Pre-mending Oldwalkers possible upgrade?

[Jokaz]

If I remember correctly, The Three managed to seal the of the Eldrazi Titans on Zendikar, stopping them from destroying planes and puting them on an eternal slumber (until Nissa came...) with the help of the Eye of Ugin.

Can this feat be a valid reason to add "High 2-A with prep" to The (pre-mending) Three's tier (and possibly pre-mending Nicol Bolas as well due to having comparable power and knowledge)? Or what they sealed wasn't really the High 2-A Eldrazi?


The Three

 

[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

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[Jokaz]

Bump

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

If you wish you can look up the names of people who know about the verse you are trying to revise in the Knowledgeable Members List and send them a message so they can look at this thread.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Wow, never thought I would beat Azzy to a thread.

Uhh, possibly? I don't see an issue.

Albeit this is with the caveat it was stated Ugin couldn't just 'reseal' the eldrazi. He did it with Nahiri and Sorin who both combined their magic and user the plane of Zendikar to seal them.

Honestly, our magic pages for anyone but Nicol Bolas are kinda vague.

You got my support with 'Possibly High 2-A with Preptime'

Ask Azazoth to comment here, he knows more then me and can probably fact check what I said.

Edit: Also wanna add that I cant remember if they sealed their true forms or just their 'shadows'

 

[Antvasima]

You can contact him here: Message Wall:Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

 

[Jokaz]

Thanks guys. Also sorry for the late reply Julian, I was kinda busy.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

I'm not sure of this. While yes the 3 technically did stop both the 3rd dimensional shadows and the higher dimensional forms from affecting the multiverse, it is never stated if it actually did affect the higher dimensional forms, and given that their higher dimensional forms are infinitely more powerful, I have little to no doubt saying they weren't.

Course that's just my interpatation.

 

[Jokaz]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Have you asked Azathoth for input?

 

[Jokaz]

I have, no answer yet. Should I give it more time or should I ask again?

 

[Antvasima]

You can politely ask again if you wish.

 

[Jokaz]

Okay, I did it again. Just letting you know.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not sure. Ugin gave some kind of analogy using a lake (the multiverse), a man standing above it (the true Eldrazi), and the man's hand (the Eldrazi's shadows). They effectively drove a stake through the man's hand, which stopped him from just getting up and leaving, but didn't directly affect the man on the surface.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

If that's the case, then they would only be sealing the 3 dimensional shadows as if they did seal the true eldrazi then they would've drove the stake through the man's back.

 

[Jokaz]

So you mean that by sealing the 3-D forms they didn't affect nor hurt the higher ones, just stop them in one place, right?

Something similar to Ten Shin Han vs 2nd form Cell: Cell just felt the Tri-Beam like a really strong wind that only pushed him back.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

It indicates that as such yes.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Not sure. Ugin gave some kind of analogy using a lake (the multiverse), a man standing above it (the true Eldrazi), and the man's hand (the Eldrazi's shadows). They effectively drove a stake through the man's hand, which stopped him from just getting up and leaving, but didn't directly affect the man on the surface.

Partly my issue as well but it is worth nothing that it is likely the laylines of Zendikar that sealed the Eldrazi and their shadows And they never terrorized the multiverse again until Chandra and Jace came along and broke them from their prison.

Their true forms are High 2-A, and their shadows are at least 2-A for being immensely above most planes-walkers, but their shadows were likely not sealed on the plane of Zendikar.

I hate this argument, but for all intensive purposes they never threatened the multiverse again, if it was just their shadows sealed, they could simply just went on else where in the multiverse, especially since they can travel through the Blind Eternites like it is no issue. If their hands were sealed, this is a moot point but I think it is more of their bodies being sealed, otherwise they could have left....maybe... probably?

I am fine with Possibly High 2-A with Prep. It is not quite enough evidence to put them concretely that tier, but I do think there is an argument to favor at least this.

Or at least Higher with prep.


Basically pick one, but even then iirc Zendikar was a special case, no normal plane in the mtg multiverse could have sealed the Eldrazi as well as Zendikar did considering how strong the mana was for the plane, so not sure if this feat is replicable in normal circumstances.

Edit: Also, considering Ugin was the leader of the 3 and he was the one who devised the plan and is aware of the Eldrazi's existence and explained it to Jace, it does provide some credence to him being able to seal their true forms. If he knew absolutely nothing about them, sure it could just be their shadows But we know the Eldrazi are higher dimensional because of Ugin, I doubt he would have gathered two planeswalker with conflicting ideologies and just seal their shadows. Not saying he could or cant, but Ugin being aware of their existence and how they does lead to me to be inclined to believe he developed the plan with this in mind, and not their shadows. Although this could be a reach.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

@Sins

Despite the possible multiple contradictions this brings up, given that said contradictions are only a possiblity and your claims do have some legitamacy, I'll agree with this if this is what is chosen.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure either based on what has been said above. Lower-dimensional shadows can be several tiers below the true entities.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I am not sure either based on what has been said above. Lower-dimensional shadows can be several tiers below the true entities.

