Ram minor speed downgrade, very little

[Fezzih_007]

My name is Fezzih_007! Not only am I clueless im also broke beyond compare! Please evaluate this CRT.

Anyway, ignoring the cringe above, this thread is to change a current problem in Ram intelligence section.
Hm? You ask why i changing the intelligence section, if the name of the CRT is about speed? Well...

Ram currently have this feat listed on the profile:

Even when her mana which she used for physical enhancement ran dry, thus being no different physically than a 18 year old girl, she was able to evade countless attacks from Garfiel using her intuition and talent[22

The scan:

So Ram here ran out of mana to enchanched her body, so she can't no longer is superhuman in stats, according with the scan. And Garfiel, the guy she fighting is still faster than her, so even with that advantage, she was still able to dodge all his attacks.

And while yes, dodging attacks faster than you is totally possible in fiction and in real life, there's some problems with this feats:

1- The scan don't exactly say how she was dodging all his attacks. Saying that it was with "Intuiton and talent" is vague as hell. It don't say if as with Analytical Prediction or she was aim dodging his attacks (Impossible, because they are in close range). Don't elaboratte if was with Instictive Action or any other form of perception manipulation that she have. Is just "Talent and Intuiton".

2- Now this is the reason i put speed on the tittle.
So in this feat, Ram -a average human in stats according with the scan- as dodging the much faster attacks by Garfiel. How fast is Garfiel currently? His supersonic...
So Ram here with average stats, as dodging the Supersonic attacks for Garfiel, in close combat.
Garfiel is atleast 130x more faster than her, and she was still dodging all his attacks with vague "Talent and Intuiton" and in close comb- do i really need to explain how mathecally impossible this is? She should't be able to dodge countless attack from him, because there's no room for her doing so, she got a demaged kneecap, and even saying with was Predicting him, using Instict or boosting her Perception, her body still shouldn't able to move, because of the enormous speed difference.

I think that's it, as the counter arguments comes, i gonna adress them and put on the OP.

The page that gonna get changed if this get trought are:

Reid
Reinhard
Ram

Votes:
Makes sense yeah: Passersby, CloverDragon03, MeiouHades
Andytrenom, DarkDragonMedeus
No, lmao:
Neutral:

Continued for this, more or less:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/re-zero-skill-evaluation-part-2.155254/post-5871340

 

[Fezzih_007]

I know the Re:ZERO supporters are kinda tired of discussing this, so please don't repeat arguments.
Continued for this:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/re-zero-skill-evaluation-part-2.155254/post-5871340

 

[Passersby]

satella is about to murder you i call already tell

anyways, how well was she faring in this fight before running out of mana?

if she wasn't curb stomping him with her talent and intuition i call bs

if not just upgrade her reaction speed without mana enhancement to about supersonic or lower and this is done

 

[Greatsage13th]

this is essentially a Sasaki Kojiro vs Poseidon situation.

 

[Zabazab]

Bringing up the Ram feat again, why can I smell copper.

anyways, how well was she faring in this fight before running out of mana?

if she wasn't curb stomping him with her talent and intuition i call bs

He was getting his ass kicked. She could've beat him "with half her strength".

if not just upgrade her reaction speed without mana enhancement to about supersonic or lower and this is done

I really, really, really don't want to scale mana-drained Ram to god-damn Garfiel Tinsel. It'd pretty much **** over the logic of both the scaling and the Flow Method system of physical enhancement.

I still just think this was just Ram using her a-precog or something to predict and dodge Garf, it's not like she kept up in cqc, she merely used her intuition to figure what the mindless Beast Garf would do and avoided accordingly, in order to disengage from combat.

 

[Passersby]

I really, really, really don't want to scale mana-drained Ram to god-damn Garfiel Tinsel. It'd pretty much ***** over the logic of both the scaling and the Flow Method system of physical enhancement.

..well then, understandable

I still just think this was just Ram using her a-precog or something to predict and dodge Garf, it's not like she kept up in cqc, she merely used her intuition to figure what the mindless Beast Garf would do and avoided accordingly.

him being a mindless beast somewhat helps your argument, but the fact that he can move 1,8 meters as soon as she moves a cm really doesn't, dodging multple blows from someone who is 180 times faster than you in close quarter combat is physically impossible to do no matter how stupid he is, this isn't a matter of skill nor intuition nor precog but a pure stat difference that's literally unbridgeable

i will refrain from voting for now tho

 

[Fezzih_007]

anyways, how well was she faring in this fight before running out of mana?

if she wasn't curb stomping him with her talent and intuition i call bs

She was curb stomping him, because of the AP difference. She lands a bunch of attack on him, but can't keep up because of her little stamina issue.

if not just upgrade her reaction speed without mana enhancement to about supersonic or lower and this is done

That don't work, because there's a bunch of inconsistance with the scalling. This feat is pretty much a outiler.

this is essentially a Sasaki Kojiro vs Poseidon situation.

Din't Kojiro got faster in that battle in like 3 seconds after Poseidon start speedblitz him trought? I don't think is the same here.

Bringing up the Ram feat again, why can I smell copper.

Not sure, because i just get gold on this.

I still just think this was just Ram using her a-precog or something to predict and dodge Garf, it's not like she kept up in cqc, she merely used her intuition to figure what the mindless Beast Garf would do and avoided accordingly.

That's totally possibly, the only problem is the Speed difference.
And the fact that the scan is super vague to say she was doing exactly that in close combat.

 

[Zabazab]

Intuition and Talent have been the explanation for a wide number of combat feats in the verse.

