Power Stars Low 2-C Upgrade

[Starsprite53]

This thread will explain why Power Stars are Low 2-C (thanks to datonedweeb btw) and please read all of the thread

First we have this:
- "Without a second thought, Mario jumps at the painting. As he is drawn into it, another world opens before his very eyes."

We all know that bowser created worlds within paintings and walls.
Now, when you're usually saying "another" something, you are comparing it to something similar.
So Mario's world and the painting worlds are similar in size and so on
But the definition of world can depend on the context, it can mean mean many things.But in fact,
we can visually see a sun in the sky, already proving it's much larger than a planet or a country.
And as stated by wiggler there are stars at night.

- "I don't really need it anymore, anyway-- I can see the stars through my ceiling at night."

Once again proving that the term world does not simply mean planet here. However, there is more evidence as to how the word "world" means universe in context, and I will get to that.

- "Bowser stole the Power Stars that protected the castle and hid them away in magical painting worlds."

- "It is assumed that Bowser, with the power of the Stars at his disposal, intends to extend his reach over the real world."

- "One school of thought believes that Bowser will turn Peach and her entourage into a sort of zombie army, then let them lose on our world."
- "A competing theory suggests that Bowser will simply extend his painting worlds so that they encompass all of reality."


As we see, They're keeping referring to the paintings as "worlds". Now when they talk about Mario's world, let's look at the terms. "The real world", "our world", and "all of reality". All of these are used as synonyms for the general term "world".

As stated by the universe standards, I quote:

- "If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes."

The term real world can mean universe, so that is another plus to the term world being universe. Additionally "all of reality" would 100% have to refer to as universe. So this means they do refer to the word "world" as universe, and that is what they keep calling Bowser's paintings. Thus the term "another world" in 64 means another universe. However this isn't all of my evidence either.

- "When Mario, who received a letter from Princess Peach, arrived at the castle, it was strangely quiet. As he went inside the castle, Bowser's laughter echoed out of nowhere. Thus begins an adventure to save Princess Peach on worldwide levels inside the paintings. A 3D action game of the Super Mario series released at the same time as the NINTENDO 64 console. The introduction of the analog Control Stick set a new standard for later games in the series."

According to the official Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries, the term "worldwide" can also mean universal. Used as supporting evidence.

- "Three well-timed Pound-the-Ground stomps will put Big Boo back in his extra-dimensional place."

Big Boo was stated to come from an extra-dimensional place, which would be Big Boo's Haunt as that is where the battle takes place. The term "extra-dimensional" would also mean universe at least.

- "If you sink with your head, you won't be able to breath. The black places are very dangerous!! They are infinite underworlds!"

So in Shifting Sand Land, that world is stated to be infinite in size, which can indeed support or even outright mean universe. There's also another mention for it.

- "The clock tower has no bottom: that's the pits. And the pendulums swing back and forth, threating to knock Mario into the endless abyss."

A synonym for the word "infinite" is used again. Tick Tock Clock was stated to have no bottom and has an endless abyss. Going back to the universe standards:

- "If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes."

With all of this in mind, this should be enough evidence that these worlds are universes since they're consistently described infinite in size. However, one last argument I can add is that each world runs on separate time.

Going back to what Wiggler stated, he says he can see the stars at night. This means a day and night cycle exists, meaning there is a passage of time. This is also supported by the Hoot.

- "Whooo's there? Whooo woke me up? It's still daylight-- I should be sleeping!"

This means there is indeed a passage of time in these worlds. Now, we know their flow of time runs differently due to the background. It is daytime at the Mushroom Kingdom and in some levels. However, certain stages such as Big Boo's Haunt, Mario World (yes that is the name), and Wet Dry World have each displayed a different time of day.

So we know that these paintings are referred to as different worlds, be extra-dimensional, infinite in size, and have their own flow of time. Sounds like Low 2-C.
Thus Power Stars are capable of creating universes, with only one being needed. This is because each special world, Bowser world, secret world, or Mario/Luigi/Wario world only has a single Power Star within.

Oh and btw, most of these scans relied on an official and approved guide, which we objectively allow on the wiki.

