Rakudai Ikki LS downgrade and desperado stuff

[Ionliosite]

Power boost disguised as flowery language. Feats can be attributed to Desperado being like their super saiyan forms, in that they just activate the forms and overpower

This argument is automatically flawed because Desperado doesn't make them physically stronger, just gives them a bigger mana supply + not being bound by the causality system. Ikki was no more powerful than he was before becoming a Desperado during his match with Stella that he was after, so Desperado being a power boost is wrong.

 

[Schnee_One]

Desperado does tie in to physical strength somewhat, hence excessive awakening

 

[Ionliosite]

Excessive Awakening is more advanced than regular Desperado and has a couple more differences, but Ikki doesn't have it, so it doesn't really change my point.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Power boost

Power boost is funnily enough a side effect to the fate shit. You don't get a power boost you are just allowed to increase magic capacity because you defy fate.

disguised as flowery language.

Had these quotes been on people who weren't desperados... yeah that's flowery. These quotes on people who exist beyond fate and causality, that have shown dozens of applications of fate and causality hax as well as having had entire chapters worth of mechanics explanation being flowery? Yeah, no.

Feats can be attributed to Desperado being like their super saiyan forms

Desperado isn't a form, you can't just transform back. And I also remember that time super sayans went beyond fate and causality and started manipulating them too. Such a good episode that one.

, in that they just activate the forms and overpower the Adamantine armor for Ikki

Ikki specifically couldn't kill iris without influencing causality so...no. And ikki had been a desperado for quite some time there.

and the big dude for Stella.

Big dude..... ya talking about xiaoli?

Stella’s thing doesn’t sound viable to begin with given I doubt even without desperado, she had a nonzero chance of winning.

Your doubt, the doubt of someone who hasn't even read the fight.... over the cannon statement made by narration...... come on cal.

Desperado does tie in to physical strength somewhat, hence excessive awakening

Not really. First of all not even EA is physical related. What happens is your body fuses with your sword and you also gain a ton of magical power, which ends up increasing your stats (the magic), not physics related.

Second of all EA is fundamentally different from normal desperado. Desperado as stated is something "that turns the soul of a person into that of a demon" whereas EA is "the body matches the soul, since the soul is already that of a demon from the regular awakening your body turns into that weird demon like figure". EA is by nature a lot more physical related than normal desperado.

And thirdly, none of the cases I mentioned are done by EA desperados, only normal desperados. So there's that.

 

[Schnee_One]

<First of all not even EA is physical related.

<EA is by nature a lot more physical related than normal desperado.

Wot....

Nah Im kidding, I get your point

Also, I agree with Risci, and I do agree with this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nah Im kidding, I get your point

That was quite the save there.

Also, I agree with Risci, and I do agree with this

Agree with risci on what? The NEP thing? Cus I thought I'd make a separate thread for it since it has nothing to do with rakudai.

 

[Schnee_One]

The NEP and his general agreement on the ability

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I think it still breaks the series

yes I’m coming up with bs to stonewall

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The NEP and his general agreement on the ability

So you say "everything is fine aside from affecting NEP"? For the NEP we should have another thread, cus it's not related to Rakudai.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeah pretty much

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok, that's 2 agreements.

I think it still breaks the series

It does, which is why for pretty much the whole duration of vermillion empire arc they tried to turn Stella into a desperado cus she would be unable to fight desperados otherwise.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

yes I’m coming up with bs to stonewall

i like the honesty

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So how many more ppl do i need here? We have 2, possibly up to 4 (idk if dragon and due agree).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You need me to give up >:-[

 

[Duedate8898]

On Fatehax, I think it's pretty blatant so I agree with that and the lifting strength stuff.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You need me to give up >:-[

Im gonna beat you into submission.

But that's 4 agreements, possibly 5 (depending on Dragon's stance on this).

 

[Zencha9]

pretty straightforward i agree

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's 5

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It becomes super dumb when you take “I acted first therefore I win” at face value which in order to believe the Rakudai fate stuff as legit.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It becomes super dumb when you take “I acted first therefore I win” at face value

I hope you didn't turn the "who first interferes with causality/fate" into "who acts first".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Same diff for desperados. Also altering fare can be a simple as making a left turn when you were gonna make a right originally.