Elsa could target vitals with her projectiles despite the targets being tens of meters away and herself having her senses sealed by Shamak, which was explained by Frederica as being due to her intuition. In the same moment she dodges Ram's attack that blew up the whole room Elsa was in, yet she didn't get hit by it, while still having her senses sealed.

Reid's intuition was great enough to just figure out that Subaru was taking on Ram's burdens via an invisible, intangible connection between their souls, and then slashed it.

Reinhard's intuition let him figure out he was surrounded by Regulus' invisible spacially-distorted dura neg air attacks, and even let him figure out when Regulus made himself untouchable despite the lack of cues. According to WoG, things like guesses usually always come up in his favour because "he knows the right answer".

Something like dodging an attack with such immense AoE while you can't see, hear, etc, sounds pretty impossible too, but intuition just goes crazy. It's just a skill/battle iq thing, or maybe an analytical prediction thing, but really it's a supernaturally accurate guess.

Additionally, not only has Garfiel just had his ass kicked by Ram, he's also in Beast form which both drops his IQ down to animalistic, and makes his body cumbersome as he's described as moving awkwardly in CQC as his size and body shape work against him. Ram outright states they could only handle Garf in Beast form as base Garf is far too skilled of a warrior to be read through- reading through his movements as a Beast was childs play.

 

[Passersby]

Something like dodging an attack with such immense AoE while you can't see, hear, etc, sounds pretty impossible too, but intuition just goes crazy. It's just a skill/battle iq thing, or maybe an analytical prediction thing, but really it's a supernaturally accurate guess.

all those feats are not physically impossible to do, like this one for example^,that's a feat that can be done via giving the character the supernatural element of extrodinary preception and good skills, but really none of your examples address the main point, ram's stats are still too low and no matter how accurate her guesses are how skilled she is how smart she is and how good her precog is, fact still stays she can never dodge multiple attacks from someone whose attacks move 1,8 meters as soon as she moves a cm in close quarter combat, that gap in speed is not brigeable in any way shape or form

this really isn't helping your case

 

[Zabazab]

Barely dodging while retreating from combat is absolutely possible btw, adding together how cumbersome, innacurate, and awkward Garf would be trying to hit a small target like Ram, with his long limbs and her weaving in close quarters, right after getting his head smashed around.

Like maybe the anime doesn't show it well, but at this point Garfiel's beast form is genuinely useless against someone competent in physical combat, it's only good for dealing a powerful blow.

He felt stupid now for having doubted Ram’s pre-battle remarks. Her statements about purposely getting Garfiel to transform now held definite credibility.

As a beast, the power of the transformed Garfiel is overwhelming, but its advantage lay in situations where he’s fighting multiple opponents. His very mass is a weapon in itself, and even against single individuals, there was no reason he should lose.

But, when his opponent is someone with inhuman combat abilities, it’s a different story. His cumbersome body becomes a target, his powerful, tree-felling claws are fraught with openings, and his devastating strength leaves him clumsy and unbalanced, unable to shift between attack and defense.

Calmly analyzing the situation would make all of this become clear.

...

It wasn’t as if any of Garfiel’s attacks had hit her. Against those thoughtless, wide-open swings, it would actually be harder to try to get hit.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Intuition and Talent have been the explanation for a wide number of combat feats in the verse.

Zabazab, who exactly denied that? Like, what's your point exactly?

Yeah, intuiton as been losely used in the series to explain some skill feats, my problem with this one, is that It don't exactly stated how she was able to dodge with such speed diference, using only "Talent and intuiton".
Like, It don't say she was aim-dodging, predicting him, using her clayvorance, dodging on instincts or using her perceptation boost.

Additionally, not only has Garfiel just had his ass kicked by Ram, he's also in Beast form which both drops his IQ down to animalistic, and makes his body cumbersome as he's described as moving awkwardly in CQC as his size and body shape work against him. Ram outright states they could only handle Garf in Beast form as base Garf is far too skilled of a warrior to be read through- reading through his movements as a Beast was childs play.

It really don't matter how bad Garfiel Tiger form is normally, because unless he is porpusely missing (Which he is not) she still should't be able to dodge any of the attacks because of how slow she is compared to him.

Barely dodging while retreating from combat is absolutely possible btw,

That is

adding together how cumbersome, innacurate, and awkward Garf would be trying to hit a small target like Ram, with his long limbs and her weaving in close quarters,

Speed diference, this don't matter at all.
basically dodging, yeah.

right after getting his head smashed around.

Garfiel can recover pretty quickly for this kinda of thing.

Like maybe the anime doesn't show it well, but at this point Garfiel's beast form is genuinely useless against someone competent in physical combat, it's only good for dealing a powerful blow.

Again, speed difference. Even then, this scan don't really mean much, because It was refering to Ram who as equal in speed with him. (Slight faster actually).


I have to sleep now, good Night.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh brother…

 

[CloverDragon03]

Dodging attacks over 100x faster than you through "pure skill" or something of the sort will always be BS in my eyes

Agree

 

[Zabazab]

It really don't matter how bad Garfiel Tiger form is normally, because unless he is porpusely missing (Which he is not) she still should't be able to dodge any of the attacks because of how slow she is compared to him.

Speed diference, this don't matter at all.
basically dodging, yeah.

Ok this genuinely baffles me.

Saying the difference in ability is nullified by the speed is really ridiculous when in the novel itself, it states that Garfiel's massive physicals are, in fact, nullified by the difference in ability.

This is the entire reason they can even fight Garfiel in the first place! His combat prowess in Beast form is so laughably bad that it's harder to try and get hit by him. Only non-combatants can be threatened by Beast Garf.

