Prototype Downgrades: Part 2

[ByAsura]

I didn't say he couldn't withstand hits (even this doesn't necessarily mean he's Building level, though) just that he doesn't tank them.

 

[ByAsura]

>I mean, by the end of the game, Mercer was able to outright impale Heller as well. The only difference is that Prototype 2 Mid-Game Mercer didn't use one of his sharper shapeshifted weapons to impale Heller in that cutscene, whereas a Goliath has one of its smaller arms being able to impale Heller. It is common in fiction for sharp attacks to pierce through their targets when compared to blunt attacks in the same AP range. And well, those animations are gameplay sequences that are activated and doesn't completely rely on the player's actions, as shown by having to mash specific buttons to perform those actions.

That's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to argue, also Mercer is amped by 8 Evolved (a state I completely agree should be 8-C). Yes, but generally with swords or weapons, it's different here because these are natural protrusions of their body, also here's a guy almost equal to Heller doing very little damage by slicing Heller. That doesn't make them canon, or cutscenes. Finishers just require a click as well, and Heller does an animation.

>The fact that Heller literally needs to rip off their heads in order to progress the story pretty much made those animations canonical to the game's narrative/lore, so I don't see why ripping off a Goliath's head shouldn't be a canonical feat to Heller when it's absolutely necessary in order to progress the story. Also, attacking the head proves nothing about weakening the neck and the connection between one's head and their spine. Punching or kicking someone in the head repeatedly does not weaken the spine to allow one to rip someone's head off their body, since one's spinal connection aren't weakened by mere hits to the face/head, thus that's not how it works.

Now it just seems like you're creating arbitrary boundaries. Heller can rip off their heads in the first place because he's torn them apart, they're in this very same position during the animations. I'll address this later with the weakened overall argument.

>If there are no instances of Blackwatch being able to target a Goliath's limbs, then your points of a Goliath's weak points being "weaker to any extent that it should not be 8-C" loses most of its merit. If it's a possiblity that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack those weak points, I don't see how it disapproves that destroying a Goliath's weak points isn't 8-C. The best you can argue is that a Goliath's weak points is unquantifiably below its best durability, which is 8-C and so is still technically 8-C by being unquantifiably weaker than its best durability, which is as far as I can humour that point. Also, tank shells and helicopter missiles are generally 9-A as well, and you've mentioned that it's a possibility that Blackwatch aren't powerful enough to directly attack these weak points, so there's that.

No it doesn't, it just proves that attacks weaker than Heller's (which can still be 9-A) aren't enough to harm them, which was my point in the first place. You proved what I said with this whole point. "I don't see how it disapproves that destroying a Goliath's weak points isn't 8-C" that's because this isn't the point at all, it was to show how tanks being unable to harm these points (which is questionable to begin with, considering that Goliaths always use their armour to deflect or tank these attacks) doesn't prove they're not much weaker, which is what you were saying.

>Okay... And what are the examples of a character not being able to scale by defeating a supposed higher-tiered character and ripping off their limbs/heads in their game's narrative/lore? If you're talking about random non-canonical match-ups, those tends to be discounted by default due to not being canonical to their franchises' narratives.

No, the point was that it's a staple of games for characters to tear apart weakened opponents, and we see it all the time in Prototype gameplay as well as cutscenes. Where does this non-canonical stuff come from?

Alright. As for Mercer always being shown to beat them to near-death, it could be just be for cinematic/narrative effects (he literally consumed that Janitor in the comics just by touch, whereas the time he consumed Blackwatch soldiers or civilians was when he has to kill them or severely harm them first in the gameplay). And the only viable ways Mercer could've done so was prevented due to the plot. The time Mercer encountered Greene, he was still inexperienced with his abilities and got stunned by her backhanding him. The second time, he planned to kill Greene by injecting the Parasite into her. After that, she was in her Mother form. One could argue that he pretty much doesn't have an opportunity to viably absorb her due to the plot.

A human janitor. Even Heller absorbs humans and lower infected without having to kill them. She had come out of her Mother form, which Mercer had destroyed, also the Supreme Hunter could've absorbed Mercer but didn't. Also, it doesn't even matter if Mercer can absorb people instantly, the point is that characters can be easily torn apart when weakened.

>Possibly: "Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

No, it's because the feat itself is questionable.

 

[DeathNoodles]

>"That's irrelevant, also Mercer is amped by 8 Evolved (a state I completely agree should be 8-C). Yes, but generally with swords or weapons, it's different here because these are natural protrusions of their body, also here's a guy almost equal to Heller doing very little damage by slicing Heller. That doesn't make them canon, or cutscenes. Finishers just require a click as well, and Heller does an animation."

It being natural protrusions of their body wouldn't matter if one does not have the AP to harm their enemies with it (also, swords and weapons still depends on their target's physical strength to inflict them. Tapping a target with a knife does not have the same significant effect as thrusting a knife onto the target. Same thing for tapping a target with a sword when compared to swinging a sword at a target), and it still doesn't disprove the fact that they are still sharp weapons that are capable of piercing through targets more than they have shown with blunt attacks is similar AP range, which is common in fiction. It is common in fiction for even characters with claws that are able to piece through their targets or cut off their limbs when compared to their blunt attacks with the same AP range. Also, Koenig's blades was still shown to be able to pierce through Heller skins, as shown by Heller bleeding blood biomass out of him.

>"Now it just seems like you're creating arbitrary boundaries. Heller can rip off their heads in the first place because he's torn them apart, they're in this very same position during the animations. I'll address this later."

Yes, and physically attacking someone's face/head does not in any way weaken their head's connection to their spines. This is basic biology, and we don't have enough explicit quotes/statements to prove that the characters from Prototype are exempt from this.

>"No it doesn't, it just proves that attacks weaker than Heller's (which can still be 9-A) aren't enough to harm them, which was my point in the first place. You proved what I said with this whole point. "I don't see how it disapproves that destroying a Goliath's weak points isn't 8-C" that's because this isn't the point at all, it was to show how tanks being unable to harm these points (which is questionable to begin with, considering that Goliaths always use their armour to deflect or tank these attacks) doesn't prove they're not much weaker, which is what you were saying."

No, my points are the fact that attacking a Goliath's points shouldn't be below 8-C when tank shells and helicopters missiles (which are 9-A) has failed to harm such, which proves that the tank shells and helicopter missiles could be much weaker as proven by the gap between 9-A and 8-C, thus Heller being able to harm a Goliath and rip off their limbs/heads should make him 8-C physically even if it's at least to a lesser extent.

>"No, the point was that it's a staple of games for characters to tear apart weakened opponents. Where does this non-canonical stuff come from?"

The non-canonical stuff comes from a character only defeating an another character in gameplay with no narrative/lore to suggest that these events actually occur. Yes, it's a staple of games for characters to tear apart weakened characters, but that doesn't disprove that the victor can't scale to similar AP to the opponents they have defeated to at least a slightly lesser extent. It wouldn't make sense for a 9-B character to defeat a 5-B character by physically weakening them and then ripping off their heads/limbs without being 5-B to a similar enough extent as well.

>"A human janitor. Even Heller absorbs humans and lower infected without having to kill them. She had come out of her Mother form, which Mercer had destroyed, also the Supreme Hunter could've absorbed Mercer but didn't."

In Prototype 1 game, Alex literally kills even helpless targets such civilians in order to absorb them. Mercer being able to absorb a human target, and powerful infected such as the Evolved in Prototype 2, was to show that needing to absorb them in the Prototype 1 game was most likely due to cinematic/narrative effects as his shown narrative/lore feats contradicts otherwise. That was my point.

>"No, it's because the feat itself is questionable."

