Problems with Mind Manipulation and Equalization

[YungManzi]

Okay a few issues brought up in the recent Top 5 Characters for every tier thread.

What is Mind Manipulation
I think when most people talk about mind manipulation, they think of Mind Control. An ability which previously had a page, but no longer does and was merged with Mind Manipulation.

This gives people the impression that Mind Control (Or the basic application of giving others commands and making them follow them) is better than other subsets of Mind Manipulation. Making it better than Perception Manipulation, and others.

Evidence here: "If you resist mind manip, you can resist perception manip depending how it works, is just another way of controlling your mind after all. If you resist perception manip though, you sure as hell aren't resisting mind manip without feats."

So, that's a problem. A good reason for bringing the Mind Control page back, as it's also a subset, the same as perception manipulation, and is only one aspect of the total package which is Mind Manipulation.

I've literally seen people argue that Mind Control isn't a subset because it doesn't have its own page.

Mind Manipulation is Broad
We don't think about it much, but Mind Manipulation in general is an extremely broad power. Not as broad as something like Reality Warping, but is similar in that it itself is not one actual ability, but rather a lot of smaller abilities wrapped into one.

Those being Mind Control, Fear Manipulation,Madness Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Illusion Creation and others I'm probably missing. (Like Memory Manipulation, depending on the mechanics)

The Equalization Issue
I believe these should all by equalized (As long as they're all done through the mind). Which means someone with resistance to one, would also have resistance to the other. So long as it is reasonable, one "mystical" mind power is equalized to the other "mystical" mind power unless one of the verses makes a distinction between the two which wouldn't allow for such equalization to take place.

But after talking to others, I discovered a lot of people didn't agree, and a decent number of them felt that they shouldn't be equalized at all.

I'll put into context what that means:

Anyone who doesn't specifically resist perception manipulation, doesn't have resistance to base Genjutsu or Aizen's shikai (Meaning, the Mind Manipulation umbrella no longer protects you from Madness or Perception Manipulation, unless you have feats to back it up)

You are also no longer protected from Fear or Madness Manipulation with Mind Control resistance alone.

^^These popular sentiments suddenly being implemented would vastly change the way we current handle these things.

I feel this is far too restricting, as Mind Manipulation can vary wildly and not equalizing subsets creates more problems VS battles-wise than the alternative.

What's the community take on this?

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think everything should be considered equivalent. I think the broader control ones would cover those that are subsets provided the control is absolute enough. It also depends how the perception and mind stuff are done. There's some verses where almost all mind control is done via messing specifically with the brain and hormones and stuff, then others where it's more mystical and different. Likewise with perception, people mess with brains, nerves located elsewhere, weird spiritual constructs, etc.

So I don't think this is constant enough to say there's 1 definitive standard to. Kinda just depends how well you argue.

 

[Akreious]

I personally take it as a case by case basis. It would sorta be impossible to make a strict standard on this matter because... how do you do that with something this broad.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Case by case basis, but mostly no.

If you resist your mind being affected by a psychic force in some way, there is no reason why this wouldn't protect from your being being affected by a psychic force in another way. Either way your mind resists being changed. It doesn't matter what the end result is.

Now resistance to individual types of mind manipulation can happen, but usually that's stated to be so. Like if a character resists fear manip due to being particularily fearless. It wouldn't allow resistane to other types of mind manip. But again, that's an exception, not the rule.

 

[Schnee_One]

I really don't get the idea that you resist your mind being controlled but are still forced to feel fear for a random reason and yet the resistance isn't equal.

 

[Antoniofer]

Mind Manipulation is an effect type power, is basically any power that directly affects the mind, so resisting MM would means that the character have some kind of mental shield, and would reduce any effect that directly affect the mind (this is, however, in the most vague case, where is never explained why the character have a resistance).

However, that resistance wouldn't protect the user from powers that indirectly affect the mind, such Brain Manipulation, where it simply alter the brain of someone, that is a physical power rather than an abstract one, in whose case the mental shield do not grants any protection. The nature of the power also matter, Perception Manipulation may stem to Mind Manipulation or Sense Manipulation: a mental shield would protect the user is the PM is mind-based, but if its sense-based, it doens't grant any protection.

 

[Wokistan]

You can get fear through stuff not directly associated with the brain, so I don't think we should default resisting fear to resisting every mental effect.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh no resisting Fear doesn't mean resisting every mental affect.


I'm arguing that resisting mind manipulation means Fear Manip by default

 

[Akreious]

I mean, if you resist changes to the chemicals in your brain (Which let's say is a Villain's form of Mind Control), you should logically be able to resist fear manipulation or empathetic manipulation using chemicals too since you specifically resist changes to the chemicals in your brain.

Same line of reasoning for mystical or magical mind manipulation.

 

[Wokistan]

Provided the fear isn't through those other methods yeah

I very much disagree with Anton's comment though. Why are we assuming a mind is inherently abstract? This is contradictory with what we've been doing on the site, messing with the brain for these things is still counted as mindhax. Senses are also ultimately to be interpreted by the brain, I don't see why being protected from effects that mess with your head wouldn't protect from that unless they're targeting sensory nerves elsewhere.

 

[YungManzi]

Generally we consider the mind to be abstract. At least that's what I've always heard.

