Re:Zero Light Speed Downgrade

[MrTayman616]

Introduction​

This is a thread to remove Light Speed scaling of Jiwald from every profile in the series, including Sub-Relativistic combat speed.

Current Justifications
Current justifications are simple and all ratings mostly rely on one thing, Jiwald.

Jiwald is an application of yang magic, creates heat rays that move in a straight line and travel at the speed of light. They're been called a beam of light several times, they reflect like normal light and they're heat rays. Conclusion: Fulfills most of our Laser/Light Beam standards.

Now, there are a few problem with this:
1. Light Speed statement is just wrong.

直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点――しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる。

This isn't a statement of light speed but just an exaggeration of it's speed, just a way to say so fast. This isn't an actual comparison to light speed.

Now, does it matter as it still fulfills several Laser/Light standards? Yes, it matters a lot because it's not consistent with any other statement or feat at all.

2. Statements/Feats

Cecilus Segmunt, the fastest character in the series, his speed and the speed of his swordmanship is stated to be as fast as lightning(sometimes faster) several times. Other characters can't even react to his movement speed. Like Emilia, who's capable of reacting to multiple Jiwald and acting against them at the same time, cannot even follow his movement speed. He's also capable of running through countless Jiwald while stated to be moving at lightning speed in that exact scene.

Reinhard Van Astrea, while in the sand dunes, is stated to be unable to react to lightning speed and doesn't even compare to it. Even though Reinhard is at his weakest in the sand dunes and can normally combat at this speed as he's capable of fighting against Cecilus, he's still superior to most of the verse in that weakened state, even above "Aldebaran" who's using the Divine Dragon as a vessel. This still shows other characters are not on this level of speed, which it's also stated again that the lightning's speed reminds Cecilus's speed, contradicting the combat speed of others.

Hell Snipe and Jiwald have comparable speed as shown here. In Arc 6 Gluttony What If, Reinhard moves at equal speed to the Hell Snipe that was directed to the direction Felt was hiding. He moved seemingly hundreds of meters to kilometers along with it.
Reinhard is stated to be slower than Cecilus Segmunt who moves at lightning speed, he cannot follow it in terms of movement speed if it was moving at that speed. Also, it takes him more than several minutes to reach the planet from moon.

Elsa Granhiert, while fighting against Garfiel Tinzel, it's stated that her blade surpasses the speed of sound as she swings it and "so fast it left even the sound ripping the air trailing behind".

The Archbishop of Wrath, Sirius Romanée-Conti, uses her chains to fight in close combat. She uses them against both Priscilla and Emilia, which the chains are stated to move at a speed exceeding sound.

Subaru, in volume 21, states that:

She has the advantage when it comes to matching blow for blow, but my whip won’t lose in terms of speed. In speed alone, a whip even works against people on the superhuman level in this world.

In Arc 10 Chapter 14, Subaru refers to the whip's speed as "Swifter than sword or spell" and claims it's the fastest attack present while Beatrice is with him.

Yae Tenzen, one of the most powerful shinobi and said to be the greatest shinobi produced in Vollachia Empire, capable of fighting against characters like Wilhelm(though she was being overwhelmed) and Emilia, states that the speed of her ultimate and fastest technique is around the speed of sound. (Arc 9, Volume 43)

It's extremely obvious that Jiwald is just a fast heat ray rather than a beam moving at light speed, considering the countless characters that were able to dodge/handle it and the amount of statements that refuses it to be the case.

---

Al Clauzeria​

This is something that should have been fixed a long time ago, it has already been discussed several times in the general discussion thread but no one made a content revision thread about it.

Al Clauzeria, one of Julius Juukulius's trump card.

Speed of Light attack speed with Al Clauzeria (It is a ray of light that flies fast and true like a speeding arrow, and moves at the speed of light)

The problem is that the speed of light statement is just a mistranslation and talks about the speed of the aurora.

Also, this adds another point to the speed scaling of other characters.

As shown in the scan, Carillon is a flying dragon that moves faster than sound. While Al Clauzeria is faster than Carillon, the difference between them isn’t that huge. Carillon was flapping his wings and struggling to escape, but eventually got hit. Still, the fact that he was able to do that shows the gap between them isn’t that big.

This is important because it's stated that you'd require Reinhard level reflexes to dodge this attack, making this another contradiction for Light Speed Jiwald and Sub-Relativistic mid tiers overall.

---

Additional Stuff:
Olbart Dunkelkenn currently scales to MHS+ in terms of movement speed based on this:

Massively Hypersonic+ travel speed (Olbart can somewhat keep up with Cecilus)

This is wrong. Cecilus was mostly following a Dragon that is vastly slower than himself while this happened. Olbart cannot be scaled to being somewhat comparable with Cecilus based on this alone.

The statement for the Dragon's movement speed there while escaping:

Once the Dragon had decided to fly and started moving, its speed was extraordinary, turning back and rising into the sky so swiftly, that it was like an arrow being shot with full force

So, that should simply be removed from his profile.

---

Conclusion:

This calc should be removed, as it is under the assumption that Jiwald moves at light speed.

Roswaal J. slips past Jiwald - 0.0412c (Sub-Relativistic)

This is the only calc almost every character other than top tiers scales to.

Unless there is no other calculation based on other feats, those who scales to "Sub-Relativistic" will simply scale to Supersonic combat speed based on the statements. Those who scales to Prime Wilhelm and Sword Saint Theresia will get Hypersonic+ combat speed from this calc (Mach 8.3). Some could get "likely higher" rating based on the scaling chain.

I'll be making a part two for top tiers, as their scaling is a little more complicated.

 

[Robo432343]

agree
reinhard skillstomps

 

[RitsuØ1]

Looks fine

 

[God_of_perversion]

Bro how many crts are you gonna make without posting it on the General discussion tread for rezero supporters to see
Lets wait for them to deffend the verse before agreing with the crt at least

 

[MrTayman616]

Bro how many crts are you gonna make without posting it on the General discussion tread for rezero supporters to see
Lets wait for them to deffend the verse before agreing with the crt at least

I forgot. (I was rereading webnovel of arc 3 to find something :d)

 

[Crimsonobu]

Bro how many crts are you gonna make without posting it on the General discussion tread for rezero supporters to see
Lets wait for them to deffend the verse before agreing with the crt at least

We ain't defending this bro

Most of us agree the speed scaling is stinky but it was just a matter of who wanted to deal with it so I'm in agreement with Tayman

 

[Crimsonobu]

Would Cecilus scale to the Reinhard jumping back from the moon feat as the fastest if this is accepted? Or is there another speed feat higher

 

[Lilybitdun]

Would Cecilus scale to the Reinhard jumping back from the moon feat as the fastest if this is accepted? Or is there another speed feat higher

I'll be making a part two for top tiers, as their scaling is a little more complicated.

 

[MrTayman616]

Would Cecilus scale to the Reinhard jumping back from the moon feat as the fastest if this is accepted? Or is there another speed feat higher

I won't touch top tiers here, it's for the next part. I might change or add some calcs in between. (Cecilus obviously scales to any speed feat Reinhard does)

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Agree

Down with the frauds

 

[Dalesean027]

This is definitely thorough and well made so im leaning agree but I want to wait first to see what any opposition says

 

[Zabazab]

My sword can cut even Mach 5, ya prick.

“—Was that your full strength? Or are you simply trying to anger me? If this is a provocation, you will suffer the consequences, you know? The one delivering them will be me, and the one suffering them will be you.”

As he spoke, the Mad Prince caught the white light, pinching it between two raised fingers.

The light slowly lost its radiance at the man’s fingertips, eventually exposing the true form of a single long needle, which then shattered and dissipated into mist. —A needle constructed of magic, fired at hypersonic speeds. It was known as…

“Hell’s Snipe… which means…”

 

[Lilybitdun]

So does that mean Jiwald would be listed as Hypersonic attack speed for being comparable to Hell's Snipe?
Btw checked if Hypersonic Jiwald was used it makes the Roswaal feat Subsonic lol

 

[MrTayman616]

My sword can cut even Mach 5, ya prick.

So does that mean Jiwald would be listed as Hypersonic attack speed for being comparable to Hell's Snipe?
Btw checked if Hypersonic Jiwald was used it makes the Roswaal feat Subsonic lol

I don't remember hypersonic statement in the what if, u sure it's accurate? I might check it after lesson.

 

[Zabazab]

Hypersonic attack speed

Nah that was a very liberal translation of the line, the jp is more like "super-high speed" it seems. Still funny though.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

it is not just that Jiwald is compared to light. The important part is the complete chain of evidence presented by the text.

The attack is introduced as a heat ray:

「熱線」

The narration then elaborates on its properties:

「射線上にあるものを焼き尽くし、焼き切り、切断する熱波の刃だ」

("A blade of thermal energy that burns, sears, and cuts through everything in its line of fire.")

It further notes that the attack travels in a straight line:

「直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点」

("Its weakness would seem to be that it moves linearly and is therefore easy to evade.")

However, the narration immediately explains that this weakness is overcome through its immense speed:

「しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる」

("However, the heat ray forcibly overcame that weakness, rushing straight toward its prey at a speed one could mistake for light itself.")

At this point, the attack possesses several characteristics commonly associated with light-based attacks:

• It is explicitly a ray/beam (熱線).
• It propagates in a straight line.
• Its speed is directly compared to light by the narration.

Individually, none of these points would necessarily prove literal light-speed. However, the next lines are what make the passage significant.

Reid then states:

「──オレの剣は光も斬るぜ、オメエ」

("My sword cuts light too, you know.")

Immediately afterwards:

「放たれる箸撃が熱線を正面から切り裂いた」

("The strike he unleashed split the heat ray head-on.")

The sequence is therefore:

1. A heat ray is fired.
2. The narration emphasizes its straight-line travel and compares its speed to light.
3. Reid explicitly claims he can cut light.
4. Reid cuts the very attack that was just being described.

This is why the feat is often interpreted as more than a standalone simile. The narration first establishes a light comparison for the attack, and then has Reid directly invoke his ability to cut light in the exact moment he intercepts it. The statement is not being made in isolation; it is presented as an explanation for how he was able to perform the feat.

While 「光もかくやという速度」 alone may not be sufficient to prove Jiwald to be light speed, the surrounding context strongly links the attack to light and directly ties Reid's "cutting light" statement to the interception itself.

The presented argument about the translation misses the entire context around the scene

 

[MrTayman616]

it is not just that Jiwald is compared to light. The important part is the complete chain of evidence presented by the text.

The attack is introduced as a heat ray:

The narration then elaborates on its properties:

("A blade of thermal energy that burns, sears, and cuts through everything in its line of fire.")

It further notes that the attack travels in a straight line:

("Its weakness would seem to be that it moves linearly and is therefore easy to evade.")

However, the narration immediately explains that this weakness is overcome through its immense speed:

("However, the heat ray forcibly overcame that weakness, rushing straight toward its prey at a speed one could mistake for light itself.")

At this point, the attack possesses several characteristics commonly associated with light-based attacks:

• It is explicitly a ray/beam (熱線).
• It propagates in a straight line.
• Its speed is directly compared to light by the narration.

