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Problems with Lookism (PTJ verse) speed calculations

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the water splash had different
It was pretty much the same thing. Just replace water splash with drool.
we see how his stance is during the move. hes never shown to move back via overturning void. and he overturns them via doing a 180degree kick most likely in this specific instance. .
yeah but his upper body seems to move as he's kicking
theres deffinetly other feats in this same arc. like lineman blitzing what i recall is 12 men in the air without them moving one bit.?
daniel reacting to a blade that already looks like its touching his neck.

linemans (kinda? still iffy on this) literally implied to spew lightning from his moves. including the sound effects applied.
These aren't even accepted so stop bringing up new calcs/feats to an unrelated thread.
manager kims new feat is LITERALLY at worst supersonic too. (slicing a bullet directed at someone else ) more impressive in context, i reccomend you check it out.
I checked it out and openly stated that I think the feat scaling to Supersonic is a good result as it's a pretty straight forward feat rather than wanky bs this verse mostly uses.
i get your point of view. but ptj is blatantly portraying goo being a dominant force right after reciving a massive powerup.
He doesn't need to slow-mo the dudd to be a dominant force over him.
also its not the same 2 panels . the 1st drool instance has his head slightly more tilted,and detailed. then its zoomed out. (in a way where you can tell its not the same drawing due to general lack of detail) where key pieces if not every part of the drool maintains the same air position across 4 panels while its a different basement hulk drawing in the same pose. now knowing that its a different drawing, id argue for him to keep the drool in place (easiest thing to draw differently) is outright him showing the massive speed descrepancy via blitz.
My dude. These two panels, are exactly the same with the exception of Goo's movement.
the only wind pressure shown from goo is his intial dash, his "wind pressure" is just him actually slicing the things that are in the air rather then throwing them up in the air per slash with wind pressure.
its actually a fairly consistent thing we see in differnt ptj series too, like in manager kim, air slashes (that slash FAR out the range of a human) dont produce air pressure anywhere outside of where the cuts happening, same as in juvenile law / dead mansion (forgot the name)
I was wrong about the wind pressure thing actually. Goo simply just makes them go flying with his slashes, as the same thing happens right before he performs the feat too.
too further comment on the goo feat, the specific timeframe is the 1st 3 panels of the "slow mo" due to the panel AFTER hes shown to already be past the side of basement hulk (which doesnt put him in a position to have landed those attacks)
Alright so first of all, the drool locations are literally different in the 1st and the 2nd panel of the feat. It's even more obvious when you put them on top of each other like I did. The only ones similar are the 2nd and 3rd panel, which I already presented my arguments on.
 
I can't believe I forgot about this too. This is a Calc Group Discussion thread which is meant for only Calc Group Members to comment on. You're literally just clogging up the thread with different unevaluated calculations, almost as if you're tryna make this thing impossible to be evaluated.

The only point that is related to the thread is the point you have aganist me about my debunk on the "Goo full moon slashes" calc, so just talk about that.
 
"It was pretty much the same thing. Just replace water splash with drool."
there was differences in the calc. the calc previously was rain falling speed but got re evaluated as a water splash. although to me it seemed more like falling speed shouldnt have been used due to it most likely still being launched upwards due to the force of jinrangs attack.
the drool here can only be falling, and cant be confused for anything else.

"yeah but his upper body seems to move as he's kicking"

what im saying is that not a single time overturning void has been shown has he ever moved back. even when the attack already appears to have landed like in busan for example. for him to hit the enemy within range , he wouldnt move backwards for a kick. especially scince in context. he moved INTO the position to defend someone else. so its unreasonable to assume that he moved to the position, stood still for no reason, then went backwards to do a kick.

"He doesn't need to slow-mo the dudd to be a dominant force over him."

im saying it being a show of extreme dominance justifiest it being slow mo (outside of every other quality it already fits) due to it portraying a speed discrepency
"My dude. These two panels, are exactly the same with the exception of Goo's movement."

goos movement IS what matters here. doesnt matter if the panel is reused (90% of the time thats literally how most manga/manhwa slow motion feats looks)
he goes from not being near basement hulk to, next to him, doing the attacks, then the drool and blood finally changes position.

the point is that it fits literally every metric needed for a slow mo calc.

the 2nd and 3rd panels are all that matter scince thats the timeframe where goo would be doing his attacks before getting past the range of basement hulk. still very much fits the qualities for a slow motion calculation.