Actually, there were 3 things that had to fall into place for this fight:
First, Garfiel's sense of smell had to be neutralized with potent pollen, in order to screw with his fighting abilities.
Second, he needed to get pissed off so he wouldn't logically act.
Third, he had to Beastify in order to destroy his own reasoning abilities and make his body awkward.

The entire issue being raised- that the difference between Ram and Garfiel's stats are too great for her intuition and talent to matter- is completely shut down by the text stating the opposite. Beast Garfiel is genuinely just an idiot. That's it. The combination of Garfiel's idiocy and Ram's godlike talent for combat. Extreme aimdodging, one might say (not that Garfiel was actually bothering to aim).

And like... it's not as if she was going toe-to-toe with Garfiel without using the Flow Method. She was blitzing Garfiel seconds ago, and then when she lost her enhancement she aimdodged some swings while retreating, as she no longer stood a chance in the fight. The feat wouldn't actually make her capable of fighting someone that much faster, it just shows her mid-combat analytical game is good.

"It wasn’t as if any of Garfiel’s attacks had hit her. Against those thoughtless, wide-open swings, it would actually be harder to try to get hit."

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh brother…

Wow Gold supporter, that's cool. I wish i have to money to give this wiki.

Is as bound to happen, we can't deny the inevitable.

 

[MeiouHades]

Ram ramming a ram in a ram carrying a ram. Sorry, I agree.

 

[Passersby]

Ok this genuinely baffles me.

i am as baffled, but there are circusmtances here that i would like you to make clear before i give a judgement


1 was garf able to sens her in any way shape or form

2 was garf trying to attack her, as in he was not just mindlessly attacking but was aiming for her while he was doing so

3 was she next to him while he was trying to attack her


depending on the answer this feat might stay, because you really don't visualize how great a 180 times speed difference is

 

[Fezzih_007]

1 was garf able to sens her in any way shape or form

Yes, while he did became animalistic, he still can dircene his enemies while in that form. He just lose his reasonings.

2 was garf trying to attack her, as in he was not just mindlessly attacking but was aiming for her while he was doing so

Yes, he was directly trying to harm Ram, otherwise, the Scan would say the he was not.

3 was she next to him while he was trying to attack her

Yes, they currently enganging in close combat during this scene.

 

[Passersby]

Yes, while he did became animalistic, he still can dircene his enemies while in that form. He just lose his reasonings.

Yes, he was directly trying to harm Ram, otherwise, the Scan would say the he was not.


Yes, they currently enganging in close combat during this scene.

aight then, yeet this feat away and kill it with fire


i literally cannot stress out how mathematically impossible it is to dodge an attack that moves 180 times faster than you do in CQC, it's bs

 

[Zabazab]

i am as baffled, but there are circusmtances here that i would like you to make clear before i give a judgement


1 was garf able to sens her in any way shape or form

2 was garf trying to attack her, as in he was not just mindlessly attacking but was aiming for her while he was doing so

3 was she next to him while he was trying to attack her


depending on the answer this feat might stay, because you really don't visualize how great a 180 times speed difference is

1) He has eyesight & hearing, but the sense of smell that he relies on in combat is being neutralized by a pollen that just straight-up knocks out most humans who sniff it, and it has an even greater effect on the smell-sensitive Garfiel.

2) He was swinging around aimlessly, basically hoping to hit everyone around him at this point. I cannot stress enough how stupid, lumbering, and inaccurate Garfiel is, combined with Ram being stated to easily see through all of his movements. "Thoughtless swings that'd be harder to try to get hit by."

3) She was essentially touching his chest, which when you look at Beast Garf's shape and realize how big he is while looking at how small Ram is, it makes sense why he'd struggle to hit someone in that position: again, while simply spraying & praying.

i literally cannot stress out how mathematically impossible it is to dodge an attack that moves 180 times faster than you do in CQC, it's bs

It's not impossible because this is pretty much an 'aim'dodging feat. Beast Garfiel is attempting to switch from defense to offense here, which he is stated to struggle with due to his body, thus Ram is merely reading his intent via her intuition and talent for combat in order to dodge before he throws out his attacks.

I find the stripping of context for why Ram can even confront Garfiel in the first place really strange, so much prep was used to make him a beatable opponent.

 

[Passersby]

1) He has eyesight & hearing, but the sense of smell that he relies on in combat is being neutralized by a pollen that just straight-up knocks out most humans who sniff it, and it has an even greater effect on the smell-sensitive Garfiel.

point is he can still sens her, which really doesn't work in your favor

He was swinging around aimlessly, basically hoping to hit everyone around him at this point. I cannot stress enough how stupid, lumbering, and inaccurate Garfiel is, combined with Ram being stated to easily see through all of his movements. "Thoughtless swings that'd be harder to try to get hit by."

him swinging aimlessly somewhat helps, but no, those toughless swings are still 180 times faster than her, i cannot stress out how fast that is

his attacks can move 1,8 meteres as soon as she moves a centimeter her being able to dodge neccessitates subsonic velocities, which according to you, is impossible due to the power system,

She was essentially touching his chest, which when you look at Beast Garf's shape and realize how big he is while looking at how small Ram is, it makes sense why he'd struggle to hit someone in that position: again, while simply spraying & praying.

...if she was touching his chest, why won't he just hit his chest, it doesn't make sens to struggle unless he physically cannot reach there with his attacks

and as i said, no matter how talented skilled or smart you are, you can never dodge attacks that move 1,8 meters as soon as you move a cm, are you even visualizing this?
as soon as ram moves a centimeter the attack would have moved 1,8 meters that is impossible to dodge with normal human speed no matter how much the attacker was spraying and praying

It's not impossible because this is pretty much an 'aim'dodging feat. Beast Garfiel is attempting to switch from defense to offense here, which he is stated to struggle with due to his body, thus Ram is merely reading his intent via her intuition and talent for combat in order to dodge before he throws out his attacks.

