Prototype Downgrades

[Ciruno_Fortes]

It rejected and formed the SH yeah. But what's there to say that it was just incredibly resistant to that disease? The virus could've just had no time to do anything at all

Well understandable. I'm not gonna contend with you Pen if we're in agreement.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Because some infected beings can specialize in one thing. That's why different Infected creatures have different abiilties on the first place. The existence of more anti-feats for Alex hurts more and makes it difficult to consider scaling the Regenerationn feat

That's one interpretation of it. Unless power null is induced by a disease I'm not trusting it. Even then the makings of the feat . Also you can reject something without getting the bonus of the power nullification.

If I delete a Trojan virus from my software through a different means that means my software still isn't safe from another one.

@second response

What? I'm unsure of what you mean, but like I said before. You can kick out a disease and reject it without having to adapt to it. Alex certainly only adapted to it by kicking it out, thus cancelling it from negating his abilities.

I've seen franchises do this before. Contradictions exist. I'm so sick of being on both sides of this argument but it seems no matter what, onscreen feats are better basis for the franchise since it's consistent

Some of them. Not all of them, and even then Mercer has been known to gain abilities upon absorbing them. And the Supreme Hunter explicitly came from Alex Mercer's very own DNA. His. Own. DNA. All evidence suggests that the Supreme Hunter inherited his abilities from Mercer, including Regenerationn, so I literally can't see why Mercer can't scale to the Supreme Hunter.

If Mercer has been shown to explicitly gained his abilities back when he hasn't before, I don't see why that doesn't count as him resisting the Power Nullification. And it was explicitly demonstrated that Mercer gained his abilities back after adapted.

I'm pretty sure that's not the best example to use when Mercer explicitly absorbed Elizabeth Greene, who resisted the Parasite... The fact she was able to kick it out without suffering any further ill effects is still a resistance feat against the Parasite and its nullification abilities.

Contradiction may exist, but I don't see why we should disregard canon statements just like that simply because the visuals aren't up to our standards.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Well understandable. I'm not gonna contend with you Pen if we're in agreement.

What no our battle was meant to be legendary! Hyms would be sung, fist would fly nuclear fireworks would light up the sky!!!!

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Wait Dragoo did you try to post this thread three times?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Some. But other abilities he could you know, evolve? Just like what Alex has been doing without consuming others. I don't think that's too unlikely now

It's simple really. Virus A is so strong that it shuts down his powers locking him out. Get rid of Virus A from affecting you. What happens now? You can use your own powers again.

Again. If the disease res is so strong that the virus/cure couldn't even try to do anything, it would never have the chance to try and shut down powers anyway.

@ Pen

Nah too lazy and too little time.

Anyway I'll let Dargoo take charge since I believe he knows better

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Yes, and it's a disease that's capable of power nullification. When he gained the adaptation, he got all the abilities that was locked from him back. It can still be argued that it's power null resistance in the end.

This doesn't make any sense, I'm sorry. His abilities are based on his biology, and the disease is interfering with biological functions that give him a variety of abilities much like any disease interferes with our biological functions to give symptoms harmful and lethal.

Fending off that disease only shows us that he can resist the disease. Unless you have an example of a non-disease based power nullification failing against him after this adaptation, you really can't make that argument.

> I mean, I'm pretty sure resisting a Power Nullification from Magic can be argued to be Power Nullification, even if it's done by magic (unless by that logic you would argue that it's Magic resistance then?).

I mean, if the verse is explaining that the character absorbed and began resisting magic, I'd call it magic resistance, if you want to make that comparison.

I also think you're blanketing power nullification as a single ability, when it's a classification for a variety of ability-ability interactions that we can only really determine on a case-by-case basis. How magic-based powernull works is irrelevent to Mercer since his abilities aren't magic.

> The game itself literally stated 10-15 miles. We can not just ignore the context of the canon like that.

And the nuke going off literally isn't 10-15 miles. So clearly the statement is a lie, mistaken, or exaggerated.

Again though, 10-15 miles in reference to what? The radius of the fireball? The airblast? Fatality? I'm talking about the fireblast.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Some. But other abilities he could you know, evolve? Just like what Alex has been doing without consuming others. I don't think that's too unlikely now

It's simple really. Virus A is so strong that it shuts down his powers locking him out. Get rid of Virus A from affecting you. What happens now? You can use your own powers again.

Again. If the disease res is so strong that the virus/cure couldn't even try to do anything, it would never have the chance to try and shut down powers anyway.

@ Pen

Nah too lazy and too little time.