"Nintendo Power is a video game news and strategy podcast from nintendo of America, which had originated in August 1988 as Nintendo's official print magazine for North America. The magazine's publication was initially done monthly by Nintendo of America"

And it doesn't matter if it's from nintendo of America,cuz in fact
Peach's name was Japan only before. Here, she was called Toadstool. Both versions however use both names.
Bowser's name was American only. In Japan, he was called Koopa. Now both names can be used.
Pauline (aka the American name) was originally named the lady/beautiful girl in Japan but yet the Japanese versions of recent mario sports games use her American name
Heck SMB2 is literally an american made game that nintendo fully accepts apart of the continuity.

That's all, please be civil uwu.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Bro we already have a Low 2-C CRT

 

[Starsprite53]

Bro we already have a Low 2-C CRT

This is about power stars only, we will discuss scaling it to the base cast later

 

[deonment]

maybe we should, you know first make a crt that deals with the idea that the English guides arent canon, since this uses material from them

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bro we already have a Low 2-C CRT

This thread covers a topic my thread won’t be touching, so it existing should be fine

 

[Starsprite53]

maybe we should, you know first make a crt that deals with the idea that the English guides arent canon, since this uses material from them

I think this is unnecessary

 

[deonment]

I think this is unnecessary

i think it woul be because there are people who will solely disagree with this based on the facts that the guides aren't treated as canon

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I should mention that we use English guides for other games like TLoZ or Pokémon, so all of this should be fine.

 

[deonment]

but excluding my opinion about a crt needing to be made so that people wont just automatically dismiss this, i agree

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I feel like the existence of 2 Low 2-C Mario threads is still gonna be a bit of a juggle so this might not get the attention you'd want.

With all that said though, very nice job. The only argument against it I can even think of would be mostly "canon" arguments or just semantics like picking on the supporting evidence which is supposed to be not as strong as the main thing it's supporting.

Tick Tock Clock alone was used for ages but since it was only the one world and bottomless pits exist in many other places and verses, it was dismissed. But with the inclusion of Shifting Sand Land I think they were being literal and both now back each other up with similar descriptions, therefore also weakening the hyperbole argument.

 

[sanicspood]

followojh

 

[Starsprite53]

I feel like the existence of 2 Low 2-C Mario threads is still gonna be a bit of a juggle so this might not get the attention you'd want.

With all that said though, very nice job. The only argument against it I can even think of would be mostly "canon" arguments or just semantics like picking on the supporting evidence which is supposed to be not as strong as the main thing it's supporting.

Tick Tock Clock alone was used for ages but since it was only the one world and bottomless pits exist in many other places and verses, it was dismissed. But with the inclusion of Shifting Sand Land I think they were being literal and both now back each other up with similar descriptions, therefore also weakening the hyperbole argument.

Thank you, let's see how far this thread will go

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bump

 

[LuckyEmile]

Most of these arguments seem fine, it paints a good picture of the premise. It works well with the universe standards of the wiki in my opinion, as the CRT suggested. So I think the conclusion of Low 2-C rating is fine to pass.

However, I do have some things I disagree with:

According to the official Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries, the term "worldwide" can also mean universal. Used as supporting evidence.

This point doesn't sit well with me. It's only side-evidence to support the claim, so shouldn't matter too much, but I feel pulling out a thesaurus is a bit awkward for VS debating, especially here. The term universal doesn't really tend to refer to a universe, especially in this context, as it's more of like "A universal trait of Mario's SMB sprites is he has a hat" (i.e. all his sprites feature a hat, nothing to do with a universe) or, say if somehow everyone on the wiki agrees with this thread, we'd say "This feat is universally agreed upon as being Low 2-C on VS Battles Wiki" (which is just referring to the wiki's userbase, it doesn't actually reflect upon our universe). So, this is an awkward point for me.

- "Three well-timed Pound-the-Ground stomps will put Big Boo back in his extra-dimensional place."

Big Boo was stated to come from an extra-dimensional place, which would be Big Boo's Haunt as that is where the battle takes place. The term "extra-dimensional" would also mean universe at least.