I find the stripping of context for why Ram can even confront Garfiel in the first place really strange, so much prep was used to make him a beatable opponent.

aim dodging helps agaisnt opponents who are about 4 or 5 times faster, not 180 times faster, i would like to remind you of "he moves 1,8 meters as soon as ram moves a cm" thing that i said, think hard about it and really see if dodgin any attack moving at that speed is possible

no matter the preperation, as long as the opponent can sens you and is aiming to attack you, and is 180 times faster than you are even seeing any of the attacks is pipe dream no mentioning of even dodging them, that is still physically impossible

 

[Fezzih_007]

1) He has eyesight & hearing, but the sense of smell that he relies on in combat is being neutralized by a pollen that just straight-up knocks out most humans who sniff it, and it has an even greater effect on the smell-sensitive Garfiel.

By that point, Garfiel already got rid of the pollen.

2) He was swinging around aimlessly, basically hoping to hit everyone around him at this point. I cannot stress enough how stupid, lumbering, and inaccurate Garfiel is, combined with Ram being stated to easily see through all of his movements. "Thoughtless swings that'd be harder to try to get hit by."

Where did you get this scans? Because i can't find on the LN any of this quotes. If you using the Webnovel, that being Non-Canon, your point still don't work.

3) She was essentially touching his chest, which when you look at Beast Garf's shape and realize how big he is while looking at how small Ram is, it makes sense why he'd struggle to hit someone in that position: again, while simply spraying & praying.

Speed diference.

It's not impossible because this is pretty much an 'aim'dodging feat.

1- The Scan don't say she was doing that
2- You can't aim-dodging a attack 180x faster than you in close combat

 

[Zabazab]

By that point, Garfiel already got rid of the pollen.

Him scratching his nose and telling Otto "It's over" (i.e, he is beaten) does not imply the pollen is gone.

“Even a soft and flimsy meat shield is better than nothing, so snap out of it. His sense of smell, is it disabled?”

“I’ll pretend I didn’t hear that first part, but, yeah, it is. Makoil pollen is an extremely powerful animal repellent, even humans pass out if they smell it from up close.”

“And even more so for Garfiel, with his nose that is many times more sensitive. Then that’s one of the benefits of his beast-form nullified. The timing and the damage dealt to him before his transformation… is all going according to plan.”

Where did you get this scans? Because i can't find on the LN any of this quotes. If you using the Webnovel, that being Non-Canon, your point still don't work.

It isn't non-canon, it's secondary canon.

Speed diference.

Subaru has aim-dodged FTL attacks. Emilia aim-dodged a FTL attack. Beast Garfiel is outright stated to be easy to read, awkward in movement, and struggling to change between defense and offense. His sense of smell has been crushed, he experienced pre-battle and in-battle damage that was extremely severe. You are utterly tunnel-visioned on his physical stats without looking at the broader context.

1- The Scan don't say she was doing that

It says she used her combat intuition and talent, which includes everything from precog to IR to IA. Pretending that she wasn't using these basic things is intentionally ignorant.

2- You can't aim-dodging a attack 180x faster than you in close combat

You can when the opponent is very literally not even aiming, he's just swinging wildly.

 

[Zabazab]

When it's directly known that if Beast Garfiel wasn't being hindered by everything Otto did, she couldn't have faced him, that's telling the reader than these hinderances were in fact enough to neutralize the difference in stats.

Denying that this is enough to do so is genuinely just headcanon.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i am not even gonna lie, this Ram debate has been overdone to death. this is the 3rd thread that has been made and I am tired of this already. FEZZIH STOP REPEATING STUFF, its annoying as hell.
i am gonna add that "talent and intuition" here implies the numbers of AP, and IA she already has plus her potentially utilizing Clairvoyance to maybe a minor extent. She could have done this via a multiple methods or even a combination of every single method she has, it just shows her capabiltiy in terms of skill. She can no diff an opponent twice as strong as her with barely any difficulty due to skill. When you consider this it makes sense.
Also dont even get me started on those people mentioning how it would be physically impossible and what not. First of all, this is goddam fiction. Logic goes to die here. Secondly there are characters like Cid Kagenou who can canonically predict the entire ******* fight before the battle even starts. This is mild stuff compared to that

For these reasons and for those that have been said above
HARD Disagree FRA

 

[Fezzih_007]

Him scratching his nose and telling Otto "It's over" (i.e, he is beaten) does not imply the pollen is gone.

Is also because he talking in past sense. He also said his eyes and hearing are not working before because of the bugs, and then he said It was over. He got rid off the things rendering his eyes and hearing, but not his nose, even trought he said all the things that are making a problem for him as over.

Scan

Web novel only, which-

It isn't non-canon, it's secondary canon.

-Is condradicted in the LN, since this scenes don't exist there. Since this scene is not on the Light Novel, the main Canon Will take predence.
Like, the anime is also secondary Canon, and we still take the LN over the anime.

Subaru has aim-dodged FTL attacks. Emilia aim-dodged a FTL attack.

Are all this attacks being perfomed in close combat? Because the Emilia one she have way more time to dodge.

Beast Garfiel is outright stated to be easy to read, awkward in movement, and struggling to change between defense and offense. His sense of smell has been crushed

In the Webnovel.

he experienced pre-battle and in-battle damage that was extremely severe.