"
I can't believe I forgot about this too. This is a Calc Group Discussion thread which is meant for only Calc Group Members to comment on. You're literally just clogging up the thread with different unevaluated calculations, almost as if you're tryna make this thing impossible to be evaluated.

The only point that is related to the thread is the point you have aganist me about my debunk on the "Goo full moon slashes" calc, so just talk about that.

"

didnt realise that. my apologies. the full moon slashes arent calced under proper logic so i agree with you on that specific instanece. no way of getting a timeframe unless its of the falling objects around goo. which is doable. but hella iffy
 
there was differences in the calc. the calc previously was rain falling speed but got re evaluated as a water splash. although to me it seemed more like falling speed shouldnt have been used due to it most likely still being launched upwards due to the force of jinrangs attack.
the drool here can only be falling, and cant be confused for anything else.
Actually, it can easily be the same thing as the drool in this calc too. We don't know if the drool is falling down, or still moving above or forward. In those cases, the speed of the drool is pretty much unquantifiable as, we don't know how fast do humans spit? (didn't think I would ever talk about the mechanics of drool in this site)
for him to hit the enemy within range , he wouldnt move backwards for a kick.
Kicks have higher range than punches. It's quite literally common knowledge. So you can counter a punch by moving backwards and throwing a kick. It's not impossible.
especially scince in context. he moved INTO the position to defend someone else. so its unreasonable to assume that he moved to the position, stood still for no reason, then went backwards to do a kick.
Him "staying still for no reason" can be easily cuz he's baiting the opponent into a counter. That's what most counter punchers in boxing do.

Also, I'm not saying he absolutely went backwards. I'm just saying he obviously moved, didn't stay still. His choice of attack in the feat is literally a side kick which requires you to turn your upper body.
im saying it being a show of extreme dominance justifiest it being slow mo (outside of every other quality it already fits) due to it portraying a speed discrepency
"My dude. These two panels, are exactly the same with the exception of Goo's movement."
goos movement IS what matters here. doesnt matter if the panel is reused (90% of the time thats literally how most manga/manhwa slow motion feats looks)
he goes from not being near basement hulk to, next to him, doing the attacks, then the drool and blood finally changes position.
This doesn't answer my arguments on panels being re-used other than the bolded part. When there's a slow-mo situation in manga/manhwa feats (or any kind of comic) it's either explicitly stated that the other guy left him in slow mo, or the opponent that gets slow mo'd gets slow-mo'd in the middle of their attack so it's painfully obvious that it is slow mo. Using the "drool that is not moving" is just digging too deep to find a feat.
didnt realise that. my apologies. the full moon slashes arent calced under proper logic so i agree with you on that specific instanece. no way of getting a timeframe unless its of the falling objects around goo. which is doable. but hella iffy
No problem, but you kinda pissed me off in the upgrade thread because of this so just wanted to note that so this thread doesn't get clogged up too.
 
"Actually, it can easily be the same thing as the drool in this calc too. We don't know if the drool is falling down, or still moving above or forward. In those cases, the speed of the drool is pretty much unquantifiable as, we don't know how fast do humans spit? (didn't think I would ever talk about the mechanics of drool in this site)"

the pieces calculated are 1. shown moving downwards (one of the bigger pieces atleast) and some are completely detached from his mouth.

"Kicks have higher range than punches. It's quite literally common knowledge. So you can counter a punch by moving backwards and throwing a kick. It's not impossible."

yeah but i pointed it out BECOUSE one of the enemies is shown also throwing a kick. thus the range discrepency.

"Him "staying still for no reason" can be easily cuz he's baiting the opponent into a counter. That's what most counter punchers in boxing do."

the context shows that hes not baiting anyone. those guys are literally already in the middle of an attack against someone else. which he interrupts. it wasnt a strategy. he just got infront of it. and deflected the attack (as overturning void has never shown to move backwards, even almost looking like they got hit) from that spot (be it from a kick that was 90 degrees or 180 degrees. one of the attack arcs shows a 90 degree kick.

the point is he wouldv had to execute that attack and movement before the fodders moved the extremily small distence , and he started the movement AFTER they got
that close.