Individually, none of these points would necessarily prove literal light-speed. However, the next lines are what make the passage significant.

Everything there is present in the starting point of the thread.

Jiwald is an application of yang magic, creates heat rays that move in a straight line and travel at the speed of light. They're been called a beam of light several times, they reflect like normal light and they're heat rays. Conclusion: Fulfills most of our Laser/Light Beam standards.

---

Reid then states:

("My sword cuts light too, you know.")

Immediately afterwards:

("The strike he unleashed split the heat ray head-on.")

The sequence is therefore:

1. A heat ray is fired.
2. The narration emphasizes its straight-line travel and compares its speed to light.
3. Reid explicitly claims he can cut light.
4. Reid cuts the very attack that was just being described.

This is why the feat is often interpreted as more than a standalone simile. The narration first establishes a light comparison for the attack, and then has Reid directly invoke his ability to cut light in the exact moment he intercepts it. The statement is not being made in isolation; it is presented as an explanation for how he was able to perform the feat.

This is literally meaningless for light speed. (I mean considering overall)

Basically what you added is just "It was already being called light several times, now Reid calls it light too."

Jiwald is still Yang Magic and light. Reid saying "I can cut light" doesn't mean anything for it's speed. For example, it could just be Balleroy's light bullet with Yang Magic and he'd still be cutting light. I'm not arguing Jiwald isn't Yang Magic or anything.

It's light speed statement isn't an actual comparison. Also, every other feat and statement (even ones that include Jiwald) disagrees with it being the case extremely clearly.

 

[TheHeavenlySword]

I disagree.

Yang magic can create natural light or manipulate natural light that exist in the environment, the same goes for the other elements, and Jiwald was directly stated as "white light in its most simple form" so unless your argument is that natural light itself isn't LS then No.

Aldebaran: [Optical camouflage, is that bending light to make yourself transparent? So you can do that sorta thing?]

“Aldebaran”: [As you’d expect, correcting it while moving in real time’d be impossible, you know? But, when limited to just the times when I’m completely still, most of the demerits that come with this body quite literally disappear, yeah?]

Aldebaran: [Sounds about right. I think a Dragon that turns invisible’s pretty damn cool.]

It was possible to realize magic that bent light by combining Yang Magic and Wind Magic, but it would consume far too much fuel to have it continuously active. It required a very precise control of magic to blend into the surrounding environment, and it was a challenge that would very likely not reach the sought-after standard.
Arc 9, Chapter 31

“I can use light magic to bend light around me and wind magic to diffuse my aura. Now, think y’ can find me and Carillon here?”
Using magic to make himself and his mount appear as if they were part of the scenery, he flew where he pleased and shot at his leisure; he was functionally invisible. If there was a downside, it was that Balleroy himself couldn’t hear anything, but there was no chance of his being discovered. It was a small price to pay to become a sniper who was constantly in motion—a battlefield nightmare.
Re:Zero Ex Light Novel Volume 4

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This is frankly too massive a topic for me to pay attention to or argue for right now, hence why I said I would look at it in a couple weeks, so yea I won't respond for a bit.

My opinion still is Jiwald is legit lightspeed regardless of the existence of the light speed statement, because it meets all the requirements; moves in a straight line, described as light/heat, reflects off surfaces such as ice and mirrors, heats up metal etc.

However there are many issues, and clear anti-feats in scaling it to everyone which has to be examined to determine what to do.

 

[BoastJr]

I personally believe its fine for Top Tiers or God tiers (Cecilus, Halibel, Reinhard) to scale to it (assuming if its Ligh Speed)

But we should remove Sub Relatistic scaling.

I think a Possibly rating could also work as its not a crazy stretch here

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It's extremely messy, whether or not Al Clauzeria is legit lightspeed, the intention imo clearly was for the cast to not being able dodge that sort of thing up to arc 5, since supposeldy you would need to be as fast as Reinhard to do it, Jiwald being legit lightspeed, would just make it more hilarious because come arc 7-8 there are many many feats of dodging Jiwald, and maybe even some arguments involving Arakiya using natural light too.

Then next arc an extremely nerfed Reinhard struggles with lightning speed, a mid tier combatant, who is relative to the cast, has their ultimate attack, being transonic, despite Elsa 5 arcs ago having supersonic feats...

But yea you can go into the whole thing about nerfed Cecilus who has the body of a child is stated to be lightning speed, and is too fast for someone like Emilia to see, but in the same arc, she is instinctively reacting to Sphinx's Jiwald, so you could also go in to a whole thing about the characters can't fight at anywhere close to lightspeed, but maybe they can react that fast.

There are many different things to look at, it's not as simple as Jiwald wasn't verbatim stated to be lightspeed, so lets just ignore all the other stuff which confirms it, and clearly a nerfed Reinhard is logically far above the mid tiers, and yet he is only lightning speed, so clearly nobody is sub-relativistic, though ultimately that could very well be the case, but it needs a close examination.

Anyway this will be my last post for a bit, next time will be a long post, with all the statements and feats.

 

[MrTayman616]

I disagree.

Yang magic can create natural light or manipulate natural light that exist in the environment, the same goes for the other elements, and Jiwald was directly stated as "white light in its most simple form" so unless your argument is that natural light itself isn't LS then No.

Not only this completely ignores the "2. Statements/Feats" section, but from our standards, that would just apply as filling just one of the basic requirements.

• The beam is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by reliable sources.

Like, we don't think light beams in fiction that aren't accepted as/doesn't move at light speed are not light. We don't think those lights are some special form of existence either.

Dunno the point of the text you sent. It's just one of the applications of Yang Magic&Wind Magic (invinsibility) used by a few character.

If you're referring to it being possible to bend light with Yang Magic,Yang Magic includes light manipulation(Yang Magic, duh :d). One of it's applications being "bending light" doesn't mean much.

 

[MrTayman616]

My opinion still is Jiwald is legit lightspeed regardless of the existence of the light speed statement, because it meets all the requirements; moves in a straight line, described as light/heat, reflects off surfaces such as ice and mirrors, heats up metal etc.

It meeting several requirements doesn't mean we'd simply ignore literally everything and call it light speed.

It's still Yang Magic, it having some light properties isn't anything insane.

However there are many issues, and clear anti-feats in scaling it to everyone which has to be examined to determine what to do.

This can't work. Literally one arc amount of Jiwald dodging/deflecting feat.

Calling Jiwald light speed requires to ignore an entire arc of feats of mid tiers and above.

There can't be something like "Let's just not apply it to everyone, light speed Jiwald should just scale to top tiers" for example just so it can scale to light speed in a better way.

It's clearly not used as light speed in the series.

2. Statements/Feats

 

[MrTayman616]

It's extremely messy, whether or not Al Clauzeria is legit lightspeed, the intention imo clearly was for the cast to not being able dodge that sort of thing up to arc 5, since supposeldy you would need to be as fast as Reinhard to do it, Jiwald being legit lightspeed, would just make it more hilarious because come arc 7-8 there are many many feats of dodging Jiwald, and maybe even some arguments involving Arakiya using natural light too.

Al Clauzeria's light speed scaling was always wrong, known to everyone :d. But yeah, it is still extremely hard to dodge it.

And yes, Jiwald being light speed would just be hilarious based on every feat and statement in the series.

Then next arc an extremely nerfed Reinhard struggles with lightning speed, a mid tier combatant, who is relative to the cast, has their ultimate attack, being transonic, despite Elsa 5 arcs ago having supersonic feats...

Tbh, i can see Elsa being that strong...

The mid tiers etc characters hasn't grown fast to the point speed of sound attacks and whip doesn't have relevancy. (Sure, many can handle it. but not like they're far above it or anything)

Every statement in the previous arcs, and even Yae and Subaru's statements in the latest arcs(9-10) shows this to be the case.

But yea you can go into the whole thing about nerfed Cecilus who has the body of a child is stated to be lightning speed, and is too fast for someone like Emilia to see, but in the same arc, she is instinctively reacting to Sphinx's Jiwald, so you could also go in to a whole thing about the characters can't fight at anywhere close to lightspeed, but maybe they can react that fast.

Not just instinctively but a clear feat of doing it below the text. Previous Roswaal also dodges it(Used her as we have a visual :d).

Saying they can't fight but react this speed would mean all those characters can react to Cecilus Segmunt, which is a clear contradiction.

That type of "Maybe" just ignores everything for the sake of putting unnecessary doubt. "The speed statements are clear, but maybe they're wrong so Jiwald can be light speed" type of argument.

"The fastest character moves at lightning speed, but maybe not and everyone can react to light" type of thing is an insane claim that refuses every feat and statement.

Then we should also put Subaru's "stated to move at sound speed "whip to speed of light level as well. Ignoring several sound speed statements about it, maybe it is light speed. It's faster than Beatrice's spells after all and has relevancy to mid tiers. I can just argue for anything based on scaling like that.

There are many different things to look at, it's not as simple as Jiwald wasn't verbatim stated to be lightspeed, so lets just ignore all the other stuff which confirms it, and clearly a nerfed Reinhard is logically far above the mid tiers, and yet he is only lightning speed, so clearly nobody is sub-relativistic, though ultimately that could very well be the case, but it needs a close examination.

Now, does it matter as it still fulfills several Laser/Light standards? Yes, it matters a lot because it's not consistent with any other statement or feat at all.

I'm not ignoring something that confirms it, there isn't anything that actually confirms it to be the case.

If you're referring to it fullilling several Laser/Light Beam standards of ours, i don't think it goes above definite feats and statements of this level. Mid Tiers obviously doesn't scale nowhere near to even lightning speed, while they can react to Jiwald.

Even Jamal, who's strong yet not comparable to the level of a divine general, was able to jump in and push Subaru away after Jiwald was fired. Same for Grimm, who came in front of Roswaal after Al Jiwald was fired(That's like Rel-Rel+ feat there based on this).

Accepting Jiwald as light speed takes away every combat related statement as nothing and wrong, while there are even showcases of Jiwald not being light speed based on the feats that includes Jiwald itself.

Those character's clearly doesn't scale to sub-relativistic. Feats and Statements are extremely clear about it not being the case. How does "though ultimately that could wery well be the case" even happens? By ignoring feats, statements and consistency for higher scaling? There isn't really anything that needs close examination. (I'm not claiming you just want higher scaling or anything btw, that's just what the conclusion of that becomes :d)

Also, nerfed Reinhard isn't at lighting speed, he's far below.

 

[Trxyway]

Also, nerfed Reinhard isn't at lighting speed, he's far below.

Why exactly is "far below"?