Garfiel can heal himself.

You are utterly tunnel-visioned on his physical stats without looking at the broader context.

That is not a thing in the LN.

It says she used her combat intuition and talent, which includes everything from precog to IR to IA. Pretending that she wasn't using these basic things is intentionally ignorant.

Not really, when the thing she dodging should just speed blitz her in close combat, and the reasoning don't mention If she was using instincts.
The speed Gap is too big.

You can when the opponent is very literally not even aiming, he's just swinging wildly.

His not, no. The LN have a bunch of passagem of him able to see Ram, and runnig straight to her to do attacks. All this are just a weakness to WB Garfiel. In fact, the only weakennes that beast Garfiel have mentioned would be the fact the difference in size between that let Ram reaches weak spots.

When it's directly known that if Beast Garfiel wasn't being hindered by everything Otto did, she couldn't have faced him

In the Webnovel, yeah. But this hindrance are not the case to LN Garf

that's telling the reader than these hinderances were in fact enough to neutralize the difference in stats.

I can agree with the fact that If the Webnovel could be used to defend this feat, that just make the feat look even more bad. The fact that she can dodge Garf attacks, him being so ******* bad whould still downgrade this feat. Like:
"Ram can dodge faster attacks than her, but only If the enemy is stupid, gangly, can't aim and his sense If smell is being destroyed"
Wow, Ram is really a prodigy by doing all that

Really, If what you said could be applied, i still would downgrade this feat. Yeah no, i just prefer to burn this feat to the ground, instead of making this thing look even worse.

i am not even gonna lie, this Ram debate has been overdone to death. this is the 3rd thread that has been made and I am tired of this already. FEZZIH STOP REPEATING STUFF, its annoying as hell.

dont care + didnt ask + cry about it + stay mad + get real + L + mald seethe cope harder + h0es mad + skill issue + ratio
Sorry, but this feat don't make any sense, i not gonna stand still. even one of the mods Go back to say that he din't agree that Ram feat as Analytical prediction.
Also, you complaining about me repeating stuff, but you gonna do the same now.

i am gonna add that "talent and intuition" here probably implies the numbers of AP, and IA she already has plus her potentially utilizing Clairvoyance to maybe a minor extent.

If she was using any of that, the scan would say.

She could have done this via a multiple methods or even a combination of every single method she has, it just shows her capabiltiy in terms of skill.

Unfortunelly, this scan just say she used talent and intuiton to dodge a 180x speed gap while in close combat. Like, yeah she could multiple methods to do dodge his attacks, but the Scan is so vague that saying she used any of this methods is Basically Headcanon.

She can no diff an opponent twice as strong as her with barely any difficulty due to skill. When you consider this it makes sense.

Before running out mana, yeah. Not after that, when Garf is 180x more faster than her.

Also dont even get me started on those people mentioning how it would be physically impossible and what not. First of all, this is goddam fiction. Logic goes to die here.

Ok, but this wiki straight up don't accepted a bunch of feats like that, even in fiction.
Pis and outlier.

Secondly there are characters like Cid Kagenou who can canonically predict the entire ***** fight before the battle even starts.

That's totally possible If he smart enough (like me, predicting what arguments you would used in this thread) or using a type of Power. Not this Ram feat trought.

For these reasons and for those that have been said above
HARD Disagree FRA

I should probally count the votes when i Go to my computer.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I know the Re:ZERO supporters are kinda tired of discussing this, so please don't repeat arguments.

I should put this in a huge font and Paint Red. I really don't know why anyone would actually hear me out, i was really hopefull.
Next someone does so, i gonna add this ability on Reinhard profile.

Divine Protection

This page is about the various powers that are assigned to select people at birth, known as Divine Protections. For Blessings, a term used in Gusteko for spirits bestowed to Temple Knights by the Holy King, see Terminology. Divine Protections (加護 Kago) are various powers that may be given to...

rezero.fandom.com

 

[Passersby]

First of all, this is goddam fiction. Logic goes to die here

people seem to like using these arguments a lot

to properly explain why the argument anything goes in fiction is wrong

• fictional setting

A setting (or backdrop) is the time and geographic location within a narrative, either non-fiction or fiction. It is a literary element. The setting initiates the main backdrop and mood for a story. The setting can be referred to as story world or milieu to include a context (especially society) beyond the immediate surroundings of the story. Elements of setting may include culture, historical period, geography, and hour. Along with the plot, character, theme, and style, setting is considered one of the fundamental components of fiction."(wiki setting)

• world building

In this case/for the sake of our argument, we are talking about the part of worldbuilding related to the fictional universe's physics.

"Perhaps the most basic consideration of worldbuilding is to what degree a fictional world will be based on real-world physics compared to magic. While magic is a more common element of fantasy settings, science fiction worlds can contain magic or technological equivalents of it. For example, the Biotics in the science fiction video game series Mass Effect have abilities, described scientifically in-game, which mirror those of mages in fantasy games. In the science fiction novel Midnight at the Well of Souls, magic exists, but is explained scientifically.

-wiki definition

Worldbuilding is the process of constructing an imaginary world associated with a fictional universe, developing an imaginary setting with coherent qualities is a a key aspect when writing a story and it often involves the creation of geography, a backstory, power system, species, inhabitants, technology history ect

world building is a fascinating aspect in literature since as long as you're good enough it can have no limits and it can encompass quite the diverse settings the world could encompass different planets spanning vast distances of space multiverses kingdomes or even be limited in scope to a single small village, the bigger and the world the more mysteries behind it and the deeper it's lore is the better the world building is, but that's beside the point

some fictional worlds modify the real-world laws of physics; faster-than-light travel is a common factor in much science fiction. Worldbuilding may combine physics and magic, such as in the Dark Tower series and the Star Wars franchise. One subgenre of science fiction, mundane science fiction, calls for writers to depict only scientifically plausible technology; as such, fictional faster-than-light travel is not depicted in these works.