I don't see what's questionable about physically ripping off someone's head with their bare hands, and them being weakened to laying on the ground is irrelevant as physically attacking someone's face/head does not weaken their head's skeletal connection to their spine.

 

[ByAsura]

You seemed to have ignored the clip I showed. Also, this never was the point of the argument, it was that impaling Heller should wind him more than Mercer's attack, which didn't nowhere near the damage.

Basic biology in real life. This is both a fighting game and fictional trope, read an Invincible comic and you'll see what I mean.

Why can't they be. Tanks and missiles are a level of 9-A below Heller, it's that simple.

These characters go from rivialling their opponents to tearing them apart because they're weakened. That's what I'm trying to show you.

Even in cutscenes he has to do this, so it's not just cinematic and Mercer doesn't even absorb characters like this until the next game, and even then he had to envelop them in tentacles.

The fact that Heller can proves they're weakened. You even said before that characters shouldn't be able to rip each other apart if they're 2-5x stronger.

 

[DeathNoodles]

>"You seemed to have ignored the clip I showed. Also, this never was the point of the argument, it was that impaling Heller should wind him more than Mercer's attack, which didn't nowhere near the damage."

I've already made my points about reactions to attacks that doesn't cause visible damage for the viewers (ones that causes a reaction in the target to signify that they got affected in a significant way when compared to the target having no reaction to signify that they are affected by the attack), and the clip you linked has shown that Koenig was able to draw blood from Heller (there was even a bit of blood pouring from Heller from each hit from the blades as well), thus proving my point of sharp attacks being able to pierce through their targets more often than blunt attacks of the same AP range as a common trope in fiction. Still, the fact that there are no cutscenes of Mid-Game Heller being winded from impalement outside of the gameplay doesn't disapprove anything for Heller scaling to a Goliath, just that the Goliaths doesn't have enough cutscene/narrative feats of affecting Heller significantly outside the gameplay, which Mercer has shown.

>"Basic biology in real life. This is both a fighting game and fictional trope, read an Invincible comic and you'll see what I mean."

Yes, and this site applies real life logic in order to quantify their capabilities and feats properly. Unless you're arguing that a previously 9-B character being able to physically weake (including physically striking their enemies down into submission) and rip off the limbs/head of a higher-tiered character such as a 5-B character doesn't make them qualify for 5-B even to a slightly lesser extent? Given that such feats are apparently so common, we can simply just give the character similar AP to the superhuman opponents they have ripped off the limbs/heads off to a lesser extent to make things simpler and spare us some unnecessary headaches.

>"Why can't they be. Tanks and missiles are a level of 9-A below Heller, it's that simple."

Yes, but the fact that Heller is able to even harm a Goliath when no other enemies have done so (and not even shown that they have done so to their weakpoints like you've said, as shown by the Goliath being dead in the predator antigen being completely and utterly intact), and is able to sever their limbs and rip of their head should prove that the weakpoints of a Goliath's shouldn't be below 8-C since there isn't any examples that contradicts such. And given Heller was growing stronger and stronger from every being he has absorbed, I don't see why Heller wouldn't eventually turn out strong enough to sever the limbs of a Goliath and later physically rip off their heads, thus it wouldn't contradict a Goliath being 8-C and Heller scaling to them to a tad lesser extent.

>"These characters go from rivialling their opponents to tearing them apart because they're weakened. That's what I'm trying to show you."

If being able to rival their opponents is going toe-to-toe to their opponents, I don't see why they don't physically scale based on that. And yes, tearing them apart seems to be a common trope, but I don't see why tearing off the limbs/head of their opponents shouldn't give similar AP to some extent even if such opponents are weakened (as the skeletal connections between one's limbs/heads to their bodies is a part of their overall durability. Given we have no calculations values of how strong a superhuman character's skeletal connection is compared to their overall durability, we tend to scale such to their overall durability to make things simpler). That's also what I'm trying to explain to you.

>"Even in cutscenes he has to do this, so it's not just cinematic and Mercer doesn't even absorb characters like this until the next game, and even then he had to envelop them in tentacles."

In the Prototype 1 comic, he literally absorbed that janitor via touch, and that Prototype 1 comic was supposed to take place before the end of Prototype 1 game (as shown by Elizabeth Greene and General Randall being alive). So you're not correct about Mercer not absorbing characters like this until Prototype 2.

>"The fact that Heller can proves they're weakened. You even said before that characters shouldn't be able to rip each other apart if they're 2-5x stronger"

Yes, they're not supposed to be able to do that even if they're 2-5x stronger. But given how common such feats is in fiction like you've said, I guess we have no choice but to scale such AP to the overall durability of the opponents the characters has ripped off the limbs/heads off to make things simpler, even with my grievance of such feats.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll respond tomorrow. Tbh, I've all but lost interest in this thread.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Okay. Well, I have assignments next week for my school campus, and especially have tests tomorrow and a few days after that. So, it would take me a while for me to respond to your replies once you do, but I would do so eventually so once you've sent them.

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura

Could you summarise your conclusions here in an easy to understand manner please? That way me, Elizhaa, Julian, Calaca, and DMUA might be able to evaluate them.

 

[ByAsura]

Basically, harming the Goliath is questionable at best. I'll try summarise them better when I respond to noodles.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[ByAsura]

Once again, I'm going to say Heller can be Small Building level possibly/likely (the two can be interchangeable) Building level.

I've already made my points about reactions to attacks that doesn't cause visible damage for the viewers (ones that causes a reaction in the target to signify that they got affected in a significant way when compared to the target having no reaction to signify that they are affected by the attack), and the clip you linked has shown that Koenig was able to draw blood from Heller (there was even a bit of blood pouring from Heller from each hit from the blades as well), thus proving my point of sharp attacks being able to pierce through their targets more often than blunt attacks of the same AP range as a common trope in fiction. Still, the fact that there are no cutscenes of Mid-Game Heller being winded from impalement outside of the gameplay doesn't disapprove anything for Heller scaling to a Goliath, just that the Goliaths doesn't have enough cutscene/narrative feats of affecting Heller significantly outside the gameplay, which Mercer has shown.

Even still, these "unseen damages" (if they exist) are nothing close to the actual damages that we can directly confirm Goliath inficts on Heller. You are right about piercing damage to an extent, but Koenig only drew blood, while you were arguing that characters can easily impale each other.

The Goliath can also smash Heller's shields with any one of its attacks (except deflecting Heller off its armour, I believe, but that isn't truly an attack), something only the Juggernaut's downwards spikes and amped Mercer's heavy attacks can accomplish.

Yes, and this site applies real life logic in order to quantify their capabilities and feats properly. Unless you're arguing that a previously 9-B character being able to physically weake (including physically striking their enemies down into submission) and rip off the limbs/head of a higher-tiered character such as a 5-B character doesn't make them qualify for 5-B even to a slightly lesser extent? Given that such feats are apparently so common, we can simply just give the character similar AP to the superhuman opponents they have ripped off the limbs/heads off to a lesser extent to make things simpler and spare us some unnecessary headaches.

No, it applies real life logic to calcs and striking strength = durability (with that even having some exceptions), if it used real life logic then things like FTL speed wouldn't exist. Also, this wiki blatantly ignores conservation of energy on purpose.

• We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well.

I'm not arguing that Heller's orders of magnitude below a Goliath, I'm saying it doesn't mean he's in the same tier. Yes, generally because these characters who rip each other apart in this manner are directly comparable, such as Mortal Kombat characters and Power of Hope Kratos. The Goliath overpowers Heller simply by moving and hitting the ground, a feat Mercer has never replicated even at his best.