For the first excerpt i think the context matters. The lightning is being intentionally guided to Reinhard through the Dragon Sword's electric charge following the same principle as a lightning rod. The text says he cannot "escape" the lightning, but when something is actively homing onto you then dodging it normally isn't an option in the first place so in that situation "escape" is closer to "outrun" than "fail to perceive or react to." Outrun is also stated again in the 2nd Scan as the "fact" that aldebaran realized from their previous battles. The second scan i think is even less convincing because the narration specifically says he cannot outrun lightning like i said, which is a statement about movement/travel speed and not necessarily reaction or combat speed or w.e. On top of that Reinhard is oxygen deprived during the shot of the attack, yet he still reacts to the first railgun shot and whole it's traveling to him he has time to notice a slight deviation in its trajectory and then narrowly avoids a direct hit. But sure, he gets grazed, but imo that's a lot different from being unable to react at all. Then later he outright intercepts another railgun shot with the Dragon Sword's sheath before it can hit him. If the argument is that nerfed Reinhard isn't lightning speed in travel speed that's one thing. But saying he's "far below" lightning speed overall seems like he's completely helpless against it. And Reinhard being undoubtadly the strongest character in the series would be weird you know, especially since it's stated later during his fight with Satella that him and her would defeat anyone in the current world in an instant if they weren't fighting eachother (depends how you take this statement into consideration), but then at the same time be...much slower than Cecilus who is also included in this world? Idk

 

[Trxyway]

Wtf is above me

 

[MrTayman616]

Why exactly is "far below"?

For the first excerpt i think the context matters. The lightning is being intentionally guided to Reinhard through the Dragon Sword's electric charge following the same principle as a lightning rod. The text says he cannot "escape" the lightning, but when something is actively homing onto you then dodging it normally isn't an option in the first place so in that situation "escape" is closer to "outrun" than "fail to perceive or react to." Outrun is also stated again in the 2nd Scan as the "fact" that aldebaran realized from their previous battles.

For the first, the scan i sent doesn't leave out anything from the context anyway :d.

You misunderstand how lightning rod works. They decide the path before the strike starts. It's not some active homing system for lightning. It doesn't actively seek the rod after the discharge happens.

The second scan i think is even less convincing because the narration specifically says he cannot outrun lightning like i said, which is a statement about movement/travel speed and not necessarily reaction or combat speed or w.e. On top of that Reinhard is oxygen deprived during the shot of the attack, yet he still reacts to the first railgun shot and whole it's traveling to him he has time to notice a slight deviation in its trajectory and then narrowly avoids a direct hit. But sure, he gets grazed, but imo that's a lot different from being unable to react at all.

Magia Railgun isn't some homing attack. It clearly refers to his ability to dodge it in the text as well. The attack comes from the distance, literally the best thing he can do, as even the text says, is to lean a little forward while the entire attack comes to him from a distance. That was what he could do best at the moment, and that attack still grazed him.

You're underestimating the distance/time difference a lot. A lightning attack coming from just 50 meters away, the timeframe you'd have to escape would be 50/440000 = 0.000113636364 second. Reinhard just leans a little, this is like 10 cm or something. That would be 879.999997 m/s. Even if we overrated it and say a meter, it still wouldn't be close. And btw, this is while ignoring the fact that his divine protection actively changes the attack's direction.

Two divine protection, one to make him the best decision and the other to redirect the attack somewhere else, this is the best result Reinhard can get. The difference is shown to be massive regardless of the case.

Then later he outright intercepts another railgun shot with the Dragon Sword's sheath before it can hit him. If the argument is that nerfed Reinhard isn't lightning speed in travel speed that's one thing. But saying he's "far below" lightning speed overall seems like he's completely helpless against it.

Even Aldebaran states he did this thanks to the Divine Protection of Second Coming. And this is against an attack that is coming from a distance like i said before. He doesn't do something like slashing it away or something while it was in front of him either.

He is slower than lightning there, both movement and combat. Literally the entire point of the statements.

And Reinhard being undoubtadly the strongest character in the series would be weird you know, especially since it's stated later during his fight with Satella that him and her would defeat anyone in the current world in an instant if they weren't fighting eachother (depends how you take this statement into consideration), but then at the same time be...much slower than Cecilus who is also included in this world? Idk

Reinhard isn't the best at everything and surpassed in many area but one thing is absolute, he's the strongest.

Also, the statement doesn't cover the likes of the Cecilus, and even at worst, It literally doesn't include Cecilus at all. Cecilus was quite literally able to defeat Satella's this form in the what ifs. There are characters that are canonically able to stop Reinhard for some time as well, so this just ignores the expections of the statement.

 

[Godslayermeli]

Introduction​

This is a thread to remove Light Speed scaling of Jiwald from every profile in the series, including Sub-Relativistic combat speed.

Current Justifications
Current justifications are simple and all ratings mostly rely on one thing, Jiwald.

Jiwald is an application of yang magic, creates heat rays that move in a straight line and travel at the speed of light. They're been called a beam of light several times, they reflect like normal light and they're heat rays. Conclusion: Fulfills most of our Laser/Light Beam standards.

Now, there are a few problem with this:
1. Light Speed statement is just wrong.

This isn't a statement of light speed but just an exaggeration of it's speed, just a way to say so fast. This isn't an actual comparison to light speed.

Now, does it matter as it still fulfills several Laser/Light standards? Yes, it matters a lot because it's not consistent with any other statement or feat at all.

2. Statements/Feats

Cecilus Segmunt, the fastest character in the series, his speed and the speed of his swordmanship is stated to be as fast as lightning(sometimes faster) several times. Other characters can't even react to his movement speed. Like Emilia, who's capable of reacting to multiple Jiwald and acting against them at the same time, cannot even follow his movement speed. He's also capable of running through countless Jiwald while stated to be moving at lightning speed in that exact scene.

Reinhard Van Astrea, while in the sand dunes, is stated to be unable to react to lightning speed and doesn't even compare to it. Even though Reinhard is at his weakest in the sand dunes and can normally combat at this speed as he's capable of fighting against Cecilus, he's still superior to most of the verse in that weakened state, even above "Aldebaran" who's using the Divine Dragon as a vessel. This still shows other characters are not on this level of speed, which it's also stated again that the lightning's speed reminds Cecilus's speed, contradicting the combat speed of others.

Hell Snipe and Jiwald have comparable speed as shown here. In Arc 6 Gluttony What If, Reinhard moves at equal speed to the Hell Snipe that was directed to the direction Felt was hiding. He moved seemingly hundreds of meters to kilometers along with it.
Reinhard is stated to be slower than Cecilus Segmunt who moves at lightning speed, he cannot follow it in terms of movement speed if it was moving at that speed. Also, it takes him more than several minutes to reach the planet from moon.

Elsa Granhiert, while fighting against Garfiel Tinzel, it's stated that her blade surpasses the speed of sound as she swings it and "so fast it left even the sound ripping the air trailing behind".

The Archbishop of Wrath, Sirius Romanée-Conti, uses her chains to fight in close combat. She uses them against both Priscilla and Emilia, which the chains are stated to move at a speed exceeding sound.

Subaru, in volume 21, states that:

In Arc 10 Chapter 14, Subaru refers to the whip's speed as "Swifter than sword or spell" and claims it's the fastest attack present while Beatrice is with him.

Yae Tenzen, one of the most powerful shinobi and said to be the greatest shinobi produced in Vollachia Empire, capable of fighting against characters like Wilhelm(though she was being overwhelmed) and Emilia, states that the speed of her ultimate and fastest technique is around the speed of sound. (Arc 9, Volume 43)

It's extremely obvious that Jiwald is just a fast heat ray rather than a beam moving at light speed, considering the countless characters that were able to dodge/handle it and the amount of statements that refuses it to be the case.

---

Al Clauzeria​

This is something that should have been fixed a long time ago, it has already been discussed several times in the general discussion thread but no one made a content revision thread about it.

Al Clauzeria, one of Julius Juukulius's trump card.

The problem is that the speed of light statement is just a mistranslation and talks about the speed of the aurora.

Also, this adds another point to the speed scaling of other characters.

As shown in the scan, Carillon is a flying dragon that moves faster than sound. While Al Clauzeria is faster than Carillon, the difference between them isn’t that huge. Carillon was flapping his wings and struggling to escape, but eventually got hit. Still, the fact that he was able to do that shows the gap between them isn’t that big.

This is important because it's stated that you'd require Reinhard level reflexes to dodge this attack, making this another contradiction for Light Speed Jiwald and Sub-Relativistic mid tiers overall.

---

Additional Stuff:
Olbart Dunkelkenn currently scales to MHS+ in terms of movement speed based on this:

This is wrong. Cecilus was mostly following a Dragon that is vastly slower than himself while this happened. Olbart cannot be scaled to being somewhat comparable with Cecilus based on this alone.

The statement for the Dragon's movement speed there while escaping:

So, that should simply be removed from his profile.

---

Conclusion:

This calc should be removed, as it is under the assumption that Jiwald moves at light speed.

This is the only calc almost every character other than top tiers scales to.

Unless there is no other calculation based on other feats, those who scales to "Sub-Relativistic" will simply scale to Supersonic combat speed based on the statements. Those who scales to Prime Wilhelm and Sword Saint Theresia will get Hypersonic+ combat speed from this calc (Mach 8.3). Some could get "likely higher" rating based on the scaling chain.

I'll be making a part two for top tiers, as their scaling is a little more complicated.

The Re:Zero Light Speed Defence
Do not engage with this post IF
1. You think characters in fiction cannot be light speed
2. You think combat speed = or must be ~ travel speed
3. You scale with your eyeballs and intuition rather than feats and statements

If you do not hold to these standards, then we can begin. Firstly, this post will be divided into a few sections, the first will be a response to one of the worst arguments which has ever been provided in an attempt to refute characters in Re:Zero being light speed.

Debunk 1 — Jiwald is not light speed
The main refutation is that this statement which I will be quoting underneath in the Japanese, does not say that Jiwald moves at the speed of light, rather, it simply says that it may rival light in speed:

“直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点――しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる”
“A drawback that made it seem linear and easy to dodge――however, the heat ray forcibly crushed that weaknesses with a speed that could rival light itself, charging straight at its prey.”

And this is used as a response because it does not flat out just utter “it is light speed.” Now, I’m going to give an argument that stems from both the standards of VSBW, and simple abductive reasoning.

Firstly, what are VSBW’s standards?
VSBW states that a light beam is only light speed if:

1. The beam behaves in a reasonably realistic way, such as reflecting off non-magical mirrors or refracting and diffusing through liquids and materials.
2. The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.
3. The beam is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by reliable sources.
4. The beam originates from a real source of light, such as the Sun or the flash of a camera.

Now, let us think to what Yang magic, specifically Jiwald does. Jiwald is a beam of light which moves only in a straight line, which is one of its major weaknesses. So, like light, Jiwald moves in a straight line. Now, let us see something else, does Jiwald reflect off mirrors?

The answer is yes, and this is quite consistent. Firstly, we have an instance in…

Arc 8 Ch. 65:
“地を蹴り、アラキアを抱いたセシルスの速度が雷速へ迫る。

そのセシルスの疾走範囲を取り囲むように空中に生じるのは、いくつもの美しい水でできた鏡――その鏡面が、『魔女』の放つ白い熱線を跳ね返し、光が乱舞する。

まさしく、四方八方から致命の光が乱れ撃たれ、セシルスを狙う。

「いだだだだだだだだだだだてん！」

その荒れ狂う光の嵐の中を、舞うように踊るようにセシルスは駆け抜ける。身を傾け、前屈みになり、足を広げて姿勢を低く、時には大股で光を跨いだ。

そして躱し切れない角度には『夢剣』の刀身を合わせ、光を跳ね返して水鏡を割る。水面に平らな石を投げる水切りの飛沫音を立てて、割られた水鏡の飛び散る水滴を浴びながら嵐の中を突っ切って――”

Or in English

“Kicking off the ground, Cecilus’s speed, with Arakiya in his arms, approached lightning speed.