Anyway I'll let Dargoo take charge since I believe he knows better

So, speculation that Mercer wouldn't scale to the Supreme Hunter just simply because the Supreme Hunter might evolve in different ways that could include its Regenerationn, yet when the first time the Supreme Hunter was unleashed it was shown to be able to unleash Devastator to impale its targets via spikes from the ground similar to Mercer... And was explicitly stated to be synthesised from Mercer's own DNA... Occam's Razor suggests that both Mercer and Supreme Hunter scales by default as the Supreme Hunter originated from the same source that is Mercer himself, and I don't see any explicit statement that suggests that the Supreme Hunter evolved its abilities differently, so I don't see why they can't scale.

If that disease resistance involves a disease that can nullify the abilities of its targets, I'm pretty sure resisting it would also mean resisting the Nullification effects as well. And the Parasite was explicitly stated to be able to make its targets' body destroy itself from the inside and out, and Mercer was prevented from using a majority of his abilities due to the Parasite in him preventing him from using his powers when it's inside his body. It sounds like Mercer can still scale to the Power Nullification resistance.

 

[DMUA]

Oh, yeah, I did remember looking over both calcs and how they neither used inverse square law, and use combustion values, which isn't very accurate considering it assumes all the chemical energy is being released at once and tanked, which isn't really how it goes down

It's better to actually use overpressure, assuming there's a shockwave from it (which is the case here)

Also, I think there are discrepancies in size due to gameplay limitations but, whatever

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> Occam's Razor suggests that both Mercer and Supreme Hunter scales by default as the Supreme Hunter originated from the same source that is Mercer himself

That's not Occam's Razor, that's a fallacy by association. That's like saying two brothers are of the same species and are from the same womb, therefore every aspect of them must scale. And it's been established already that some of these infectees have capabilities that others don't, so there's that too.

> I don't see any explicit statement that suggests that the Supreme Hunter evolved its abilities differently, so I don't see why they can't scale.

Scaling is something that you actually have to prove first, not something your detractors must disprove.

> If that disease resistance involves a disease that can nullify the abilities of its targets, I'm pretty sure resisting it would also mean resisting the Nullification effects as well.

I feel like we're just rehashing the same arguments back and forth at this point, and is more just a difference in opinions on how we'd linguistically call Alex resisting a disease whose symptoms disable his powers.

Disease resistance is generally a better term for this, as it's easier to stipulate that Mercer can resist foreign diseases from this feat, while trying to prove that Mercer could resist power-nullification that isn't based on biological interference is kind of impossible, given there is no examples of him doing this.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Snip

I don't see why Power Nullification is disregarded just because the abilities and nullification are shown to be biological. I mean, I'm sure character A getting their magic nullified by character B who uses Magic Nullification, but the then gets their magic abilities back and became unaffected due to the nullification no longer working, I don't see why it shouldn't count as Power Nullification just because it's done by magic. Similarly, I don't see why the Nullification can be disregarded just because it's biological and the character who got affected is biological.

Fair point for Mercer's abilities not being magic. I'm just making analogies.

As for the radius of the nuke, I'm going to take a search that scan in a moment.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Eh to be fair its more like saying a clone is capable of everything the original is and vice versa, the hunter was made from dna pulled from mercers body iirc. I don't really have a stance on the higher ends of this but I feel between mercer regenning from a small tendril of himself and the supreme hunter regening from a puddle theirs enough to be comfortable with atleast low-High

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Eh to be fair its more like saying a clone is capable of everything the original is and vice versa, the hunter was made from dna pulled from mercers body iirc. I don't really have a stance on the higher ends of this but I feel between mercer regenning from a small tendril of himself and the supreme hunter regening from a puddle theirs enough to be comfortable with atleast high low regen.

You mean Low-High?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Im tired old man, yes thats what i meant.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

> I mean, I'm sure character A getting their magic nullified by character B who uses Magic Nullification, but the then gets their magic abilities back and became unaffected due to the nullification no longer working, I don't see why it shouldn't count as Power Nullification just because it's done by magic.

That's another poor comparison, because that's not what you said Alex was doing. He's not shrugging off the symptoms of the disease while still being infected with it, he's, as you said, resisting the disease itself.

And my point was that your analogies are also poor because how a magic based power-interaction and how a biology-based power interaction work are fundamentally different, so any comparsions you draw between them is pretty suspect.

I'd rather we stop speaking in analogies though. The bottom line is that I'd like to see objective evidence that Alex can resist his powers being turned off when they're not being turned off by a disease that he can adapt to.

