Problems with Kriemhild Gretchen.

[The_real_cal_howard]

She has no showings of nigh-omniscience. Apparently, it comes from having parts of Madoka's memories, but that means nothing. Also, being behind the scenes for the wraith arc doesn't mean much. Is there any showings of her being intelligent at all? Most other witches don't show intellect, and I don't see anything justifying it.

 

[Kaltias]

? Behind the scenes of the WA is simply because you claimed that she is mindless when she clearly isn't. It wasn't related to nigh-omniscience.

It also comes from the fact that Madoka's nigh-omniscience is a byproduct of her omnipresence and UKG is possibly omnipresent when unsealed.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

First mindhax, now this?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Omnipresence, even across spacetime, doesn't guarantee nigh omniscience, ever. Take Infinite Zamasu, who lost intelligence upon becoming spatiotemporally omnipresent.

 

[RKGenki]

Except that it does when she literally says that she knows and has seen everything, including all past, present and future possibilities, of the entire multiverse?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

When does she even speak, let alone say that?

 

[Kaltias]

It's during her convo with Homura.

I'll give scans tomorrow.

 

[RKGenki]

It scales from Madoka, and saying "most witches don't show intellect" is not completely true when

1- UKG talks to Homura in the wraith arc

2- Homulilly explicitly shows having Homura's intelligence

3- looking at witches' cards, they actually show how witches can have some form of intellect or personality, with some that don't even want to attack anyone if left alone (iirc this one was charlotte)

 

[The_Everlasting]

Infinite Zamasu is not at all a comparable example, since he explicitly went insane.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It scales from Madoka, and saying "most witches don't show intellect" is not completely true when

1- UKG talks to Homura in the wraith arc

2- Homulilly explicitly shows having Homura's intelligence

3- looking at witches' cards, they actually show how witches can have some form of intellect or personality, with some that don't even want to attack anyone if left alone (iirc this one was charlotte)

1 and 2, fair enough. 3, having a personality doesn't mean that they have human level intellect. Dogs have personality.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, why on earth does UKG have Ultimate Madoka's stuff? It's not a clone. It's a separate being. Just because the thing is a result of an equal and opposite reaction doesn't mean it should have her abilities. Heck, it's not even equal at first, because during its inception, it was 5-B to her 2-A, and only reached her level through time.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Did you read the thread in which added it?

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1519555?useskin=oasis

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't have time to read all of the thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, things that I've gathered.

UKG being the despair of all witches: Clear contradiction to what we see ON SCREEN, where she has nothing to do with any magical girl except Madoka. Death of the author comes into play here, and that's the best case scenario. Worst case is flowery language.

Resistance to basically all of Ultimate Madoka's stuff: Tbh, and while I love Kal and SD, this is laughable, and a mockery of the site, in the fact that we need showings. Also, CIS is a thing.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Probably should ask Azzy to comment.

 

[RKGenki]

Last thing before going to sleep, about witches' intellect

"The witch of rooftops. Her nature is reverie. A witch who indulges in fantasies of "if only this, if only that," on a rooftop embraced by blue skies. She sleepily whiles the days away, thinking only of things that will never come true, spending her time in supreme bliss. Her minions have tied down one of her legs so that she doesn't drift right off the roof and go missing, and have locked the rooftop door to confine her there. However, since the witch prefers to stay on the rooftop anyway, she doesn't seem to mind. She doesn't take an active fighting role, but will still attack those who interrupt her reverie. Incidentally, the face depicted on her giant cameo brooch is said to have nothing to do with her"


Will answer the rest tomorrow (and you should wait Kal or SD before going on with this thread if you want to be fair to them)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You've proven that there are witches that do have intellect. Homulily, this one, and admittedly Kriemhild Gretchen, have intellect, and probably many others. However, this still doesn't prove UKG's nigh omniscience, or having anything above at best genius intellect.

Also, I will wait. I'm not that RWBY thread ovo. Heck, even if I wind up being right, I'm probably not going to be the one to edit in the edits.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dragon. Question. I promise this is related. Didn't you and Ex agree that Zeed's resistances to God's haxes should be removed, because none of that was shown at all? This scenario is no different. Like, it's literally the same scenario, with the entrapment to a dark area included.