-wiki defintion

there is also what we called inferred world building where authors allow the readers to figure out the details of the fictional world which contains the fictional media they're consuming

what people ignore is this

Inferred worldbuilding is when the author provides enough detail about the various parts of a setting that readers can extrapolate on what is written to come to their own conclusions regarding specific details that weren't provided.

this goes with everything, anime, manga, VN; movies etc. The author puts various hints and detailes in the story and the reader has to put together the puzzle pieces if some are missin, this is why theories exist and they keep the readers interested curious in the fictional story they're reading, that's why every reason should be analyzed before saying something is inconsistent an outlier, complete utter nonsens etc

let's set out the definition of a fictonal universe first

• fictional universe

A fictional universe, or fictional world, is a self-consistent setting with events, and often other elements, that differ from the real world. It may also be called an imagined, constructed, or fictional realm (or world). Fictional universes may appear in novels, comics, films, television shows, video games, and other creative works. Something taking place in fictional setting doesn't automatically imply the limit of physics for that specific universe. Fiction just means anything created by the author.

Within this fictional universe the characters/inhavitant perform actions that we called feats, a term used whenever a character performs an action that gives us information about his stats, LS AP speed INT range skills etc

keeping that in mind, the author has to create new characters, abilities ,settings or rules in the universe first before saying anything about/ giving any character in his fictionam story any abilities, He cant just make stuff up for established characters, for example, he can't suddenly say "rem had the ability to pause time for 60 minutes ever since VOL1 and she could have used it whenever she wanted" , that would just be ignored as utter nonsens

creator statements dont always supersede their work as It laregely depends on if the statement makes sense for that universe, in which case the fictional work should be checked for accuracy and for how consistent it is with the statement, the basis of how matter behaves in the re: zero world is the same as in our universe through the world building provided, so what's physcaly impossible here is also physically impossible there unless there is something in the fictional universe in re zero to prove otherwise, such as dodging attacks 180 times faster than you are....like really, just give out any explanation other than "it's fiction, everything goes", use feats abilites context power system, anything




basically don't use the "it's fiction, everything goes" argument, it's bs especially considering we use reality to explain fiction, we use physics, measurements , math etc to properly index characters which is unavoidable because that's the foundation for the concept of worldbuilding and is what determines the way matter behaves in that ficntional uni

This is why we always use real-life calculations and observations no matter how many times a person says, "she can dodge a heavy rain storm because it's fiction" or "she can dodge attacks septillion times faster than her with pure skill because it's fiction" it won't add anything to your point, matter in a fictional world as well as it's laws and physics is the same at the basic level as matter in our world. Some of the fictional aspects that authors add in their fictional universe such as KI chakra magic mana etc just has different properties which allow for the supernatural to happen thus most of the same calcs and observations are applied depending on the properties of these supernatural properties

the feat shown here isn't supported by any supernatural property, it's as basic as it gets, it's character A who is appearently dodging character B who is 180 times faster than he is because talent and intuition teehee


that is BS and should be ignored till proven otherwise lmao, yeet it away and kill it with fire

 

[CloverDragon03]

"It's fiction." Yeah and it still needs to make some semblance of sense. All our ratings, abilities, and such make some semblance of sense within the context of their settings. Dodging attacks over 100x faster than you "through pure skill" is not one such thing.

It'd be one thing if this was some form of Precog or whatever, that'd be fine, but it's apparently just through "talent and intuition."

 

[Zabazab]

Is also because he talking in past sense. He also said his eyes and hearing are not working before because of the bugs, and then he said It was over. He got rid off the things rendering his eyes and hearing, but not his nose, even trought he said all the things that are making a problem for him as over.

You've simply misinterpreted Garfiel's words. He is saying that the fight- or rather Otto's struggling- is over. Not the effects of the pollen.

Web novel only, which-
-Is condradicted in the LN, since this scenes don't exist there. Since this scene is not on the Light Novel, the main Canon Will take predence.
Like, the anime is also secondary Canon, and we still take the LN over the anime.

If you post a scan from the LN which states Beast Garfiel is accurate and skillful in combat, I'll concede. Otherwise it is not contradicted.

Are all this attacks being perfomed in close combat? Because the Emilia one she have way more time to dodge.

A FTL attack from a hundred meters away will hit you before a Mach 2 attack from a centimeter away. Beast Garfiel's attacks are incredibly linear due to him tossing his whole body behind them.

Garfiel can heal himself.

Beast Garf cannot use magic. His Divine Blessing helps heal minor wounds sure, but especially at this point in the story it's more useful for restoring stamina.

The LN have a bunch of passagem of him able to see Ram, and runnig straight to her to do attacks. All this are just a weakness to WB Garfiel.

Yes he runs at the people he's trying to kill, but his actual accuracy in CQC is pathetically awful. Arguing that Beast Garfiel is actually a competent fighter spits in the face of the entire plan Ram and Otto cooked to make him transform so they could actually fight him.

"Ram can dodge faster attacks than her, but only If the enemy is stupid, gangly, can't aim and his sense If smell is being destroyed"

This is why it's a battle iq feat and not a statistical feat. She still needed godlike skill to read such a physically overwhelming opponent like Garfiel.

Base Garfiel would've easily hit Ram in this instance, since he is an incredibly competent fighter.