Yes, but the fact that Heller is able to even harm a Goliath when no other enemies have done so (and not even shown that they have done so to their weakpoints like you've said, as shown by the Goliath being dead in the predator antigen being completely and utterly intact), and is able to sever their limbs and rip of their head should prove that the weakpoints of a Goliath's shouldn't be below 8-C since there isn't any examples that contradicts such. And given Heller was growing stronger and stronger from every being he has absorbed, I don't see why Heller wouldn't eventually turn out strong enough to sever the limbs of a Goliath and later physically rip off their heads, thus it wouldn't contradict a Goliath being 8-C and Heller scaling to them to a tad lesser extent.

We don't know how Blackwatch killed them, so we can't just remove the weak points and armour. It doesn't prove it either. I don't care that you can't see the reason why, there is a reason and that's because Heller, who's portrayed as far weaker in every single encounter, can damage them, whereas he can't do much to their actual armour.

If being able to rival their opponents is going toe-to-toe to their opponents, I don't see why they don't physically scale based on that. And yes, tearing them apart seems to be a common trope, but I don't see why tearing off the limbs/head of their opponents shouldn't give similar AP to some extent even if such opponents are weakened (as the skeletal connections between one's limbs/heads to their bodies is a part of their overall durability. Given we have no calculations values of how strong a superhuman character's skeletal connection is compared to their overall durability, we tend to scale such to their overall durability to make things simpler). That's also what I'm trying to explain to you.

Yes, and I'm trying to explain they don't physically scale, the Goliaths are just weakened. You keep saying it's part of their overall durability, but in all situations where a character is torn apart in Prototype they're heavily injured or near-death, and low on biomass; as I've brought up, Mercer goes from easily overpowering Heller with hammerfists to having them ripped off once he's weakened. Here's another example of Mercer slicing the Supreme Hunter in half after he's weakened it. In this case, I think you need to give evidence for the opposite rather than just dismiss it.

In the Prototype 1 comic, he literally absorbed that janitor via touch, and that Prototype 1 comic was supposed to take place before the end of Prototype 1 game (as shown by Elizabeth Greene and General Randall being alive). So you're not correct about Mercer not absorbing characters like this until Prototype 2.

I said he couldn't absorb characters of similar strength with a touch in Prototype 1, but he can absorb humans because they're far inferior. Mercer never outright absorbs an infected in this manner, the only similar case is in Prototype 2, and that's when he absorbs Evolved far weaker than himself by using swarms of tenticles that you could argue is the equivalent of simply absorbing someone with an extension chord. Even in the P2 comics, he kills people first rather tha absorb them directly.

Plus, where not even arguing that Mercer can't absorb people like this, the main argument was that most of the people Heller absorbs are weakened beforehand, which is why he can carve them up so easily. Mercer vs. Greene was just an example.

@Ant To summarise my points, Heller is completely overpowered by the Goliath (which is portrayed as more powerful than every infected, short of end-game Mercer himself) at every point in the game, who only succeds at dealing any real damage by targeting weak points and tearing off its head while heavily weakened, which characters generally are once they've recieved heavy damage in Prototype.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Welp, guess you actually did kept to your word that you would respond in this day. Fortunately for me, my assignments and tests got pushed next week. So, here comes my response:

Once again, I'm going to say Heller can be Small Building level possibly/likely (the two can be interchangeable) Building level.

Well, you seem to be willing to accept "likely Building Level" based on that sentence (it doesn't change that the majority of users in this thread has agreed for Heller being 8-C to a slightly lesser extent via physically defeating a Goliath, but eh). Is that the case?

Even still, these "unseen damages" (if they exist) are nothing close to the actual damages that we can directly confirm Goliath inficts on Heller. You are right about piercing damage to an extent, but Koenig only drew blood, while you were arguing that characters can easily impale each other.

The Goliath can also smash Heller's shields with any one of its attacks (except deflecting Heller off its armour, I believe, but that isn't truly an attack), something only the Juggernaut's downwards spikes and amped Mercer's heavy attacks can accomplish.

To be honest, those "damages" has only ever been inflicted within gameplay, never outside of that like in the cutscenes like Mercer's did. As for a Goliath impaling Heller with one of its arm, that still doesn't change my point about piercing damage compared to blunt force damage of the same AP range (which you have agreed to a certain extent). One can argue that Mercer winding Heller could be comparable or even greater than the times the characters got impaled just based on Heller's reaction... Honestly, do you think Blacklight characters like Mercer and Heller would actually show significant reactions to having their bodies pierced through, especially when we [see Mercer being able to move around when disguised as a Blackwatch colonel and regenerate with no reactions to signify that he actually got weakened/significantly affected by the large hole in his head caused by a bullet? Blacklight characters such as Mercer are known to have feats of superhuman resilience and endurance in their narrative/lore (not just in the gameplay), so in that vein, one could argue that impalement/piercing damage logically wouldn't actually give them any reason to react in a way that they are significantly affected by them. And yes, Koenig only drew blood, but it has still proven my point about piercing damage being known to go through their target's skin when compared to blunt attacks of the same AP range. And my intent wasn't just arguing for impalement, but piercing damage in general, and Koenig drawing blood from Heller just proves my point.

You know, you have argued that Heller should not physically scale to a Goliath because of Game Mechanics, but then you use a Goliath's attacks affecting Heller in the gameplay as examples of their feats, and why Heller being able to shrug them off should be discounted even though a Goliath smashing through Heller's shields could also be discounted as Game Mechanics in the same logic due to only being feats from gameplay (and not cutscenes or killing/finisher animations)... That kind of goes against your point.

Still, Heller being able to physically rip off a Goliath's head should be more than just elements of Game Mechanics when we literally see a killing/fighting animation (which tends to be interchangeable to cutscene animations in the narrative sense) of him killing them in such manners every time. The fact that Heller literally commented on ripping off a Goliath's limbs off should be canonical to the Prototype lore/narrative, and that killing a Goliath is literally the only way to progress the story, should not have Heller's feats of being regarded as mere Game Mechanics.

No, it applies real life logic to calcs and striking strength = durability (with that even having some exceptions), if it used real life logic then things like FTL speed wouldn't exist. Also, this wiki blatantly ignores conservation of energy on purpose.

• We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well.

I'm not arguing that Heller's orders of magnitude below a Goliath, I'm saying it doesn't mean he's in the same tier. Yes, generally because these characters who rip each other apart in this manner are directly comparable, such as Mortal Kombat characters and Power of Hope Kratos. The Goliath overpowers Heller simply by moving and hitting the ground, a feat Mercer has never replicated even at his best.

Yes, the Goliath overpowering Heller simply by moving and hitting the ground... Which has only been done in the gameplay, thus can be argued as Game Mechanics. The fact that there was no explicit statements/quotes that suggests that the Goliath is physically superior to Heller in the Prototype narrative/lore doesn't really help your point of it being any more than just Game Mechanics (in fact, the guidebooks that you have shown has only state that a Goliath as "lightning fast attacks" and "nigh-impenetrable" armour, and nothing else such as being physically superior to Heller to a good extent).

Plus, Heller has gotten stronger by who knows how much in the Prototype narrative/lore when consuming more Evolved and countless infected after that Goliath fight, and the Prototype narrative/lore explicitly states that every living being that characters like Heller and Mercer consumes makes them stronger. Heller could've gotten stronger by then, and the player struggling to combat a Goliath even with all upgrades and being at the end of the game could simply be argued as game mechanics, like my points above.

We don't know how Blackwatch killed them, so we can't just remove the weak points and armour. It doesn't prove it either. I don't care that you can't see the reason why, there is a reason and that's because Heller, who's portrayed as far weaker in every single encounter, can damage them, whereas he can't do much to their actual armour.

