Question about layered hax limit

[AlipheeseXIV]

For the sake of someone off site I wanted to ask these questions regarding layered hax

1. Can a character with layered 3D hax ever outhax someone with baseline 4D hax/resistances? Or do layers =/= dimensional difference? As far as I am aware, a character can have an infinite amount of layered hax for any given tier and it would equate to zilch if the opponent's hax and/or resistances are an entire dimensional tier above them but maybe I'm wrong so I just wanted to be sure.
2. Using a more slightly contentious example, say character A has infinite 4D layers for NEP 2, character B has NEP 2 but it has 0 layers it is however, 5D NEP 2. In this example, would character B be unable to bypass the NEP 2 because NEP is wanked because character A simply has infinite layers?

 

[SweetDao]

Can a character with layered 3D hax ever outhax someone with baseline 4D hax/resistances? Or do layers =/= dimensional difference? As far as I am aware, a character can have an infinite amount of layered hax for any given tier and it would equate to zilch if the opponent's hax and/or resistances are an entire dimensional tier above them but maybe I'm wrong so I just wanted to be sure.

If the whole stuff worked correctly, metaphysical haxs (causality, concept manipulation, etc...) basically something that "can't be quantified" shouldn't be dimensioned in the first place. So technically speaking, unless the verse state otherwise, a 3D character using CM or a 4D character using it should yield the exact same potency. Therefore, the guy with layered hax should be able to bypass the 4D guy.

Using a more slightly contentious example, say character A has infinite 4D layers for NEP 2, character B has NEP 2 but it has 0 layers it is however, 5D NEP 2. In this example, would character B be unable to bypass the NEP 2 because NEP is wanked because character A simply has infinite layers?

It makes no sense to scale NEP based on dimensionality. Therefore, yeah, the second character would probably not be able to do anything to the other guy.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

If the whole stuff worked correctly, metaphysical haxs (causality, concept manipulation, etc...) basically something that "can't be quantified" shouldn't be dimensioned in the first place. So technically speaking, unless the verse state otherwise, a 3D character using CM or a 4D character using it should yield the exact same potency. Therefore, the guy with layered hax should be able to bypass the 4D guy.

Isn't that kinda contradictory? If metaphysical haxs "can't be quantified" and have the same potency regardless of dimensionality than how would their be any clear difference with layers? Something that's objectively inferior in terms of quality/quantity

It makes no sense to scale NEP based on dimensionality. Therefore, yeah, the second character would probably not be able to do anything to the other guy.

I mean yeah, I see what you mean there. Okay then let me rephrase, say within the series character B has nonduality type 2 and/or sees the 4D character as insignificant/fiction? Wouldn't that literally mean they'd be unable to affect them in any meaningful way since you could stack infinity infinitely and never reach the tier of the higher dimension? (Of course, assuming the fictional series in question uses increases in dimensional tiering to directly equate to inferiority/superiority)

 

[SweetDao]

Isn't that kinda contradictory? If metaphysical haxs "can't be quantified" and have the same potency regardless of dimensionality than how would their be any clear difference with layers? Something that's objectively inferior in terms of quality/quantity

They can't be quantified in terms of "my conceptual manipulation is 10, yours is 20, therefore you have a better one". But, a character A can bypass the CM resistance of Character B due to a better/"stronger" or whatever CM. In that case, that would be a layer if the verse explains its due to "potency" or "power". This is different from, let's say, someone capable of resisting a fire manipulation up to a certain heat and a character fire manipulation able to go beyond said limit and therefore kill the guy.

say within the series character B has nonduality type 2 and/or sees the 4D character as insignificant/fiction?

If the difference is qualitative (therefore making him 1-A), then yeah, everything from Character A (unless exceptions) would amount to nothing.

It doesn't mean that the guy could necessarily bypass the layers, but it's moreso like the layers (and the NEP) of the lower character just doesn't exist. On equal footing, Character A would still have the advantages.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

They can't be quantified in terms of "my conceptual manipulation is 10, yours is 20, therefore you have a better one"

I mean in this example I am more so saying "your CM could be a 1 with infinite zeroes but you're still 4D" if that makes sense?

a character A can bypass the CM resistance of Character B due to a better/"stronger" or whatever CM. In that case, that would be a layer if the verse explains its due to "potency" or "power". This is different from, let's say, someone capable of resisting a fire manipulation up to a certain heat and a character fire manipulation able to go beyond said limit and therefore kill the guy.

I'm kind of confused...so we're saying that having layers>having no layers but higher dimensional hax? If that's the case then, what if character B had one layer due to resisting the 5D hax of another character? With this logic would we then say that due to them having the SINGLE layered ability now, because it is layered 5D it's superior to an infinite layered 4D? Like...do you understand where I'm going with this?

If the difference is qualitative (therefore making him 1-A), then yeah, everything from Character A (unless exceptions) would amount to nothing.

It doesn't mean that the guy could necessarily bypass the layers, but it's moreso like the layers (and the NEP) of the lower character just doesn't exist. On equal footing, Character A would still have the advantages.

