Re:Zero AP Question

[RinneItachi]

In an EX side story, Reinhard states that the dragon-claw etch marks on Reid's scabbard were, according to legend, made by Volcanica's claws.

The sheathe of the Dragon Sword is virtually indestructible in-universe as Reinhard himself exclaims, capable of surviving the end of the world, capable of effortlessly enduring the gravitational force of a singularity, and even no-selling DIRECT strikes from Regulus, which due to being removed from time experience no friction, conservation of momentum, etc. and thus possess infinite energy.

Would this not necessitate high-universal attack potency for Volcanica? And if so, Reinhard by extension (since he of course scales to Volcanica's physicals)?

 

[RinneItachi]

I don't feel like this is even a stretch necessarily as Reinhard's physical AP doesn't have many anti-feats and casual swordstrikes from him intended only to defeat fodder (by his standards) like Elsa (while suppressed to not kill everyone around him) still warp and cut through space.

 

[Vietthai96]

The sheathe of the Dragon Sword is virtually indestructible in-universe as Reinhard himself exclaims, capable of surviving the end of the world

This argument is kind of NLF so no

and even no-selling DIRECT strikes from Regulus, which due to being removed from time experience no friction, conservation of momentum

No this is just weird fictional hax, Regulus attack was removed from time thus experience no change, you can't convert this to physical laws with this kind of weird hax

capable of effortlessly enduring the gravitational force of a singularity

This is likely the only possible thing that you could get for High 3-A but again the issues is

1. An insane jump from the verse usual feat, you need something to support this kind of jump like other similar feats or statements. At best you could get a High 3-A stonewall durability that not scale to AP

2. While gravity singularity is indeed High 3-A, it need to be an actual singularity that is 1:1 with our real life physical theories about it

Anyway @Celestial_Pegasus

 

[RinneItachi]

This argument is kind of NLF so no

That's not the point, it's just a supportive evidence stance to emphasize the sword's clearly absurd durability. Not making an NLF.

No this is just weird fictional hax, Regulus attack was removed from time thus experience no change, you can't convert this to physical laws with this kind of weird hax

It's unstoppable via being removed from time, experiencing no gravity, air resistance, or conservation of momentum, while still somehow carrying mass. You actually can convert it to physical laws; this is basically the equivalent of accelerating to the speed of light irl, which is impossible because it would require infinite energy. That doesn't mean it perfectly translates, you are right in that this is a fictional hax ability, that does not mean it is entirely removed from physics, the entire point is that he is breaking physics itself, and from that we can understand applications of its uses.

This is likely the only possible thing that you could get for High 3-A but again the issues is

He also partially tanks it himself, his arm is very badly damaged but stays intact and he ultimately overcomes the force to destroy Al Karum with the sheathed Dragon Sword.

Al Karum is described as not being a black hole, but also it just...kind of is? I think Tappei was a little confused about what black holes actually are when he wrote this because it does fit the definition of a black hole on a basic level, and he even specifies that it could compress a star's mass into a singular point, but adamantly makes it clear that it's just "like" a black hole. You can make your own interpretation, but by all actual metrics, it IS a black hole.

1. An insane jump from the verse usual feat, you need something to support this kind of jump like other similar feats or statements. At best you could get a High 3-A stonewall durability that not scale to AP

I adamantly disagree with this argument.

Reinhard himself doesn't have anti-feats and most of his feats or anti-feats are already in a weakened state, I'm not sure I agree with this notion. Yes, most feats in the verse are unfathomably below this, usually from city-country level for the impressive feats worth mentioning at all. But Reinhard is consistently in a realm completely above said characters. Beings even capable of doing anything to Reinhard are pretty much able to bend space or otherwise effect reality with their casual fighting methods as a side-effect. Puck is able to casually freeze the world by passively generating Mana and could do it in a very short timeframe if he chose to, and he is fodder to Reinhard.

All things considered, it isn't a huge outlier, it's just that Reinhard doesn't really have such feats to support high-uni in a more direct, streamlined way. Hell, you could bring in Reid who can literally cut dimensions, concepts, metaphysical bonds, and destroyed a black hole with a chopstick. Reinhard does NOT scale to this to be clear, Reid is a beast and that ability to cut anything is only his, just saying it because he does have ridiculous AP and Re:Zero characters hitting such tiers of AP is by no means unheard of.