Well, it still doesn't excuse the fact that are literally no explicit statements/quotes of a Goliath having weak points in the Prototype narrative/lore. As long as there aren't any of such, one can easily argue that a Goliath having any weak points at all could simply be elements of Game Mechanics, and it wouldn't even be truly disapproved due to lack of quotes/statements of such actually be canonical to the narrative/lore of the game rather than the gameplay mechanics. And yes, Heller being portrayed as weaker in every single encounter... in the gameplay. And unlike most elements of gameplay, killing/finishing animations and cutscenes tends to be used as valid examples of a character's capabilities due to them being linked to the narrative/lore of the game and are generally outside of the player's control.

Yes, and I'm trying to explain they don't physically scale, the Goliaths are just weakened. You keep saying it's part of their overall durability, but in all situations where a character is torn apart in Prototype they're heavily injured or near-death, and low on biomass; as I've brought up, Mercer goes from easily overpowering Heller with hammerfists to having them ripped off once he's weakened. Here's another example of Mercer slicing the Supreme Hunter in half after he's weakened it. In this case, I think you need to give evidence for the opposite rather than just dismiss it.

Mercer literally had no issue regenerating his arms until the very last moment, so Mercer being weakened enough for his durability to somehow lessen to the point that Heller can rip them off is quite a questionable assumption. And Mercer literally overpowers you when you try to use the same type of weapon that he is currently using, even stage where the animation sequence where the arm-ripping is present, regardless of how low Mercer's health bar is in that fight just as long as it's not low enough to trigger the sequence of Heller wrapping Mercer with his whipfist and whipping him back to start the arm-ripping all off. Mercer even literally tells you to stop using the same shapeshifted weapons as he is and that you should move on and try other weapons against him rather than using the same ones as he is currently using when you play as Heller]. That proves nothing about Mercer being able to go from being able to easily overpower Heller and then getting his limbs severed later when Mercer can literally do those actions on any stage of the game before Mercer's defeat sequence that led to arm ripping/severing; so I highly doubt that proves anything about the Prototype characters' durability being decreased after being "weakened", especially based on that.

Also, that scene where Mercer sliced it apart was when Mercer also cut off the Supreme Hunter's arm, with no indication that the Supreme Hunter's durability has decreased to the extent that it can "easily be ripped off by characters of comparable strength" when Mercer literally did threw the same punches on top of the Supreme Hunter until the Supreme Hunter's defeat sequence (which didn't show how it got its arm sliced off, but given that Mercer later sliced off its upper body with his blade, it can be heavily implied that he sliced its arm off with his blade weapon ability). And you want me to give evidence when all of it is just game mechanics and not something like cutscenes or killing/finishing/action animations? Fine

Before that happened, you are able to grapple onto the Supreme Hunter and repeatedly punch its head on top of it before it was able to easily throw you off, even near the very last stage of the game when it was able to throw you off with the same ease as before when you're playing as Alex. The Supreme Hunter was [always kneeling down in the same position each time, even near the end and Mercer always climbs on top of it to bash its head each time. As far as one can see, that proves nothing about the Supreme Hunter only getting its severed after being "weakened", when it shows no indication of actually getting any physically weaker as shown by it being able to physically toss Mercer away every time, all of with the same ease as before.

I said he couldn't absorb characters of similar strength with a touch in Prototype 1, but he can absorb humans because they're far inferior. Mercer never outright absorbs an infected in this manner, the only similar case is in Prototype 2, and that's when he absorbs Evolved far weaker than himself by using swarms of tenticles that you could argue is the equivalent of simply absorbing someone with an extension chord. Even in the P2 comics, he kills people first rather tha absorb them directly.

Plus, where not even arguing that Mercer can't absorb people like this, the main argument was that most of the people Heller absorbs are weakened beforehand, which is why he can carve them up so easily. Mercer vs. Greene was just an example.

He literally was about to do the same to Heller without needing to kill Heller first or anything (or whatever the hell he was doing, since it is likely that Mercer was just controlling the virus in Heller's body. However, given that there are tendrils sprouting out of Heller, it is a very likely possibility that Mercer was trying to consume Heller via touch as well). And there is no explicit statement that he can't absorb characters with similar strength with a touch in Prototype 1 or Prototype 2, and you just straight up assumed that is the case when there is no explicit statements or quotes of such. As far as I'm aware, that might as well be a Durability Negation ability that doesn't actually depend on the AP of his targets.

Fair enough on Mercer actually being able to absorb his targets like this, and Heller not being able to do the same before he consumed Mercer.


@Antvasima For the summary of my points:

James Heller defeated the Goliath by physically weakening it (via physically striking it down into submission at that), severed its limbs by physically striking at it (which there are no explicit statements/quotes that suggests that the weak points of the Goliath are actually canonical to the game's lore/narrative, thus it can be considered as Game Mechanics for it having weak points that makes it somehow less than 8-C durability when compared to the rest of the body that ByAsura seems to be arguing with), and physically ripping off the Goliath's head with his bare hands after putting it in a heavily stunned state (which the summary of my points is that physically striking at the head should not weaken the connection of one's head to their spine in any way, which ByAsura was against) should overall make James Heller scale to 8-C, even to a slightly lesser extent of 8-C than the Goliath is.

Alex Mercer gets 8-C scaling for his second last key by winding mid-game James Heller with two of his hits, evidently making James Heller panting and being stunned without any chance to retaliate due to the power of Alex Mercer's hits, which was the same version of James Heller who shortly fought the Goliath right after without getting stronger in that point in time and defeated it.

The majority of the thread agrees with the 8-C scaling to Goliaths for James Heller and Alex Mercer, though perhaps to a slightly lesser extent of 8-C for James Heller's scaling to Goliaths. Since I doubt that there would be any compromise or resolution via agree to disagree between me and ByAsura for our points any time soon, so it might be best to let the majority decide on of the changes should apply for 8-C downscaling to get this thread done with as quickly as possible.

The list of people who agrees with the downscaling 8-C for James Heller and Alex Mercer's second last key:

DarkGrath, Sir Sun Man, DeathNoodles (me), Elizhaa, The Wright Way, XSOULOFCINDERX, and Fupdumpthegump.

The list of people who disagrees with downscaling 8-C scaling:

ByAsura, LSirLancelotDuLacl.

 

[ByAsura]

Is that due to the corona virus? The same thing happened to me quite recently.

>Well, you seem to be willing to accept "likely Building Level" based on that sentence (it doesn't change that the majority of users in this thread has agreed for Heller being 8-C to a slightly lesser extent via physically defeating a Goliath, but eh). Is that the case?

Likely at the very most. That's why I'm mostly advocating for Small Building level.

>To be honest, those "damages" has only ever been inflicted within gameplay, never outside of that like in the cutscenes like Mercer's did. As for a Goliath impaling Heller with one of its arm, that still doesn't change my point about piercing damage compared to blunt force damage of the same AP range (which you have agreed to a certain extent).

Completely impaling Heller right through his torso is different to shooting or hitting him with a knife. Look at the surface area of the Goliath's claw, it's much larger than something like an Evolved's blades or a bullet. It'd require a lot of blunt force trauma.

>One can argue that Mercer winding Heller could be comparable or even greater than the times the characters got impaled just based on Heller's reaction... Honestly, do you think Blacklight characters like Mercer and Heller would actually show significant reactions to having their bodies pierced through, especially when we see Mercer being able to move around when disguised as a Blackwatch colonel and regenerate with no reactions to signify that he actually got weakened/significantly affected by the large hole in his head caused by a bullet?

Here's Mercer getting cut into (not even impaled) by Heller, a weaker character, and a being stunned for a much longer period of time. It's obviously gameplay mechanics. Even bio-bombs do virtually nothing to Heller.