 

[The_Everlasting]

They were removed because we don't know if Zeed actually fought God, IIRC.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

No we removed the resistances as it was never confirmed that he fought God nor whether it was a close match or not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No we removed the resistances as it was never confirmed that he fought God nor whether it was a close match or not.

That latter part still applies here.

What I'm trying to say, there's literally zero evidence of Ultimate Madoka using even one percent of her abilities on UKG. And that's not an exaggeration. At least, I don't think it is.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Madoka sole existence is to kill UKG, why would she holding back?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because this and this exist.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It depends on the character of the character one is fighting.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This site runs on evidence. UKG having those resistances is a mockery of that. It's not even a fair assumption to make. I could make a better case of say, Mew having the abilities of all non-Legendary Pokemon, but I don't, because there's little evidence for it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Oh boy we doing the "X fought Y so X must resists Y's hax". I already said that I disagree with this in most circumstances, but here it's most, if not all abilities? Jeez.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dialga and Palkia have been fighting since time began. Do they have resistances to every single one of each other's abilities?

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Maybe. (Shrugs)

 

[SomebodyData]

"Also, why on earth does UKG have Ultimate Madoka's stuff? It's not a clone. It's a separate being." No. UKG, to simplify things, is the corrupted version of Ultimate Madoka.

The despair of all witches being a clear contradiction? What? What does it contradict?

The entire resistance to all of Madoka's things actually came from the EOM vs UKG thread, where it was stated (From what I remember) if the characters are known to use their hax and truly do everything they can, say even dirty tactics (Like I dunno, killing it as it's being born), and the character this is directed is pretty explicitly shown to be completely unaffected after all is said and done, then its addable (At least, that's why TEOM has it) Though even then, UKG does show resistance against most of the major stuff so its not much of a change as most people probably think.

The argument of PIS and CIS only works when A- It isn't shown that UKG is basically on an entirely different level to UM and B- UM's entire mindset not being destroying all witches using the hax she had gained in this form.

While I get you're new (Relatively speaking) to the series, but only seeing two installments of it when a lot of the information you're debating against comes from outside that is not the best route to go.

 

[Kaltias]

Also, why on earth does UKG have Ultimate Madoka's stuff? It's not a clone. It's a separate being. Just because the thing is a result of an equal and opposite reaction doesn't mean it should have her abilities. Heck, it's not even equal at first, because during its inception, it was 5-B to her 2-A, and only reached her level through time.

Because it's Madoka's witch form. The very first thing that UKG does, is coming out of Madoka's Soul Gem.

Witches do retain the ability of a magical girl. Candeloro uses threads. Ophelia uses illusions. Oktavia has regen. Neither Kazumi nor Kanna lost any power after partially becoming witches. Doppels are literally the magical girl + witch so obviously they don't lose powers, either.

UKG being the despair of all witches: Clear contradiction to what we see ON SCREEN, where she has nothing to do with any magical girl except Madoka. Death of the author comes into play here, and that's the best case scenario. Worst case is flowery language.

It doesn't contradict it, though?

Heck she is the witch form of a person who is all magical girls, so if anything it's supported.

It depends on the character of the character one is fighting.

Try something along the lines of "The purpose of my entire existence is destroying you forever".

Dialga and Palkia have been fighting since time began. Do they have resistances to every single one of each other's abilities?

Which isn't the logic applied here, otherwise Madoka would also have resistance to everything that UKG can do.

The only assumption is that the literal concept of "destroying witches" tried her best to do so (Which obviously extended beyond simply slapping UKG given that Madoka pretty clearly tried to hax her out of existence.

Is Uxie having good mind hax an assumption? Yes. Is it a reasonable assumption? Yes.

The site doesn't only run on evidence, assumptions are fine as long as they are reasonable.

Absolute worst case scenario, she has resistance to Madoka's high end powers because she has shown it, and resistance to the passive stuff/hax used with basic attacks, which constitutes most of Madoka's arsenal, anyway.

No we removed the resistances as it was never confirmed that he fought God nor whether it was a close match or not.

That latter part still applies here. What I'm trying to say, there's literally zero evidence of Ultimate Madoka using even one percent of her abilities on UKG. And that's not an exaggeration. At least, I don't think it is.