2. While gravity singularity is indeed High 3-A, it need to be an actual singularity that is 1:1 with our real life physical theories about it

It is described as and has similar properties to one.

 

[RinneItachi]

Ah I forgot to include my arguments for Reinhard actually destroying the Re:Zero universe with Reid in this post. There's pretty indisputable evidence for it. I have other things I wanna bring up too. Maybe I should just structure a CRT already.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Idk what the fascination is with High 3-A Re Zero.

The top tiers all have hax, including Volcanica which ignores durability, we don't know the process by which the Dragon Sword was made besides being made by anonymous swordsmith and blessed by the Sword God.

Did Volcanica scratch it before or after it was blessed? How did Volcanica scratch it? If it can tank things which even Reinhard can't, ie black hole, how does Reinhard scale to it?

The singularly Alter created has no proof of being infinite, its not stated to be infinite, light not escaping etc.

Reinhard destroying the world is in the same context of Puck freezing it, which he didn't otherwise Reinhard wouldn't have said anything about Felt being sad, she would be dead, and also if you take the IF stories into account, never reached Kararagi, otherwise Rem and Subaru would be dead there too.


We could also mention Satella and Reinhard taking 7 days to destroy the world, even if nerfed, infinity divided by a sextillion would still be infinity

We could also go down the rabbit hole of return by deaths mechanics possibly being destroying the world and recreating it, which begs the question, shouldn't it be unaffected by rbd? But so far seems it is.

In short, I think the series still has too many mysteries to be making high end interpretations, even what the world is, is still a mystery at this point.

 

[RinneItachi]

Idk what the fascination is with High 3-A Re Zero.

Fascination? I'm just scaling the verse via methods I see as perfectly valid.
I mean, Subaru unironically has sub-relativistic reaction speed on the wiki, I'm kinda surprised this seems like such wank.

The top tiers all have hax, including Volcanica which ignores durability, we don't know the process by which the Dragon Sword was made besides being made by anonymous swordsmith and blessed by the Sword God.

Volcanica is just so absurdly powerful that he can effect space due to his raw power, like Reinhard can, like Cecilus can, forget about Reid. It's not intended to be specialized hax, but rather a showing of what god-tiers can be capable of. Reid's ridiculous ability to cut anything literally comes from his "skill", not a hax ability.

This point actually strengthens my argument, it doesn't necessarily contradict it.

Did Volcanica scratch it before or after it was blessed? How did Volcanica scratch it? If it can tank things which even Reinhard can't, ie black hole, how does Reinhard scale to it?

Presumably yes as Volcanica is known to have interacted with Reid who is, as I recall, the aforementioned Sword God. With his claws, Reinhard blatantly said it in the image above. Reinhard would scale to it via scaling to Volcanica's claws. Reinhard also partially tanked the singularity of Al Karum.

The singularly Alter created has no proof of being infinite, its not stated to be infinite, light not escaping etc.

Okay let me explain something about black holes real quick to clear up misconceptions.
A singularity has infinite gravity by definition. This is simply how mass and density work. The reason why a neutron star, despite being so much smaller than the Earth, would nigh-instantly crush you into atoms if you were suddenly teleported to one (not factoring in heat and such), because its mass is much, MUCH higher than the Earth's, that mass is just compressed into a denser radius.

Gravity is the pull on objects with mass between each other, and the more you compress the mass of an object, the denser it becomes; this density causes the molecules of the object to pull even harder on whatever gets close enough to be effected by their gravity. A singularity is a point in which a mass has become SO compressed, it cannot bear the weight of its own gravity, and collapses into a literal singular point in space, something once thought to be impossible.

It has no surface, no width, no depth, etc., it has no dimensions because it is akin to a dot on a paper. That level of density is so extreme that mathematically speaking, the produced gravity around it is infinite, even light cannot escape the radius of its gravity, or rather, the Event Horizon.

The fact that Al created a singularity, which is made abundantly clear by the narrator multiple times, means he in fact created an infinite density, an infinite density which Reinhard endured (his arm was badly damaged but not totally destroyed) and even destroyed with the Dragon Sword which suffered no damage.