"his doesn't answer my arguments on panels being re-used other than the bolded part. When there's a slow-mo situation in manga/manhwa feats (or any kind of comic) it's either explicitly stated that the other guy left him in slow mo, or the opponent that gets slow mo'd gets slow-mo'd in the middle of their attack so it's painfully obvious that it is slow mo. Using the "drool that is not moving" is just digging too deep to find a feat."

i get your argument. you want a statement or a very obvious showcase of it being actual slow motion. im saying according to vs battle wiki, what im presenting is enough to fit a slow motion aplication. i get that you disagree with it. but the way its shown is that we literally dont even see goos attacks. thats how badly the guy got blitzed. its atleast ment to be a demonstration of extreme speed difference.

other feats for example levins slow motion . were previously accepted under this criteria. random ramble but im still shocked how the sinu feat isnt evaluated in the same maner (where he blitzed the 6 guys midair in the same exact position, with the individuals admission of not seeing the attack) .

ill most likely stop commenting here but id apreciate if we could discuss some potential calculations/ feats if you have time here and there
 
1. shown moving downwards (one of the bigger pieces atleast) and some are completely detached from his mouth.
How are they "shown moving downwards" exactly?

Them being detached from the mouth doesn't mean they can't go any direction other than downwards.
yeah but i pointed it out BECOUSE one of the enemies is shown also throwing a kick. thus the range discrepency.
I didn't see that ig. I'll take you on your word for that one and not check it out.
the point is he wouldv had to execute that attack and movement before the fodders moved the extremily small distence , and he started the movement AFTER they got
that close.
First of all, we don't even see the dude's lower body so we don't even know when he started moving. Second, these still don't answer my argument on how his upper body tuens with the kick, which means that he actually evaded the attack as he was countering it.
i get your argument. you want a statement or a very obvious showcase of it being actual slow motion. im saying according to vs battle wiki, what im presenting is enough to fit a slow motion aplication. i get that you disagree with it.
Then we have to agree to disagree with each other ig.
but the way its shown is that we literally dont even see goos attacks. thats how badly the guy got blitzed. its atleast ment to be a demonstration of extreme speed difference.
That's more of a camera angle and a common trope manga/manhwa use (getting behind the opponent as you deliver the final blow). It shows extreme speed difference for sure, just don't think it shows slow mo.
other feats for example levins slow motion . were previously accepted under this criteria.
I partially remember that calc but that wasn't moving in slow mo, it was seeing in slow mo if i remember correctly. Also AOT has an anime so the slow mo probably came from the anime, not the manga.
ill most likely stop commenting here but id apreciate if we could discuss some potential calculations/ feats if you have time here and there
You can msg me on my msg wall about those if you want.
 
2. Piggy blocks a knife
This is just a variation of those old "Dodging punches from close range" calcs. The "piggy" character after performing this feat almost got killed by the dude with the knife which pretty much invalidates the calc as it assumes that the speed gap between them is like 40x.
Aside from that. The calc implies Daniel could fit his entire arm length (He jabbed) in the distance between his face and the other guy's hand. Which is physically impossible, the distance was barely the knife's length.

In the second panel, they don't even look that close tbh.
5. Shingen punches Masaichi
which means that Shingen moved away from the punch before punching it himself, which in turn invalidates the timeframe.
I just think Lookism exaggerates those distances; they are never that close in the first place. No reason to believe characters 100x faster, let the slowers approach their faces at millimetric distances before countering them.

Also, using 20 m/s punching speed for that is meh; it's an inefficient way of punching, whose speed is more dependent on how fast they dash or move their body forward (not sure how the movement started since the entire scene isn't linked), than how fast they move their arm, in a proper boxing form.

-

Assuming someone checks and accepts this, what speed would the characters be scaled to? If the goal is to nuke every calc of the verse (I myself believe lookism's speed should be reworked, especially now that they have clearly above-bullets speeds), it would be nice to have some back-ups, and not just list everyone at superhuman or whatever.
 
Aside from that. The calc implies Daniel could fit his entire arm length (He jabbed) in the distance between his face and the other guy's hand. Which is physically impossible, the distance was barely the knife's length.