Yeah that makes sense, I wasn't referring to it being qualitative superiority since ik that would naturally make them amount to nothing no matter what (unless they were also 1A) but I was more so saying that it was...uhh I guess for lack of a better term "restrictive quantitative?" Like...in the example verse I'm using, the way they make dimensionality work is by saying that if a character is 5D then any amount of 4D hax is irrelevant to them unless they themselves become 5D because character B doesn't even exist in the same dimension as character A.

Am I making more sense now? Idk if the way I phrased it was off or smth, lmk

 

[SweetDao]

I mean in this example I am more so saying "your CM could be a 1 with infinite zeroes but you're still 4D" if that makes sense?

I mean, the problem would be more about range. The 4D character wouldn't be able to "directly affect" the 5D character due to lacking the range to do so, but in terms of potency it would be the same.

Do you see any difference between a character A being 3D and a character B being 5D using their conceptual manipulation to cause instant death on another being? Personally, I don't.

I'm kind of confused...so we're saying that having layers>having no layers but higher dimensional hax? If that's the case then, what if character B had one layer due to resisting the 5D hax of another character? With this logic would we then say that due to them having the SINGLE layered ability now, because it is layered 5D it's superior to an infinite layered 4D? Like...do you understand where I'm going with this?

Maybe I explain like shit

On equal grounds, having layers > having no layers. That much we both agree and understand.
Thing is, "higher dimensional hax" simply doesn't exist. You can show that a certain hax affects a certain dimensionality (or has range to affect said dimensionality or higher) but you can't say that "using the concept of death to inflict death on the opponent" can be dimensioned. Unless the author state it does, obviously, but we're not accounting for this right now.

I'm kind of losing the thread about character B and Characters A ngl... But from your example, I don't see why a "5D hax" would even be a thing beside range. In any case, no, I wouldn't say that they can "bypass infinite layer of 4D layers" since not only the premise is wrong, but the postulate you created doesn't imply that.

Like...in the example verse I'm using, the way they make dimensionality work is by saying that if a character is 5D then any amount of 4D hax is irrelevant to them unless they themselves become 5D because character B doesn't even exist in the same dimension as character A.

If the verse state this directly and also explain what layers are (and if the definition aligns with VSBW standards) then you don't need more than what is written inside the verse, yeah. Doesn't make much sense tho. I would personally moreso see it as some form of "invincibility" or HDE.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean, the problem would be more about range. The 4D character wouldn't be able to "directly affect" the 5D character due to lacking the range to do so, but in terms of potency it would be the same.

I mean yes obviously range is a major contender but but by "potency" I'm referring to it's literal influence, like yeah I see what you mean. But I disagree that the only difference is range, when tiering and AP clearly take into account the differences in dimensionality like a 4D character cannot damage a 5D character, not because they lack range but because they lack a literal entire dimensional difference in power. Now yes...this does go straight into your point below which I will move onto.

Do you see any difference between a character A being 3D and a character B being 5D using their conceptual manipulation to cause instant death on another being? Personally, I don't.

Yes, I do agree with this when analyzing it using this limited and narrow field of requirements. You can indeed argue 4D instant death is virtually the same as 5D instant death in terms of their literal effects, but that's obviously where resistances come in. Which, you also did point out in a later comment but if the topic of a character resisting the (in this case) 4D hax comes up, then this is basically where the root of the problem comes from. Because of course, a layered ability is in short being able to bypass a characters resistance to said ability, however this by definition shouldn't be able to encompass an ability that is coming from a character using a higher dimensional source of power. Now, I am aware that having 4D physicals or hax potency does not necessarily mean the characters dimensionality is literally 4 dimensional (a good example Bleach/DMC) however...if we use the description given to attain the tier of L1C this comes up

​

"Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space)."​

Now from this, wouldn't it be contradictory to say a character with inf 4D layers can use the 4D to target 5D characters when they by definition are uncountably infinite level above at least L2C structures?

Maybe I explain like shit

Nah you're explaining it fine, I'm the one who's explaining like crap lol

On equal grounds, having layers > having no layers. That much we both agree and understand.
Thing is, "higher dimensional hax" simply doesn't exist. You can show that a certain hax affects a certain dimensionality (or has range to affect said dimensionality or higher) but you can't say that "using the concept of death to inflict death on the opponent" can be dimensioned. Unless the author state it does, obviously, but we're not accounting for this right now.

Okay...yeah I see what you mean there so allow me to clarify even further. I'll extend this hypothetical to include the fact that in this (insert) verse, there are characters who can both resist an infinite amount of layered death hax (4D) and there are also those who exist beyond 4D as a whole (5D). I guess I was being way too vague with my example before and didn't specify that but that is more or less what I had in mind when asking this. Sorry for not mentioning that earlier.

I'm kind of losing the thread about character B and Characters A ngl... But from your example, I don't see why a "5D hax" would even be a thing beside range. In any case, no, I wouldn't say that they can "bypass infinite layer of 4D layers" since not only the premise is wrong, but the postulate you created doesn't imply that.

Yeah that's fair forget the whole character B and A shit lol, as for the second part this is where I fail to understand why 5D hax is only range? When there exists characters with higher dimensional range as their literal stat but still have lower dimensional hax and yet if you were to theoretically make a matchup with them it'd be a stomp due to the tiering difference, so idk. If my postulate didn't imply that then that's my bad

If the verse state this directly and also explain what layers are (and if the definition aligns with VSBW standards) then you don't need more than what is written inside the verse, yeah. Doesn't make much sense tho. I would personally moreso see it as some form of "invincibility" or HDE.