This is really just saying to put someone in their place, as in to teach them a lesson. Since Big Boo is a boss, they're saying it will basically show him not to mess with Mario, he's not actually being relocated elsewhere by Mario's ground pounds (especially as this argument is being presented Mario taking Big Boo to Big Boo's Haunt, which is where he already is anyway). The extra-dimensional stuff is basically saying Big Boo himself is extra-dimensional, since he's a ghost and all. Sure, I guess this implies the Power Stars can create extra-dimensional beings, but the way this argument is being presented seems to be saying something else which is just swaying what was being said in an awkward way that context alone would disprove.

This means there is indeed a passage of time in these worlds. Now, we know their flow of time runs differently due to the background. It is daytime at the Mushroom Kingdom and in some levels. However, certain stages such as Big Boo's Haunt, Mario World (yes that is the name), and Wet Dry World have each displayed a different time of day.

Not too big a fan of this argument. Big Boo's Haunt could be a night, it's mostly theories that say otherwise, but Mario World just seems foggy and Wet Dry World's scan outright shows the sun is up, ergo it's daytime, it's just dark since the skybox is underwater. With that said, it doesn't really detract from the point, it's kind of clear time flows separately in these worlds (the other points prove this well), and Mario World's weather being different just adds further proof to this idea.

So other than these nitpicks, which only really target supporting arguments and not the actual crux of the CRT, I'd say I agree with this on the whole. Good research on the end of you, Blaze, and anyone else who assisted!

 

[Starsprite53]

This point doesn't sit well with me. It's only side-evidence to support the claim, so shouldn't matter too much, but I feel pulling out a thesaurus is a bit awkward for VS debating, especially here. The term universal doesn't really tend to refer to a universe, especially in this context, as it's more of like "A universal trait of Mario's SMB sprites is he has a hat" (i.e. all his sprites feature a hat, nothing to do with a universe) or, say if somehow everyone on the wiki agrees with this thread, we'd say "This feat is universally agreed upon as being Low 2-C on VS Battles Wiki" (which is just referring to the wiki's userbase, it doesn't actually reflect upon our universe). So, this is an awkward point for me.

I kinda agree with you on that, but the problem that the scan says worldwide + levels, basically talking about the size of the levels.

This is really just saying to put someone in their place, as in to teach them a lesson. Since Big Boo is a boss, they're saying it will basically show him not to mess with Mario, he's not actually being relocated elsewhere by Mario's ground pounds (especially as this argument is being presented Mario taking Big Boo to Big Boo's Haunt, which is where he already is anyway). The extra-dimensional stuff is basically saying Big Boo himself is extra-dimensional, since he's a ghost and all. Sure, I guess this implies the Power Stars can create extra-dimensional beings, but the way this argument is being presented seems to be saying something else which is just swaying what was being said in an awkward way that context alone would disprove.

Ok this is a pretty weird assumption tbh, idk why would "extra dimensional" refers to punishment or something, and saying he is extra dimensional because he is a ghost is....weirder?

 

[Starsprite53]

So other than these nitpicks, which only really target supporting arguments and not the actual crux of the CRT, I'd say I agree with this on the whole. Good research on the end of you, Blaze, and anyone else who assisted!

Thank you (most thanks to Blaze and zewo)

 

[LuckyEmile]

I kinda agree with you on that, but the problem that the scan says worldwide + levels, basically talking about the size of the levels.

This is why I think pulling up a thesaurus is a bad idea. It doesn't think about context, it just says everything worldwide might mean. So in the context of the guide(?) this quote comes from, yes it's referring to the levels, but the thesaurus has a completely different context and probably isn't thinking about video game level. Hence why my issue with this is it's saying it like "A universal opinion would be something agreed upon worldwide", so it just doesn't apply to the context of this Mario quote. Synonyms don't always work interchangeably and this is an example of when it doesn't.

Ok this is a pretty weird assumption tbh, idk why would "extra dimensional" refers to punishment or something, and saying he is extra dimensional because he is a ghost is....weirder?

I don't see what's weird about a ghost being extra-dimensional, they're very often seen as being unbound by physics and all, being able to go through walls and whatnot. Even E. Gadd is baffled by how ghosts work from a scientific standpoint, so even by the standards of the Mario universe, they're weird beings. And since they can't be killed, it just further backs up this idea. As for why they'd even mention it, it's really just adding some fun flavour (it's not referring to the punishment, just Big Boo). You can freely add adjectives referring to who you're talking about in these sort of sayings, you get that quite a lot in Mario for some reason. And we already know it does use the saying "put them in their place" from the context anyway, so it's not really even an assumption and more just how it is.