It even is described as bending space, as being so dense that it could pull down a star into, guess what, a singular point (the definition of a singularity, a black hole, i.e. infinite gravity). The other points in this discussion are debatable enough that I understand the contention, but not on this. It objectively is a black hole feat.

Reinhard destroying the world is in the same context of Puck freezing it, which he didn't otherwise Reinhard wouldn't have said anything about Felt being sad, she would be dead, and also if you take the IF stories into account, never reached Kararagi, otherwise Rem and Subaru would be dead there too.

This doesn't change the context of what happened. After he destroyed Puck and recreated the world, it became day time, even though it had just become night time at that point prior to his "battle". We don't know the context of Reinhard saying that, it's possible he can bring people back to life with the Dragon Sword, and it is explicitly stated that he did bring the nearby plant-life back from death, so it's just not a strong argument, and the narrator explicitly exclaims that the world was being entirely destroyed via being frozen over, in addition to Puck corroborating that he can destroy the entire world if he released all of his Mana in Memory Snow, which is blatant foreshadowing for Arc 3. Either way, the notion that the narrator wasn't actually referring to the world it says world like 20 different times, simply because "But Reinhard said" and "In this IF route" is something I heavily, and adamantly disagree with.

Also, depending on which translation you follow, it is also stated that Puck was purged from the universe.

We could also mention Satella and Reinhard taking 7 days to destroy the world, even if nerfed, infinity divided by a sextillion would still be infinity

AP=/=DC? This is powerscaling 101. Tappei has stated that Reinhard would take as long to destroy his world as it would take Godzilla to destroy Eurasia (though this depends on how strong Tappei thinks Godzilla is), that doesn't change that he can cut space and no-diff Garfiel who performed a bare minimum country level feat.

This just isn't an argument.

We could also go down the rabbit hole of return by deaths mechanics possibly being destroying the world and recreating it, which begs the question, shouldn't it be unaffected by rbd? But so far seems it is.

Should what be unaffected? The Dragon Sword? That's entirely based in conjecture. We have no idea what resistances the Dragon Sword has, what happens to it, etc.. It's entirely possible that it just gets carried along and cleanly put onto the new Reinhard's body. We don't know so this is a somewhat moot point.

It's entirely possible that the reason it can be drawn against Subaru is because it knows about his Authority and maybe could even destroy RBD, it's all speculative.

In short, I think the series still has too many mysteries to be making high end interpretations, even what the world is, is still a mystery at this point.

That's also just not a strong argument, I get why you struggle to agree with high-uni, I don't even personally believe Reinhard has high-uni AP, but personal opinions are irrelevant to the facts portrayed. The Dragon Sword and its scabbard can withstand infinite forces (Strikes carrying infinite energy and the infinite forces applied by a singularity), the claws of a dragon etched marks into the scabbard, Reinhard scales to such a feat simply because of who he is. There are exactly 0 direct anti-feats against Reinhard being able to do this, and in fact, there exists exclusively supportive evidence of it throughout the series.

Objectively speaking, we'd need more evidence to debunk the argument than simply...vibes.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Fascination? I'm just scaling the verse via methods I see as perfectly valid.
I mean, Subaru unironically has sub-relativistic reaction speed on the wiki, I'm kinda surprised this seems like such wank.

Sub relativistic speed for now...

Volcanica is just so absurdly powerful that he can effect space due to his raw power, like Reinhard can, like Cecilus can, forget about Reid. It's not intended to be specialized hax, but rather a showing of what god-tiers can be capable of. Reid's ridiculous ability to cut anything literally comes from his "skill", not a hax ability.

This point actually strengthens my argument, it doesn't necessarily contradict it.

Volcanica twists space, making defense irrelevant, this doesn't strengthen your argument, I am saying it has hax which can negate durability, so it doens't need to physically be High 3-A. This is a magical dragon whose breath can end concepts after all.

Presumably yes as Volcanica is known to have interacted with Reid who is, as I recall, the aforementioned Sword God. With his claws, Reinhard blatantly said it in the image above. Reinhard would scale to it via scaling to Volcanica's claws. Reinhard also partially tanked the singularity of Al Karum.

We don't know how the sword was made is the problem here, we don't know the mechanics, was it always "High 3-A", or did it become so after Volcanica clawed it, your making an assumption.

