Prototype Downgrades: Part 2

[Sir_sun_man]

im with death on this one

no matter how much you punch down on the head its should not weaken a spine to such a point that he should just pop the head right off

 

[Elizhaa]

I think DeathNoodles's points make senses on James Heller scaling to Goliaths prior to the absorption of one. There are no valid Statements stating of Goliaths having limbs weakness so James Heller should fully powerscale to a Goliath because tanking damages from it, weakening it, damgaging it and defeating it; none of those feats look like Game Mechanics.

From what I read, I think DeathNoodles's points on Powerscaling Alex Mercer's second key to James Heller at 8-C make senses. I don't think we should apply Game Mechanics to cutscene events.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

also

we need to make 4 new keys for heller

and add 1 more for mercer

4 keys for heller

early game, mid game, end game and after absorbing mercer

and mercer needs a prototype 2 key(prior to the consumtion of the evolved) to seperate P1 mercer form P2 mercer couse lets be honest mercer defeninitly got stronger in thouse 2 years

its would also make scaling the evolved a lot easier as they can still have the comperable to late game P1 mercer and it would mess up any goliath scaling

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with all of DeathNoodles Points.

 

[ByAsura]

I think DeathNoodles's points make senses on James Heller scaling to Goliaths prior to the absorption of one. There are no valid Statements stating of Goliaths having limbs weakness so James Heller should fully powerscale to a Goliath because tanking damages from it, weakening it, damgaging it and defeating it; none of those feats look like Game Mechanics.

There's no statements, but it's pretty obvious. Those areas are smaller and can be destroyed in a few hits, while the armoured sections are almost unaffected by his attacks.

Also, the gameplay arguments referred to the Goliath, not the cutscene.

 

[DeathNoodles]

If there are no statements to confirm that they canonically have such weakpoints in the Prototype lore/narrative, then one can argue that the Goliaths having weakpoints is gameplay mechanics in the same vein that your points about Heller shrugging off a Goliath's hits is gameplay mechanics.

 

[ByAsura]

They literally are weak points by definition.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Both of William Birkin's profiles doesn't even suggest that his big Eye is a weak point that gets affected more than the rest of his body anywhere in his profiles in both of the Resident 2 continuities, even though we literally see the gameplays where you have to shoot his Eye in his various infected forms to deal sufficient damage to him (I don't think I recall that there are even any statements from the RE series that suggests that William's weak point is his big eye in the Resident Evil narrative/lore either), which also similarly suggests that it could be gameplay mechanics for the Goliaths having weakpoints in Prototype like how William Birkin does in Resident Evil as well.

Yes, both Prototype and Resident Evil are both different games, but you like to compare Prototype to other games for some reason, so... Yeah.

 

[ByAsura]

Or, the person who wrote those profiles just forgot to mention it and copy-pasted it onto the remake's weakness section, which seems very likely given how old most of those profiles. Also, if you want to say those weaknesses didn't exist, then how did Heller defeat the Goliaths?

Yes, I compared a very common trope. Also, here's another remake Resident Evil profile that does include a game-play weakness and copy-pastes.

That doesn't change the definition of weak point either. Now, I'll respond to your point from yesterday.

 

[DeathNoodles]

>Or, the person who wrote those profiles just forgot to mention it and copy-pasted it onto the remake's weakness section, which seems very likely given how old most of those profiles. Also, if you want to say those weaknesses didn't exist, then how did Heller defeat the Goliaths?

If there are no statements that suggests that those are canonically their weaknesses in their series' narrative/lore, then it could just simply be game mechanics assumption at worst. As for how Heller managed to defeat the Goliaths... By ripping off their heads? As far as I'm aware, that's literally the only story/narrative scenes that aren't entirely dictated by the Player's actions in the game so that the story can progress.

>Yes, I compared a very common trope. Also, here's another remake Resident Evil profile that does include a game-play weakness and copy-pastes.

Then its weaknesses assumed from gameplay mechanics at the very best, and non-canon weaknesses at worst. If it does have statements to suggest that it's actually their weaknesses in the Resident Evil narrative/lore, then good for it.

>That doesn't change the definition of weak point either. Now, I'll respond to your point from yesterday.

Neither does it change the fact that Heller still ripped off a Goliath's head, or that there are literally no canonical statements in the game that suggests that a Goliath must be targeted in their limbs to be defeated in the Prototype narative/lore. I'll wait for your response then.

 

[ByAsura]

There's nothing to suggest they aren't canonical either. What does this even mean? It really seems like you're clinging onto anything you can. Also, how does Heller beat the Goliaths in that case?

You've assumed that.

Yes, by weakening the Goliaths. Stop making stuff up to fit with your head canon.

 

[DeathNoodles]

>There's nothing to suggest they aren't canonical either. What does this even mean? It really seems like you're clinging onto anything you can. Also, how does Heller beat the Goliaths in that case?

If there aren't narrative/lore statements or in-game quotes that confirm that these are their actual weaknesses in their canon, then the weaknesses' canonical status is questionable - it's as simple as that. As for me seem like I'm clinging onto anything I can? Really, you're stooping down to Ad hominem now?

As for how Heller beat the Goliaths, I literally just said he ripped off their heads. Whatever he did before the head-ripping is entirely dependent on the Player's actions.

>You've assumed that.