 

[Starsprite53]

This is why I think pulling up a thesaurus is a bad idea. It doesn't think about context, it just says everything worldwide might mean. So in the context of the guide(?) this quote comes from, yes it's referring to the levels, but the thesaurus has a completely different context and probably isn't thinking about video game level. Hence why my issue with this is it's saying it like "A universal opinion would be something agreed upon worldwide", so it just doesn't apply to the context of this Mario quote. Synonyms don't always work interchangeably and this is an example of when it doesn't.

So what do you think "worldwide levels" means?

, they're very often seen as being unbound by physics and all, being able to go through walls and whatnot. Even E. Gadd is baffled by how ghosts work from a scientific standpoint.so even by the standards of the Mario universe. they're weird beings. And since they can't be killed, it just further backs up this idea

Maybe because they're obviously.....ghosts

As for why they'd even mention it, it's really just adding some fun flavour (it's not referring to the punishment, just Big Boo). You can freely add adjectives referring to who you're talking about in these sort of sayings, you get that quite a lot in Mario for some reason. And we already know it does use the saying "put them in their place" from the context anyway, so it's not really even an assumption and more just how it is.

Amm, why would "extra-dimensional" add a fun flavour?

 

[LuckyEmile]

So what do you think "worldwide levels" means?

Considering the original scan was Japanese, using a thesaurus on the translation seems like it distorts the original meaning even further at this point. It's hard to interpret what it might mean since the provided translation is someone's interpretation of a Japanese text, so not entirely sure what it would mean without seeing the specific kanji it's translated from and such... but as a guess, it's probably talking about how varied the levels are, giving an immersive sense of world building. It doesn't seem like it would be something talking about the size of the worlds if it's just talking about the game itself though, in my opinion.

(EDIT: After looking closely at the scan, it seems to just be saying "the worlds inside the paintings" (絵画の中の世界)/"set in the worlds inside the paintings" (絵画の中の世界を舞台), so guess it's just saying the levels are inside the paintings).

Maybe because they're obviously.....ghosts

Yeah, basically I don't see anything weird about him being described as such since he's a ghost, seems pretty fitting.

Amm, why would "extra-dimensional" add a fun flavour?

Basically the saying "put them in their place" is flexible enough that Bowser would want to put Mario in his "mushroom-munching place"/"moustachioed place" or K Rool would want to put Donkey Kong in his "banana-loving place" (sorry, I'm sure there are better examples for this, but I'm just coming up with ideas on the spot to put the point across). Basically, you can just add an adjective relating to who you're talking about to these sort of things, kind of like how Kamek will say "your nastiness", "you're hungriness" and such in reference to Bowser as opposed to just outright saying his name (not a 1:1, but you get the idea). So you're not actually sending them to some place that the adjective reflects, you're just teaching them a lesson and tailoring the saying to them, which basically adds "fun flavour" to the saying. And I guess just to make sure the point is put across, even if it was relocating Big Boo somewhere, it wouldn't be Big Boo's Haunt, since he's already there, so the statement couldn't even be applied to the place. But I just don't think that's the case, since everything points to it being the famed saying. (It kind of reminds me of that one CRT where they took the statement "No one dreams bigger than Mario" to mean Mario's dreams are physically the biggest dream realms, instead of taking it at face value for the saying that means he's very imaginative).

 

[Jared1111]

I agree with Emile about the “worldwide” statement being taken too literally in that context, otherwise I agree with this upgrade.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To be fair I think I've seen ghosts and the like be called extra-dimensional because a spirit realm is believed which is a realm that we can't interact with.

 

[Starsprite53]

These are two completely different cases
ghosts aren't new things in Mario franchise even before 64,
Being a ghost = extra-dimensional is completely flawed because not having a corporeal body just doesn't make you related to some dimensionality things
If you're higher-dimensional, your existence completely encompasses lower dimensions and you are more than infinitely larger than lower-dimensional realms via sheer size.(not sure about that)
Not having a physical body doesn't grant you that.
If Big Boo is extra-dimensional, he has that physiology for the statement in the guidebook, not because he is a non-corporeal ghost.

