with Ultimate Hamon Overdrive.

And At least Building level+, possibly Large Building level (Has 3 times as much Hamon power than Joseph).

 

[LoudCloud]

That might be... ok. It's just that if this scales to Part 3 Joseph (which I wouldn't personally say so since he's clearly past his prime), it might effect almost every JoJo profile.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here? You can ask the staff members listed in the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure verse page to comment here.

 

[Chariot190]

He's clearly past his prime, he's not a fuckton weaker though but he's defintely not pulling out an ultimate attack that he could only do that completely exhausted all his Hamon and made him defenceless against even fodder.

 

[Antvasima]

Has anybody asked all of the staff members listed in the link yet?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/JoJo's_Bizarre_Adventure#Supporters.2FOpponents.2FNeutral

 

[Chariot190]

>all the staff members

That's kinda bit much for something pretty much resolved is not? I could hit up a few but every single one is overkill.

Pretty sure the only changes being suggested here atm are give Lisa Lisa a possibly rating due to being 3x more powerful than Joseph Joestar (Statement here) and give Joseph a possibly rating but only for one specific attack he can only use once before he becomes defenseless (it takes all his energy to do it, once used he has no more energy to attack or defend with for awhile). There's no actual tier changes going on for Joseph and Lisa Lisa, it's just a specific attack and a 8-C, possibly High 8-C for being 3x stronger.

And changing Volpe from flatout 8-C to At least 9-B, possibly 8-C instead due to some vagueness surrounding his scaling, which is fair I guess? But I'll hit up a few if need be.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems fairly uncontroversial to apply then, as long as you have all reached an agreement.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not OP so I don't wanna speak for him so should wait a bit to see if that's all here.

Should probably contact a admin for that other thread though, that changes a lot more profiles, even if said changes are ultimately legit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[LoudCloud]

Yeah, I'm ok with those changes. Sorta...

Joseph's Ultimate Ripple attack is presented as its own thing, sepperate from Joseph's usual level of power, but that could mean base Kars scales to it (he survived a few moments after getting hit, and while he was about to die this was because he was impaled by spikes afterwards).

Volpe is cool with me but if anything I'd say "At least 9B, possibly 8C to 8B", since being beyond human limits could theoretically scale to Hamon users like Jonathan (8B) as they're still technically human.

 

[Chariot190]

idk about that, Joseph Ultimate Overdrive straight up blew up Kars' bone blade, shattered it completely. I'm fine with backscaling even if the target takes damage but it has to be minor damage or quantifiable, Kars' blade got snapped clean in two and fragmented, idk how you scale that.

There is no 8-B tho. It'd just be At least 9-B, possibly At least 8-C+ If we scale off humans like Joseph and Jonathan.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached an agreement about what should be applied here?

 

[Chariot190]

I think, generally.

Change Volpe and those that scale to At least Wall level, possibly Building level.

Wall level because there's like three calcs for that and building off of potential scaling to Joseph/Jonathan/Vampires.

Give Lisa Lisa At least Building level, possibly Large Building level because she's 3x that of Joseph.

Give Joseph's ultimate attack a tier of Possibly Large Building (Although we'd have to add a bit to his weakness section mentioning it drains him for at least a few minutes and leaves him vulnerable after it)..