 

[Ionliosite]

Also altering fare can be a simple as making a left turn when you were gonna make a right originally.

I mean, yes, but that doesn't suddenly mean it stops being fatehax.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also altering fare can be a simple as making a left turn when you were gonna make a right originally.

Not only is that not "interfering with fate", that is just changing fate and is only for users of precog who change fate as a result of changing their choices. Whereas changing fate itself by manipulating it/manpulating causality is a whole different thing.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean not really. I can name a few instances of characters who were supposed to do one thing and wound up doing another. Yusuke in YYH wasn’t supposed to try to save that kid in the incident that resulted in Yusuke’s first death (and the kid would’ve had less scratches), for example.
Also that doesn’t change my point. Taking the statements at face value means that desperados have the first one to do anything, they win. Ikki fights Stella, Ikki used his passive desperado powers and moved first. He won. GG.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean not really. I can name a few instances of characters who were supposed to do one thing and wound up doing another. Yusuke in YYH wasn’t supposed to try to save that kid in the incident that resulted in Yusuke’s first death (and the kid would’ve had less scratches), for example.

Not done by interfering with causality/fate though.

Taking the statements at face value means that desperados have the first one to do anything, they win.

No, taking the statements at face value means they "are the first to interfere with causality/fate", not the 1st one to move.

Ikki fights Stella, Ikki used his passive desperado powers and moved first.

Nope, he used his desperado powers and fate ****** his opponent GG. It has nothing to do with moving first or 2nd.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also i thought your points would get better over time but this is getting sad cal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also i thought your points would get better over time but this is getting sad cal.

I literally said I’m coming up with bullshit to stonewall, Earl. I don’t know what else you expected.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean i was expecting some decent bullshit. Anyway. Do we need anyone else to agree before applying these?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Bump

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So can I add these?

 

[Schnee_One]

I think like one more staff checking would be good

I’ll contact @Ogbunabali since he’s knowledgeable on fate related stuff

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok sure.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Btw just some advertising: https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-nep-be-affected-by-fate.109828/

 

[Ogbunabali]

This is pretty long. Can you summarise the arguments?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just the OP tbh. The rest are just supporting evidence or arguments against the counterarguments.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Right now we treat the fate hax creating death of desperados as NLF if the desperado character is incapable of landing a killing blow on an enemy. However this is not the case. In the battle against Iris, this is stated:

It's not so easy to cut it. When Ikki hits her, his katana must slow down. And that will be enough. If Ikki's blade slows even for a split second, Iris will smash his head with her powerful halberd blow.

In other words, breaking orichalcos isn't cutting butter to Ikki, so Ikki wouldn't have been able to destroy orichalcos and kill iris before Iris killed him. However when he imbued it with desperado hax, this happened:

The true nature of the " Oikage " technique , which cut its fate.
It was only at the last moment that Iris noticed how the blade of the Intetsu , as if through a haze, passed through her Orichalcus armor and pierced deeply into her body.
The Orichalcus armor , cut by Ikki's causal desire, cracked and shattered into black dust.

I don't really see the argument here that it's impossible. The first quote just says that if he's fast enough he can kill her, and in the second quote he just achieved the speed to do it.

In neither of these quotes the issue for Ikki was never that he was really incapable, but instead that he didn't have the required speed. But with his Oikage technique he did have the speed needed to do it. A quick google search comes up with this quote

"Even his own shadow could not keep up with this strike's extreme speed. He was the concept of a slash incarnate. The goal of so many people, the peak they pursued. This final strike, combining the phenomenon and the awe it inspired, would be called thusly by people: Final secret sword - Oikage."

So he just got a speed amp in order to harm her.