>And yes, Koenig only drew blood, but it has still proven my point about piercing damage being known to go through their target's skin when compared to blunt attacks of the same AP range. And my intent wasn't just arguing for impalement, but piercing damage in general, and Koenig drawing blood from Heller just proves my point.

It doesn't prove your point, they're small cuts. It's the equivalent of a person using a knife to cut another person.

>Yes, the Goliath overpowering Heller simply by moving and hitting the ground... Which has only been done in the gameplay, thus can be argued as Game Mechanics. The fact that there was no explicit statements/quotes that suggests that the Goliath is physically superior to Heller in the Prototype narrative/lore doesn't really help your point of it being any more than just Game Mechanics (in fact, the guidebooks that you have shown has only state that a Goliath as "lightning fast attacks" and "nigh-impenetrable" armour, and nothing else such as being physically superior to Heller to a good extent).

This argument falls apart because, as you've said a lot, we don't know anything about the Goliath's power. Even the animations you flaunt are gameplay mechanics.

>Still, Heller being able to physically rip off a Goliath's head should be more than just elements of Game Mechanics when we literally see a killing/fighting animation (which tends to be interchangeable to cutscene animations in the narrative sense) of him killing them in such manners every time. The fact that Heller literally commented on ripping off a Goliath's limbs off should be canonical to the Prototype lore/narrative, and that killing a Goliath is literally the only way to progress the story, should not have Heller's feats of being regarded as mere Game Mechanics.

A killing/fighting animation is gameplay, otherwise it wouldn't be and play out the same in every situation or be activated by a button prompt. Canonical cutscenes aren't, they're automatic, and having no player involvement is completely and totally irrelevant. Where's the quote about him ripping off it's limbs? Because that seems like it directly justifies what happens in gameplay.

>Plus, Heller has gotten stronger by who knows how much in the Prototype narrative/lore when consuming more Evolved and countless infected after that Goliath fight, and the Prototype narrative/lore explicitly states that every living being that characters like Heller and Mercer consumes makes them stronger. Heller could've gotten stronger by then, and the player struggling to combat a Goliath even with all upgrades and being at the end of the game could simply be argued as game mechanics, like my points above.

I'm not arguing for end-game Heller. As I've said, I fully agree that Heller is probably stronger than a Goliath or scales to it by the time he fought Mercer. I'm talking about his Green Zone mission and the base mission in the Red Zone.

>Mercer literally had no issue regenerating his arms until the very last moment, so Mercer being weakened enough for his durability to somehow lessen to the point that Heller can rip them off is quite a questionable assumption.

It's not, that just means he could regenerate, which you argued needed little to no biomass in the last thread. Plus, Mercer is more than capable of regenerating from a nuke if he absorbs a crow, and potentially even a puddle.

>And Mercer literally overpowers you when you try to use the same type of weapon that he is currently using, even stage where the animation sequence where the arm-ripping is present, regardless of how low Mercer's health bar is in that fight just as long as it's not low enough to trigger the sequence of Heller wrapping Mercer with his whipfist and whipping him back to start the arm-ripping all off.

The fact that Heller can overpower Mercer means he's weakened, also what do you mean by this point? Do you mean Mercer can overpower him if he fails the sequence, which literally means he's doing nothing?

>Mercer even literally tells you to stop using the same shapeshifted weapons as he is and that you should move on and try other weapons against him rather than using the same ones as he is currently using when you play as Heller. That proves nothing about Mercer being able to go from being able to easily overpower Heller and then getting his limbs severed later when Mercer can literally do those actions on any stage of the game before Mercer's defeat sequence that led to arm ripping/severing; so I highly doubt that proves anything about the Prototype characters' durability being decreased after being "weakened", especially based on that.

That literally means nothing. If anything, it proves how easily he overpowered Heller before this.

>Before that happened, you are able to grapple onto the Supreme Hunter and repeatedly punch its head on top of it before it was able to easily throw you off, even near the very last stage of the game when it was able to throw you off with the same ease as before when you're playing as Alex. The Supreme Hunter was always kneeling down in the same position each time, even near the end and Mercer always climbs on top of it to bash its head each time. As far as one can see, that proves nothing about the Supreme Hunter only getting its severed after being "weakened", when it shows no indication of actually getting any physically weaker as shown by it being able to physically toss Mercer away every time, all of with the same ease as before.

And yet Mercer never cuts him in half and the Supreme Hunter is never gushing blood. I'm sure that's because you're seeing what you want to see at this point.

>He literally was about to do the same to Heller without needing to kill Heller first or anything (or whatever the hell he was doing, since it is likely that Mercer was just controlling the virus in Heller's body. However, given that there are tendrils sprouting out of Heller, it is a very likely possibility that Mercer was trying to consume Heller via touch as well). And there is no explicit statement that he can't absorb characters with similar strength with a touch in Prototype 1 or Prototype 2, and you just straight up assumed that is the case when there is no explicit statements or quotes of such. As far as I'm aware, that might as well be a Durability Negation ability that doesn't actually depend on the AP of his targets.

Notice something about that scene? He's using tendrils and Heller is much, much weaker than him, just like when he absorbed the Evolved, so this proves nothing, especially since we don't even know that Mercer even was trying to absorb Heller, as you've admitted yourself. There's no explicit statement that he can absorb comparable characters in Prototype 1, the only evidence you have is from a comic where he absorbs a Human and a scene from Prototype 2 that hardly proves your point. Anyway, I think we should drop this point, since you agreed "on Mercer actually being able to absorb his targets like this, and Heller not being able to do the same before he consumed Mercer." It takes one less point out of this whole argument. It was also meaningless, on my part, to begin with.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I'm not sure if my illness is due to Corona Virus, but I sure hope not. I don't want my education to get negatively impacted.

>Likely at the very most. That's why I'm mostly advocating for Small Building level.

Alright. Still doesn't change the fact that the majority in this thread in this thread has agreed with 8-C ratings for Mid-Game Heller via downscaling slightly from Goliaths, and second last key of Mercer being 8-C via scaling to Mid-Game Heller, but alright then.

>"Completely impaling Heller right through his torso is different to shooting or hitting him with a knife. Look at the surface area of the Goliath's claw, it's much larger than something like an Evolved's blades or a bullet. It'd require a lot of blunt force trauma."

Have you seen that wound in Mercer's head from Prototype 1, where he has moved behind General Randall without any signs of being significantly affected by the large hole in his head? That's similar enough to impaling, with the only difference between the two being that bullets tends to leave the body most of the time while the object impaling tends to stays in the body until it's manually removed. You can argue that there's a difference between impaling and being shot through due to size in the objects piercing through the targets, but that's all semantics in the end for superhuman beings such as the Prototype characters. And my point was that characters like Mercer and Heller has superhuman endurance and resilience, having much more resilience and endurance than ordinary being's would, but not actually having their resilience being absolute as they can be significantly affected by beings comparable to them.

>"Here's Mercer getting cut into (not even impaled) by Heller, a weaker character, and a being stunned for a much longer period of time. It's obviously gameplay mechanics. Even bio-bombs do virtually nothing to Heller."

That's literally just Mercer getting off the ground slowly... And the fact that you don't even get the option to attack Mercer when he's getting up slowly in the brief cutscene heavily implies that it can very well be cinematic effects. I don't think that proves anything.

>"It doesn't prove your point, they're small cuts. It's the equivalent of a person using a knife to cut another person."