Appearing in midair so as to surround the range of Cecilus’s sprint were numerous beautiful mirrors made of water――their mirror surfaces reflected the white heat rays fired by the “Witch,” and light danced wildly.

Truly, lethal light was fired chaotically from every direction, targeting Cecilus.

“I-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-ten!”

Through that raging storm of light, Cecilus ran as if dancing. He tilted his body, bent forward, spread his legs and lowered his posture, and at times stepped over the light with long strides.

And for the angles he could not fully evade, he brought the blade of the “Dream Sword” into line with them, reflecting the light and breaking the water mirrors. With the splashing sound of a flat stone skipping across the water, while bathing in the scattered droplets from the shattered water mirrors, he cut his way through the storm――”

So light in Re:Zero reflects off mirrors, but maybe this might be an outlier, and this is inconsistent with other pieces of information. So let’s see:

Arc 8 Ch. 68:
“「――要・排除です」

瞬間、小首を傾げた女性――スピンクスの指から白光が放たれ、それを「え」とエミリアは脊髄反射で張った氷の鏡で斜めに逸らした。

もし、エミリアが得意なのが火属性でなく土属性だったら、土や石の壁を一発で貫通されて致命傷を受けたかもしれない。

そう思わせるような、ゾッとするくらい殺意に満ちた攻撃だった。

しかも――、

「もう！　すごーくいきなり始めるんだから！」

放たれた白光はその一発だけでなく、銀髪を躍らせるエミリアを追いかけるように光の熱線が世界を切り刻み、戦いが始まってしまった。

相手はエキドナとそっくりで、どうやらエキドナと同じで魔法が得意らしい。

でも、それはエミリアも同じだ。”

Or, in English:
““—Elimination required.”

In that instant, the woman who had tilted her head slightly—Sphinx—fired a white beam of light from her fingertip, and Emilia reflexively threw up an ice mirror, deflecting it diagonally away with pure spinal instinct.

If Emilia’s specialty had been earth rather than fire, then a wall of dirt or stone might have been pierced through in a single shot, leaving her with a fatal wound.

It was the kind of attack that made you think that—an attack so chillingly filled with killing intent.

And on top of that—

“Honestly! You’re starting so suddenly!”

That white beam was not the only shot. Blazing rays of light carved up the world as they chased after Emilia, her silver hair flying, and just like that, the battle had begun.

The opponent looked exactly like Echidna, and apparently, just like Echidna, she was highly skilled in magic.

But Emilia was the same.”

In other words, Yang magic in Re:Zero is both called a beam of light, it’s also called a heat ray, with the kanji specifically being 熱線 meaning infrared rays or heat rays, it moves in a straight line, and using Mezoreia’s Dragon Breath as we see here:

Arc 7 Ch. 57B
“天空から白い光が放たれた刹那、エミリアとプリシラは同時に動いていた。

音もなく、合図もなく氷の塔が生み出され、地上から伸びる塔の頂には銀と紅、二つの美貌が踊り込む。

地上十数メートルへ一瞬で伸び上がった塔の頂上、エミリアは両手を空に掲げ、白い光の着弾が予想される範囲に巨大な氷の天蓋を作り出す。

そうして作り出した天蓋の内側に、それより一回り小さい天蓋を、さらにその内側にはもう一回り小さい天蓋を、それを繰り返し重ね、六枚の氷の天蓋が空を覆った。

そして、エミリアが氷雪の防護を組み立てる裏側で、プリシラはそのすべらかな指を虚空へ伸ばし、空間を鞘とする『陽剣』を引き抜く。

赤々とした輝きと、目を奪われる宝飾の数々で彩られた珠玉の宝剣、しかし、その内から溢れる光は万全のときと比べるべくもなく弱々しい。

それでもなお、プリシラは宝剣を構え、頭上を仰いだ。

次の瞬間、落ちてくる白い光が一番外側の天蓋を直撃し、ほんの一秒ももたず、一枚目の天蓋が、二枚目、三枚目の天蓋が貫かれ、光が地上へ迫りゆく。

だが、貫かれ、破られた天蓋が役目をまるで果たせなかったと言えば、それは否だ。

光を受け、貫かれる瞬間、わずかに光の角度が変わる。

一枚目、二枚目、三枚目と微々たる変化が、四枚目、五枚目とささやかな変化となり、そして六枚目が破られた刹那には、光の入り方は確実に変わった。

真っ直ぐ、白い光が氷の塔へと、頂に立つ二人へと落ちる。

それを迎え撃つように、真紅の煌めきが美しく鮮やかに、そして抗うような一閃となって放たれ――、”

Meaning;
“The instant a white light was fired from the heavens, Emilia and Priscilla moved at the same time.

Without a sound, without any signal, a tower of ice was created, and silver and crimson—two beauties—leapt onto the top of the tower rising from the ground.

At the summit of the tower, which had shot up in an instant to a height of more than ten meters above the ground, Emilia raised both hands to the sky and created a gigantic canopy of ice over the area where the white light was expected to strike.

Inside that canopy, she then made another slightly smaller one, and inside that, yet another smaller one. Repeating this process, six layers of icy canopy covered the sky.

And while Emilia was constructing that shield of ice and snow, Priscilla extended her smooth fingers into empty space and drew forth the “Yang Sword,” using space itself as its sheath.

It was a peerless jeweled blade, adorned with a crimson brilliance and countless dazzling ornaments. Yet the light overflowing from within it was weak, nowhere near what it would have been in perfect condition.

Even so, Priscilla took up the treasured sword and looked overhead.

In the next instant, the falling white light struck the outermost canopy directly, and in less than a single second, the first canopy, then the second, then the third were pierced through, and the light rushed toward the ground.

But to say that the pierced and shattered canopies had failed to serve their purpose at all would be wrong.

The moment the light struck and pierced through them, its angle shifted slightly.

The tiny change in the first, second, and third layers became a modest change in the fourth and fifth, and by the instant the sixth layer was broken through, the angle at which the light entered had unmistakably changed.”

We see that light in Re:Zero refracts. So to be clear, it is described as a heat ray, we have those in real life, and heat rays move at the speed of light. The alternate translation is an infrared ray, which also moves at the speed of light, but let’s look at the actual scene contextually.
Reid is doing something which is considered impossible by cutting light. Now ask yourself, if it was not literally just light, something described to lack physical form, and he’s doing it with a blunt object, what about it is impressive?

Medium and Emilia cut light, but you’ll notice they’re doing it with swords, objects which at the blade can function like mirrors if the blade is sharp enough, allowing light to be split off into two directions, yet none of them are given the same narrative significance.
The reason why what Reid is doing basically shows us that he has reached the Heavenly Sword, something which allows him to cut down objects which lack physical form simply due to raw skill.

“Man: “――My sword can cut even light, you.”

Faster than his own gruff voice’s echo, the chopsticks struck and sliced through the ray of light.

An impossible spectacle that pulled in the attention of everyone present. Only the man sneered, as if he had done something ordinary, and continued jabbing at Julius with his free hand.”

This same impossible framing is only ever given to the Ten Swords of Power when they cut light, but moving on to the other attempted refutations now that we have established they act like light, move in a straight line, reflect, refract, only cause damage through burning, and are called light, see quotes above, and furthermore, it’s stated that calling Balleroy’s light bullets “light” isn’t an exaggeration, showing that they are indeed just light beams at light speed.

“光の表現に偽りなく、死をもたらす一撃は矢よりも速くアベルを狙った。

元々、アベルは武闘派ではない。

そこへ直前の出来事の衝撃が抜けていなければ、視界の端を刹那だけ掠めた白い光に反応することなどおよそ不可能だった。

故に、この瞬間のアベルの命を救ったのは、アベル自身の判断ではなかった。

「――――」

アベルが光に貫かれ、正面から心臓を破壊される寸前だ。”
—
“There was no exaggeration in calling it light; the death-dealing strike shot toward Abel faster than an arrow.

Abel was not, to begin with, a fighting man.

And if the shock of what had just happened had not yet left him, then reacting to the white light that merely skimmed the edge of his vision for a fleeting instant would have been all but impossible.

Therefore, what saved Abel’s life at that moment was not a decision he made himself.

“――――””

It happened at the very instant before Abel was to be pierced by that light and have his heart destroyed from the front.

“B-But Cecilus is lightning speed”
Wrong, this argument sucks, and I thought I already put it in the dirt but unfortunately, it seems as though people refuse to actually put the argument in the dirt.

Firstly, every single time Cecilus is described to be lightning speed, the phrase 雷速 is always used, and what does this mean?

There are two interpretations:
1. Cecilus is literally just lightning speed.
2. Cecilus is moving in a manner which is absurdly fast, instant-looking, and impossible to track.

Lightning itself is something which has drastically varying speeds. The stepped leader moves at 200,000 mph, however, the return stroke moves at 200 million miles per hour, which means that someone could be moving literally a thousand times faster than someone else, and the phrase lightning speed would still stick.

Because of that vague phrasing, lightning speed in that format is one which does not actually hard cap you anywhere, and nor is it used literally in many cases, and if you don’t believe what I am saying, let’s go to the Japanese Stack Exchange:

Even so, it remains merely a “recurring neologism”. Even in creative fields, 雷速 is not recognized as an established term. It is probably not included in fantasy or military glossaries, let alone general-purpose dictionaries or encyclopedias.
It’s not a physics term because, unlike the speed of light 光速 or sound 音速, 雷速 does not refer to a fixed physical constant. The light and sound emitted by lightning propagate at the speed of light and sound, respectively. However, the speed at which the lightning channel itself extends is only several hundred times faster than the speed of sound. This speed varies greatly depending on atmospheric conditions. Since it is not a quantity with general significance in physics, few people other than meteorologists have much reason to concern themselves with it.

So then you may ask yourself, what exactly is the reason why they are describing Cecilus this way, and the answer is quite simple when you actually choose to take a look at Cecilus’s character beyond the lens of powerscaling.

Cecilus is someone who is explicitly given the term “Blue Lightning,” creates a lightning effect like Reinhard when he runs, and is someone who, as is stated in Sword Identity, lives his life like lightning.

“Cecilus: “It’s extremely surprising that you want to know something about me, Anya, so when you said that I was astonished. If I’m not mistaken, this is the first time since we were kids, isn’t it?”

Arakiya: “. After all, even if I didn’t ask, you would talk as you pleased.”

Cecilus: “Indeed. I would have already told you about plenty of stuff such as the food I like, or my beliefs, or my resolve as the leading actor, but now you ask for what purpose I fight. Ha-ha-ha.”

Arakiya: “Will you not answer?”

Cecilus: “No, I’ll answer. It’s because I aspire for the Heavenly Sword.”

