Question about the Naruto cosmology

[Tyrone_Dawson]

I've been back and forth on where I think Naruto scales because of some misconceptions people may have, so I'd like to bounce some things off and get some more opinions.

So first, one of the misconceptions I come across the most is:

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki's Dimensions.​

One of the main things i sees are people arguing that these dimensions are full-blown worlds, and I even see claims that they are small separate space-times themselves.

But I see that as them not understanding that there are multiple ways the term "Dimension" can be used in fiction. For example, the term "Dimension" can be used in the following ways in fiction:

• Parallel/Mirror World
• Pocket Dimension
• Spiritual/Astral Realms
• The In-Between Dimension

And there are other ways it can be used, but you get the gist.
And in the case of people who are trying to claim that Kaguya is universal because of the "Dimensions," they are confusing "Dimension" with Universe or Space-Time.

Dimension vs Timeline: Timelines are temporal necessities for a universe to function, no matter the dimensionality. Timelines are NOT dimensions. For a timeline to exist, there needs to be at least a 1-D plane, but that in no way means every dimension has a space-time.
Anyway, moving on.
People also argue that Kaguya Ōtsutsuki is universal because she can create, manipulate, and destroy multiple space-time dimensions.

First of all creation of multiple 3-D constructs doesn't make you 4-D, and the same thing goes for the other two claims.

Second of all, in no way does it state that each dimension is its own space-time, so that argument is completely garbage.

Other arguments point out the stars and planets in some dimensions.

Well, there are 8 planets in our solar system, 1 star, and there are over 950 natural satellite moons as well. I get that DC isn't the same as AP, but still. it wouldn't give her anywhere near the capability to be galaxy, much less universal.

For example, our galaxy contains an estimated 100-400 billion stars, and let's assume there are an average of 7 planets per star. That's at least 700-Billion planets. The galaxy contains an estimated. It's an incredible stretch to claim she is galaxy, much less universal.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Let me know your take.

 

[Accel008]

I've been back and forth on where I think Naruto scales because of some misconceptions people may have, so I'd like to bounce some things off and get some more opinions.

So first, one of the misconceptions I come across the most is:

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki's Dimensions.​

One of the main things i sees are people arguing that these dimensions are full-blown worlds, and I even see claims that they are small separate space-times themselves.

But I see that as them not understanding that there are multiple ways the term "Dimension" can be used in fiction. For example, the term "Dimension" can be used in the following ways in fiction:

• Parallel/Mirror World
• Pocket Dimension
• Spiritual/Astral Realms
• The In-Between Dimension

And there are other ways it can be used, but you get the gist.
And in the case of people who are trying to claim that Kaguya is universal because of the "Dimensions," they are confusing "Dimension" with Universe or Space-Time.

Dimension vs Timeline: Timelines are temporal necessities for a universe to function, no matter the dimensionality. Timelines are NOT dimensions. For a timeline to exist, there needs to be at least a 1-D plane, but that in no way means every dimension has a space-time.
Anyway, moving on.
People also argue that Kaguya Ōtsutsuki is universal because she can create, manipulate, and destroy multiple space-time dimensions.

First of all creation of multiple 3-D constructs doesn't make you 4-D, and the same thing goes for the other two claims.

Second of all, in no way does it state that each dimension is its own space-time, so that argument is completely garbage.

Other arguments point out the stars and planets in some dimensions.

Well, there are 8 planets in our solar system, 1 star, and there are over 950 natural satellite moons as well. I get that DC isn't the same as AP, but still. it wouldn't give her anywhere near the capability to be galaxy, much less universal.

For example, our galaxy contains an estimated 100-400 billion stars, and let's assume there are an average of 7 planets per star. That's at least 700-Billion planets. The galaxy contains an estimated. It's an incredible stretch to claim she is galaxy, much less universal.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Let me know your take.

Hi.I'm just stating my opinion:

First of all, this is a discussion that has existed within this Wiki for a long time, and every time it is brought up, it is met with strong rejection. However, there have always been proponents of this view, as in any other debate. This is not a religion where we claim our belief is the 'true' one and others are 'liars' with false beliefs; the goal is to convince the other side through evidence.