Well yeah in this case it is literal textbook HDE, I see...could it have been that we were misunderstanding each other's definition of what being 4D vs 5D meant? Lol, cuz I know not all 5D characters have HDE for example. So is it that HDE is the only way to make up for that difference in layers?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Ever since the qualitative and quantitative split, there is no such things nD hax.

You can argue a greater range.

 

[SweetDao]

when tiering and AP clearly take into account the differences in dimensionality like a 4D character cannot damage a 5D character, not because they lack range but because they lack a literal entire dimensional difference in power

It works when we're taking physical stuff into account. Yeah, sure, a fireball from a 3D being would do extremely minimal (if not none at all) damage to a 4D being. That metric can't work with metaphysical hax like causality, concept, ...

Now from this, wouldn't it be contradictory to say a character with inf 4D layers can use the 4D to target 5D characters when they by definition are uncountably infinite level above at least L2C structures?

You're taking into account physicality here. As I've pointed out, "physical hax", like fire, ice, earth, poison, curse (depends), ... wouldn't be able to affect the 5D being solely because his durability is too much for the 4D guy, since each of those hax directly target the durability of said guy. However, that's not the case for hax that aren't physical, like conceptual manipulation. Like, okay sure, a 5D being is more than infinitely stronger than a 4D being, cool, how will that help him resist a death manipulation using the concept of death? Either he has a resistance to CM + Death, and therefore he resists it, or he doesn't and he dies. (I'm not taking into account the problem of range here).

I'll extend this hypothetical to include the fact that in this (insert) verse, there are characters who can both resist and infinite amount of layered death hax (4D) and there are also those who exist beyond 4D as a whole (5D).

Well, again, if "layers" are defined or explained in the verse and fits the criteria here, sure. But the fact that they are 5D = above infinite layers (even if that makes no sense) is a verse-specific thing, not a standard for every character/verse here.

Yeah that's fair forget the whole character B and A shit lol, as for the second part this is where I fail to understand why 5D hax is only range?

Unless you mean "physical hax", like a fireball for example, the more esoteric hax doesn't scale to dimensionality. "Death" cannot be dimensioned depending on how it's applied, for example.

When there exists characters with higher dimensional range as their literal stat but still have lower dimensional hax and yet if you were to theoretically make a matchup with them it'd be a stomp due to the tiering difference, so idk.

Could be a verse thing too. Having higher dimensional range is standards stuff, honestly. A good portion of Low 2-C characters have HDR thanks to being capable of destroying a Low 2-C structure even if they are just 3D. It doesn't mean that their haxs are suddenly "4D" in potency or something (unless proven, obviously).

There's also HDE to take into account and such.

I see...could it have been that we were misunderstanding each other's definition of what being 4D vs 5D meant? Lol, cuz I know not all 5D characters have HDE for example. So is it that HDE is the only way to make up for that difference in layers?

I mean, "4D" mean four-dimensional, "5D" five-dimensional. It's about spatial axes. If you meant some sort of spiritual dimension or something then it's probably untierable (but could still be some ersatz HDE ig).

No, not really, layers are just that, layers. If the guy has infinite layer for death manipulation resistance, but he never showed being able to resist a conceptual death manipulation, he would get stomped no matter the layers. It's all a matter of "what was shown". For conceptual manipulation, it's the same, if the guy proved to have to some resistance to CM2, it doesn't mean he would resist CM1. There are probably lot and lot of other ways to bypass layers.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Ever since the qualitative and quantitative split, there is no such things nD hax.

You can argue a greater range.

Can you elaborate more on this?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

It works when we're taking physical stuff into account. Yeah, sure, a fireball from a 3D being would do extremely minimal (if not none at all) damage to a 4D being. That metric can't work with metaphysical hax like causality, concept, ...

But doesn't it work for metaphysical hax like NEP 2? Not to mention series like Tensura have layers for things like CM

Well, again, if "layers" are defined or explained in the verse and fits the criteria here, sure. But the fact that they are 5D = above infinite layers (even if that makes no sense) is a verse-specific thing, not a standard for every character/verse here.

Gotcha, so it's not SBA but something that is a verse by verse basis. Okay, that is more or less what I wanted to know

Could be a verse thing too. Having higher dimensional range is standards stuff, honestly. A good portion of Low 2-C characters have HDR thanks to being capable of destroying a Low 2-C structure even if they are just 3D. It doesn't mean that their haxs are suddenly "4D" in potency or something (unless proven, obviously).

There's also HDE to take into account and such.

Fair enough, so how would HDE play a roll in this then?

No, not really, layers are just that, layers. If the guy has infinite layer for death manipulation resistance, but he never showed being able to resist a conceptual death manipulation, he would get stomped no matter the layers. It's all a matter of "what was shown". For conceptual manipulation, it's the same, if the guy proved to have to some resistance to CM2, it doesn't mean he would resist CM1. There are probably lot and lot of other ways to bypass layers.