 

[GyroNutz]

Extra-dimensional can also mean a being that originates from outside the known universe. In this case, like Fox1000 said, it likely refers to King Boo originating from a spirit world.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This was all already brought up in past threads and using Nintendo Power wasn't accepted. This thread adds nothing new to the discussion.

 

[Starsprite53]

This was all already brought up in past threads and using Nintendo Power wasn't accepted. This thread adds nothing new to the discussion.

And why?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And why?

Because Super Mario Bros is a Japanese Game and Nintendo Power is an American Magazine most frequently written by people who are hired by Nintendo of America but who are not - in fact - actually working on the company. It's an advertisement magazine and it was often innacurate in news and reports.

Secondly because Mario is a Japanaese Game and specially a Japanese Game from the 90s, the script between the American and Japanese releases are bound to be different - wildly so in some cases, which was confirmed in past threads when people compared the dialogue from an in-game scene and found out it was completely different and that a feat they were citing simply didn't exist in the Japanese version.

 

[Starsprite53]

Nothing in the guide contradict the game itsef and again

And it doesn't matter if it's from nintendo of America,cuz in fact
Peach's name was Japan only before. Here, she was called Toadstool. Both versions however use both names.
Bowser's name was American only. In Japan, he was called Koopa. Now both names can be used.
Pauline (aka the American name) was originally named the lady/beautiful girl in Japan but yet the Japanese versions of recent mario sports games use her American name
Heck SMB2 is literally an american made game that nintendo fully accepts apart of the continuity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nothing in the guide contradict the game itsef and again

Your post is pure whataboutism. You're talking about character names to reflect international marketing and brand recognition. It has nothing to do with in-game dialogue being altered to change the story.

 

[Starsprite53]

Changing the character name based on American doing still counts, what about the existence of smb2

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Changing the character name based on American doing still counts, what about the existence of smb2

SMB2 was released later in Japan as SMB USA and it is still released there with that title. It's a unique case as they reutilize an existing game's general plot and sprites to make a new Mario Game and it's not the same as changing the story inside an original game.

 

[Starsprite53]

This still means they accept things from America, again what are the contradictions?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I already explained them if you can't see them then I'm afraid it's a problem with your reading.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Not gonna get too involved here since I'm not too invested on the topic anymore, but I thought using Nintendo Power and other official english Nintendo stuff was fine? We still use Nintendo Power for Majora having space-time corruption (Even if we don't use it for his AP anymore) and recently we used the official english Zelda website for universal Wind Fish and all that scale to him.

Please don't let me bringing this up make universal Zelda get nuked.

 

[Starsprite53]

I already explained them if you can't see them then I'm afraid it's a problem with your reading.

Ok then

They used the kanji "世界" which means world/universe
And "別の" which means another

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Sorry Matt, we allow English guides for Japanese media. Sonic, The Legend of Zelda, Bleach (lol), etc etc. In general we use English text for a loooooot of Japanese media. This would have to be a wiki-site thread, not a Mario only. They're 100% accepted, no idea where you're getting this.

 

[Starsprite53]

Sorry Matt, we allow English guides for Japanese media. Sonic, The Legend of Zelda, Bleach (lol), etc etc. In general we use English text for a loooooot of Japanese media. This would have to be a wiki-site thread, not a Mario only. They're 100% accepted, no idea where you're getting this.

Espacially since this guide doesn't contradict anything in this game, it's more like this case is supplementary, not contradictory.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Wind Fish from TLoZ uses English stuff, Sonic does too, and I know for damn sure Pokemon does too. So... what's the issue?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sorry Matt, we allow English guides for Japanese media. Sonic, The Legend of Zelda, Bleach (lol), etc etc. In general we use English text for a loooooot of Japanese media. This would have to be a wiki-site thread, not a Mario only. They're 100% accepted, no idea where you're getting this.

False equivalencies, those are translated versions of Japanese Guides not something made up here.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Like the other Mario thread, I agree with the OPs proposals

 

[Starsprite53]

False equivalencies, those are translated versions of Japanese Guides not something made up here.

Ok then

They used the kanji "世界" which means world/universe
And "別の" which means another

Ok