Cecilus responded quietly, and with tranquility harbored in his eyes, he gave off an impression completely different to the person who was usually two or three times more noisy.

Every once in a while, the man called Cecilus Segmunt would display a face like this.

Hard to decipher, just like lightning which had no true form, a disposition which one’s eyes could not keep up with.
To be Cecilus, and to be the Blue Lightning, means to be the fastest, and it also means to live your life aspiring to a goal which nobody else can reach, even if it means abandoning your identity.”

When they say Cecilus is lightning speed, what is being spoken of is his philosophy, the way he lives his life.
This is why Cecilus when he is in his child form “approaches lightning speed,” despite being far faster than he was only a few moments before, which was stated to be lightning speed, because it is not a strict speed statement, it’s meant to be analogical.

Just ask yourself this, what exactly does this quote mean to you.

Arc 7 Ch. 70
“「本気でどうぞ。――あなたはいつも、目玉焼きを半分しか焼かない」

「――ッ」

「あれ？　今なんか出ましたね？」

反射的に口をついて出た一声、それを自分で不思議がりながらセシルスは首を傾げる。

ただ、それはますます彼女の怒りを買う結果になったらしい。

「――――」

猛然と、噴き上がる青い炎が島の下層を焼いていく。

周囲を顧みる余地もなく、セシルスは自らも『青い雷光』と化して炎へ飛び込んでいった。”
Or in English
“Cecilus cocked his head, wondering about the words that had left his mouth as if by reflex.

Albeit, it seemed that had spurred her ire further.

Arakiya: [――――]

Furiously, the sprouting blue flames proceeded to incinerate the lower stratum of the island as they rose.

Devoid of the leisure to concern himself with his surroundings, as he plunged into the inferno, Cecilus himself became Blue Lightning.”

Finally, we have the quite blatant feats which contradict it, which is Priscilla literally cutting down lightning using the Yang Sword. And it says Arakiya wields the power of all things composing the world, which would include lightning, and if she really were shooting lightning, this should blitz Priscilla like Cecilus would.

“「姫様」

そう短く呟いて、アラキアの全身から文字通りの力が溢れ出る。

炎でも水でも、風でも土でも、光でも影でも、この世界を構成するあらゆるモノの力を用いる千変万化の存在は、己へと迫るプリシラに全霊を注いでいる。

それを、プリシラは他ならぬ自らの身で、剣で受けて立つと、そう態度で示すように吶喊していき、降り注ぐ水流と稲光が彼女に殺到し――、

「――愛しなんし」

刹那、プリシラの振り上げた『陽剣』、それと真っ向から激突するはずだった水と雷、二つの攻撃が掻き消えた。――否、煙のように消えたのではない。

紛れもなく、『陽剣』の斬撃によってそれらは斬り払われたのだ。

ただし、紅の宝剣が描いた剣閃は、それまでよりもさらに洗練された神速だった。

「これは……」

わずかに、意表を突かれた呼気を声音に乗せ、プリシラが形のいい眉を顰める。

その彼女へと、続けざまに赤く色づく炎の風が四方から迫る。が、その灼熱の風をプリシラは躊躇なく、斬撃によって斬り払い、容易く薙ぎ払った。

そうして確かめるように宝剣を握り直し、プリシラの手がそっと自分の顔へ触れる。その指先が目元をそっと撫でるが、異変を感じ取ることはできなかっただろう。

ヨルナは知っている。それが、物理的な影響を伴う炎とは異なるものであると。

――その、ヨルナの愛し子への愛情が形となった、瞳を燃やす絆の炎は。”

Or in English;

““Princess.”

Murmuring that one word briefly, Arakiya’s entire body quite literally overflowed with power. Whether flame or water, wind or earth, light or shadow, that ever-changing being who wielded the power of all things composing this world poured the whole of her strength into Priscilla. Priscilla, for her part, charged straight in, as if to make clear by her very posture that she would meet it with nothing but her own body and sword; and the falling torrents of water and flashes of lightning rushed upon her—

“My beloved.”

In the next instant, the Yang Sword that Priscilla had raised high, and the two attacks of water and lightning that should have collided head-on with it, vanished. No—not as if they had dissolved like smoke. Beyond doubt, they had been cut away by a slash of the Yang Sword. However, the crimson treasured sword’s arc of light was an even more refined godlike speed than before.

“What is this…?”

A breath of slight surprise entered her voice, and Priscilla knit her well-shaped brows. Then, without pause, winds of flame dyed red closed in on her from all sides. Yet Priscilla, without the slightest hesitation, cut through that scorching wind with her slash and easily swept it away.

Then, as if confirming something, she tightened her grip on the treasured sword, and her hand slowly rose to touch her own face. Her fingertips lightly brushed the area around her eyes, though she likely could not have detected the change.

Yorna knew. She knew that this was something different from fire accompanied by physical effects.

For that was the flame of bonds that burned the eyes: the love Yorna bore for her beloved child given form.”

But it doesn’t, because Re:Zero characters are obviously faster than lightning speed.

“But Reinhard cannot outrun lightning”
Firstly, here is Reinhard, with a broken sword, while fighting near his allies meaning he cannot go full power, without the intent to kill, oneshotting and moving faster than Cecilus who is stated to be faster than lightning, so let’s just put that in the dirt:

““…!”

That single exchange was enough to convey Reinhard’s unparalleled strength. Eyes shining, Cecilus disappeared again. He went as fast as his namesake, then even faster. Multiple images of the man in the blue kimono began to appear until it seemed as though Reinhard was against an army of a hundred. It was beyond anything Julius’s defensive reflexes might have been able to respond to. This surely must have been Cecilus’s last resort.

But if Cecilus at his greatest seemed superhuman, then so did Reinhard. The Sword Saint didn’t give an inch of ground, parrying the encroaching attacks with nothing but the hiltless blade of his opponent’s own broken weapon. Reinhard deflected, swept away, and guarded against every strike. With only half a sword, one he had to hold with the tips of his fingers to not cut himself, Reinhard was defending against what was essentially an enchanted sword. Such power was truly something from the realm of nightmares. And if that was how Julius saw it, then how much more did the enemy, the Divine General, think of it?

Yet even in the face of such fearsome strength…

“Think you can keep up with this?!” Cecilus unleashed a devastating crosswise cut, but there was a tremble in his voice now. Every mode of attack he had tried had been thoroughly rebuked. Maybe it was amazement or even fear; either would have been appropriate when confronting Reinhard.

But in fact, the quiver in his voice was not from any excess of emotion. It was from facing this thing head-on…

“More…”

“I believe it’s about time I counterattack,” Reinhard said.

Cecilus licked his lips and tensed his waist as he prepared to move even faster. It was only an instant, the blink of an eye in the midst of a thunderstorm, but it wasn’t lost on Reinhard. Swiftly, he drew an arc with one long leg, targeting Cecilus’s slim body. His kick sliced through the air with not only beauty, but enough power to split a tree in half with a single blow.

In a battle of swords, the deliberate choice to use a kick sent a very clear message, and it was right to do so—but to choose it during such a clash of titans was tantamount to foolishness.

“Leaving your dear sword sheathed is going to cost you your life!” Cecilus exclaimed. Reinhard had left the Dragon Sword at his hip, and now Cecilus’s strike came rushing at him. It was a slash designed to catch the incoming kick; even Reinhard couldn’t win in a battle of blade against leg. Consequently, he chose to twist his waist and hip, changing the angle of his strike in midair.

“Wha—?!” With a crack like a whip, the foot that had been coming for his chest was suddenly aimed at Cecilus’s delicate neck.

“…!” The impact robbed the Divine General of consciousness, and the man’s eyes rolled back in his head for a moment. The swordsman fell to the ground like a puppet with cut strings.”

So uh…so much for Reinhard being unable to react to lightning speed.
The lightning which Al uses against Reinhard is one which is stated to remind him of Cecilus when they fought in Vollachia, meaning that it is also moving faster than lightning, and we know people can amplify their spells to be faster than they are initially because we literally see Shaula do it.

“And they would have to fight back before the next one arrived――

Subaru: “The light――”

As if it could read Subaru’s actions, the next strike of light was even faster.

Thus far, the speed, power and frequency were obviously meant to finish off Subaru. Naturally, with Subaru’s paper-thin defense, only one direct hit would be enough to send him to the other side. And so――

Emilia: “Stop―― Hk!”

A vortex of magical power was deployed in multiple manners in front of Subaru, creating walls of ice standing on the sand ground. This time, the defense was not limited to only one wall; instead, six sheets of ice walls had been conjured at the same time.”

But it takes Reinhard minutes to come back from the moon:

“Q.56 By Alcor. What’s the fastest speed Reinhard can reach?

A: I think at least up to the speed of sound. He can probably go faster than that. He is accused by Subaru of going to the moon, kicking off the surface and coming back, so it’s the speed of going to the moon and coming back in minutes like during the fight.”

The process of going and coming takes minutes.

Regulus throws him at a constant speed, where he is stuck like that for 5 seconds. Presumably Reinhard lost the ability to control himself on the way up there to come back, meaning that the speed in which he went up might be the majority of the amount of time it took for him to get up there rather than him going back down.

Furthermore…we just don’t know the distance between the moon and earth, as Tappei said, he wasn’t thinking of specifics, it could be closer or further, who knows. And finally, it’s one of Reinhard’s major lore secrets about what he was doing up there and what he had seen, so it’s obvious that he didn’t immediately attempt to return.
—

Some of these other debunks confuse exceeding sound for being in the sonic ranges, when that isn’t true. Being faster than sound just is a statement that sets a baseline rather than a hard cap, which is why we also know that people like Pig King move faster than sound yet are not comparable to Sirius in any way shape or form.
—
Subaru also makes a statement that his whip moves faster than sound and wouldn’t lose in speed to any superhuman, but then what the OP conveniently ignored were the statements from Emilia in Arc 6 where she said she could catch Subaru’s whip barehanded:

Arc 6 Ch. 84
“Attempting to mow down those ice warriors all at once, yet again the tail of the 『Divine Dragon』 deserted sound behind. Though similar to the whip Subaru used in arrangement, its pace and might was in an entirely different league.

Had it been Subaru’s whip then Emilia could’ve caught it bare handed, but that would be impossible for the dragon’s tail whip.

And we have Sirius literally easy diffing the whip from behind her back while off guard:

At this rate, the whip would reach the defenseless back of his target, wrapping around her neck and giving him a chance to hurl her down the—

“Why are you so angry?”

Right as he thought his attack would connect, his target suddenly posed a question, back still facing him.

Almost simultaneously, the silhouette swung her hand without even turning around. With incredible speed and accuracy, the chain that was wrapped around that hand collided with Subaru’s whip, robbing it of all momentum and knocking it down.

Subaru’s eyes shot open, but the moment he felt his whip make contact with the chain, he yanked his arm back hard.

“Oh my.”

The hook hanging from the chain’s end had gotten tangled with Subaru’s whip, giving him a chance to throw Sirius off-balance. Subaru followed up quickly with a ferocious charge, ramming her with his shoulder.