Well yeah, I know obviously you can circumvent a layered ability by using a different hax but for a more dominant hax ability (like NEP 2) having infinite layers of that is the same as essentially being unkillable and unable to be interacted with permanently. This is of course, because NEP 2 is one of the most broken hax on the wiki

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Can you elaborate more on this?

All dimensional beings have the same quality, so they will be affected by each other’s hax. However, a higher dimensional being can be extremely larger than lower dimensional, so the area their hax affects can also be extremely large.

Some hax affects physical material, so a lower dimensional character could only affect a cross-section of the higher dimensional being.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

All dimensional beings have the same quality, so they will be affected by each other’s hax. However, a higher dimensional being can be extremely larger than lower dimensional, so the area their hax affects can also be extremely large.

Some hax affects physical material, so a lower dimensional character could only affect a cross-section of the higher dimensional being.

I see

 

[Faridw]

For the sake of someone off site I wanted to ask these questions regarding layered hax

1. Can a character with layered 3D hax ever outhax someone with baseline 4D hax/resistances? Or do layers =/= dimensional difference? As far as I am aware, a character can have an infinite amount of layered hax for any given tier and it would equate to zilch if the opponent's hax and/or resistances are an entire dimensional tier above them but maybe I'm wrong so I just wanted to be sure.
2. Using a more slightly contentious example, say character A has infinite 4D layers for NEP 2, character B has NEP 2 but it has 0 layers it is however, 5D NEP 2. In this example, would character B be unable to bypass the NEP 2 because NEP is wanked because character A simply has infinite layers?

For the first question, it is clear that the hax higher dimension can affect the hax lower dimension even though it is infinitely layered, why can it? because this is already a different realm, the difference in realm is very important here so for example character A has a manipulation concept in the 4d realm and character b has a 5d manipulation concept, character b will be able to penetrate the resistance of A even though A has infinitely layered resistance in the 4d realm, this already refers to quality


And for the problem of nep it cannot be measured by dimension, so well here there is nothing stronger

 

[SweetDao]

But doesn't it work for metaphysical hax like NEP 2? Not to mention series like Tensura have layers for things like CM

NEP can have layers yeah, doesn't mean it has to be dimensioned. Heck, there is no reason for it to be so.
Having layers with CM is fine, it just depends on how it's treated in verse. Like for example, a concept being the "fundamental" concept that makes all other concept possible would probably be one layer of CM if shown to be stronger and such.

Fair enough, so how would HDE play a roll in this then?

HDE makes the higher-dimensional being "more or less" resistant and invulnerable over anything lower-dimensional. Not in the sense that he possesses a specific ability to do so, but more so that the lower-dimensional being wouldn't be able to target any meaningful part of his body. Imagine being able to "only" affect a single square (among an uncountably infinite number of them) inside a cube. It's literally an infinitesimal amount of damage.

Well yeah, I know obviously you can circumvent a layered ability by using a different hax but for a more dominant hax ability (like NEP 2) having infinite layers of that is the same as essentially being unkillable and unable to be interacted with permanently. This is of course, because NEP 2 is one of the most broken hax on the wiki

I guess you could see it that way.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Ever since the qualitative and quantitative split, there is no such things nD hax.

You can argue a greater range.

nD hax still exist.
Although the range is far higher in terms of value,
certain character can condense it or concentrate it, which grants the potency in the first place and is used to be the original way to gain higher dimensional hax

Or in the sense that if a person has a higher-dimensional mind, all of it is focused on the mind controlling a single entity. That's equivalent to an uncountable amount of mind all at once attempting to control your mind.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Although the range is far higher in terms of value,
certain character can condense it or concentrate it, which grants the potency in the first place and is used to be the original way to gain higher dimensional hax

What do you mean by condensing?

Or in the sense that if a person has a higher-dimensional mind, all of it is focused on the mind controlling a single entity. That's equivalent to an uncountable amount of mind all at once attempting to control your mind.

Unless this is a concept within the story, there is no reason to assume higher dimensional beings (something physical) will have higher dimensional minds. The very notion doesn’t really make sense, dimensions are physical phenomena, you would be suggesting that minds have physical structure and take up space, when its a very specific abstract notion.

Of course, as I said, fiction can do anything, so it would have to be a concept the story introduces not something assumed to be true.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

What do you mean by condensing?


Unless this is a concept within the story, there is no reason to assume higher dimensional beings (something physical) will have higher dimensional minds. The very notion doesn’t really make sense, dimensions are physical phenomena, you would be suggesting that minds have physical structure and take up space, when its a very specific abstract notion.

Of course, as I said, fiction can do anything, so it would have to be a concept the story introduces not something assumed to be true.

5-dimensional brain sending brainwaves ahhh. Not all hax has to adhere to nonphysicality. and Nonphysicality does not always assume they will somehow be superior or transcendent to any level of physical existence as higher dimensions could also have differing higher dimensional fundamentals of laws than lower. Reality hax, Concept hax etc are not immune to this. They are only granted things based on the lore depth, feats and etc. else NLF

Condensing is concentrating it into a singular point, regardless of how small,l instead of just the conventional range.