Next someone does so, i gonna add this ability on Reinhard profile.

When Riot in Flanders gets a full TL I'll add Blessed to Kan's profile. I will oppose listing the Blessing on Reinhard's profile because he's just a sweet lil' baby boy.

It'd be one thing if this was some form of Precog or whatever, that'd be fine, but it's apparently just through "talent and intuition."

Every single decent fighter in the verse has precog, and Beast Garf is explicitly noted as easily seen through.

There is no mention of precog or aim dodging for a number of feats that are obviously aim-dodging, like Emilia's instincts getting a bad feeling and pushing Sylphy out of the way as Regulus's FTL attack erases the space they were just in.

 

[Passersby]

It'd be one thing if this was some form of Precog or whatever, that'd be fine

no it won't, knowing an attack will be coming and dodging it are 2 compeletely different things

ram in this case is fighting in CQC, dodging it is impossible

 

[CloverDragon03]

no it won't, knowing an attack will be coming and dodging it are 2 compeletely different things

ram in this case is fighting in CQC, dodging it is impossible

I suppose that's true, yeah. If it's CQC then you'd be super hard pressed to dodge an attack over 100x faster than you even with Precog

 

[Fezzih_007]

You've simply misinterpreted Garfiel's words. He is saying that the fight- or rather Otto's struggling- is over. Not the effects of the pollen.

Not really, he could be refering to both things too.
He said all this things that are a problem for him, following with "It was rough" meaning in a past sense, It would imply he got rid of the effects.
And considering there's no telling in the Light Novel of him having problems attacking due to polem, i don't really put my faith on the whole pólen thing.
He resolved the problem of his eyes and hearing, but not his nose?

If you post a scan from the LN which states Beast Garfiel is accurate and skillful in combat, I'll concede. Otherwise it is not contradicted.

It is, yes. If the thing have no mention on the original material, we can't exactly use this to prove anything. The condraction, would be the fact of how much different the scenes compared to each other.
I not gonna use Secondary canon over the main Canon. The LN make zero reference of the fact that Garfiel beast is bad, or the pólen hindracing him.

A FTL attack from a hundred meters away will hit you before a Mach 2 attack from a centimeter away.

The fact that both feats should be outliers, already makes me want to say nothing more, but...

As i said, Emilia have way more to time to actually dodge Regulus attack, since she explicty sim dodging.
And she acted before the attacks as even fired.

Beast Garfiel's attacks are incredibly linear due to him tossing his whole body behind them.

Yeah, but his attacks are also 180x more faster than Ram too.

Beast Garf cannot use magic

You can change the heal there to recover, i think It makes more sense.

Yes he runs at the people he's trying to kill, but his actual accuracy in CQC is pathetically awful. Arguing that Beast Garfiel is actually a competent fighter spits in the face of the entire plan Ram and Otto cooked to make him transform so they could actually fight him.

Webnovel only

This is why it's a battle iq feat and not a statistical feat.

Is also because Ram currently din't have any Magic to amp herself to dodge his attacks, so saiying It was a Statistic feats don't make any sense, i agree.

She still needed godlike skill to read such a physically overwhelming opponent like Garfiel.

No amount of skill can grant her the ability to dodge a 180x speed difference in close combat.

Base Garfiel would've easily hit Ram in this instance, since he is an incredibly competent fighter.

But Ram is more trought.

When Riot in Flanders gets a full TL I'll add Blessed to Kan's profile. I will oppose listing the Blessing on Reinhard's profile because he's just a sweet lil' baby boy.

You never know man, imagine If Teppei lauchs a Harem If, but all the boys are in the Subaru, and we have a sex scene with Reinhard.

Every single decent fighter in the verse has precog, and Beast Garf is explicitly noted as easily seen through.

180x speed.

There is no mention of precog or aim dodging for a number of feats that are obviously aim-dodging, like Emilia's instincts getting a bad feeling and pushing Sylphy out of the way as Regulus's FTL attack erases the space they were just in.

But Is not Just a "bad feeling" trought, she actually see Regulus smirking ar her, and lifting his hand.
Emília Just put 2+2 togheter and as like, "Oh, i don't like that at all", só we can confidently say she did aim-dodging.

This Ram feat don't have the privilege.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Din't Kojiro got faster in that battle in like 3 seconds after Poseidon start speedblitz him trought? I don't think is the same here.

He practically walked through a danmaku worth of attacks merely by prediction in the millions despite them being far faster than himself.

 

[Robo432343]

this isnt a MINOR speed downgrade tf

 

[Zabazab]

Not really, he could be refering to both things too.

I'm not going to argue with you about the pollen stuff when it's just your misunderstanding of Garfiel's words. He was being hindered by the pollen, that's just the fact of the matter.

It is, yes. If the thing have no mention on the original material, we can't exactly use this to prove anything. The condraction, would be the fact of how much different the scenes compared to each other.
I not gonna use Secondary canon over the main Canon. The LN make zero reference of the fact that Garfiel beast is bad, or the pólen hindracing him.

The scenes are almost identical, with just Ram getting overwhelmed by her Oni instincts being cut.

In both versions, Ram only agrees to help if Otto hinders Garf with damage, stopping his nose, and getting him to transform. Why on earth would Ram EVER want Garfiel to transform if his skill wasn't butchered by it? We already know that his power becomes far greater in Beast Form. This is the entire point of the fight. Beast Garf is an idiot that they can defeat, while base Garf would destroy them.

If you dislike the incredibly reasonable use of the WN as secondary canon to fill in some of the gaps of the LN, make a CRT about that and try to get all of the WN content removed from the profiles, otherwise you just gotta accept that the WN plays a very important role for indexing Re:Zero.