Okay let me explain something about black holes real quick to clear up misconceptions.
A singularity has infinite gravity by definition. This is simply how mass and density work. The reason why a neutron star, despite being so much smaller than the Earth, would nigh-instantly crush you into atoms if you were suddenly teleported to one (not factoring in heat and such), because its mass is much, MUCH higher than the Earth's, that mass is just compressed into a denser radius.

Gravity is the pull on objects with mass between each other, and the more you compress the mass of an object, the denser it becomes; this density causes the molecules of the object to pull even harder on whatever gets close enough to be effected by their gravity. A singularity is a point in which a mass has become SO compressed, it cannot bear the weight of its own gravity, and collapses into a literal singular point in space, something once thought to be impossible.

It has no surface, no width, no depth, etc., it has no dimensions because it is akin to a dot on a paper. That level of density is so extreme that mathematically speaking, the produced gravity around it is infinite, even light cannot escape the radius of its gravity, or rather, the Event Horizon.

The fact that Al created a singularity, which is made abundantly clear by the narrator multiple times, means he in fact created an infinite density, an infinite density which Reinhard endured (his arm was badly damaged but not totally destroyed) and even destroyed with the Dragon Sword which suffered no damage.

It even is described as bending space, as being so dense that it could pull down a star into, guess what, a singular point (the definition of a singularity, a black hole, i.e. infinite gravity). The other points in this discussion are debatable enough that I understand the contention, but not on this. It objectively is a black hole feat.

Just because it's called a "singularity" doesn't make it what the wiki accepts as one, you have to prove it, statements alone usually aren't enough, even if that was accepted, black feats are usually tiered by the size of the black hole, this won't get you to High 3-A.

Stars in Re Zero aren't stars as we know them, just mana btw.

This doesn't change the context of what happened. After he destroyed Puck and recreated the world, it became day time, even though it had just become night time at that point prior to his "battle". We don't know the context of Reinhard saying that, it's possible he can bring people back to life with the Dragon Sword, and it is explicitly stated that he did bring the nearby plant-life back from death, so it's just not a strong argument, and the narrator explicitly exclaims that the world was being entirely destroyed via being frozen over, in addition to Puck corroborating that he can destroy the entire world if he released all of his Mana in Memory Snow, which is blatant foreshadowing for Arc 3. Either way, the notion that the narrator wasn't actually referring to the world it says world like 20 different times, simply because "But Reinhard said" and "In this IF route" is something I heavily, and adamantly disagree with.

Reinhard in arc 6 explicitly says the dead do not move, he won't accept the absurdity of the dead coming back, something of the sort, this doesn't make sense if Reinhard just murders everyone and bring them back to life. Puck can destroy the world, nobody denies it, but it takes time.

AP=/=DC? This is powerscaling 101. Tappei has stated that Reinhard would take as long to destroy his world as it would take Godzilla to destroy Eurasia (though this depends on how strong Tappei thinks Godzilla is), that doesn't change that he can cut space and no-diff Garfiel who performed a bare minimum country level feat.

This comment was mostly a joke.

Should what be unaffected? The Dragon Sword? That's entirely based in conjecture. We have no idea what resistances the Dragon Sword has, what happens to it, etc.. It's entirely possible that it just gets carried along and cleanly put onto the new Reinhard's body. We don't know so this is a somewhat moot point.

Well you are assuming that the sword doesn't get reverted along with everything else, and magically goes back to Reinhard without him noticing, when the simpler explanations is, it was destroyed. There is also the can of worms of Reinhard himself getting destroyed and remade, thus disproving him being able to tank anything world ending, but you could hand wave it off as just his memories being reverted, but simplest explanation makes most sense. Not saying this can't be true, just that it takes a lot of assumptions from current information.

That's also just not a strong argument, I get why you struggle to agree with high-uni, I don't even personally believe Reinhard has high-uni AP, but personal opinions are irrelevant to the facts portrayed. The Dragon Sword and its scabbard can withstand infinite forces (Strikes carrying infinite energy and the infinite forces applied by a singularity), the claws of a dragon etched marks into the scabbard, Reinhard scales to such a feat simply because of who he is. There are exactly 0 direct anti-feats against Reinhard being able to do this, and in fact, there exists exclusively supportive evidence of it throughout the series.