In the second panel, they don't even look that close tbh.
Yeah, true.
I just think Lookism exaggerates those distances; they are never that close in the first place. No reason to believe characters 100x faster, let the slowers approach their faces at millimetric distances before countering them.
I fully agree with this btw. Not the "Lookism exaggarates those distances" part, since that's essentially what's shown, but the latter reasoning is true.

I think feats of "Avoiding attacks from close distance" can only be viable if the character dodging the strike gets a sudden, and significant speed amp as the attack gets close. There's just no other reason why a dude with a massive speed gap would wait till the slower dude gets close to them tbh.
Also, using 20 m/s punching speed for that is meh; it's an inefficient way of punching, whose speed is more dependent on how fast they dash or move their body forward (not sure how the movement started since the entire scene isn't linked), than how fast they move their arm, in a proper boxing form.
Well, these dudes are superhumans so I'd say using superhuman speed is not that bad, though my primary concern is a speed that is widely rejected (20 m/s was decided to be invalid as far as I remember) is being used.
Assuming someone checks and accepts this, what speed would the characters be scaled to? If the goal is to nuke every calc of the verse (I myself believe lookism's speed should be reworked, especially now that they have clearly above-bullets speeds), it would be nice to have some back-ups, and not just list everyone at superhuman or whatever.
Well, BOS Zack has a FTE statement and BOS Taehoon has a stated speed of around 60 m/s, so all characters are Subsonic at the very least. There's also Akira's feat of blitzing an MMA fighter that scales a bit higher than baseline Subsonic. As far as I remember, Akira was faster than Zack in the saving Sinu arc, but slower than Vin Jin without glasses. There's also a promising feat of MK slicing a bullet which I think would scale at Transonic-Supersonic ranges.
 
I think feats of "Avoiding attacks from close distance" can only be viable if the character dodging the strike gets a sudden, and significant speed amp as the attack gets close. There's just no other reason why a dude with a massive speed gap would wait till the slower dude gets close to them tbh.
Following IRL logic, a fighter would always try to read and dodge the attack when it still hasn't accelerated, so yeah. But these kinds of feats might be valid if the character is caught off guard and didn't notice the attack until it was too late.
Well, these dudes are superhumans so I'd say using superhuman speed is not that bad, though my primary concern is a speed that is widely rejected (20 m/s was decided to be invalid as far as I remember) is being used.
The thing is, martial arts techniques are supposed to generate the most optimal movement. A boxer who uses proper technique might reach 14-20 m/s, but without it, he might not even surpass 8 m/s. Thus, someone moving at 10 m/s with an inefficient movement would still indeed be superhuman. It might be nitpicking on my side, but that's my thought.

About the 20 m/s, the Wikipedia page's links don't work for me, and I can't find any other official record of that punch except for this video, which either doesn't show that punch, or it's within the first demonstration he makes, thus making it unusable for any actual punch in fiction, since it's clearly not a punch meant to be used in a fight.
Well, BOS Zack has a FTE statement and BOS Taehoon has a stated speed of around 60 m/s, so all characters are Subsonic at the very least. There's also Akira's feat of blitzing an MMA fighter that scales a bit higher than baseline Subsonic. As far as I remember, Akira was faster than Zack in the saving Sinu arc, but slower than Vin Jin without glasses. There's also a promising feat of MK slicing a bullet which I think would scale at Transonic-Supersonic ranges.
The bullet feat got calculated to hypersonic, apparently.
 
But these kinds of feats might be valid if the character is caught off guard and didn't notice the attack until it was too late.
That too.
The thing is, martial arts techniques are supposed to generate the most optimal movement. A boxer who uses proper technique might reach 14-20 m/s, but without it, he might not even surpass 8 m/s. Thus, someone moving at 10 m/s with an inefficient movement would still indeed be superhuman. It might be nitpicking on my side, but that's my thought.
It's kinda nitpicky yeah. Not that it's wrong, but works of fiction don't always pay attention of the demonstration of martial arts techniques, especially when the characters of the verse are superhumans.
About the 20 m/s, the Wikipedia page's links don't work for me, and I can't find any other official record of that punch except for this video, which either doesn't show that punch, or it's within the first demonstration he makes, thus making it unusable for any actual punch in fiction, since it's clearly not a punch meant to be used in a fight.
Oh yeah no. This was definitely invalid to use back then.
Wow. That version really got accepted. Sometimes I think about the past me brainstorming on feats to calc them as accurate as possible and wonder if those times were a waste of time or not.
 