Well, we know the eldrazi are higher dimensional and thats it. It could be 5th or infinite. Right now iirc they are are at least High 2-A. But yes you are correct,

I think Azzy deciding is fair. I am not going to push this too much, we dont have too much evidence here unfortunately, just speculation.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, if it is impossible to determine their tiers, it may be best to avoid featuring profiles for them.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Yes, if it is impossible to determine their tiers, it may be best to avoid featuring profiles for them.

For the eldrazi? We already have profiles for them. Same with the three above. I do think a good compromise (for now) is to rate them higher with prep time I dont think dismissing the feat entirely is a good idea imo, but the Eldrazi are new to the magic lore comparitively speaking. Its still a big feat for the three, so I think it merits this.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that any profiles with statistics that are impossible to determine without guesswork, might be better to delete.

 

[Jokaz]

Well, we know the eldrazi are higher dimensional and thats it. It could be 5th or infinite.

Speaking of 5-D Eldrazi, people in other sites say that they are only 4-D, and that the Blind Eternities are the 4th Dimension.

Can someone clarify this to me? It's kinda confusing.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Well, we know the eldrazi are higher dimensional and thats it. It could be 5th or infinite.

Speaking of 5-D Eldrazi, people in other sites say that they are only 4-D, and that the Blind Eternities are the 4th Dimension.
Can someone clarify this to me? It's kinda confusing.

I am not sure? I mean, 4-D is usually time in dimensional physics, so if the imply they are only 4-D, then that means they are either

A. Using a different theory on higher dimensions (more likely, but still would be High 2-A in our system)

B. Suggesting they only are at best 2-A, which makes no sense.


@Ant

I am neutral. I am fine with the pages being deleted by Azzy if he should comment again considering alot has been said.

 

[Antvasima]

It probably refers to being spatially 4-D, with an extra dimension of time added.

 

[Antvasima]

However, we need some proof for this claim.

 

[Serpent_of_the_Internet_97]

The MTG multiverse on its own contains several characters that are multiversal+ and can influence the space-time contiunium with ease. The true forms of the eldrazi are stated to be higher dimensional to even these characters as they are part of the multiverse, thus making them at least High 2-A.

The only thing thing that's geusswork in terms of this if they are just 5-D or 11D because it was never stated how far higher up are they, which is why it lists the true forms as "Unknown, At least High 2-A" as we know and can confirm they are at least "High 2-A", while leaving up the possiblity they could be "High 1-C"

Makes sense to me.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

• Ugin speaking about the Eldrazi as we see them just being projections cast down by their true forms, which are incomprehensible.

""The Eldrazi titans do not dwell in physical space," said Ugin. "They are creatures of the Blind Eternities, and it is in the Eternities that they remain."

"Until they manifest physically, you mean?"

"No," said Ugin. "I meant what I said. Ulamog remains in the Eternities."

"Then what did I see heading toward Sea Gate?"

"You saw a portion of him," said Ugin. "A projection. Imagine that you reach your hand into a pond. The fish below the surface sees a five-headed monster, and cannot perceive the man attached to it. It mistakes a hangnail for an eye because the truth is beyond its imagining. You see?"

"And when you trapped them . . ."

"Like driving a spike through the hand," said Ugin. "The man will not die, but neither will he trouble other ponds. 'Killing' Ulamog's physical form would be like cutting off the hand. The man might be diminished, but he would survive—and he would be freed."" - Revelation at the Eye

Pond = the multiverse

Above the pond's surface = a greater reality

Ulamog = the man

"Ulamog" in Zendikar = the man's hand

Ugin and Jace = the fish

For reference, Ugi used to be comparable to this guy before the Mending, which is when he did most of his study on the Eldrazi.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

So what are your conclusions about their statistics?

It might be relevant to note that an actual hand was mentioned, not just the reflection cast on the pond, which would likely be a better analogue for a lower-dimensional shadow.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

It would fit better with everything else Ugin says, but he needed something to use the "spike" analogy on, and a reflection wouldn't really work for that. At least he tries to rectify it later by talking about the "man" just regenerating so as it doesn't seem like killing these manifestations actually cripples the Eldrazi.

I think they're probably fine where they are.

 

[KinkiestSins]

If Azzy is fine with it, I am fine with it.

I might bring this up in a magic crt down the line, but I dont see an issue currently.