Objectively speaking, we'd need more evidence to debunk the argument than simply...vibes.

Well, you would have to start by proving the singularity is real, and then from that it isn't just High 5-A based on its size, which would be an upgrade btw, but instead goes all the way to High 3-A.

 

[Zabazab]

Ignoring all the contradictions (such as Reinhard having scaling against infinite power, and being incapable of damaging the Dragon Sword), this line of scaling hinges on the engravings on the Dragon Sword truly having been made by Volcanica, which isn't certain.

This is the history passed down, but it's also passed down that Reid is the ancestor of House Astrea, that Shaula is the Sage, and that Volcanica's blood is the Dragon Blood stored in the Royal Castle— three "facts" we know to be false, either muddied by the passage of time or purposefully doctored.

Not to mention the issue that even if Volcanica did make those scratches, we don't know if it was before or after the sheath was made to be indestructible. It could even have been part of the forging process, we really have no idea.

Unrelated, but I do agree the singularity is real. Just being called a "singularity of mass" (by definition, an infinitely dense point in space), which warps space around it, and being an on-the-fly evolution of a spell that manipulates either gravity or mass, is convincing enough for me.

 

[RinneItachi]

Sub relativistic speed for now...

I don't agree with it either.

Volcanica twists space, making defense irrelevant, this doesn't strengthen your argument, I am saying it has hax which can negate durability, so it doens't need to physically be High 3-A. This is a magical dragon whose breath can end concepts after all.

Yes, it's spatial manipulation Volcanica can casually perform through raw power. The same way Reinhard and Cecilus can easily cut through space and Reid can cut anything he wants to, because these guys are just that cracked. You don't seem to get the point; I'm saying that these guys are already on a level where messing with space because they're just built different is casual phenomena, so it's not that hard to think that Reinhard's attacks can scale to infinite 3-dimensional forces.

We don't know how the sword was made is the problem here, we don't know the mechanics, was it always "High 3-A", or did it become so after Volcanica clawed it, your making an assumption.

That's not relevant without additional context is my problem with your argument. I'm not making an assumption, reread the scan. Reinhard never implies that the claw marks were etched early into its creation for some kind of symbolic purpose, he says it to emphasize how legendary it is as an artifact, to add weight to its value and power, not to degrade it.
The most likely explanation is that it happened when Reid fought Volcanica, but we don't know. There is NO suggestion that Volcanica was even involved in its creation. I do not have the Burden of Proof to prove that it wasn't damaged by Volcanica with its known indestructibility already in place, we don't know when it became indestructible as you yourself are saying, so by that metric, the Burden of Proof is actually on you to suggest anything of the sort. You yourself are exclaiming that we don't know how it was made, so why assume this happened at a point where the scabbard's durability was somehow lesser? That's not even conservative scaling, it's lowk just headcanon.

Just because it's called a "singularity" doesn't make it what the wiki accepts as one, you have to prove it, statements alone usually aren't enough, even if that was accepted, black feats are usually tiered by the size of the black hole, this won't get you to High 3-A.

Have you read the scan? It LITERALLY talks about pulling a star down into a single point, that is a singularity, by definition.
A singularity is a single point in space, as mass being compressed into a singular point gives it infinite density, infinite density=infinite gravity. Give it a rest. I have already proven it.

Stars in Re Zero aren't stars as we know them, just mana btw.

This is...fundamentally irrelevant to the discussion.

Reinhard in arc 6 explicitly says the dead do not move, he won't accept the absurdity of the dead coming back, something of the sort, this doesn't make sense if Reinhard just murders everyone and bring them back to life. Puck can destroy the world, nobody denies it, but it takes time.

He's referring to undead beings, the dead walking amongst the living, not actual recreation of life, hence the wording of "rebirth".

It doesn't take time, Puck himself explicitly and blatantly stated that if he released all of his Mana, the world would be destroyed, which is foreshadowing the events of Arc 3, wherein the narrator explicitly says multiple times that Puck's blizzard was actively destroying the entire world, not just a localized region. I could even find a scan of the narrator saying that Puck did destroy the world, in one of the Arc 3 loops, though I doubt it'll change your mind.