The fact that both feats should be outliers, already makes me want to say nothing more, but...

As i said, Emilia have way more to time to actually dodge Regulus attack, since she explicty sim dodging.
And she acted before the attacks as even fired.

Why is Emilia's aimdodging feat- where she saves Sylphy from a FTL attack from a few meters away- "explicitly" aimdodging and Ram's not? Neither actually mention prediction or aim (though Ram's mentions Garfiel is easily seen through, lol). I think both are aimdodging feats, because that's simply what makes sense.

Yeah, but his attacks are also 180x more faster than Ram too.

That literally does not matter when Garfiel can't aim for the life of him, is up against a skillgod like Ram, and is only attacking in straight lines.

But Ram is more trought.

Base Garfiel being less skilled does not mean he can't hit her while she's nerfed to human level. He can actually aim in base, so Ram would've gotten hit. Garfiel is less skilled than say Old Wilhelm, but he can hit him.

But Is not Just a "bad feeling" trought, she actually see Regulus smirking ar her, and lifting his hand.
Emília Just put 2+2 togheter and as like, "Oh, i don't like that at all", só we can confidently say she did aim-dodging.

There's iterally no mention of that? She makes a split-second judgement to pull Sylphy out of the way.

“It is rather I that is deeply sorry. Husband-sama’s words have given me courage. I, too, will immediately set out to help in preparing the venue.”

“Ah, please do.”

Giving her farewell along with a bow, Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four turned away from Regulus.

At the same time, she met Emilia’s eyes and gave a furtive sort of wink. That was, probably, a warning to Emilia about the carelessness of the words she was speaking before she had been cut off.

She must have wanted to point out that Emilia had neglected the danger posed by Regulus. As such things had been communicated, Emilia did not hesitate to make a split-second judgement.

“——Watch out!”

“Eh?”

As Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four was passed by, Emilia tugged hard on her arm. Clutching her tall but light body to her chest, Emilia took a big step backwards.

The space in front of her, where Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four had stood moments before, was caressed by the wind. Opening a long furrow in the cathedral floor, shattering it, and piercing straight through, carving a straight a line of destruction. Without slowing down, the wind hit the large entrance door of the cathedral, turning it to dust, then spread its destruction outwards.

At that instant of overwhelming destructive power, Emilia, who was cuddling with Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four, could not speak. Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four also, having noticed the destruction that had occurred behind her, froze and curled up, making herself smaller.

And, standing at the destruction’s point of origin in a pose, as if he had swung his right arm moments before, was Regulus,

“Sorry, sorry. My hand just slipped—— It’s a relief that nothing happened to you girls.”

 

[Andytrenom]

Only way you are dodging is if there's a delay between the attacks that can be reacted, even if it's fiction dodging with a 130x gap is an incomprehensible situation not just one impossible by real life rules, the "it's fiction" argument really shouldn't apply here

 

[Passersby]

That literally does not matter when Garfiel can't aim for the life of him, is up against a skillgod like Ram, and is only attacking in straight lines.

my friend, if the only reason she was able to dodge is because the opponent is an idiot can't aim only hits in straight lines and it would be harder to actually get hit by him than to get hit i wouldn't call the guy who dodged his attacks a "skill god"

even then that's still iffy, reminder that his attacks move 1,8 meters as soon as she moves a cm, so if she is next to him she is getting hit unless he isn't aiming at her at all and he is just randomly flailing

either way, this isn't a feat to take seriously, yeet it away

“It is rather I that is deeply sorry. Husband-sama’s words have given me courage. I, too, will immediately set out to help in preparing the venue.”

“Ah, please do.”

Giving her farewell along with a bow, Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four turned away from Regulus.

At the same time, she met Emilia’s eyes and gave a furtive sort of wink. That was, probably, a warning to Emilia about the carelessness of the words she was speaking before she had been cut off.

She must have wanted to point out that Emilia had neglected the danger posed by Regulus. As such things had been communicated, Emilia did not hesitate to make a split-second judgement.

“——Watch out!”

“Eh?”

As Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four was passed by, Emilia tugged hard on her arm. Clutching her tall but light body to her chest, Emilia took a big step backwards.

The space in front of her, where Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four had stood moments before, was caressed by the wind. Opening a long furrow in the cathedral floor, shattering it, and piercing straight through, carving a straight a line of destruction. Without slowing down, the wind hit the large entrance door of the cathedral, turning it to dust, then spread its destruction outwards.

At that instant of overwhelming destructive power, Emilia, who was cuddling with Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four, could not speak. Number One-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four also, having noticed the destruction that had occurred behind her, froze and curled up, making herself smaller.

And, standing at the destruction’s point of origin in a pose, as if he had swung his right arm moments before, was Regulus,

“Sorry, sorry. My hand just slipped—— It’s a relief that nothing happened to you girls.”

and this can be explained by emilia getting a bad feeling and pushing her away, unless you bleive she is relativistic- relativistic+ since performing those actions when the FTL attack was in motion necessitates those velocities it seems she did all those actions before the attack even started

 

[Zabazab]

even then that's still iffy, reminder that his attacks move 1,8 meters as soon as she moves a cm

That literally does not matter when Garfiel can't aim for the life of him, is up against a skillgod like Ram, and is only attacking in straight lines.

either way, this isn't a feat to take seriously, yeet it away

It's an analytical feat of being able to see through such a fast opponent. That's why the feat is listed in the intelligence section and not the speed section.

and this can be explained by

This, this phrase right here. Why does it apply in Emilia's case but not Ram's? Both can very easily just be called aim dodging.