Against beings with superhuman endurance and resilience such as the Blacklight characters, I don't think the difference between them matters much, especially when Mercer did just fine moving around with a huge hole in his head and not having any reactions that he's significantly affected by such a wound. And such superhuman resilience can still be worn down by those comparable to them, such as when the Supreme Hunter borderline strangulated Mercer (though not like he would actually die from that based on his feats anyways, but it shows he got significantly affected by Supreme Hunter's grip) by lifting him up by the neck or when Mercer's hits winded Heller.

>"This argument falls apart because, as you've said a lot, we don't know anything about the Goliath's power. Even the animations you flaunt are gameplay mechanics."

If you mean the animations where Heller ripped off the Goliath's head, that's more than gameplay mechanics as they are actually shown to be part of the Prototype narrative/lore. And Goliath not having any combat feats outside of the gameplay doesn't excuse the fact that a Goliath engaging in combat has only ever been shown in gameplay, thus it can be argued that a Goliath being physically stronger than Heller to a noticeable extent being Game Mechanics. The fact that Heller got stronger after consuming more Evolved and countless infected, and defeated end-game Prototype 2 mercer, yet struggled against a Goliath around the end of the game also heavily imply that it is the result of Game Mechanics. Like you've said, Heller should be stronger or scales to a Goliath by the time he fought Mercer.

>"A killing/fighting animation is gameplay, otherwise it wouldn't be and play out the same in every situation or be activated by a button prompt. Canonical cutscenes aren't, they're automatic, and having no player involvement is completely and totally irrelevant. Where's the quote about him ripping off it's limbs? Because that seems like it directly justifies what happens in gameplay."

I'm pretty sure it does, especially with statements/quotes to support them. As for the quote:

Heller's quote

[Heller, after cutting off one of the Goliath's limbs]. James Heller: "Yeah, I'll take you apart--one piece at a time!"

There's even that quote from that soldier.

[After you severed the Goliath's leg off as James Heller]. Soldier: "Holy Shit! That's James Heller! He just took one of the creature's legs off!"

These are enough proof that Heller severing the Goliath's limbs off, and then physically rip its head off with his bare hands as canonical to the Prototype narrative/lore.

>"I'm not arguing for end-game Heller. As I've said, I fully agree that Heller is probably stronger than a Goliath or scales to it by the time he fought Mercer. I'm talking about his Green Zone mission and the base mission in the Red Zone."

Like my points above, that gives the version of Heller who defeated a Goliath a scaling to 8-C (the Mid-Game version) via physically defeating them with his physical strikes and physically ripping its head off. And I've pointed out about Heller struggling against a Goliath in the gameplay even with all upgrades and being at around the end of the game, thus it can just be gameplay mechanics for a Goliath being able to easily overpower Heller (especially the one around the end-game with all upgrades).

>"It's not, that just means he could regenerate, which you argued needed little to no biomass in the last thread. Plus, Mercer is more than capable of regenerating from a nuke if he absorbs a crow, and potentially even a puddle."

Yes, and he didn't show that he was panting, heavily in pain or anything to show that he's significantly affected. It's only after the last arm ripping that Mercer stopped regenerating and started grunting out in pain for some reason, despite how easily he regenerated his arms a couple of times before. Still doesn't disapprove my points about superhuman resilience and endurance though, and that resilience being worn down by Blacklight characters comparable to each other in Prototype. Again, that is a questionable assumption as it doesn't prove anything (especially explicitly) about durability decreasing for the Blacklight characters throughout the fights of the game.

>"The fact that Heller can overpower Mercer means he's weakened, also what do you mean by this point? Do you mean Mercer can overpower him if he fails the sequence, which literally means he's doing nothing?"

What I mean by this point is that Mercer literally is able to overpower you at any time in the game if you use the same weapon ability as he's using, regardless of how closer to "beating the final boss fight of the game" you are, right until Mercer's defeat sequence that led to the arm-ripping. This proves that these characters should not have gotten weaker at all, such as for their durability, especially for the Blacklight characters getting weaker durability after the course of the fight upon "being weakened" without explicit quote/statements backing them up.

>"That literally means nothing. If anything, it proves how easily he overpowered Heller before this."

Did you see my point that Mercer is literally able to overpower Heller if you decided to use the same weapon abilities as Mercer right before the defeat sequence? That also implies that Heller can't "overpower" Mercer using such weapons, thus the examples you've provided about Mercer overpowering Heller proves nothing about Mercer getting weaker to the extent that his durability decreases (especially in a way that makes them easily vulnerable to getting limbs/heads cut off) when there is no explicit quotes/statements suggesting such. Notice how Heller is using claws to counteract Mercer's blade for the first arm rip? notice how Heller is using Blade to counteract Mercer's whipfist? Heller was deliberately using his shapeshifted weapon abilities so that he's not using the same weapon abilities as Mercer is using, which implies that he's doing so in order to not get countered and overpowered by Mercer. And even when Heller used his Hammerfists at the end, he only used it to block and not try to strike Mercer, such as grabbing Mercer's arms right before ripping it off (which is also a method which prevented Mercer from overpowering you for when you try to attack Mercer later on by using the same weapon abilities as him). This heavily implies that Mercer could've counteracted and overpowered Heller by any point of the fight even right in the arm ripping scenes, as shown by Heller countering Mercer's weapon abilities with different ones and countering Mercer's Hammerfist by blocking it with his own before grabbing Mercer's arms to rip them off rather than just physically strike Mercer with them, thus I doubt it proves anything about your point of the Blacklight characters' durability getting weaker throughout the fight upon being "weakened" physically. Realistically speaking, being "stunned" or "physically weakened" should not decrease the durability of one's body in any way, as that's not how it even works, and no explicit statements/quotes from the Prototype games even supports such.


>"And yet Mercer never cuts him in half and the Supreme Hunter is never gushing blood. I'm sure that's because you're seeing what you want to see at this point."

Which happened right at the end, when the Supreme Hunter was able to literally throw Mercer off with the same ease each time... And Mercer severing the Supreme Hunter's arm off and cutting Supreme Hunter in half proves nothing about the Blacklight characters' durability decreasing in any way. There aren't even explicit quotes/statements that even supports such.

>"Notice something about that scene? He's using tendrils and Heller is much, much weaker than him. There's no explicit statement that he can absorb comparable characters in Prototype 1, the only evidence you have is from a comic where he absorbs a human and a scene from Prototype 2 that hardly proves your point."

And there are also no explicit statements that supports Mercer's absorption is limited by characters being physically comparable to him. But based on what we can go off for the on-screen feats, Mercer being able to absorb via touch in both the feat of absorbing that Janitor, attempting to absorb Heller via touch (who then resisted via having "resilient DNA" plot armour, which has nothing to do with physical strength or being physically comparable to Mercer to resist it), and being able to absorb the Evolved upon his tendrils making contact with them.

>"Anyway, I think we should drop this point, since you agreed "on Mercer actually being able to absorb his targets like this, and Heller not being able to do the same before he consumed Mercer. It takes one less point out of this whole argument. It was also meaningless, on my part, to begin with"

Fair enough. Just don't reply to that same point again to save us the issue, or else we won't be able to stop doing so for that point. XD

 

[GrathOfLux]

Gahd, okay.

These posts are turning into things I'd expect to see on the Yggdrasil discussions.

I'd like to help out more with this thread if possible, but if a conclusion is ever going to be reached, or if any outside input is required, then keeping the posts at a reasonable length would be really helpful.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I mean, I did mention about this thread being unable to reach its conclusion because of the disagreements between ByAsura and I, especially due to our lack of satisfactory compromising and agreeing to disagreeing on both sides.

Shouldn't we let the majority decide/vote on which of the changes should be made on whether or not we should apply 8-C scaling and downscaling from it?