> As for the radius of the nuke, I'm going to take a search that scan in a moment.

Sure, alright.

 

[Migue79]

Hmm... I figured I'd throw in a few things that might help with the whole nuke feat.

Here is a wee graph that shows the temperature of a nuke's fireball vs. time.




And I want to point out that the fireball of a nuke hits its maximum width in a matter of 10 seconds.

I feel like this bit of info could help with the whole nuke feat. But eh. Take it or leave it.

 

[DMUA]

Oh, a few more things:

The nuke was 7-B, so even someone Low 7-C definitely wouldn't survive it.

.... Then again, said calc also puts him far away from the explosion and thereby lowering the energy dramatically, so there's that

And as per the facility issue, there's this, but it's been so long since I've seen anything to do with prototype (and UMR is a bit sleezy even beyond discord issues we all know and love) that I don't remember if any of it is actually reasonable. Just something to consider.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Actually I decided to try doing one myself:


Let's generally assume this building is an average-height skyscraper, or 250 meters.

Fireball radius:

(250 m * 1502 px / 51 px) = 7362 meters, or 4.6 miles. Divided by two is 2.3 miles.

And I want to point out that the fireball of a nuke hits its maximum width in a matter of 10 seconds.

I feel like this bit of info could help with the whole nuke feat. But eh. Take it or leave it.

The fireball stops expanding in a little over 10 seconds, so it's right on the mark, I guess.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The nuke was 7-B, so even someone Low 7-C definitely wouldn't survive it.

I'd re-read the calc. The actual blast isn't 7-B.

A Low 7-C wouldn't survive at the epicenter. Alex was stupendously far away from it.

.... Then again, said calc also puts him far away from the explosion and thereby lowering the energy dramatically, so there's that

Yes, that. And he was inside of a helicopter, to boot.

And as per the facility issue, there's this, but it's been so long since I've seen anything to do with prototype (and UMR is a bit sleezy even beyond discord issues we all know and love) that I don't remember if any of it is actually reasonable. Just something to consider.

I'll say for a second time that we don't allow scaling up tiers like this.

Curious how that blog doesn't actually provide AP feats though, but just states them. No inkling of timeframe or context either. So it's largely just fluff.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I explicitly remembered the Supreme Hunter being born from Greene after Mercer inyected her with the virus that almost killed him

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

A Low 7-C wouldn't survive at the epicenter. Alex was stupendously far away from it.

Was he though? How can we tell how far he got? We see him drop the nuke into the ocean, we cut to him flying back towards the city then we watch the explosion catch up to him

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

That's true Tony, it was basically a rejected piece of Cancer literally

just got back from dinner

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Was he though? How can we tell how far he got? We see him drop the nuke into the ocean, we cut to him flying back towards the city then we watch the explosion catch up to him

Easy. Just find the speed at which a nuclear fireball moves (or better yet, the speed at which the thermal radiation would reach him), and the amount of time that the fireball took to catch up to him, and you have a distance.

According to this article, a fireball would travel "5,700 feet in 10 seconds" and the blast took ~ 6 seconds to reach Alex. Which meant he was 3,420 feet away.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Was that what it was? If so fair enough, alex did regen from a small glob of liquidated flesh though, I feel low high regen should be fine.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Low-High seems fine to me as well.

 

[Migue79]

There's also the fact that uh, considering he got consumed by the nuke like... 4-5 seconds? So the temperature of the fireball would be like 1000 degrees Celsius. Would that be enough to guarantee Mid-High regen with the extent of incineration?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

There's also the fact that uh, considering he got consumed by the nuke like... 4-5 seconds? So the temperature of the fireball would be like 1000 degrees Celsius. Would that be enough to guarantee Mid-High regen with the extent of incineration?

Cremation takes several hours sustained at that temperature, so if he took it for 5 seconds, no.

Air is also a pretty bad conductor for heat, to boot.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Had to drop this on me now dragoo? I was planning to take a break from the wiki for the next month and you choose now!

 

[Migue79]

Well, RIP Alex's Mid-High regen in that case...

 

[DeathNoodles]

snip

That's not Occam's Razor, that's a fallacy by association. That's like saying two brothers are of the same species and are from the same womb, therefore every aspect of them must scale. And it's been established already that some of these infectees have capabilities that others don't, so there's that too.

> I don't see any explicit statement that suggests that the Supreme Hunter evolved its abilities differently, so I don't see why they can't scale.