"Irrelevant…! You will not try, you will not recognize ...! ” Stella remembered. As faced with the youngest Desperate on Edelberg. Taote Fu Xiaoli. Stella was a strong fighter. Everyone knew that. But the enemy ... in ordinary battles under ordinary conditions, out of ten battles, Stella would lose ten times. After all, the difference between her strength and the strength of the opponent was enormous. Stella admitted this fact without any questions. But still ... she won that mortal battle. Because the Desperate are able to redraw their fate of their own free will. In other words, whoever first takes the initiative and intervenes in fate will win. The power of fate, capable of crushing all the obstacles on the way.

This was seems to have potential, but it doesn't say how she won though. That's kind of important for the argument here. If she used some exploitation of weakness, or nuanced way, it wouldn't really make their fate manipulation be all end all.

And fate talk in this quote sounds like a metaphor, but since desperados are apparently manipulating fate directly I guess I can buy this being literal. But I'm not fully convinced.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't really see the argument here that it's impossible. The first quote just says that if he's fast enough he can kill her, and in the second quote he just achieved the speed to do it.

Actually it says that his blow would actually be stopped by the armor and she would kill Ikki in that moment:

It's not so easy to cut it. When Ikki hits her, his katana must slow down. And that will be enough. If Ikki's blade slows even for a split second, Iris will smash his head with her powerful halberd blow.

In neither of these quotes the issue for Ikki was never that he was really incapable, but instead that he didn't have the required speed. But with his Oikage technique he did have the speed needed to do it. A quick google search comes up with this quote

"Even his own shadow could not keep up with this strike's extreme speed. He was the concept of a slash incarnate. The goal of so many people, the peak they pursued. This final strike, combining the phenomenon and the awe it inspired, would be called thusly by people: Final secret sword - Oikage."

So he just got a speed amp in order to harm her.

Oikage is a technique actually. It's just a fast sword cut, but it's Oikage that wouldn't have been able to kill iris. The reason Ikki could kill Iris there wasn't because of speed, it's because of this:

After all, Ikki's katana was not only fast, but also very strong. Ikki put into his incredible blade all his skill trained in torment, all his soul and all the physical strength of his body. He put into the katana everything that shaped Ikki Kurogane's personality ... and not only. In addition to all of the above, he put in the culmination of his development - the essence of " Desperate ". Iris had to guess. Ikki always defeated enemies that could not be defeated. He was inferior in strength to his opponents. He lacked skill. But he won anyway. And now this desire to win was put into that single blow. He just couldn't lose. The moment he prepared to strike at Iris, his blade, which carried the entire history of his victories, merged with the gravitational pull of the fate of the Desperate , which had a great influence on the causality of this world. Ikki's nascent desire intervened in the history of the world and reduced to ashes the page where Ikki was to lose. The die is cast, the Rubicon is crossed. In the battle between the Desperate, the victory is won by the one who first intervenes in the causal relationships of the world. His desire destroyed possible defeat and formed at the tip of his blade as a causal force to cut everything in its path This was the real essence of the last secret blade - " Oikage ". - …and The true nature of the " Oikage " technique , which cut its fate. It was only at the last moment that Iris noticed how the blade of the Intetsu , as if through a haze, passed through her Orichalcus armor and pierced deeply into her body. The Orichalcus armor , cut by Ikki's causal desire, cracked and shattered into black dust.

I hope this gives a bit more context.

That's kind of important for the argument here. If she used some exploitation of weakness, or nuanced way, it wouldn't really make their fate manipulation be all end all.

I mean...does it matter? If she would lose 10/10 times what's the point of saying "abusing a weakness" if she couldn't win anyway? And no she didn't btw. She just awoke as a desperado and won.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Why didn't you quote that part in the first place? It's better than everything presented in the OP.

Again, it does sound metaphorical and not literal. But since desperado stuff is already accepted as being literal on the wiki it seems, I guess I'm fine with this because of that quote.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I thought it was in the OP then i checked and it wasn't. So big derp on my side.

As for whether they are flowery or not, you can take it to another thread if you wish, but i assure you they are not. There is so much stuff regarding Desperados it's pretty much impossible to argue against them being literal.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So.... can I apply the changes?