Questions about the Endless(DC/Vertigo)

[FaMaGo]

What are the true limits and reach of the Endless? They seem to be part of the main DC multiverse, but then there is Death, who can leave it any time she wants, and exists even in other Creations(like Lucifer's). It's also said that when Creation was made, Destiny was already there, so that means he can also exist outside of it. But if that's the case, why does he die, when Creation ends? Is he connected/binded-to Yahweh's Creation only? And if he and his other siblings are(binded to it), why is Death the exception(since BOTH Death and Destiny existed even before it did)? I mean, is Death above the Presence itself(meaning, she is able to claim him)? And what about her parents(Mother Night and Father Time), are they above Yahweh/Presence too?

It seems DC/Vertigo wants some of the Endless(mainly Death), to exist in every Creation, not just Yahweh's(since she exists in Lucifer's, and can freely walk through the Void/white-space itself). But the problem is that DC/Vertigo made the white-space/void, a representation of fiction itself, being the white page where everything is drawn in. So is DC/Vertigo telling us that Death of the Endless is death in all of fiction? LMAO, how stupid is that?

 

[FaMaGo]

Bump.

 

[FaMaGo]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask ClassicNESfa to comment here if you wish.

 

[FaMaGo]

You can ask ClassicNESfa to comment here if you wish.

Will do, thankyou.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

While I doubt Neil Gaiman or Mike Carey originally intended to suggest that the Endless reach into other fictional narratives, that does indeed seem to be something Grant Morrison implied during his commentary about how the Overvoid represents the paper on which all fiction is drawn- other creations in the void relating to Marvel, Archie, etc. The Endless are present in all creations throughout the void because they are manifestations of the seven primal truths of existence. Obviously, DC does not hold any copyright over those other franchises, so they cannot dictate what canonically exists in those worlds, but that's not really the point.

DC and their writers aren't particularly interested in whether other companies accept their portrayal of the fictionverse or not. The purpose behind Gaiman and Carey's commentary was to emphasize the inescapable nature of the forces the Endless represent. They are necessary truths in any and all versions of the universe. The purpose behind Morrison's commentary was to excite imagination within the reader, proposing a model for how all their favorite stories across hundreds of companies might ultimately be connected- prompting headcanons about Death visiting Uncle Ben or Lucifer visiting Warhammer 40k during his trek through the void. Clearly, our own wiki standards will not allow us to scale things like that- we are not going to announce that the Dark Tower series is just another speck floating in the Overvoid, for example- but nobody in DC bases their cosmos off of an attempt to win hypothetical VS fights online anyway.

They only wrote those things to inspire creativity in their fans. It's cool to imagine that Death of the Endless is literally the concept of death in a very real sense, and every time anybody in any story dies, Death of the Endless is there to greet them. But that's all there is to it, and obviously, we can't let that influence our tiering on this wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, but I obviously disagree with first cross-scaling Gaiman and Morrison, and then cross-scaling DC Comics with all of fiction to arrive at the conclusion.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Right. I don't think cross-scaling Giaman and Morrison is a problem in this instance because Morrison's actions clearly suggest he knew what he was doing and was making deliberate decisions based on his knowledge of Gaiman's work, but it doesn't matter because the conclusion then involved cross-scaling those stories with all of fiction immediately afterwards, which is obviously something we don't allow. DC stays in DC.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed. No problem.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

IDK if this happened but I swear that in a She Hulk storyline, a girl that looks like Death of The Endless appeared in this one panel but I could be wrong

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Should we just close this then? I think that's a pretty definitive answer to the problem.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Yeah, I mean VBW already has rules regarding cross scaling so this shouldn't be an issue at all

 

[Antvasima]

Peter David also had Death of the Endless show up during Rick Jones' wedding, but that was just a togue-in-cheek reference. It is still just a fictional character within a specific fictional setting, envisioned by a single human writer, not the real world abstract concept itself.

Anyway, I will close this, yes.