“Uraaaaah!”

“Wah!””

Furthermore, the same really shitty booty refutation is being used where they try and argue that Subaru’s whip is overall faster than Tiga and Beatrice, but forget to mention that Beatrice is low on mana due to literally just using E.M.T beforehand, which is a spell that drains so much mana it can only be used again, and Tiga is being given no opportunity to counter attack due to Crusch pressuring him:

Arc 10 Ch. 14:
“The initiation of his onslaught thwarted, a sword thrust into a gap in his combination attack, and prevented from acting as he wished, agitation showed on Tiga’s heretofore unflappable face as he narrowly managed to resist.

However, even if he were to devote himself to defense, he could not escape unscathed. Blood ran from his shoulder, his thigh, and finally from a single cut upon his cheek crimson flowed, those trails of trickling blood attesting to his struggle.”

Julius Al Clauseria
Firstly, the OP tries to argue that it doesn’t say light speed, it says the speed of polar light or the aurora. Issue is, that there are only two meanings for this. Either you are speaking of the light given off by the aurora, or you are speaking of the solar wind.

Al Clauseria shoots a beam of light, not solar wind or anything of the sort.
Secondly, the OP gives a dishonest reading. Carillion notices that a spell is about to be fired, and instinctively throws Balleroy off before it is about to hit him, it flies faster than sound and tries flapping its wings, but it immediately gets overwhelmed.
This is a precognition feat for Carillion, rather than a speed feat.
—

Furthermore:

「――インフィニティッド・ヘルズ・スナイプ！！」

「何それ、カッコいい！！」

シャウラが技名を叫んだ瞬間、白い砲門が眩く輝いた。

直後のスバルの戯言を塗り潰して、次々と砂丘の空にガラスの砕けるような音が響く。それと同時に砲門は形を失い、ほどけるようにして大気に溶けた。

これが、先ほどバルコニーへ出た瞬間にスバルたちを出迎えてくれた軽やかな音の正体だ。そして、それをシャウラが奏でる目的は一つ。

一発限りの砲撃が放たれ、白光がまさしく光のような速度で地上へ迫る。
In English
“――Infinitied Hell’s Snipe!!”

“What’s that? That sounds so cool!!”

The instant Shaula shouted the name of her technique, the white gunports shone brilliantly.

In the next moment, drowning out Subaru’s nonsense, sounds like shattering glass rang out one after another across the sky of the sand dunes. At the same time, the gunports lost their form and, as if unraveling, dissolved into the atmosphere.

This was the true identity of the light, crisp sound that had greeted Subaru and the others the moment they stepped out onto the balcony earlier. And there was only one purpose for which Shaula played it.

A one-shot bombardment was fired, and the white light rushed toward the ground at a speed exactly like light.

A casual Shaula shoots beams at speeds exactly like light, or at the same speed as light, and as noted before, she can make them faster.

EXTRA:
Subaru also should not be taken as a credible source for how fast attacks are and how he compares to other characters in the series, because we know canonically that the stronger you are, the more you hide your strength, and even for people like Reinhard, who has overwhelming strength, this is true, meaning that how Subaru thinks he compares to the other people within the series is faulty and shaky at best unless you can establish that he is comparable to them:

Arc 5 Chapter 29:
“Therefore, in front of the man who famously stood at the apex of strength, Garfiel could not hold back his restless teeth and claws.

He had gone to Subaru and received permission to challenge Reinhard. The Sword Saint seemed a far cry from the Strongest——he gave off the impression of being a meek, kind man with no martial prowess. He looked like he could be broken like a twig, with just one hand.

However, Garfiel knew that the stronger someone was, the better they were at hiding their strength. Setting aside his own tendency to act up, the majority of powerful people did not look strong as they went through their daily activities. Roswaal and Subaru were like that.”

We see this narrative of strong people hiding their strength is extremely consistent: often, to Subaru, THESE superhumans seem like normal people, and even to Garfiel, who should be superior to them, this is true.

Arc 5 Chapter 31:
“It was plain to see that the enemy’s strength far transcended the human realm. They were clearly superior to that female murder machine with whom Garfiel had once fought.

Garfiel: [Only two people…?]

No other shadows lurked around.

The only guards were the two before him. They had masked their existence from Garfiel up until now, so there were no other potential presences. Those with strength had already chosen to stop hiding themselves.”

And we see with both Garfiel and Subaru that the stronger you become, the more you can sense the strength of your opponent, which is why, from Garfiel’s perspective, Reinhard’s strength is becoming more and more unfathomable. On this basis as well, you cannot claim that statements from Al’s perspective would also be valid unless the same comparability is shown, especially considering that in the same fight, Al in Volcanica and Al in his human form differ in their opinions of his strength.

Arc 10 Chapter 4

“Off to the side from their reunion, Garfiel was silently casting his sharp, emerald-green eyes towards Reinhard. Basking in his gaze, Reinhard softly narrowed his own blue eyes, and,

Reinhard: [You have gotten quite a bit stronger since the last time we met. In such a short time at that, it is an incredible feat.]

Garfiel: [Tch, you’re sayin’ that so lightly. Even tho’ for me, it was a matter of levelin’ up after bein’ thrust to the brink of dyin’ countless times, the depth of yer strength keeps gettin’ more ‘n more unfathomable.]”

Aside from that, you confuse people moving faster than sound and moving in the hypersonic-supersonic ranges, when in fiction the gap is far…far larger. Moving faster than sound in fiction can be defined from Mach 1 to MFTL+; all these statements apply to Elsa, Sirius, etc. Do not do anything except set them at the baseline faster than sound, where they can obviously be upscaled far higher.

The Yae statement saying that her fastest attack is rivalling sound is either A, contradicted because she should be comparable to Sirius, who easily reacts to Subaru’s whip, which is faster than sound, or B, which is the more rational explanation…her attack speed doesn’t scale to her overall combat speed.

The reason Yae is dangerous is because of the speed of her reaction, evasion, and ability to nullify force through her threads. Offensively, her attacks are dangerous due to their ridiculous sharpness and the fact that they are invisible, which is why we see Yae, in the quote you sent, use flames to blind Rem’s vision before she attacks her, which is combined with the thread's natural thinness, making them hard to track.

In other words, their speed is never stated to be a threat, but the fact that they are invisible is, meaning they could be virtually anywhere.

““Kissing her rings, the steel threads were once again swallowed by flames. In that instant, Yae covered Rem’s field of vision with fire, aimed at the neck of the enemy on the other side of the heat wave, and swept her drawn-back arm in a flash――with a blow that released the steel thread at a speed approaching sound, she aimed to behead her.”

It was one of Yae’s original techniques, not found in any secret manual; the fastest single flash among the Steel Thread Techniques Yae could use. In Al’s terms, it would be what one called a “special move.” She had confidence that this invisible thread strike of unknown range, becoming a flash of certain death, could slaughter any opponent. ――And yet, Rem dodged it. Not just once, but twice.”

For things like this, you just need to think logically; it's drastically more expected under the hypothesis that the beams of light, which match nearly every property of natural light, are light speed compared to the fact that it just happens to resemble it and not be the same thing, and we can give adequate explanations which explain the rest of the data.

TLDR:
Cecilus statement = Purely symbolic, which is why he can turn into Blue Lightning + Language used is not often used literally

Reinhard's statement = Lightning used scales to Cecilus, who is stated to be faster than lightning and has a multitude of feats suggesting he is far faster than lightning, including Priscilla cutting lightning

Jiwald = Has a massive preponderance of evidence, including its description as a heat/infrared ray, supporting it moving at the speed of light

Subaru’s statement: = Cannot properly gauge strength due to being extremely weak; feats suggest that he cannot keep up with other opponents unless they are already in unfavourable spots (Tiga), nerfed (Beatrice). Whereas against most mid tiers like Emilia, it isn’t even a threat.

“Only supersonic” = Dishonest reading, the statement can only be used as a hard cap if they didn’t have better feats to suggest that they were higher, which they do.

Yae's statement = Her attacks focus on redirection, catching her opponent off guard rather than sheer attack speed, which is why every time she does that speed of sound attack, she
first has to make sure her opponent is off guard.

 

[Lilybitdun]

thanks for formatting your post

 

[MrTayman616]

Debunk 1 — Jiwald is not light speed

Jiwald is an application of yang magic, creates heat rays that move in a straight line and travel at the speed of light. They're been called a beam of light several times, they reflect like normal light and they're heat rays. Conclusion: Fulfills most of our Laser/Light Beam standards.

直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点――しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる。

This isn't a statement of light speed but just an exaggeration of it's speed, just a way to say so fast. This isn't an actual comparison to light speed.

Now, does it matter as it still fulfills several Laser/Light standards? Yes, it matters a lot because it's not consistent with any other statement or feat at all.

You're under the misconception that what i'm arguing is that it has no light properties nor isn't a light or anything, which i'm not.

You didn't bring anything new to the thread in this section, those are overall already mentioned at the start of the thread. Like it being called beam of light, heat ray, reflection etc etc.

Also, you must give your source of translations.

“B-But Cecilus is lightning speed”

Wrong, this argument sucks, and I thought I already put it in the dirt but unfortunately, it seems as though people refuse to actually put the argument in the dirt.

Firstly, every single time Cecilus is described to be lightning speed, the phrase 雷速 is always used, and what does this mean?

Wdym? I checked your comments, this is your first time in a Re:Zero thread...

This argument doesn't suck, because it is literally the case. He was quite literally compared to a real lightning's speed while Aldebaran creates a lightning from a cloud. Same lightning cloud that this version of Reinhard scales under. (The author also said that Cecilus is as fast as lightning in an interview)

Mid tiers absolutely doesn't scale, and so Jiwald.

So then you may ask yourself, what exactly is the reason why they are describing Cecilus this way, and the answer is quite simple when you actually choose to take a look at Cecilus’s character beyond the lens of powerscaling.

Cecilus is someone who is explicitly given the term “Blue Lightning,” creates a lightning effect like Reinhard when he runs, and is someone who, as is stated in Sword Identity, lives his life like lightning.

Cecilus made up that name himself :d

Cecilus does scale to lightning speed, there isn't any doubt about it. It's not only "not his speed but just his life style" or anything.

When they say Cecilus is lightning speed, what is being spoken of is his philosophy, the way he lives his life.
This is why Cecilus when he is in his child form “approaches lightning speed,” despite being far faster than he was only a few moments before, which was stated to be lightning speed, because it is not a strict speed statement, it’s meant to be analogical.

Cuz he stopped and started moving? I don't get what you mean here.

Just ask yourself this, what exactly does this quote mean to you.

First, it's chapter 75, not 70.

Second, That quote's topic is entirely different.

Finally, we have the quite blatant feats which contradict it, which is Priscilla literally cutting down lightning using the Yang Sword. And it says Arakiya wields the power of all things composing the world, which would include lightning, and if she really were shooting lightning, this should blitz Priscilla like Cecilus would.

Here. It doesn't fit for it based on just being called a lightning. It also travels along with the water beam. Statements that actually refer to the speed of lighting would also disagree(Most obviously, Reinhard's for example :d).