Except that it doesn't?

Madoka literally exist to destroy UKG, and it's a pretty freaking close battle, because she is fighting her eternally and has yet to defeat her.

About nigh-omniscience:

We know that UKG is the not mindless kind of witch.

We know that UKG shares at least a portion of Madokami's memory.

She is potentially omnipresent at peak, which would give her Madoka's higher perspective.

So what's wrong with a "Possibly" rating?

Also can we avoid stuff like "It's a mockery of what we do here" kind of comments? They are 190% irrelevant for the discussion. At best they are useless, at worst they create a heated atmosphere that i don't want here.

Even more so when those resistances weren't added because me and SD randomly decided "Let's assume high end resistances for UKG", but because we where literally told that this is the reason why this dude has high end resistances, in a similar situation.

 

[Blade0886]

I have recently read the Wraith arc(like, two days ago) after seeing that Kriemhild Gretchen was somehow rated 2-A here now for some reason. And I got to say, I.DO.NOT understand where all the fuss is coming from! It's been explicitely stated that KG got away from being erased by Madoka via hiding in Homura's shield, which would mean she doesn't even qualify for hax resistance, since she had to HIDE in order to survive. She most certainly did not endure it. And while KG was supposed to be terminated before she could grow any further by Madoka back in the original series, there is not much sense in saying she'd be able to grow to the same level as Madoka in a reasonable amount of time. You guys need to remember that the KG we're talking about is the witch of the Madoka that one-shot the Walpurgis Naght immediately after her wish was granted. Only after that did she separate from her soul gem and became UM, leaving KG to emerge from said soul gem.


And there's another thing. If any of the allegations concerning KG are true, then why doesn't full-power Homura from the Wraith Arc scale to her? She did at least crack KG's defenses and broke the shield, leaving Madoka to actually kill KG once and for all.

 

[Kaltias]

after seeing that Kriemhild Gretchen was somehow rated 2-A here now for some reason.

It's literally stated that her avatar will destroy the World of Wraiths, which is the multiverse.

It's been explicitely stated that KG got away from being erased by Madoka via hiding in Homura's shield, which would mean she doesn't even qualify for hax resistance, since she had to HIDE in order to survive.

When because i definitely don't recall that. We literally see Madoka destroying her on screen.

Heck it's actually specifically stated that UKG and Madoka are fighting eternally.

She most certainly did not endure it.

That's why she has Regenerationn.

And while KG was supposed to be terminated before she could grow any further by Madoka back in the original series, there is not much sense in saying she'd be able to grow to the same level as Madoka in a reasonable amount of time.

Read point 1.

You guys need to remember that the KG we're talking about is the witch of the Madoka that one-shot the Walpurgis Naght immediately after her wish was granted. Only after that did she separate from her soul gem and became UM, leaving KG to emerge from said soul gem.

What? UKG is blatantly the witch form of Ultimate Madoka.

Magical girl Madoka doesn't have a Soul Gem the size of a comet.

then why doesn't full-power Homura from the Wraith Arc scale to her? She did at least crack KG's defenses and broke the shield, leaving Madoka to actually kill KG once and for all.

Because that's:

1) A giant outlier

2) That was AoC, not UKG

 

[RKGenki]

Are you sure you read it carefully? Because it looks like you missed the info dump in the last chapter.

Here it'stated that:

1- Madoka is still fighting UKG as she is a witch and wherever there's a witch Madoka is bound to be.

2- The shield is a path to an obsolete timeline (aka the erased multiverse).

3- UKG even appears as ultimate Madoka in one panel.

4- The thing that Homura and Madoka defeated is not UKG. It's a moksha (?) Wraith corrupted by the curses that spread from the shield and became the Avatar of Calamity (who also has a profile on there), so there is no reason to scale Homura from UKG.

Edit: aand Kal beat me to it.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

>Gretchen need to hide in order to survive?

How can you hide from an Omnipresent being that encompassed two Multiverse?

 

[DodoNova2]

soooooo

It seems to me solved

 

[Kaltias]

>Gretchen need to hide in order to survive?
How can you hide from an Omnipresent being that encompassed two Multiverse?