Dt also argued layers people could technically resist the range type higher dimensional hax by completely blocking everything in the place the layered guy is in. but if one has no feat to resist condensed hax from higher dimension, then they shouldn't be assumed to resist it

 

[Voidnether]

1. Can a character with layered 3D hax ever outhax someone with baseline 4D hax/resistances? Or do layers =/= dimensional difference? As far as I am aware, a character can have an infinite amount of layered hax for any given tier and it would equate to zilch if the opponent's hax and/or resistances are an entire dimensional tier above them but maybe I'm wrong so I just wanted to be sure.

Depends, if baseline 4-D there is a smurf range then the layered 3-D is better. If that baseline 4-D is a smurf potency then it is better than layered 3-D simply because there's a quantitative superiority between them and this same quantitative superiority makes it way better than layered 3-D even if it is infinite (There's a staff discussion thread talking about nlf in durability negation, you can check it out that they're going to change the qualitative superiority in smurf hax into quantitative).

Using a more slightly contentious example, say character A has infinite 4D layers for NEP 2, character B has NEP 2 but it has 0 layers it is however, 5D NEP 2. In this example, would character B be unable to bypass the NEP 2 because NEP is wanked because character A simply has infinite layers?

If it is smurf range, character B wouldn't but if it was smurf potency then he could because it is assumed to be able to overpower all resistances that don't have feats or statements of being able to perform on an equal or superior level. That in practice means that, for example, a 3D character that has abilities with Low 1-C smurf potency would be able to overcome all the regular Tier 2 or lower resistances as if they weren't there.
Notice how NEP at most only gives you immunity, and that's 4-D (Tier 2) whilst simultaneously immunity is just the highest degree of resistance on the resistance page?
Smurf potency bypasses them.

It is important to note that, contrary to abilities that (additionally or exclusively) have smurf power or potency, abilities with smurf range or area of effect alone do not necessarily bypass all regular resistance on the level of the user.

I mean, that's just how I see them generally

 

[Voidnether]

One might argue that things like Acausality, Transduality and NEP aren't bound by dimensions but that's just not true

There's a thread back then in which Acausality is bound by dimensionality (It was related with the Acausality Type 5 revision back in 2022 afaik), subsequently Transduality is also bound (Transduality as of now, if it still requires a qualitative superiority then it is not bound by dimensions but rather by tier in which it works on a 1-A scale, idk tho)

Acausality vs HD Causality

Title is self explanatory, this thread serves the purpose of finding out if characters with type 4 Acausality can resist higher dimensional forms of Causality / Fate Manipulation. Example being that character A has type 4 Acausality but their cosmology only extends to 3-D in size and Potency...

vsbattles.com

About NEP.. I mean.. Before Shiroiyo made a thread about how redundant placing dimensionality / tiers on their abilities (cause we could just explain it on the verse page or explain it ourselves), we had this and I believe since Hoyoverse is 12-D as of now, its NEP should be limited to 12-D in terms of dimensionality regardless even when there's no 12-D in the NEP on the current profile

IX (Honkai: Star Rail)

IX is the Aeon that presides over the Path of Nihility. THEIR existence is a mystery. IX doesn't interact with the other Aeons. THEY believe that the ultimate fate of the multiverse is nothingness, and therefore, worthless. Tier: 1-B Name: IX, IX the Nihility, All-Consuming Black Hole, The...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SweetDao]

One might argue that things like Acausality, Transduality and NEP aren't bound by dimensions but that's just not true

It is true, tho. The only reason it wouldn't would be, at most, because we want to avoid NLF. It makes no sense whatsoever that a guy having acausality type 5 would only be "12D" when acausality isn't intrinsically linked to dimensionality. You can argue it's different with qualitative superiority, but certainly not with quantitative ones.

The example with NEP is even worse. What do you mean you have a "non-existent body but only on the scale of 12D" ???. Like what, when the guy would suddenly get into a 13D realm his body will not be NEP anymore??

 

[Voidnether]

It is true, tho. The only reason it wouldn't would be, at most, because we want to avoid NLF. It makes no sense whatsoever that a guy having acausality type 5 would only be "12D" when acausality isn't intrinsically linked to dimensionality. You can argue it's different with qualitative superiority, but certainly not with quantitative ones.

It makes sense only in the way if the causality system is limited to that dimensionality, and he's independent from that causality system completely with it being uninteractable.
There's a reason why the only immutable ones are the ones who are Tier 0, and below that: Well, it's just the lesser ones

The example with NEP is even worse. What do you mean you have a "non-existent body but only on the scale of 12D" ???. Like what, when the guy would suddenly get into a 13D realm his body will not be NEP anymore??

When his NEP is limited to 12D, it means that his immunity there is limited to that scale, not that he'll lose his NEP when he enters higher dimensional realm, that one lowk was funny tho I gotta admit

The reason why most of them are limited by dimensionality, is well so people don't assume they're 1-A by default even if the verse limits the scope of what they could reach (Transduality one is something I don't wanna argue about tbh)

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm confused. I thought we always assumed that if a character has 4-D resistances (even if baseline), they'd still resist even Infinite layers of hax. And another case, if a character has 4-D hax, they'd be able to affect someone with 3-D resistance, even if the latter has infinite layers.