Regarding the Terminology of 'Dimension':

As a word, 'Dimension' does not have a single, universal definition; its meaning is entirely context-dependent.

For instance, the dimensions of an n-dimensional tensor are fundamentally different from the dimensions of an n-dimensional Euclidean space or an n-dimensional Hyperbolic space.

Consider even these historical and technical variations of the term 'dimension':
• Equatorial Extension: In classical astronomy, it refers to the angular distance of a celestial body from the celestial equator (measured in degrees).
• Innate Spatiality (Pure Extension): In metaphysics, it refers to 'abstract space' or the inherent extension that exists independently of the matter occupying it.

This is a term whose definition you must determine based on the story’s narrative, not external assumptions. If you wish to claim a dimension is 'this' or 'that,' you must bring evidence from the story.

In the story, these dimensions are defined as worlds, parallel worlds, alternate dimensions, space-times, etc. It is important to note that we attribute these definitions to them precisely because the narrative uses these descriptions for the word 'Dimension.' If you have an alternative definition, you must provide it from within the story.

The Case for Universal Kaguya:

Let us consolidate the arguments for Kaguya’s Universal status. Once we reach an agreement here, we can proceed to other topics.

1. Analysis of Databook and V-Jump Statements:

According to the Databook, Kaguya 'interchanges' those dimensions with the world. It specifically states:

'She can move the world she's in together with other people to a different dimension.'
If you assume the 'world' she is in refers only to the 'ground' (planet surface), that is logically flawed. Are you currently 'on' the Earth or 'in' the Earth?

This logic is reinforced in V-Jump:

'The Ancestor of Chakra, Otsutsuki Kaguya... possesses such overwhelming power that she can summon the entirety of a space (Kūkan - 空間)!!!'
Given these statements, claiming her power is 'limited' or 'planetary' is irrational. This confirms Kaguya exerts influence over a universal space.

2. The Semantic Range of 'Sekai' (世界):

In the Databook, and through characters like Kakashi and Kaguya, these dimensions are introduced as Sekai.

The word Sekai translates to 'World,' but it refers to a part of the universe that is all-encompassing from a human perspective. A simple example is 'the people of this world.'

When we say:
Jp: この世界には、色々な人がいる。
Rm: 'Kono Sekai ni wa, iroiro na hito ga iru'
En: (In this world, there are various people), the concept conveyed is 'in this society.'

However, the term is also used for the Universe. Thus, Sekai can be defined as 'society,' 'the planet and its life,' or 'the universe.' Since Kaguya’s dimensions are undeniably proven not to be the first two (society/planet), the only remaining definition is 'Universe.'

3. The Otsutsuki Perspective:

Furthermore, the Otsutsuki—who have a profound understanding of the cosmos and travel through it—also refer to these dimensions as Sekai, even though they have no trouble calling a planet a 'Planet' (Hoshi).

4. Parallelism and Visual Feats:

Kaguya’s dimensions are introduced as being parallel to the main world.

Kakashi (Manga): Refers to them as 'Alternate Dimensions.'
Naruto (Boruto Anime): Repeats similar terminology.(ikkai)
Light Novels: Use the term 'Isekai,' which translates to 'Parallel Universe.'

These arguments are based on official statements. If you feel statements are insufficient, we have visual feats in the games showing countless stars. These are the primary reasons why this scaling is justified. Instead of refuting the actual arguments, you have shifted the topic and labeled these points as 'garbage' or 'worthless.'

Ultimately, these reasons are far superior to those of other verses that are granted 'Universal' status simply for having 'parallel worlds,' even when those worlds were previously part of a single universe. If we were to apply your logic there, it would create contradictions and break the narrative. Kaguya’s case, by comparison, is much more consistent.