Hello, I was summoned here, dear god, that's a lot of replies.

I'll give my two cents for each calculation problem real quick.

Lookism​

1st calculation​

There are actually two problems with that calculation. The timeframe (0.08 seconds) is not used for this anymore, it would be just 0.2 seconds, plus the whole problem with all the punches being delivered at the same time OP proposed

2nd calculation​

Seems to be the case, if the character who performed this feat was almost beaten by that knife guy (I'm not reading that chapter), then the calculation is invalidated

3rd calculation​

Timeframe is invalid, yes, but I don't think it is a stretch to say he pulled his legs that amount of time, you kinda that need to do that to kick, after all.

4th calculation​

That one just does not work at all

5th calculation​

That is invalidated as the OP stated

Viral Hit​

1st calculation​

I'm going to tag the people that are still active and who made these calcs later, but guys, I want you to know you should not do this, you shouldn't just take away context like this. I wasn't here for it, but I'm almost sure if you keep doing this the verse can be banned much like it happened with Tokyo Revengers, stop that

2nd calculation​

Not all feats need pixel scaling, and I think this can be calculated, would use the speed of a punch (Can't be bothered to look for it) and I believe the distance moved by the arm can be determined, since in the first scan the punch wasn't completed, while in the second scan that thug's arm was fully extended. If it would use or not use pixel scaling I don't know, I think eveyrthing can be assumed in that feat but some of it wouldn't hurt

Manager Kim​

1st calculation​

Reading the comments, it seems the calculation was already rejected, no?

Questism​

1st calculation​

I don't mind the assumptions in this calc to be honest

2nd calculation​

I think the only two problem I have is the distance, I think using this panel for it would be fine, and the movement, which would only be the forearm, not the whole arm

@Viott @Rynizenz your calcs got stray, you're allowed to comment on them (Viott seems to have matured in these few years and I believe his opinion should be vallued with the same weight as a CGM, despite not having voting rights). Daposki Vezza has also made several of these calcs and his last edit on the wiki was on November 1st, but he doesn't have an account here, so not a lot to do about that.

Rynizenz seems to have already commented here, but I don't want to read everything because it is already past 1 AM and I need to sleep (I was going to play DS3 from Midnight until now, but I remembered someone asked me to go here and I end up forgetting about it) but, if possible Rynizenz, repass all of your thoughts about your own calculations, if you want to defend them you are allowed, rather me or other CGMs will agree is a different story, but you are allowed to do it, you can talk about the other calcs but unfortunate I don't think your opinion holds that much weight on them.

Viott is allowed to talk about his own and any other calculation he wishes

Now I go to sleep
 
I pretty much agree with Drite here.

Neutral about timeframe of 2nd calc of Questism tho. I might comment on it later.
 
I will only comment on my own calculations.

Warren Chae's multi punch
The calculation assumes that all of the punches moved in one single timeframe (0.08s), but there is no evidence supporting that. Each punch could've just moved in seperate timeframes (each punch moving in 0.08s) which would've been enough to blitz the other guy.

Plus, all of the punches don't even need to move that fast for the other guy to not be able to react to them. He's literally getting bombarded with punches, which would naturally reduce his ability to be able to react to attacks.
There is no evidence that he covered the calculated distance within 0.08 seconds. I agree.
Jincheol park shoots a knife
The reason why this calc is invalid is kinda similar to the Shingen Punches Masaichi calc, but it's less obvious. In the first scan we see the knife that was thrown at Jıncheol is right near Jıncheol's head. Homewer after Jıncheol shoots the knife away (the second scan) we see that his hand is positioned to be ahead his head, despite the first scan showing us that the knife was thrown is right near him. The calculation assumes that Jıncheol only moved his head away while looking at the position of his hand, we see that Jincheol must've moved his head back too.

This invalidates the timeframe used in the accepted calculation as we can't know if the knife got past Jincheol's head or not because his head isn't at the same plane as the knife by the time he shoots it away.
Yes, since he moved his head, the knife may have covered more distance. I agree.