Well you are assuming that the sword doesn't get reverted along with everything else, and magically goes back to Reinhard without him noticing, when the simpler explanations is, it was destroyed. There is also the can of worms of Reinhard himself getting destroyed and remade, thus disproving him being able to tank anything world ending, but you could hand wave it off as just his memories being reverted, but simplest explanation makes most sense. Not saying this can't be true, just that it takes a lot of assumptions from current information.

There is no argument in this, it is all conjecture and we don't know what RBD does, no reason to carry it further in the discussion.

Well, you would have to start by proving the singularity is real,

Already did that.

and then from that it isn't just High 5-A based on its size, which would be an upgrade btw, but instead goes all the way to High 3-A.

This isn't how black holes work.

The stronger the density of an object is, the stronger its pull (or gravity) is on nearby objects approaching its surface, this is why neutron stars are made of neutrons, they are SO dense, that they literally crush electrons and protons into forming neutron particles.

Black holes are even more extreme than this, by an essentially infinite degree. It doesn't matter what it is, ANYTHING in the universe with mass, even particles, can become a black hole if they are made dense enough to surpass their Schwarzschild Radius, the point in which their density is so extreme that their own gravity overcomes their atomic bonds, forcing them to collapse into a literal singular point without any dimensions, no radius, no surface, etc.. Even a human could become a singularity.

The reason why it is a high-universal feat to resist the force of a singularity is because of the aforementioned factor of "The stronger the density of an object is, the stronger its pull (or gravity) is on nearby objects approaching its surface". Being a single point in space makes something literally mathematically infinitely dense, that causes it to have mathematically infinite gravity.

Being large planet level based on its size is theoretical as we kind of need to assume how large it visibly is compared to Reinhard and such, but yes we can assume it is a size comparable to what the Event Horizon of a planetary-mass black hole would be like; this doesn't change its gravity at all. Every singularity has the same gravity because every singularity has infinite density.

At best you could argue that this is a large planetary creation feat for Al because he somehow concentrated enough Mana to form a black hole, but it's treated more as hax as it should be. By that metric, Beatrice would be large star level through Mana creation feats and Mana feats scale to each other. That's actual wank. Not saying Reinhard MAAAAYBE is above country level.

 

[RinneItachi]

And fyi, the reason why the whole star thing is important (regardless of stars in Re:Zero being made of Mana and possibly being sentient) is because of the wording the narrator uses, pulling ANY mass into a singular point in space is the definition of a singularity, that single line destroys your argument, my friend. That IS the definition of a singularity. It has infinite density and therefor infinite gravity.

Reinhard partially resisting the force of this singularity is also an insane durability feat for him, putting the Dragon Sword aside.

 

[RinneItachi]

Ignoring all the contradictions (such as Reinhard having scaling against infinite power, and being incapable of damaging the Dragon Sword),

People also argue that infinite speed characters can be faster than other infinite speed characters, so I think this point is just a powerscaling issue as a whole. We also don't actually know for certain that he can't damage it, I doubt he's ever tried or would want to test it.

this line of scaling hinges on the engravings on the Dragon Sword truly having been made by Volcanica, which isn't certain.

Not sure I agree with this point, Volcanica is a god-tier dragon and Reinhard is stated numerous times by the author to be the strongest character. The notion that neither of them would scale to this on the chance that it was another dragon despite their roles in the narrative is another matter of debate on its own.

This is the history passed down, but it's also passed down that Reid is the ancestor of House Astrea, that Shaula is the Sage, and that Volcanica's blood is the Dragon Blood stored in the Royal Castle— three "facts" we know to be false, either muddied by the passage of time or purposefully doctored.

This much is true, but not that the claw marks were made by a dragon.

Not to mention the issue that even if Volcanica did make those scratches, we don't know if it was before or after the sheath was made to be indestructible. It could even have been part of the forging process, we really have no idea.

We don't know if the sheath ever wasn't indestructible, there is no implication he was involved in its creation process, and so on and so forth.

The reason I made this argument is because the only information we have to work with is the information I presented, anything else is conjecture and I don't like working on theories, that's my issue with this argument.

Unrelated, but I do agree the singularity is real. Just being called a "singularity of mass" (by definition, an infinitely dense point in space), which warps space around it, and being an on-the-fly evolution of a spell that manipulates either gravity or mass, is convincing enough for me.