 

[Tyrone_Dawson]

Hi.I'm just stating my opinion:

First of all, this is a discussion that has existed within this Wiki for a long time, and every time it is brought up, it is met with strong rejection. However, there have always been proponents of this view, as in any other debate. This is not a religion where we claim our belief is the 'true' one and others are 'liars' with false beliefs; the goal is to convince the other side through evidence.

Regarding the Terminology of 'Dimension':

As a word, 'Dimension' does not have a single, universal definition; its meaning is entirely context-dependent.

For instance, the dimensions of an n-dimensional tensor are fundamentally different from the dimensions of an n-dimensional Euclidean space or an n-dimensional Hyperbolic space.

Consider even these historical and technical variations of the term 'dimension':
• Equatorial Extension: In classical astronomy, it refers to the angular distance of a celestial body from the celestial equator (measured in degrees).
• Innate Spatiality (Pure Extension): In metaphysics, it refers to 'abstract space' or the inherent extension that exists independently of the matter occupying it.

This is a term whose definition you must determine based on the story’s narrative, not external assumptions. If you wish to claim a dimension is 'this' or 'that,' you must bring evidence from the story.

In the story, these dimensions are defined as worlds, parallel worlds, alternate dimensions, space-times, etc. It is important to note that we attribute these definitions to them precisely because the narrative uses these descriptions for the word 'Dimension.' If you have an alternative definition, you must provide it from within the story.

The Case for Universal Kaguya:

Let us consolidate the arguments for Kaguya’s Universal status. Once we reach an agreement here, we can proceed to other topics.

1. Analysis of Databook and V-Jump Statements:

According to the Databook, Kaguya 'interchanges' those dimensions with the world. It specifically states:

'She can move the world she's in together with other people to a different dimension.'
If you assume the 'world' she is in refers only to the 'ground' (planet surface), that is logically flawed. Are you currently 'on' the Earth or 'in' the Earth?

This logic is reinforced in V-Jump:

'The Ancestor of Chakra, Otsutsuki Kaguya... possesses such overwhelming power that she can summon the entirety of a space (Kūkan - 空間)!!!'
Given these statements, claiming her power is 'limited' or 'planetary' is irrational. This confirms Kaguya exerts influence over a universal space.

2. The Semantic Range of 'Sekai' (世界):

In the Databook, and through characters like Kakashi and Kaguya, these dimensions are introduced as Sekai.

The word Sekai translates to 'World,' but it refers to a part of the universe that is all-encompassing from a human perspective. A simple example is 'the people of this world.'

When we say:
Jp: この世界には、色々な人がいる。
Rm: 'Kono Sekai ni wa, iroiro na hito ga iru'
En: (In this world, there are various people), the concept conveyed is 'in this society.'

However, the term is also used for the Universe. Thus, Sekai can be defined as 'society,' 'the planet and its life,' or 'the universe.' Since Kaguya’s dimensions are undeniably proven not to be the first two (society/planet), the only remaining definition is 'Universe.'

3. The Otsutsuki Perspective:

Furthermore, the Otsutsuki—who have a profound understanding of the cosmos and travel through it—also refer to these dimensions as Sekai, even though they have no trouble calling a planet a 'Planet' (Hoshi).

4. Parallelism and Visual Feats:

Kaguya’s dimensions are introduced as being parallel to the main world.

Kakashi (Manga): Refers to them as 'Alternate Dimensions.'
Naruto (Boruto Anime): Repeats similar terminology.(ikkai)
Light Novels: Use the term 'Isekai,' which translates to 'Parallel Universe.'

These arguments are based on official statements. If you feel statements are insufficient, we have visual feats in the games showing countless stars. These are the primary reasons why this scaling is justified. Instead of refuting the actual arguments, you have shifted the topic and labeled these points as 'garbage' or 'worthless.'

Ultimately, these reasons are far superior to those of other verses that are granted 'Universal' status simply for having 'parallel worlds,' even when those worlds were previously part of a single universe. If we were to apply your logic there, it would create contradictions and break the narrative. Kaguya’s case, by comparison, is much more consistent.

Look I’m just giving my interpretation and stating the facts, that’s it.