Scaling is something that you actually have to prove first, not something your detractors must disprove.

snip

snip

"That's another poor comparison, because that's not what you said Alex was doing. He's not shrugging off the symptoms of the disease while still being infected with it, he's, as you said, resisting the disease itself." I mean, it was stated that by learning about what the Parasite is doing, Mercer's biology can reject it after gaining the adaptation, so it could be seen as Mercer's shrugging off the symptoms of the disease after that via his biology resisting it. But fine, we can agree to disagree regarding this point, so I don't really mind the Power Nullification resistance being removed and replaced with greater Disease and Biological Manipulation resistance anyways.

"That's not Occam's Razor, that's a fallacy by association. That's like saying two brothers are of the same species and are from the same womb, therefore every aspect of them must scale. And it's been established already that some of these infectees have capabilities that others don't, so there's that too.

> I don't see any explicit statement that suggests that the Supreme Hunter evolved its abilities differently, so I don't see why they can't scale.

Scaling is something that you actually have to prove first, not something your detractors must disprove."

Actually, all evidences I see have it that Mercer should scale to the Supreme Hunter as the Supreme Hunter has showcased abilities and attacks that are similar to Mercer's, thus it can be safely assumed that their Regenerationn can scale as well.

I can provide the scans of similar attacks and abilities if it could prove that Mercer can scale to the Supreme Hunter.

 

[DMUA]

I'll say for a second time that we don't allow scaling up tiers like this.

The calc is listed right there in the wack scaling

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Looks like a necessary revision for power null and Regenerationn is necessary then.

Now, one last one. About the Toxic Gas- Alex Mercer has an infectious cloud ability that he only used once in the entire instance of the game and that was when he was an evil villain in Prototype 2 against humans and never again. Granted, there's no benefit in using it against enemies that are also Infected. But his goal was to infect the world and yet he didn't use that ability and spammed it everywhere with his Evolved.

Mind you that can be PIS, but do you think that should be a viable combat ability?

This ability has granted Alex so many wins so I thought it should be noted.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

He also infected the gasous cure they made to spread blacklight around more...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

100% agree with this

 

[DeathNoodles]

Looks like a necessary revision for power null and Regenerationn is necessary then.

Now, one last one. About the Toxic Gas- Alex Mercer has an infectious cloud ability that he only used once in the entire instance of the game and that was when he was an evil villain in Prototype 2 against humans and never again. Granted, there's no benefit in using it against enemies that are also Infected. But his goal was to infect the world and yet he didn't use that ability and spammed it everywhere with his Evolved.

Mind you that can be PIS, but do you think that should be a viable combat ability?

This ability has granted Alex so many wins so I thought it should be noted.

If he literally uses it, and then makes gasses being released that appears to be similar in appearance and function to the gasses he first unleashed in Penn Station, then I don't see why it can't be a viable combat ability. As far as I can see, he has that ability canonically, even if the plot holes of Prototype 2 doesn't make him outright show it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Death, please fix your formatting. I can barely make out what you're typing out for me.

I've already approved Low-High regen based on Mercer's nuke feat so I feel like continuing this argument is pointless for the time being, since I'd rather focus on AP here. I'll just say that, while I disagree that our assumption is that they scale, Alex has supporting feats for regen that give more substance to the claim.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Low-High seems fine to me as well.

Cellular level Low-High. It was explicitly stated by a scientist, who is considered to be an expert on the Blacklight Virus, that Mercer can rebuild his body at the cellular level.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Naturally. It wasn't used as his go to ability when he first fought James Heller and some military goons in the beginning of the second game but it was still used. I'm more questioning on it being a first move ability and its viability. I want to hear Dargoo's thought since he's taking this very nicely and accurately

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Death Regenerating at a cellular level and regenerating from a single cell arent the same thing

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Ciruno I'm not familiar enough with Prototype (especially the second game) to debate Alex's character at the moment. I've watched a run of the game mostly to scour for feats, although I would note that from my watch of the playthrough, I couldn't really see him using it often in the cutscenes.

So I guess he could start with it in battles, but he also starts with a bunch of other stuff more consistently.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Naturally. It wasn't used as his go to ability when he first fought James Heller and some military goons in the beginning of the second game but it was still used. I'm more questioning on it being a first move ability and its viability. I want to hear Dargoo's thought since he's taking this very nicely and accurately

I can argue that the PIS that has littered Prototype 2 could prevent him from outright using it at the beginning of the Prototype 2 game, as he was also shown to use gasses to infect a bunch of soldiers and aims to infect more people after that (even including the civilians within the vicinity of those gasses), but alright then.