I've recalled that letting the majority decide is usually one of the last resort solutions to solve CRTs in case of excessive disagreements.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll take a while to respond because there's so much to get into. Also, I'm pretty much not going to back down because it seems like this whole argument is completely unfair cherrypicking of Prototype material.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@ByAsura

I'm not sure what the timezone is on your end, but if it's similar enough to mine's, it should be night time (and I have to wake up early enough for tomorrow for my University classes).

I would be going to bed by then, but I'll definitely respond back in the next day or so once I have the time to do so.

As for not backing down... Well, I'm pretty much not going to back down either... Which is why I suggested about the both of us compromising by agreeing to disagree and let the majority deciding/voting on our sides for the changes made. Since we both aren't going to back down, this is literally never going to end otherwise. Do you really want to continue this until we both die of old age? XD

 

[ByAsura]

It's almost time to go to sleep, but I still have a few hours, especially since I have nothing better to do tomorrow (I don't have corona, btw, just all my activities have stopped because of places shutting down). I'll finish the one response.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Nice to know (and yeah, the Corona Virus epidemic panic can be a bit of a pain in a time like this).

Alright, I'll wait for you to finish your next response, and probably respond to tomorrow once I find the time to do so. Also, it's the last one that I have to respond to before we agree to disagree (hopefully. If the both of us is not backing down, then I hope we can just end this by agreeing that we aren't going to agree with each other's points) and let the others solve the 8-C points via majority's votes/agreements, right? I don't want to force myself to continue this until the end of my lifetime after all, even if I personally have to, since I do want to enjoy my life and do things I want to do in the future after all. ^_^;

Edit: Alright, it's bedtime for me. I'll wait for your replies (both for your response to the questions and your response to the points) by then. However, expect for me to respond to your response to my questions first before your response to my points, which is going to take a while for me to respond back to your points later.

 

[ByAsura]

Sorry if I sound aggressive here.

There's no real indication that he wasn't affected, at least at first, and it still does an order of magnitude more damage than anything a non-amped Heller can accomplish, it should logically incapacitate mid-game Heller (who could just be less experienced than end-game Mercer, and here's the latter being heavily affected by bullets after becoming the virus) even if piercing weapons have less effect on him. Also, if you're going to write off all the Goliath's feats as gameplay mechanics as non-feats or say that piercing weapons have no real effect, then there's no point in arguing this. Incapacitation is non-existent in Prototype gameplay, so it doesn't matter anyway.

Both these points are sort of irrelevant and don't really address what I was even saying, especially the second one. But they're part of the first, so whatever.

Genuinely, it isn't part of gameplay lore. It's an animation, it's as simple as that, just like all of Heller's identical finishers. It really seems like you're reaching for this point, no offense. It's not portrayed that way in game, Goliaths are always shown as behemoths that are far larger and stronger than any infected, especially Brawlers. Also, if you want to disregard everything in gameplay, then that's fine, but they have no real feats above 9-A otherwise. That's fine, but I don't agree with mid-game Heller scaling, or at least scaling outright.

This is said as he's doing the exact same thing I mentioned—cutting down weak points in gameplay. If anything, this proves exactly what I'm saying, and it seems like you're cherrypicking quotes to say cutting off limbs if canonical but he's not targeting weak points. The reason he aims for the limbs is because they're weaker than the rest of the body.

Maybe it's because chopping his arms off on multiple occasions weakened him, which it did. Ok, I'm getting really tired of this point. You need to start backing up your claims here, all the evidence is against you on this, and making up explainations will not help. It's supremely consistent that characters easily cut apart comparable enemies after they've been weakened, despite not being able to do so in any situation prior.

You mean before he cuts off his arms several times and Mercer has to tax himself by regenerating the damage? Also, that's before this entire sequence, in the point-and-click one nothing of the sort happens. Yes, and notice how he uses his hands to catch the whip and the Hammerfist in the next scene that you conveniently left out? He blocks the attack completely and overpowers the Hammerfists, tearing them right off his arms, don't overcomplicate it. No it doesn't, there's nothing that implies Mercer could've counterracted Heller, especially since he directly blocks the attacks, not subverts or clashes with them.

I'm genuinely questioning whether you watched the full clip or not. The Supreme Hunter is unable to move properly and gushes blood before Mercer straight up bisects it. If Mercer could bisect the Supreme Hunter in this manner, he would've done so earlier, and he could've done this to so many opponents.

If you respond, I'm not going to because (no offense) I think your argumentation is completely unfair. So there's just no point. Take over the thread if you want, even. I've lost interest in Prototype since 2020, and I just took a look at these threads.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

damn i've been siting on the side lines watching this it has devolved into a bit of the same point being hammered over the head by both sides here so might as well give my two cents into the mix

first about the weaking the goliath, yes heller did weaken it first before he killed but here is the thing weakeing /stunning it would not decrease its overall durability by much thats not how durability works, while yes it would make riping the head off of the goliath easier it woun't make it 2-3 or more times easier, hell the main thing with weaking the goliath in game is so it would stop moving so heller could get his hands on its head without being shoved away, meaning even if the goliath was weakned it wouldn't be by much and heller still should down scale to lower level 8C. Also useing mercer and the suprime hunter as an example is pretty meh, in mercers case we treat him as equal to heller at that point in time we have been doing so for god knows how long now and as for the supreme hunter mercer cut him open he did not rip him apart(which would require far more power) and cutting something doesn't quite require a lot of AP for example a common house cat can use its claws to cut a 10-A human even though the ap difference is well over 7 times and that is mostly due to how penetration work for example even some 9A charaters are not fully immune to being penetrated by bullets due to how penetration works, ripping a goliaths head off is not quite the same as cutting it off it would require their Ap to be far closer then it would be if he cut its head off.

but that is pretty much it heller should backscale from the goliath at the very least he should have a rating of: at least 9A likely 8C,

 

[Antvasima]

If a character can rip off the head of another, I think that the former should scale from the latter. My apologies ByAsura.

 

[DeathNoodles]

@ByAsura

Since this is probably going to be the last point I'm going to have to respond to, I would make one last short response to end things off (You don't have to look at my response to help keep your word of not responding to my point again. In fact, I recommend you to do so by not looking at my points. XD):

As long as you don't attack me personally and just focus on the points, I don't mind a little aggressiveness.

I guess I can somewhat agree on the point of end-game Heller being a bit less experienced than end-game Mercer, but I doubt there's going to be actual lack of experience when Blacklight characters has shown to gain memories of their targets (thus, their knowledge, experience and skill), so I don't think experience is going to matter much outside of Blacklight characters reacting to damage in a specific way that they haven't before. If you're talking about Alex being heavily affected by the bullets back when he first woke up and thought he was human with human limitations as the game has portrayed and attributes that as possibly being less experienced when reacting to damage in a specific way, then I won't disagree with that at least. How Mercer reacts to bullets at the very beginning of Prototype 1 is different from how he reacts to them around the end of the Prototype 1 game after all, where Mercer was shown to not be significantly affected at all, so I can agree on that point at least. And fair enough on having no point in arguing this when we wave off the Goliath's feats as game mechanics, but I doubt Heller's feats are going to be affected when we see quotes/statements of reactions to Heller severing off the Goliath's limbs and ripping off its head.

It's animation that's been backed up by in-game quotes/statements, especially by dialogues of characters reacting to specific actions of Heller's or events occurring, thus it should be canonical to the game more/narrative by extension. Well, a Goliath might not have feats above 9-A in combat with Heller, but it has feats of doing Building level feats otherwise in the cutscenes and game lore, so I reckon it should still be 8-C with Heller slightly downscaling from it.