Btw, Priscilla was given power there by Yorna, literally at that moment. Dunno about the comparison.

“But Reinhard cannot outrun lightning”

Firstly, here is Reinhard, with a broken sword, while fighting near his allies meaning he cannot go full power, without the intent to kill, oneshotting and moving faster than Cecilus who is stated to be faster than lightning, so let’s just put that in the dirt:

I already explained that in the thread.

Even though Reinhard is at his weakest in the sand dunes and can normally combat at this speed as he's capable of fighting against Cecilus

Reinhard is at his weakest in the sand dunes, and stated to be slower than lightning speed there, twice, with actual feats showing it's true.

I'm not arguing Reinhard is absolutely slower than lighthing in terms of movement and combat regardless of where or what condition.

This section of the comment has no relation to the thread.

So uh…so much for Reinhard being unable to react to lightning speed.
The lightning which Al uses against Reinhard is one which is stated to remind him of Cecilus when they fought in Vollachia, meaning that it is also moving faster than lightning, and we know people can amplify their spells to be faster than they are initially because we literally see Shaula do it.

Cecilus Segmunt, the fastest character in the series, his speed and the speed of his swordmanship is stated to be as fast as lightning(sometimes faster) several times.

Still not adding anything new.

For the latter part, Aldebaran created a natural lightning via creating a cloud and it's literally called a true lightning and refers to it's speed. So there is no such thing here.

But it takes Reinhard minutes to come back from the moon:

The process of going and coming takes minutes.

Regulus throws him at a constant speed, where he is stuck like that for 5 seconds. Presumably Reinhard lost the ability to control himself on the way up there to come back, meaning that the speed in which he went up might be the majority of the amount of time it took for him to get up there rather than him going back down.

That's not what Tappei claims there. What he says is extremely clear.

Furthermore…we just don’t know the distance between the moon and earth, as Tappei said, he wasn’t thinking of specifics, it could be closer or further, who knows. And finally, it’s one of Reinhard’s major lore secrets about what he was doing up there and what he had seen, so it’s obvious that he didn’t immediately attempt to return.

Tappei himself refers to Reinhard's speed being on that level in a interview, which we also use it for Reinhard's calculation for moon-planet travel.

The spoiler about Reinhard saw isn't about the moon but beyond the great waterfall. They literally show us the moon in the anime while he fights Regulus as well :d

Some of these other debunks confuse exceeding sound for being in the sonic ranges, when that isn’t true. Being faster than sound just is a statement that sets a baseline rather than a hard cap, which is why we also know that people like Pig King move faster than sound yet are not comparable to Sirius in any way shape or form.

—

Faster than sound still shows relevancy.

Please show Pig King's statement.

Subaru also makes a statement that his whip moves faster than sound and wouldn’t lose in speed to any superhuman, but then what the OP conveniently ignored were the statements from Emilia in Arc 6 where she said she could catch Subaru’s whip barehanded:

You're reading it wrong, again.

Subaru doesn't say whip is superior to them or that it wouldn't lose to any superhuman, but that it even works against them. OP doesn't ignore Emilia being capable of catching the whip statement, because OP already gave statements about characters having supersonic statements. OP doesn't argue all those superhumans are below a whip or anything

She has the advantage when it comes to matching blow for blow, but my whip won’t lose in terms of speed. In speed alone, a whip even works against people on the superhuman level in this world.

And we have Sirius literally easy diffing the whip from behind her back while off guard:

Sirius uses her chains to do it, which they move at a speed exceeding sound. Also, again, the claim isn't "all superhumans are below whip's speed" or anything.

Furthermore, the same really shitty booty refutation is being used where they try and argue that Subaru’s whip is overall faster than Tiga and Beatrice, but forget to mention that Beatrice is low on mana due to literally just using E.M.T beforehand, which is a spell that drains so much mana it can only be used again, and Tiga is being given no opportunity to counter attack due to Crusch pressuring him:

Therefore――,

Subaru: [OHHHHHHHH――!!]

While Tiga and Beatrice attempted to suppress her with sword and spell respectively, the howling Subaru cracked the whip he had drawn from the rear of his waist, compelling the tip of his Guiltywhip to whistle through the air.

From the moment he had decided to employ EMT, Subaru’s aim was to subdue Crusch.

The reason he had left the battle up to Beatrice and Tiga until now, was not merely due to his disorientation and astonishment at Crusch’s transformation. It was for the sake of this one and only surprise attack.

Swifter than sword or spell, Guiltywhip’s strike approached Crusch.

Literally the line before, aka the reason why Subaru also talks about it being faster than sword and spell.

Btw. She never stopped using it. E.M.T was still active. Her mana isn't low to the point she isn't capable of keeping it active. Also, the entire point of EMT is both taking the enemy's magic, and using their(Subaru+Beatrice) own. You're talking about E.M.T being something that can be used once rather than spell as entirely. Also, she even used Minya and Shamak after she started the E.M.T there. (A chapter before)

Crusch: [I am――]

Beatrice: [――Minya.]

Whilst Subaru’s innermost heart was deluged in prayer, in the moment Crusch opened her mouth to speak, Beatrice’s hand was held aloft whilst she was carried by Subaru, and bluish-purple luminescence pierced at Crusch’s feet.

A strike of violet arrows impaling her feet crystallized the office floor, causing it to develop fissures.

Beatrice: [Refrain from heedless movement, I suppose. Even inside EMT, Betty and Subaru are the sole exception who can still use magic, in fact. Will you be able to function as our opponent in the middle of exchanging blows with that loose-lipped man, I suppose?]

I didn't say or made any claim about Tiga.

Furthermore:

A casual Shaula shoots beams at speeds exactly like light, or at the same speed as light, and as noted before, she can make them faster.

That isn't an usable light speed statement. It doesn't say speed of light, but an exaggeration of it's speed. (Something that was also talked in the wiki years ago or so iirc)

Also, source of the translation?

Julius Al Clauseria
Firstly, the OP tries to argue that it doesn’t say light speed, it says the speed of polar light or the aurora. Issue is, that there are only two meanings for this. Either you are speaking of the light given off by the aurora, or you are speaking of the solar wind.

Al Clauseria shoots a beam of light, not solar wind or anything of the sort.
Secondly, the OP gives a dishonest reading. Carillion notices that a spell is about to be fired, and instinctively throws Balleroy off before it is about to hit him, it flies faster than sound and tries flapping its wings, but it immediately gets overwhelmed.
This is a precognition feat for Carillion, rather than a speed feat.

You're misunderstanding it. Julius's attack itself is a beam of colored rainbow light style aka why it's called an aurora of rainbow. It's not light speed. (Fun fact. In WN version, it's actually called out for not being light speed lol).

Also what? Carillon literally tries to escape while it's coming. How can OP give dishonest reading when OP actually gives the scan that shows the scene and literally copy pasted that part to the thread :d.

Subaru also should not be taken as a credible source for how fast attacks are and how he compares to other characters in the series, because we know canonically that the stronger you are, the more you hide your strength, and even for people like Reinhard, who has overwhelming strength, this is true, meaning that how Subaru thinks he compares to the other people within the series is faulty and shaky at best unless you can establish that he is comparable to them:

Subaru isn't comparing anyone who's secretly hiding his power here. He already saw characters like Garfiel and Emilia at their peak. Same for Elsa as he saw her fighting Reinhard. I can name countless more.

We see this narrative of strong people hiding their strength is extremely consistent: often, to Subaru, THESE superhumans seem like normal people, and even to Garfiel, who should be superior to them, this is true.

The statement comes way after Subaru seeing them fight against the entire group. This isn't even remotely relevant.

And we see with both Garfiel and Subaru that the stronger you become, the more you can sense the strength of your opponent, which is why, from Garfiel’s perspective, Reinhard’s strength is becoming more and more unfathomable. On this basis as well, you cannot claim that statements from Al’s perspective would also be valid unless the same comparability is shown, especially considering that in the same fight, Al in Volcanica and Al in his human form differ in their opinions of his strength.

Subaru ain't making these claims based on sensing their ability or anything Aldebaran's statements are literally proven by actually trying it, and same for Aldebaran's Volcanica version as Al's sharing his memory with him there everytime he dies. Aldebaran doesn't make the claim based on "I sense him being that strong, he can't do it for sure" or anything.

Aside from that, you confuse people moving faster than sound and moving in the hypersonic-supersonic ranges, when in fiction the gap is far…far larger. Moving faster than sound in fiction can be defined from Mach 1 to MFTL+; all these statements apply to Elsa, Sirius, etc. Do not do anything except set them at the baseline faster than sound, where they can obviously be upscaled far higher.

"Exceeding speed of sound => So it's fine if it's MFTL+" type of argument. What they're referring is mostly very clear here.

The reason Yae is dangerous is because of the speed of her reaction, evasion, and ability to nullify force through her threads. Offensively, her attacks are dangerous due to their ridiculous sharpness and the fact that they are invisible, which is why we see Yae, in the quote you sent, use flames to blind Rem’s vision before she attacks her, which is combined with the thread's natural thinness, making them hard to track.

In other words, their speed is never stated to be a threat, but the fact that they are invisible is, meaning they could be virtually anywhere.

...

““Kissing her rings, the steel threads were once again swallowed by flames. In that instant, Yae covered Rem’s field of vision with fire, aimed at the neck of the enemy on the other side of the heat wave, and swept her drawn-back arm in a flash――with a blow that released the steel thread at a speed approaching sound, she aimed to behead her.”

It was one of Yae’s original techniques, not found in any secret manual; the fastest single flash among the Steel Thread Techniques Yae could use. In Al’s terms, it would be what one called a “special move.” She had confidence that this invisible thread strike of unknown range, becoming a flash of certain death, could slaughter any opponent. ――And yet, Rem dodged it. Not just once, but twice.”

Her main weapon is the threads. It doesn't mean something like "This is so dangerous because it's not visible, oh it also moves at a low speed like speed of sound btw"

Literally her fastest technique, and the ultimate technique. She can't even use her threads in combat normally if they're that much slower than her. She wouldn't even be hitting someone. At best, others would be accidently killing themselves because of interacting with her threads, by mistake.

It wouldn't be a flash of certain death if it wasn't considered fast either.

And also, that's wrong. That technique she used there is iaido and relies on speed, not invisibility of the threads. Yae used that more than once, both of them are after the time she saw that Emilia and Rem both were capable of fighting against her invisible threads. She relies on the speed of it, of it being a flash of death.

She even changes her aim from head to chest so it won't dodged by the retraction of the head.

That was one of Yae’s original techniques that could not be found written down anywhere in a book of secrets, and was the fastest brandish possible amidst the Steel Thread Technique employed by Yae; something that Al might have called an “ultimate move”. She had confidence that this invisible thread attack of undiscernible range, a flash of absolute death, could vanquish any opponent. ――And yet, Rem had avoided it.

And that was not just once, but twice.

Yae: [――Hk.]

In its initial reveal, it had been an attack that had aimed to take out both Rem and Emilia at once.