And it's not an unfounded assumption until solid evidence debunks it, or at least there must be demonstration where these characters evidently gets significantly affected when these weak points gets damaged in the cutscenes to debunk it. If there are such, then those are their canonical weakpoints which are more than just gameplay mechanics; it's as simple as that.

>Yes, by weakening the Goliaths. Stop making stuff up to fit with your head canon

Which involves inflicting damage, and weakening Goliaths by ripping off their limbs does not mean that their spine also gets weakened in any way when their heads are then ripped off. Also, nice Ad hominem.

 

[Elizhaa]

If there are not valid Statements such as from lore/exposition, we should not use gameplay to get weak points. Like I said before, James tanks the Goliath's AP, weakened Goliath with his attacks, and killed Goliath so he should powerscaled to Goliath from the narrative standspoints. Chip damage is just Game Mechanics.

Guys, let's calm down; agree to disagree, we should not make assumption to each other' points and we should be respectful here.

I still agree with DeathNoodles's point on the Goliath's fight not being Game Mechanics. That said, I will ask for more inputs so we can a better agreements.

 

[DeathNoodles]

If there are not valid Statements such as from lore/exposition, we should not use gameplay to get weak points. Like I said before, James tanks the Goliath's AP, weakened Goliath with his attacks, and killed Goliath so he should powerscaled to Goliath from the narrative standspoints. Chip damage is just Game Mechanics.

I can compromise by agreeing to disagree since this is evidently going around in circles, but I want to see if ByAsura would do the same.

 

[ByAsura]

Just give me a minute. I remember something that does canonically mention this weakness.

 

[DeathNoodles]

If there are actually statements/quotes of such that you have found, then great. It still doesn't change the fact that Heller has ripped off a Goliath's head though, as ripping off its limbs and punching its head a few times should not weaken the spine and its skeletal connection to its head in any way though, but alright then.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm going to address that as well.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Not sure how you would address the head-ripping without explicit quotes/statements of the spine and the head connected to it being weakened (though if it somehow possibly involves Heller himself physically damaging the bones to weaken the Goliaths, it wouldn't have changed anything either way), but alright then.

 

[ByAsura]

I will address it. Anyway, I might take a while today because I'm pretty busy and finding this thing again is very difficult.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Okay. I will wait for it then.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't understand what's the intention here outside of the speed downgrade which I disagree with as WoG doesn't set a specific limit and it's very vague.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

Ok so i have that Bradley fragmentation feat I was talking about yesterday. Am I allowed to show it because it's not from YouTube and I don't want Agent 47 on my ass for doing something I'm not aloud to.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Ok so i have that Bradley fragmentation feat I was talking about yesterday. Am I allowed to show it because it's not from YouTube and I don't want Agent 47 on my ass for doing something I'm not aloud to.

Just as long as the site allows the sharing of videos like YouTube, it should be fine. You can read over the policy of that website if you want to confirm on whether or not you're allowed to share videos from the site if you want to.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Alright, I was asked to take a look at this, though I'll admit I don't fully know the context (since it's been years since I last played a Prototype game).

From what I understand, the question currently is whether or not Heller scales physically to the Goliaths. As far as I'm aware, the arguments against this are that the Goliath's seem to vastly outclass Heller physically and that you need to rely on chip damage to kill them. The arguments for it include the fact that chip damage is usually game mechanics, and the fact that Heller is fully capable of tanking the Goliath's attacks. Do I understand this correctly?

If so, I'd consider myself in favour of scaling the two, though with a slight caveat. There are many examples in games of protagonists beating bosses despite the bosses having far more health and dealing far more damage than the protagonists. In such cases, I think it's acceptable to scale, though it should make note of the fact that these protagonists would downscale from the bosses.

Just, hypothetically, if we said that there was a boss in a game who's AP was 1.5 tons of TNT, and they were physically superior to but still beaten by the protagonist, then we should assume that the protagonist downscales slightly from 1.5 tons.

In other words, if the Goliath's are 8-C, Heller should be considered 8-C to a lesser extent.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

im in full agreement with garth here

 

[DeathNoodles]

Downscaling slightly from an another 8-C is still technically 8-C, so I agree.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

Sorry I cant seem to find a video but I do have this

first Image to prove it's a Bradley, Second to show fragmentation.

 

[Elizhaa]

Downscaling slightly from an another 8-C is still technically 8-C, so I agree.

Yeah, I would be fine with this option, also.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Uh, a gif or video would be more reliable than a mere picture that doesn't even show the fragmentation you were mentioning about.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm perfectly fine with downscaling.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Downscaling from the Goliath until after he consumes it.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

I agree as well.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Still remain in agreement with ByAsura, but I'll wait to see what last thing he wanted to show before just going for whatever gets decided.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

Also I fixed up my last post.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Also I fixed up my last post.

Well, it's difficult to tell since it's not a video or a gif, but it doesn't look like a regular explosion like how the rest of the vehicles (especially the tanks) are generally destroyed in Prototype 1, so it might likely be fragmentation like you mentioned it is as there are notably small pieces of the formerly intact vehicle.

 

[ByAsura]

They aren't reduced to small fragments, those are just pieces of armour plating and bad quality. Though the destroyed husks can be reduced to small fragments by constantly hitting them, but even then it erupts in an explosion, making the feat questionable.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Lmao.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Imo that's just gameplay mechanics and should never be canon

Hilarious tho

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It could probably be a key because they already have force Multipliers.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even though Force Multipliers are pure Gameplay fun, can we talk about the fact that P2 Mercer can eat like 3 of those before losing?