Truth nuke.

 

[RinneItachi]

To be clear btw I'm not saying Reinhard should get a definitive upgrade to high-uni, I forgot to include this in the original post but I'd prefer a "possibly" or "likely" rating than just "He is objectively high-universal". Though naturally I would need to make a CRT for this to happen.

However another matter entirely is that I do think the Dragon Sword itself should have high-uni AP for other reasons, or at least dura neg. @Zabazab @Celestial_Pegasus @Vietthai96

 

[Vietthai96]

Didn't Reid have dura neg already?

 

[RinneItachi]

Maybe I should just make the CRT itself and see how it goes, there's kind of a lot I wanna address actually.

 

[RinneItachi]

Didn't Reid have dura neg already?

Not listed in his AP section, just says "far higher". It might say that in the abilities section though?

 

[RinneItachi]

Oh yeah it does, nvm that then.

 

[RinneItachi]

Every singularity has the same gravity because every singularity has infinite density.

To correct this a bit, mass still plays a factor in black hole gravity, every black hole still has a mass, and more massive black holes effect larger areas, that's why black holes get bigger (not literally bigger in diameter/radius, just mass) when they "consume" matter. They don't actually increase in size, the singularity is still a singular point in space, but that singularity still has a quantifiable mass to itself, it's just that regardless of just how enormous or small that mass is, its density is infinite, so when you're actually at the singularity, it might as well be the same regardless of the black hole's nature.

 

[Trxyway]

I could even find a scan of the narrator saying that Puck did destroy the world

Send, i want to see something

 

[VortechsTG]

Let's not bring this back

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

i think this has merit, and we should definitely keep this in the back pocket for now, however there are still some contradictions that i am seeing notably related to the lack of information on the sword's creation and the cosmology of the verse. Once, those are cleared, i think we would be able to tackle this effectively. Right now, its too heavily opinionated from each side.


Well that aside i did say i am leaning on agreeing with the fact that the Al kraum is a singularity, Reid/Reinhard being capable of tanking that, and the nerf being big enough that tappei thought he couldnt destroy the world instantly like before. Also, using old statements from qna is kind of stupid now, i believe tappei has retconned a lot of stuff and this is visible from the power creep we have been seeing, I dont trust them much.

 

[VortechsTG]

I agree that the black holes we see are actually black holes. The problem is claiming that means anything for the rest of the verse's stats besides speed. We don't know the true nature of the dragon sword's invulnerability, but we know it can bypass acausality and seemingly also a conceptually based defense. It isn't just raw power. Reid's attacks are hax as well, so that feat doesn't necessarily mean anything either.

Even if we were to say the dragon sword scales in raw durability to surviving a black hole, Volcanica did not damage the sword; he damaged the sheath. Maybe I'm just not aware of it, but I have yet to see evidence backing up the claim that the sheath is as indestructible as the sword. Arc 5 directly seems to contradict this by having Regulus' authority affect the sheath but not the sword.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Even if we were to say the dragon sword scales in raw durability to surviving a black hole, Volcanica did not damage the sword; he damaged the sheath. Maybe I'm just not aware of it, but I have yet to see evidence backing up the claim that the sheath is as indestructible as the sword. Arc 5 directly seems to contradict this by having Regulus' authority affect the sheath but not the sword.

do you mean the sword being as indestructible as the sheath? Logically speaking, it wouldnt make sense for the sword to be weaker than the sheath man, come on. Especially, when people glaze the SWORD, at no point has anybody even bothered to talk about the sheath besides "even the sheath was indestructible" or smth in arc 5

 

[VortechsTG]

Snip

I think perhaps you should reread what I wrote.

 

[Zabazab]

Even if we were to say the dragon sword scales in raw durability to surviving a black hole, Volcanica did not damage the sword; he damaged the sheath. Maybe I'm just not aware of it, but I have yet to see evidence backing up the claim that the sheath is as indestructible as the sword. Arc 5 directly seems to contradict this by having Regulus' authority affect the sheath but not the sword.

Variation in indestructibility between the sword and sheath is headcanon at the moment since not once has the indestructibility of the sword been brought up while unsheathed. When it blocked Regulus's kick, it was sheathed. When it was plunged into a black hole, it was sheathed. I also do not recall a moment where Lion's Heart affected the sheath but not the sword, how can that happen when the sword was sheathed?