Or has dimensional stuff, even if shown infinite superiority, been technically downgraded to just range in terms of Hax?

 

[SweetDao]

It makes sense only in the way if the causality system is limited to that dimensionality, and he's independent from that causality system completely with it being uninteractable.
There's a reason why the only immutable ones are the ones who are Tier 0, and below that: Well, it's just the lesser ones

Yeah right, but that's not the problem. Acausality, concept and such aren't limited to dimensionality. Saying that "this character has 6D concept manip" or "That guy has 5D acausality" makes no sense whatsoever. Unless the verse itself "dimensioned" the stuff, it shouldn't be limited to dimensionality.

When his NEP is limited to 12D, it means that his immunity there is limited to that scale, not that he'll lose his NEP when he enters higher dimensional realm, that one lowk was funny tho I gotta admit

NEP = Having one or more aspect of your being as nonexistent.

There is no "immunity", it's a feature of the character. Would you say that a 3D character having three arms would suddenly "lose the fact he has three arms" if put in a 4D realm? No, because it's just how he is. A 13D character wouldn't be able to interact with a 12D being that has some sort of NEP. I don't see why "the 13D being would bypass that immunity" how would they even interact with the guy??

The reason why most of them are limited by dimensionality, is well so people don't assume they're 1-A by default even if the verse limits the scope of what they could reach (Transduality one is something I don't wanna argue about tbh)

It's not a matter of saying that "they all are 1-A", it's a matter of range. If you have concept manipulation, you don't assume that the character could interact or target a higher-dimensional being, but if he has shown to be able to do so, it's not a matter of "potency" or having"4D concept manip", it's just a matter of reaching the target.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm confused. I thought we always assumed that if a character has 4-D resistances (even if baseline), they'd still resist even Infinite layers of hax. And another case, if a character has 4-D hax, they'd be able to affect someone with 3-D resistance, even if the latter has infinite layers.

The only way it would be somewhat correct is with hax/abilites that relies on physicality (so basically 90% of the abilities indexed on the wiki). With hax that are more or less metaphysical, it just can't work. The concept manip of a 3D,4D or infiniteD being is strictly the same unless stated otherwise. The only difference is range.

 

[Rikimarox2]

The only way it would be somewhat correct is with hax/abilites that relies on physicality (so basically 90% of the abilities indexed on the wiki). With hax that are more or less metaphysical, it just can't work. The concept manip of a 3D,4D or infiniteD being is strictly the same unless stated otherwise. The only difference is range.

So (assuming it specifically wasn't shown that Concept Manip in a verse was tied to dimensionality), would a 3-D Guy, who has CM resistance, resist the CM of a 4-D guy?

If so, then oh boy. Is that accepted in the wiki? Cause it honestly kind of makes sense to me, at least when talking about dimensionality and not 1-A shenanigans.

 

[SweetDao]

So (assuming it specifically wasn't shown that Concept Manip in a verse was tied to dimensionality), would a 3-D Guy, who has CM resistance, resist the CM of a 4-D guy?

My question is, why wouldn't it? Assuming there is no problem of range, tell me why the fact the guy simply has another spatial axe of movement (and a higher durability/perhaps higher Ap) would allow him to bypass the CM resistance of the 3D guy.

Edit : I got confused a bit but I think I corrected the stuff

 

[Rikimarox2]

My question is, why wouldn't it? Assuming there is no problem of range, tell me why the fact the guy simply has another spatial axe of movement (and a higher durability) would allow him to resist the CM of the 3D guy.

I'm kinda with you on this one, I don't see why it wouldn't work, and even if there is a problem range, as long as a single physicality is there for the 3-D guy to target, why would he not be able to affect the 4-D guy even if lacking the range to target him entirely, as if CM is not tied to Dimensionality, I don't see why not having the range to target the entire body would really matter as long as they have the range to target at least some aspect of them in the 3-D world, even if infinitely large.

The problem is, the Wiki treats CM as being tied to dimensionality, iirc.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm kinda with you on this one, I don't see why it wouldn't work, and even if there is a problem range, as long as a single physicality is there for the 3-D guy to target, why would he not be able to affect the 4-D guy even if lacking the range to target him entirely, as if CM is not tied to Dimensionality, I don't see why not having the range to target the entire body would really matter as long as they have the range to target at least some aspect of them in the 3-D world, even if infinitely large.

The problem is, the Wiki treats CM as being tied to dimensionality, iirc.

Yeah, we agree on it. I can understand why it would be needed for smurf hax to get some sort of specification (like a fire manip of a 3D being capable of hurting higher-dimensional beings) but for the high-tier hax, it becomes idiotic.

"Yeah, the guy is 3D and has plot manip but since he's against a 4D entity with no hax, no feat, no nothing, he loses. The added spatial axe was just too strong".

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah right, but that's not the problem. Acausality, concept and such aren't limited to dimensionality. Saying that "this character has 6D concept manip" or "That guy has 5D acausality" makes no sense whatsoever. Unless the verse itself "dimensioned" the stuff, it shouldn't be limited to dimensionality.

I can't say much other than blaming the standards at this point, because that's just how it is even if causality and dimensionality aren't intertwined/linked to each other

NEP = Having one or more aspect of your being as nonexistent.