Daniel moves fast
The distance moved by Daniel is inflated. He doesn't need to move his forearm more than 90 degrees to grab the dude.
Since we can't see Daniel's other arm, it is unknown when he started moving. Therefore, I agree.
 
Since we can't see Daniel's other arm, it is unknown when he started moving. Therefore, I agree.
I think panel is good enough to assume what blog did. Exactly because otherwise his right arm would be visible.
 
I think panel is good enough to assume what blog did. Exactly because otherwise his right arm would be visible.
This doesn't mean it will move 160 degrees. Even if it traveled a shorter distance than that, the arm still wouldn't be visible in the panel.
 
Can't believe I waited this thread to be evaluated for a month straight and it got evaluated while I was in a break.
Not all feats need pixel scaling, and I think this can be calculated, would use the speed of a punch (Can't be bothered to look for it) and I believe the distance moved by the arm can be determined, since in the first scan the punch wasn't completed, while in the second scan that thug's arm was fully extended. If it would use or not use pixel scaling I don't know, I think eveyrthing can be assumed in that feat but some of it wouldn't hurt
Well, there's also the fact that the distances between the guy's head and the other guy's fist between panels is inconsistent with each other.
Reading the comments, it seems the calculation was already rejected, no?
I'm not sure tbh. There are like 3 recalcs of this feat. This one was in the verse page so I assumed it was accepted.
I don't mind the assumptions in this calc to be honest
I lowkey agree with Viott on this. To add, a 180 degrees arm movement in a fight is very unnecessary and unrealistic, no?
I think the only two problem I have is the distance, I think using this panel for it would be fine, and the movement, which would only be the forearm, not the whole arm
I'd be fine with it if the panel you suggested could be angsized properly.
 
Can't believe I waited this thread to be evaluated for a month straight and it got evaluated while I was in a break.
I always get this, but when I'm at work, then I see the notification and forget about it, like it happened with this, but then I remembered now '-'
Well, there's also the fact that the distances between the guy's head and the other guy's fist between panels is inconsistent with each other.
Seems to be the case with some of this Korean things tbh, it's kinda weird '-'

I lowkey agree with Viott on this. To add, a 180 degrees arm movement in a fight is very unnecessary and unrealistic, no?
The main thing I was getting, perhaps erroneously, is that he did this before the punch was completed, but I suppose just assuming he grabbed the other guy's fist would suffice and work as a better low ball of it. For that, I would also consider only a movement of his forearm instead of the full arm
 
The main thing I was getting, perhaps erroneously, is that he did this before the punch was completed, but I suppose just assuming he grabbed the other guy's fist would suffice and work as a better low ball of it. For that, I would also consider only a movement of his forearm instead of the full arm
Waiting in line at the doctors (why do they take so long). So I decided to open VSBW and saw Dino’s thread finally got evaled.

It doesn’t work that way, I might be missing something since I’m on my phone but I’m assuming that you’ve said that his arm rotates him downwards therefore he moved 180 degrees because his arm was facing upwards or something?

Nah, you use the minimum distance moved because there’s calc would then assume that the glasses dudes punch was still moving when the other dude reached him, which would be max 90 degrees movement.
 
Seems to be the case with some of this Korean things tbh, it's kinda weird '-'
I mean, most manhwas are webtoons which are mostly drawn by artists that aren't as experienced as mangakas or comic artists.

Also, I take it that you agree with me on how the calc's wrong?
The main thing I was getting, perhaps erroneously, is that he did this before the punch was completed, but I suppose just assuming he grabbed the other guy's fist would suffice and work as a better low ball of it. For that, I would also consider only a movement of his forearm instead of the full arm
I think Vzearr pointed out the thing I was gonna point out. 90 degrees forearm movement is the best lowball for this imo.
 
I can agree with the forearm movement
Alright. I typed the decisions for each calc in the thread. I'll wait a bit so the owners of the calcs can fix the ones that need fixing, if they don't I can quickly make a recalc blog for em then re-do them with the suggested fixes myself.
 
I don't think you need to keep the thread open, it is sorta concluded now, no?
 
I don't think you need to keep the thread open, it is sorta concluded now, no?
I mean, the thread's technically not concluded yet as we didn't fix the calcs that need fixing. Also, re-do of the calculations that need fixing would be evaluated much faster and easier from here.
 
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