 

[VortechsTG]

Variation in indestructibility between the sword and sheath is headcanon at the moment since not once has the indestructibility of the sword been brought up while unsheathed. When it blocked Regulus's kick, it was sheathed. When it was plunged into a black hole, it was sheathed. I also do not recall a moment where Lion's Heart affected the sheath but not the sword, how can that happen when the sword was sheathed?

Everything ever said about a story is a headcanon. I will concede that I misremembered a moment in arc 5. And as for arc 9 I do think the way I interpreted it would still be fair, if not for remembering the illustration showing it in the sheath. I will retract my stance on their properties being different. Though that then begs the question of how on earth Volcanica scratched it given all it has resisted so far. I've been getting the sense for a while now that all the hype about Reid being able to cut concepts does not capture the extent of his power.

 

[Trxyway]

Variation in indestructibility between the sword and sheath is headcanon at the moment since not once has the indestructibility of the sword been brought up while unsheathed. When it blocked Regulus's kick, it was sheathed. When it was plunged into a black hole, it was sheathed. I also do not recall a moment where Lion's Heart affected the sheath but not the sword, how can that happen when the sword was sheathed?

From my perspective, iirc in all the few instances where indestructibility is actually brought up, the narrative consistently attributes that property to the Dragon Sword itself and not specifically to the sheath (atleast looking at the specific excerpts on Reinhards page). The wording matters here i think because if the intent was to distinguish the sheath as uniquely indestructible then imo that’s a pretty straightforward clarification that could’ve been made explicitly but instead the focus stays on the sword as the object with that property and because of that i lean toward the interpretation that the sword’s indestructibility is an inherent trait of the weapon as a whole regardless of whether it’s sheathed or unsheathed and the fact that the notable durability feats happen while it’s sheathed doesn’t necessarily imply exclusivity but could just be situational since that’s how it happened to be at the time.

Even so ur point about all demonstrated feats happening while it’s sheathed is fair and there’s definitely a lack of direct evidence for the unsheathed state which is why i'd still call this an interpretation

 

[Zabazab]

that then begs the question of how on earth Volcanica scratched it

yea

That instant, a flash that rivaled the Dragon’s breath cleaved the white light directly in twain.

That which had done so, swinging up from down below, was the Dragon Sword Reid, still in its scabbard. The legendary blade had yet to make contact with the air, but by combining the strength of the sheath, which nobody was capable of destroying, and his own sword power, Reinhard had severed the Dragon’s breath.

 

[RinneItachi]

Send, i want to see something

Nah I may make a CRT soon for now though I'm done with this thread it's just a QNA thread and I basically got what I wanted out of it.

Let's not bring this back

Not liking the topic doesn't mean it isn't worth discussion.

I agree that the black holes we see are actually black holes. The problem is claiming that means anything for the rest of the verse's stats besides speed.

Reinhard's arm was in close proximity to a singularity and was only damaged, not destroyed.

We don't know the true nature of the dragon sword's invulnerability, but we know it can bypass acausality and seemingly also a conceptually based defense. It isn't just raw power.

This isn't an argument.

Reid's attacks are hax as well, so that feat doesn't necessarily mean anything either.

In regards to what?

Even if we were to say the dragon sword scales in raw durability to surviving a black hole, Volcanica did not damage the sword; he damaged the sheath.

Brother, the sheathe was what was inside the singularity, and the sword was in the sheathe. Plus the sheathe was able to tank Regulus' attacks.

Maybe I'm just not aware of it, but I have yet to see evidence backing up the claim that the sheath is as indestructible as the sword. Arc 5 directly seems to contradict this by having Regulus' authority affect the sheath but not the sword.

The sheath has never been damaged outside of being etched by a dragon's claws. Regulus did not effect it, what?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

While I think Al and Beatrice creation feats fall under the definition of Environmental Destruction via creation, the singularity argument is kind of legit.
Discussing vibe or DC to debunk a durability / AP feat isn't legit. We also got the "At least, possibly/likely" at our disposal, so even though this thread is more making us question ourselves and our method, I do agree with the implication of a possibly rating for the sword Saint.