There is no "immunity", it's a feature of the character. Would you say that a 3D character having three arms would suddenly "lose the fact he has three arms" if put in a 4D realm? No, because it's just how he is. A 13D character wouldn't be able to interact with a 12D being that has some sort of NEP. I don't see why "the 13D being would bypass that immunity" how would they even interact with the guy??

Interaction doesn't matter at all when it is a higher dimensional hax (potency ones), yeah you can't interact with the guy physically because that's the whole point of NPI — By interacting them like they're physical objects to you. It's not you who will interact to them, but rather the hax themselves since that NEP guy isn't capable of tanking a higher dimensional hax, it's like nuking a NEP character honestly.
Yeah, he lacks this certain part of reality but that reality is limited to dimensionality, would he lack that part of reality in which that reality is higher than what he lacks even though that part of reality are the same? With the only difference being their dimensionality? No.
The entire point of NPI was for you to be able to interact him physically, not your hax (especially if it's a higher dimension one)

It's not a matter of saying that "they all are 1-A", it's a matter of range. If you have concept manipulation, you don't assume that the character could interact or target a higher-dimensional being, but if he has shown to be able to do so, it's not a matter of "potency" or having"4D concept manip", it's just a matter of reaching the target

If your conceptual manipulation is 1-A in potency, but that hax range is only 3-D, as stupid as it sounds: That conceptual manipulation is still not able to interact HDE beings above 3-D except if its range is also 1-A.
Hax Potency is just a way to bypass their immunity and resistances if their dimensionality isn't equal to the potency, range on the other hand is how the hax potency would affect them

 

[Voidnether]

The standard sucks but that's just how it is, a simple analogy being that this NEP character lacks this part of reality, but that part of reality is just 3-D whilst this part of reality (same one) on the other hand is 4-D and he doesn't lack that

 

[Voidnether]

One might be tempted to say that it shouldn't be bound by dimensions, but it's still the same loophole: There's a NEP character in which he lacks causality as a whole, and causality on every dimensions work the same. So, the only way through would be to bypass that immunity or negate it, right? Then you realize, he doesn't lack causality that works on a 1-A scale due to 1-A not being bound by dimensions anymore..
Therefore, you said it could be bypassed by causality that works on a 1-A scale.
But causality works the same so he should be lacking that 1-A causality, at this point you'd just be saying that the concept of "outerversal" in themselves sucks.
And at this point, why just not say that he lacks causality that operates on a Tier 0 reality?
All because he lacks causality in a 4-D reality. That's why even if he lacks causality, if that causality manipulation is 5-D, except he has the feat to lack a 5 dimensional causality. It works on him

 

[SweetDao]

Interaction doesn't matter at all when it is a higher dimensional hax (potency ones), yeah you can't interact with the guy physically because that's the whole point of NPI — By interacting them like they're physical objects to you. It's not you who will interact to them, but rather the hax themselves since that NEP guy isn't capable of tanking a higher dimensional hax, it's like nuking a NEP character honestly.

"Higher-dimensional hax" just doesn't exist, man.

It's not even a matter of "physically". A 3D guy with a NEP concept would suddenly be able to get targeted by a standard 4D guy just because said guy is 4D??

Yeah, he lacks this certain part of reality but that reality is limited to dimensionality, would he lack that part of reality in which that reality is higher than what he lacks even though that part of reality are the same? With the only difference being their dimensionality? No.
The entire point of NPI was for you to be able to interact him physically, not your hax (especially if it's a higher dimension one)

No, it's wrong. it doesn't change his fundamental aspect. It's not because the guy lives in a 12D cosmology and that he has NEP, that he would suddenly "lose" its NEP against a 13D character from another verse. You're talking about NPI and such, but that's not relevant here. You're trying to postulate that you could brute force the NEP of the guy via "pure strength" due to your higher-dimensionality, which is idiotic.

But let me entertain you a bit. What if there exist character A and character B. Both are 3D. Character A has NEP (whichever aspect, it's not important) and Character B is uncountably infinitely stronger (stats, abilities,...) than Character A, does that mean that he could stomp character A NEP then? Because, you know, the difference between the two are equal to the difference between dimensions assumed on the wiki.

If your conceptual manipulation is 1-A in potency, but that hax range is only 3-D, as stupid as it sounds: That conceptual manipulation is still not able to interact HDE beings above 3-D except if its range is also 1-A.

Yeah, sure, because it's a matter of range. You're just proving my point. The effect of the "1-A" conceptual manipulation would STRICTLY be the same as a 3D one, only the range is different. If the 3D guy has CM, with a 4D range, it doesn't suddenly "change the potency to 4D", it just means his CM can affect 4D beings.

a simple analogy being that this NEP character lacks this part of reality, but that part of reality is just 3-D whilst this part of reality (same one) on the other hand is 4-D and he doesn't lack that

NEP can't be dimensioned. Either you don't have a concept in you or you have one. You can't say "actually, he only lacks a 3D concept, but he still have a 4D concept", it's stupid, and I'm sure you know it.

Then you realize, he doesn't lack causality that works on a 1-A scale due to 1-A not being bound by dimensions anymore..