You hide in a third multiverse

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The despair of all witches being a clear contradiction? What? What does it contradict?

The fact UKG showed nothing to do with any other witches on screen.

The entire resistance to all of Madoka's things actually came from the EOM vs UKG thread, where it was stated (From what I remember) if the characters are known to use their hax and truly do everything they can, say even dirty tactics (Like I dunno, killing it as it's being born), and the character this is directed is pretty explicitly shown to be completely unaffected after all is said and done, then its addable (At least, that's why TEOM has it) Though even then, UKG does show resistance against most of the major stuff so its not much of a change as most people probably think.

GEoM shouldn't have it either, and what other things does she show to resist, because as you said earlier, it never fights.

The argument of PIS and CIS only works when A- It isn't shown that UKG is basically on an entirely different level to UM and B- UM's entire mindset not being destroying all witches using the hax she had gained in this form.

Speaking of which, where is it shown that UKG is >>>> Madoka? But that's besides the point. She still never showed it. Saik agreed with me there. We see her launch an arrow. That's it.

While I get you're new (Relatively speaking) to the series, but only seeing two installments of it when a lot of the information you're debating against comes from outside that is not the best route to go.

Frankly, I don't need to see all of it to find something fishy.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because it's Madoka's witch form. The very first thing that UKG does, is coming out of Madoka's Soul Gem.

Witches do retain the ability of a magical girl. Candeloro uses threads. Ophelia uses illusions. Oktavia has regen. Neither Kazumi nor Kanna lost any power after partially becoming witches. Doppels are literally the magical girl + witch so obviously they don't lose powers, either.

Low tier stuff for Ophelia and Oktavia. All that proves is that UKG would have Madoka's arrows. As Matt said to me, you have to prove that it can have the OP stuff before it can copy it.

It doesn't contradict it, though?

Heck she is the witch form of a person who is all magical girls, so if anything it's supported.

Considering that Godoka has to absorb all the other magical girls, false equivalency.

Which isn't the logic applied here, otherwise Madoka would also have resistance to everything that UKG can do.

Just because it's only half applied doesn't mean ya not the logic being used.

The only assumption is that the literal concept of "destroying witches" tried her best to do so (Which obviously extended beyond simply slapping UKG given that Madoka pretty clearly tried to hax her out of existence.

She shot an arrow.

Is Uxie having good mind hax an assumption? Yes. Is it a reasonable assumption? Yes.

False equivalency. If I was bringing up Godoka, you would have a point.

The site doesn't only run on evidence, assumptions are fine as long as they are reasonable.

Except it's not here.

Absolute worst case scenario, she has resistance to Madoka's high end powers because she has shown it, and resistance to the passive stuff/hax used with basic attacks, which constitutes most of Madoka's arsenal, anyway.

I'll use Palkia and Dialga again. They passively Erase things from existence when fighting each other. Yet. Only Darkrai has the resistance to existence erasure. Why not Grovyle and Dusknoir, is the protagonists of PMD2? Because Darkrai is the only one who fights them when there's an instance of them doing it. Same logic applies here. What thing dog Madoka's are passive anyway?

Except that it doesn't?

Madoka literally exist to destroy UKG, and it's a pretty freaking close battle, because she is fighting her eternally and has yet to defeat her.

Show it. If you show it, I'll shut up.

About nigh-omniscience:

We know that UKG is the not mindless kind of witch.

We know that UKG shares at least a portion of Madokami's memory.

She is potentially omnipresent at peak, which would give her Madoka's higher perspective.

So what's wrong with a "Possibly" rating?

I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. Show it. All of these are leaps in logic.

Also can we avoid stuff like "It's a mockery of what we do here" kind of comments? They are 190% irrelevant for the discussion. At best they are useless, at worst they create a heated atmosphere that i don't want here.

Kal, you're one of my favorite people on this site, and so is SD. So I will not post that again. But defending myself there, I called it as I saw it. Matt or Kep would do the same.

Even more so when those resistances weren't added because me and SD randomly decided "Let's assume high end resistances for UKG", but because we where literally told that this is the reason why this dude has high end resistances, in a similar situation.

GEoM shouldn't have 'em either.