The quotes straight mentioned that Heller is ripping off the Goliath's limbs, but the quotes did not mention any of these weak points actually being a thing that's more than game mechanics and are in the game lore, thus Heller severing a Goliath's limbs and physically ripping of its head should be canonical to the game narrative/lore with the Goliath's weak points being likely Game Mechanics due to lack of explicit quotes that suggests that these weak points are an actual thing outside of the gameplay.

Heller chopping off Mercer's arms didn't even happen until Mercer's defeat sequence, and Mercer was doing fine overpowering Heller when the latter was using the same weapon abilities before that. As far as I can tell, there is no explicit statements that Mercer being weakened actually lowers his durability by a great amount like you suggested, just a demonstration of Mercer stop regenerating at the very last moment for some reason when he easily regenerated a few times before. In that same vein, one can easily argue that Heller just didn't even the right opportunity to sever or rip off Mercer's arms until Mercer's defeat sequence.

Heller uses his hand to grab the Whipfist to pull Mercer to him, and you can clearly see Heller using his blade ability to block/deflect Mercer's Whipfist before that (even evidenced by the clashing sound of metals). And I didn't include the Hammerfist scene because I forgot to do it, I was tired last night. And Heller literally grabbed Mercer's Hammerfists arms after he blocked it with his own (Heller didn't "completely overpower" Mercer's Hammerfists, all he did was block it and then grab Mercer's arms to tear it off from what I can see. Heller didn't even try to strike Mercer with the Hammerfists otherwise), I don't see how that proves anything when grabs and grapples tends to be portrayed in fiction as hard to escape from when done by characters comparable to one another. Also, Mercer was literally shown to counteract Heller when Heller tries to attack him with the same weapon abilities that he's currently using, and there are even quotes from Mercer that supports such (which I have provided for you) - so there are actually implications that Mercer could've counteracted Heller once he has the chance to if Heller were to try to use the same weapon abilities as he is.

The Supreme Hunter didn't even have issue throwing Mercer off it each and every time until its defeat sequence. Still, that proves nothing about the Blacklight characters' durability decreasing to a great extent after being physically weakened, which I have made so many points about.


Fair enough. I hope you continue to enjoy your life after this then.

Guess it's time to resolve this by letting the majority decide and vote then.

The list of people who agrees with the downscaling 8-C for James Heller and Alex Mercer's second last key:

DarkGrath, Sir Sun Man, DeathNoodles (me), Elizhaa, The Wright Way, XSOULOFCINDERX, Fupdumpthegump (and possibly Antvasima?).

The list of people who disagrees with downscaling 8-C scaling:

ByAsura, LSirLancelotDuLacl.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't have a good grasp of all the arguments here and may have misunderstood the point of this discussion, so it may be best to leave me out of the tally. I thought that the crucial issue was whether or not a character should scale from ripping off the head of another that was generally shown as superior otherwise.

 

[DeathNoodles]

>I thought that the crucial issue was whether or not a character should scale from ripping off the head of another that was generally shown as superior otherwise.

That was one of the main crucial issues, yes. In fact, most of my points for 8-C downscaling for James Heller is about him ripping off the head of an 8-C character that is the Goliaths.

The only people who disagreed with that is ByAsura, along with LSirLancealot by agreeing with him by extension. The majority supports the 8-C downscaling, giving James Heller the slightly lesser extent of 8-C than a Goliath's extent.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and what was his previous tier, and what was it based on?

 

[DeathNoodles]

Before James Heller's increases in strength for the time he fought the Goliath, I think he was 9-A in the early-game?

Albeit if Zamasu's link to the 8-C vapourisation calc gets accepted by the majority, then even early-game James Heller would be tier 8-C. If that calc gets refuted or denied by the majority, then early-game Heller (way before he fought the Goliath) would be 9-A. The 9-A tiering was based on enduring 9-A military attacks and destroying 9-A military vehicles, along with fighting and defeating monstrous beings that can heavily damage and destroy such 9-A vehicles.

Either way, I think it's uncontroversial for end-game James Heller and Alex Mercer's final key in being 8-C. It's only Mid-Game James Heller (during the time when James Heller first fought and defeated the Goliath to give him 8-C downscaling) and Alex Mercer's second last key that has excessive disagreements between ByAsura and I, though the majority in this thread agrees with 8-C downscaling if it that says anything.

 

[Elizhaa]

It was either Prima or Brady. I can't find either right now.

The Prima guide is about Prototype 1 so the scan is not from it. I brought and recently got the Brady guide.

Here are some of the relevant scans

 

[DeathNoodles]

@Elizhaa

That's great to know for the Brady guide for the information about the Goliaths. However, based from what I can see, it doesn't seem to mention anything about the Goliath having weak points and that their points are vastly weaker than the rest of the body canonically, just that Heller would have to take it apart one piece at a time... Which can simply interpreted as the Heller needing to find a good opportunity to defeat the Goliath by taking off its limbs rather than those limbs actually having weak points that makes it vastly less durable than the rest of its body - and there's the head-ripping to take into consideration still, which was the crux of most of my points about 8-C downscaling for James Heller. Shouldn't Heller still get 8-C via downscaling to slightly lesser extent of 8-C?

Also, statements of Alex Mercer from Prototype 2 being "the pinnacle of Blacklight evolution" and "undisputedly the most powerful of those infected with the virus" canonically puts him at a level above even the Goliaths. Shouldn't that put Alex Mercer's last key and second last key as 8-C by default?

 

[Elizhaa]

I added 4 more scans that I found near the end of posts. I think the scans show more evidence of Heller downscaling to Goliaths at 8-C.

The scan statement of Alex Mercer being the most powerful inflected, I do think is more solid evidence on Alex Mercer being 8-C for both of his last keys and that he would be upscaled from Goliaths; I do remember that far back this scan was used as evidence that Alex Mercer is the strongest infected in Prototype 2, in the past.

I would like to see other's opinions on the scans.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Those scans do seem to support Heller being 8-C via downscaling from Goliath's 8-C, and Alex Mercer being 8-C for his Prototype 2 keys, so I approve (these evidences just solidifies my approval even further).

Guess we can wait for other's opinions on the scans.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with this new information brought to the table.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with scaling Heller from the Goliath, but have no opinion regarding if he should scale to 8-C earlier.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

at the point of the fight he would be mid game

we also probobly going to have to give him some new keys

one for early game which will be 9A

one for mid game which will scale to goliaths aka 8C

one for end game which would just be higher 8C

and one for when he conusmes mercer where he should be at least 8C

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Elizhaa]

Antvasima, what do you think of Alex Mercer being 8-C for his last two keys?

Here a quick summary of the argument that support it:

1. Alex Mercer's last two key are 8-C.
   1. Alex Mercer's second key should be 8-C since he easily overpowers mid-end James Heller who later defeated Goliath prior to consumption. He become stronger in his last key. The best evidence is that Alex Mercer is stronger than Goliaths is that in the game guide Alex Mercer is stated to be the pinnacle of Blacklight evolution" and "undisputedly the most powerful of those infected with the virus" which should canonically puts him at a level above even the Goliaths as DeathNoodles pointed out.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

he should be but not the prototype 1 last key (no feats)

we should make a new key that will basically be him in P2 prior to his final evolution at the final fight of the game

that way we can avoid any and all inconsistencies like the evolved who we consider to be even with end game mercer who is 9A at the moment and if we change the key it would basically mean that every evolved (including koeining) would be 8C which would create a scaling hell, which is something we really don't want

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

It should be noted that I also with James Heller and Alex Mercer downscaling to 8-C, but am uncertain as to how the calculation that was requested earlier will be utilized.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It should be noted that I also with James Heller and Alex Mercer downscaling to 8-C, but am uncertain as to how the calculation that was requested earlier will be utilized.

Sad face.