I've explained a bit above that the only difference would be regarding qualitative superiority, so on that one I agree.

 

[Voidnether]

"Higher-dimensional hax" just doesn't exist, man.

It's not even a matter of "physically". A 3D guy with a NEP concept would suddenly be able to get targeted by a standard 4D guy just because said guy is 4D??

No, it's wrong. it doesn't change his fundamental aspect. It's not because the guy lives in a 12D cosmology and that he has NEP, that he would suddenly "lose" its NEP against a 13D character from another verse. You're talking about NPI and such, but that's not relevant here. You're trying to postulate that you could brute force the NEP of the guy via "pure strength" due to your higher-dimensionality, which is idiotic.

But let me entertain you a bit. What if there exist character A and character B. Both are 3D. Character A has NEP (whichever aspect, it's not important) and Character B is uncountably infinitely stronger (stats, abilities,...) than Character A, does that mean that he could stomp character A NEP then? Because, you know, the difference between the two are equal to the different of dimensions assumed on the wiki.

Yeah, sure, because it's a matter of range. You're just proving my point. The effect of the "1-A" conceptual manipulation would STRICTLY be the same as a 3D one, only the range is different. If the 3D guy has CM, with a 4D range, it doesn't suddenly "change the potency to 4D", it just means his CM can affect 4D beings.

NEP can't be dimensioned. Either you don't have a concept in you or you have one. You can't say "actually, he only lacks a 3D concept, but he still have a 4D concept", it's stupid, and I'm sure you know it.

I've explained a bit above that the only difference would be regarding qualitative superiority, so on that one I agree.

Then just treat smurf hax as a qualitative superiority, and the quantitative ones cant be treated as a smurf hax.

 

[SweetDao]

Then just treat smurf hax as a qualitative superiority, and the quantitative ones cant be treated as a smurf hax.

I mean, you can have "smurf hax" related to quantitative difference. If you're a 3D being with a fire manipulation capable of hurting nD beings, which is something your physical stats can't, it's obviously a smurf hax. Why? Because the fire manipulation interact directly with the (higher) durability of a higher-dimensional being which means it has the potency capable of hurting them.

It just doesn't work that way with stuff like NEP, Concept, plot...

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Holy...seems this became very active while I was asleep lol

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

NEP can have layers yeah, doesn't mean it has to be dimensioned. Heck, there is no reason for it to be so.
Having layers with CM is fine, it just depends on how it's treated in verse. Like for example, a concept being the "fundamental" concept that makes all other concept possible would probably be one layer of CM if shown to be stronger and such.

Well yeah, I understand that but then if it can't be dimensioned or whatever how do characters get infinite hax layers? I know infinite layers =/= dimensional difference but wouldn't you be able to argue that it'd literally fit the framework of quantitative superiority after awhile?

HDE makes the higher-dimensional being "more or less" resistant and invulnerable over anything lower-dimensional. Not in the sense that he possesses a specific ability to do so, but more so that the lower-dimensional being wouldn't be able to target any meaningful part of his body. Imagine being able to "only" affect a single square (among an uncountably infinite number of them) inside a cube. It's literally an infinitesimal amount of damage.

So what if 2 characters are 5D and one has HDE while the other does not? Would HDE in this case just be completely useless and fluff or would it still have some kind of affect?

I guess you could see it that way.

Gotcha, thanks for answering these questions man. I wasn't expecting the thread to get a bit more attention like this

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

nD hax still exist.
Although the range is far higher in terms of value,
certain character can condense it or concentrate it, which grants the potency in the first place and is used to be the original way to gain higher dimensional hax

Or in the sense that if a person has a higher-dimensional mind, all of it is focused on the mind controlling a single entity. That's equivalent to an uncountable amount of mind all at once attempting to control your mind.

What is nD hax btw? I'm not aware of the acronym (I'm assuming it means just like infinite D/Unquantifiable D or smth)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Dt also argued layers people could technically resist the range type higher dimensional hax by completely blocking everything in the place the layered guy is in. but if one has no feat to resist condensed hax from higher dimension, then they shouldn't be assumed to resist it

Huh...that's interesting, can you send the thread where this was said so I can read up on it more?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Depends, if baseline 4-D there is a smurf range then the layered 3-D is better. If that baseline 4-D is a smurf potency then it is better than layered 3-D simply because there's a quantitative superiority between them and this same quantitative superiority makes it way better than layered 3-D even if it is infinite (There's a staff discussion thread talking about nlf in durability negation, you can check it out that they're going to change the qualitative superiority in smurf hax into quantitative).

If it is smurf range, character B wouldn't but if it was smurf potency then he could because it is assumed to be able to overpower all resistances that don't have feats or statements of being able to perform on an equal or superior level. That in practice means that, for example, a 3D character that has abilities with Low 1-C smurf potency would be able to overcome all the regular Tier 2 or lower resistances as if they weren't there.
Notice how NEP at most only gives you immunity, and that's 4-D (Tier 2) whilst simultaneously immunity is just the highest degree of resistance on the resistance page?
Smurf potency bypasses them.

I mean, that's just how I see them generally

Thank you, I will def go and give these a look. I had a similar understanding but SweetDao is making me question myself, which is why I wanna go and see what staff thinks