 

[Wokistan]

Also:

"resisting MM would means that the character have some kind of mental shield"

Why default to this when there's several characters who resist through other means then mental shields though? Off the top of my head there's Ghost Rider (Marvel Comics) (intangible mind), Alexandria (Worm) (Stasis'd brain, mental processes offloaded to her Shard), Glaistig Uaine (Forcing it on her shade instead), Nicol Bolas (Does have shielding, but also many, many more effects), Imp (Worm) (Powers, including mindhax, can't remember her), I could find some more if I wanted. I'm not sure where assuming these things as a default comes from, and the wide variety in this subset is why I don't really think we can establish any hard decrees here.

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, mind is abstract, is not something physical, manipulating the brain is not manipulation the mind, is just people that calls the brain "biological mind" for some reason. Altering the brain is not Mind Manipulation, is akin to Biological Manipulation.

 

[Wokistan]

That certainly isn't how we've been doing things on the site. There are a lot of mindhax people who do it through brain stuff or electric signals or whatever, it's just all considered to be under that umbrella. Hell we got some verses like Destiny where they do both, sometimes at the same time.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, but brain =/= mind, so altering the mind in a indirect way through Brain Manipulation is not Mind Manipulation, and thus, MM resistance do not grant any protection (at least, conventional mm, few users may have their mind "anchored").

 

[Foxthefox1000]

A lot of hax isn't equal. There's tiers within a category of hax, and particular subsets of hax that can vary by case.

However, I agree with the proclamation that resisting having your mind willed to another also means you likely would have resistance to practically all other forms of mental attacks, given mind control is a direct attack on the mind that completely overwrites any control a person has over themselves. It's the Top Tier of mental manipulation hax IMO aside from shit like manipulating the brain directly and turning it to mush, but that's more so in tune with Biology Manip than Mind Manip, as the mind refers to the conciousness, memories, intelligence, and many other aspects of what gives a being sentience. Therefore, resisting something that directly tries to alter your free will as a sentient being would mean in general, other mind manip abilities that control smaller portions would fall under the same vein as they try to bring out the individual traits that mind control already effects. A person who has controlled a mind fully can erase their thoughts, manipulate emotions, get rid of any inhibitions they have (fear), and also alter their perception of events.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And yes, some abilities can cause mind control effects, and if a person resists them, they should resist similar effects, but something like a person's mind and will invading another's isn't inherently equal to manipulating the electricl signals in a brain via having powers that can do that, and assuming someone who can resist the latter can also resist the former isn't something I'd find myself agreeing with due to the different natures of said powers.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Whether the mind is just the brain or something beyond varies by pilosophical opinion and hence varies between verses.

Generally one should differentiate between physical and non-physical mind effects and resistance to one type isn't resistance to the other. Both physical and non-physical manipulation of consciousness are classified mind manipulation, though.


As for resistances, one can scale from the general level to the specific, but not the other way around. A general resistance to have your mind influenced in any way, would also mean resisting having your mind messed with to induce emotions.

The opposite direction doesn't need to hold. In that respect one may say that we are dealing with different areas of the mind. It would be like saying that someone resistant to having their heart destroyed also resists having any other inner organ destroyed. One could suspect it to be so, but it isn't proven or anything.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, DontTalk basically summarized my feelings perfectly.

 

[YungManzi]

"A general resistance to have your mind influenced in any way"

Is NLF unless you have all of the resistance feats to the subsets that come with MM.

 

[Antoniofer]

That would be in the most vague cases, several verses generally have a reason why a character can resist something; but yeah, resisting a mental assault would means that their mind is somehow protected.

 

[DontTalkDT]

"A general resistance to have your mind influenced in any way"
Is NLF unless you have all of the resistance feats to the subsets that come with MM.

In ANY way would be a NLF, yes, but many verses have mind resistance as an ability that aims to prevent outside forces from making any kind of change to any part of the mind. If you can't change the mind at all, then you also can't change the part responsible for emotions (under normal circumstances).

In the organ analogy one may say that it is like a carapace that surrounds the entire body under normal circumstances protecting every organ against outside force.

 

[ShivaShakti]

''Seems everyones gunning to kick the Mind Manip page's ass these days lmao''

 

[Ionliosite]

I pretty much think this varies based on how the mindhax in question is done. If it is based on altering the brain chemicals, then it would have resistance to anything doing that; if it is based on affecting a more abstract mind with something mystical, then it gains resistance to anything doing that; hence, resistance mystical mindhax doesn't grant you resistance to biological mindhax.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I definitely think it varies.

There are characters that can induce fear through inducing it in one's soul/spirit, which can in turn, affect the mind. Some characters can simply apply the concept of fear to an entire individual.

Neither of these sound like mind manipulation. But they have the effect of producing fear, through one way or another. Fear manipulation, like many other abilities, seem to have multiple subsets. I agree with regards to taking it case by case. Since fear can be taken literally (read: chemically) as reactions within the brain. Or as a concept to be influenced through abstract means. And has been shown as both across various fictional sources.

 

[YungManzi]

Btw, I kind of mention different kinds of mind manipulations already in the OP.

I'm specifically talking about equalizing mind manipulation with similar mechanics, not something like Neurosurgery Vs. Mind trick

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Oh. My fault. I clearly didn't read closely enough.

So like, if someone resists mind control, can they also resist fear manipulation?

 

[YungManzi]

That's how I think it should be, and vice-versa.

As long as they have similar mechanics.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I thought we already did that? If things have similar mechanics, I thought they were generally equalized much like how verse equalization works.

 

[YungManzi]

I thought so too. But recently there's been some battles where people try to unequalize them.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Ah, I see. So now we're just establishing official ruling on such.

And now I've been caught up. Thank you for walking me through it.