Since that had been averted, this time, she aimed not just for the neck, but for the chest, unleashing the single flash so that it could not be dodged by the retraction of the head. It sliced through the wind as if to proclaim that it would not allow any fluke evasions―― hence, the fact that Rem managed to avoid it was no miracle or fortuity. It was inevitable.

So yeah, extremely clearly refers to the to the speed.

For things like this, you just need to think logically; it's drastically more expected under the hypothesis that the beams of light, which match nearly every property of natural light, are light speed compared to the fact that it just happens to resemble it and not be the same thing, and we can give adequate explanations which explain the rest of the data.

Does this imply i'm not thinking logically or am i reading too much into it? :d

 

[Fezzih_007]

Wdym? I checked your comments, this is your first time in a Re:Zero thread...

Probally offsite.

I think he's a person I saw on Reddit who powerscale Re:ZERO sometimes, his arms about light speed are kinda similar to this post. I could be wrong.

 

[MasterOwOgay]

I disagree with the proposed downgrade. In my opinion, Jiwald should remain classified as light speed. Having read the novels, I find it difficult to view it any other way, as the ability is consistently portrayed in a manner that supports that interpretation. This is not simply a matter of taking a single statement at face value; the surrounding context, narrative presentation, and overall portrayal all point toward Jiwald being treated as an actual beam of light. At no point did I get the impression that readers were intended to interpret it as a conventional projectile or some slower analogue.

That being said, I do understand why there is disagreement regarding how the mid-tiers should scale from these feats. The scaling chain is not entirely straightforward, and Re:Zero has always been a series where power and speed portrayals can become difficult to reconcile into a perfectly consistent hierarchy. Because of this, I believe a "possibly" or "likely" rating for the relevant mid-tiers would be a reasonable solution that acknowledges the uncertainty while still respecting the evidence supporting higher-end interpretations.

More importantly, I do not think this is an issue where a completely objective answer can be reached. Tappei's handling of scaling, particularly speed scaling, has often been inconsistent and leaves room for multiple valid interpretations. Trying to force a definitive conclusion in a situation where the source material itself is not entirely definitive seems unnecessary to me. If anything, the existence of substantial arguments on both sides is precisely why a degree of uncertainty should be reflected in the ratings rather than resolved through a blanket downgrade.

While I can understand the skepticism surrounding certain scaling chains, I do not believe the evidence presented is sufficient to justify removing the light-speed interpretation of Jiwald altogether. At most, I think it justifies a more cautious approach toward how far that feat should scale throughout the verse.

 

[MrTayman616]

I disagree with the proposed downgrade. In my opinion, Jiwald should remain classified as light speed. Having read the novels, I find it difficult to view it any other way, as the ability is consistently portrayed in a manner that supports that interpretation. This is not simply a matter of taking a single statement at face value; the surrounding context, narrative presentation, and overall portrayal all point toward Jiwald being treated as an actual beam of light. At no point did I get the impression that readers were intended to interpret it as a conventional projectile or some slower analogue.

Having read the novels, i find Jiwald being LS impossible. Never have i thought that it was light speed. :d

Literally all i got was:

The surrounding context, narrative presentation, overall portrayal = Jiwald is a fast Yang Magic.

Overall surrounding context, narrative presentation, overall portrayal = Supersonic Speed - Lightning Speed characters.

I believe everything i already wrote in the thread would make that very clear.

Also what? It's not presented as light speed narrativety. If you refer to it having several light properties, that isn't "narrative support" for light speed but from our standards.

Now, does it matter as it still fulfills several Laser/Light standards? Yes, it matters a lot because it's not consistent with any other statement or feat at all.

That being said, I do understand why there is disagreement regarding how the mid-tiers should scale from these feats. The scaling chain is not entirely straightforward, and Re:Zero has always been a series where power and speed portrayals can become difficult to reconcile into a perfectly consistent hierarchy. Because of this, I believe a "possibly" or "likely" rating for the relevant mid-tiers would be a reasonable solution that acknowledges the uncertainty while still respecting the evidence supporting higher-end interpretations.

The statements for sound and lightning speed are extremely consistent and clear.

Jiwald removes most of the consistenty of speed statements if you claim it to be light speed. Even feats that include Jiwald causes problems.

Hell Snipe and Jiwald have comparable speed as shown here. In Arc 6 Gluttony What If, Reinhard moves at equal speed to the Hell Snipe that was directed to the direction Felt was hiding. He moved seemingly hundreds of meters to kilometers along with it.
Reinhard is stated to be slower than Cecilus Segmunt who moves at lightning speed, he cannot follow it in terms of movement speed if it was moving at that speed. Also, it takes him more than several minutes to reach the planet from moon.

Not just statement, but feat wise as well. None of the feats in the series is remotely comparable.

There isn't any actual light speed statement, same for it not being consistest.

More importantly, I do not think this is an issue where a completely objective answer can be reached. Tappei's handling of scaling, particularly speed scaling, has often been inconsistent and leaves room for multiple valid interpretations. Trying to force a definitive conclusion in a situation where the source material itself is not entirely definitive seems unnecessary to me. If anything, the existence of substantial arguments on both sides is precisely why a degree of uncertainty should be reflected in the ratings rather than resolved through a blanket downgrade.

Wdym? Sound-Lightning statements are consistent. There isn't any light speed statement, or any case of feat&statement supporting it. There are even speed capping statements based on the fastest character in the series.

And Reinhard vs Aldebaran made this even clearer.

While I can understand the skepticism surrounding certain scaling chains, I do not believe the evidence presented is sufficient to justify removing the light-speed interpretation of Jiwald altogether. At most, I think it justifies a more cautious approach toward how far that feat should scale throughout the verse.

This doesn't make any sense.

This just goes to "Let's ignore an entire arc of feats so we can say Jiwald is light speed, only when it comes to top tiers" or that type of absurd result. Definitely not acceptable, it just becomes nitpicking for better ratings that aren't consistent or supported.

Jiwald, narratively, statement wise, and based on the shown feats, isn't supported to be light speed by any means. I could understand an argument for it if they were even one single relativistic character that got imitiated by it, or simply one other feat in the series being on that level. Or basically any other statement relative to it etc. But there is just nothing at all.

Everything contradicts it to an extreme extent. All it has is fulfilling several laser/light standards of ours, but they're not used to the point it goes beyond actual statements and feats of this extent. And considering Jiwald itself is Yang Magic, it having some light properties, or being light, isn't anything insane.

 

[Worthless]

People put too much faith in the "it behaves like one, therefore it's real" nowadays, when it could just as well be the author doing that for the sake of realism without intending for it to literally be real within the setting. To begin with, they are merely supporting evidence not absolute proof

 

[Godslayermeli]

“You're under the misconception that what i'm arguing is that it has no light properties nor isn't a light or anything, which i'm not.
You didn't bring anything new to the thread in this section, those are overall already mentioned at the start of the thread. Like it being called beam of light, heat ray, reflection etc etc.”

If you grant all of these things then self admittedly there is a massive abductive case against your own argument, where you would need to special plead for a specific property of the light being far different and drastically out of the norm with the rest of its properties therefore making it not the speed of light which you would need to demonstrate

“Wdym? I checked your comments, this is your first time in a Re:Zero thread...

This argument doesn't suck, because it is literally the case. He was quite literally compared to a real lightning's speed while Aldebaran creates a lightning from a cloud. Same lightning cloud that this version of Reinhard scales under. (The author also said that Cecilus is as fast as lightning in an interview)”

This argument falls flat on its head immediately when I ask you to prove that just because an element is created naturally, it must cap at that speed when as I detailed in my original post we know you can amplify their speeds with mana. It being made of lightning and conjured naturally just sets the baseline at the slowest speed Lightning can possibly be, it does not set any upper limit when we know spells do not abide by it. Furthermore I already gave you the argument as to why Cecilus being compared to this Lightning would entail the Lightning is faster than any naturally occurring Lightning, rather than the other way around.

You also asked me to give you the source for my translations but I don’t particularly need to do that, the reason why I brought the raws with my translation is so you can go and translate it yourself at any moment you wish to.

Furthermore you said “Cecilus made up that name himself,” as a response, but this doesn’t refute the argument, Cecilus is giving himself that name to describe the way he lives his life and it is expressed by the effects caused as he moves. Priscilla is described to live her life like a flame, Reinhard is also described to create flames as he moves, yet we wouldn’t say they’re the speed of flames, so that argument doesn’t work either.

Also your response literally was “Lol Cecilus is lightning speed” that isn’t even a counter argument you just repeated what you said initially.

Furthermore idk what you mean he stopped and started moving, Cecilus’ hand chops are described to be the “speed of lightning” by your metric, so not only should they be completely unavoidable for Reinhard, but also, it demonstrates that Cecilus does not take a lot of time to reach this supposed “lightning speed” so why would the language use the term approached for a speed he could casually reach at his slower forms.

Also, sending me the standard for lightning doesn’t matter, and if you read the quotes I sent you, then you would see it is described that Arakiya has the power of all things which compose the world, in other words she is someone who can become her natural element, which is why she can turn into light beams (which are supposedly not light speed) and hit people, or why she turns intangible when she turns into wind.

Your argument doesn’t even make sense “it moved at the same time as the water beam so its not lightning speed” did you not once consider that since its being used as an attack, the water is likely being amplified in speed. Also they’re never even stated to be moving at the same speed, for all we know the water could be used as a method to amplify the lightning and its electricity, so even if it misses directly it will still hit Priscilla.

Priscilla with her power amplification from Yorna still needed Yorna to take down Arakiya, Yorna in Chaosflame by herself is stated to be able to do so by herself.

Cecilus would shit on that Yorna, so what are you talking about?

Again you mentioned that you agree he is normally capable of fighting Cecilus, but what you would have to be arguing here is that Reinhard is so much weaker and slower in the sand dunes that he cannot dodge attacks from Kid Cecilus, the same one who was getting hit by Arakiya, which is not implied anywhere, and we know contextually that isn’t true since only the actual prime, adult Cecilus is noted to be faster than Reinhard rather than the kid one at the start of the arc who is noticeably weaker.

Also, you said he created natural lightning, then forgot that you can amplify and manipulate natural elements with mana, which is what Al literally does here:

“Using that gap, Al cast a spell beneath his running feet, and the rising earth became a springboard, propelling Al's body high up into the sky.

Then, Al jumped upward and transformed a stone that he had grasped into a second dao.

Compared to producing fire or water from nothing, using a pebble as a catalyst to transform it into a large sword consumed less Mana and was orders of magnitude faster in terms of transmutation speed.”

We know you can ordinarily amplify your spells speed, as Shaula does it, and the only difference between those spells and this one is that it just takes the already existing natural element. Not any difference in the relevant sense, so it’s quite clear that just because natural lightning is created, does not mean it is identical to natural lightning, and the fact that it’s compared to someone stated faster than the speed of lightning means that it cannot be natural lightning on its own.

You also failed to address or completely missed my response to you trying to use the Cecilus statements where Raisoku is used, where I explained to you in detail that Raisoku is almost never used to mean a literal speed, but instead used to mean “faster than the eye can see” or instantaneous because you had no response.

Also, dude just look at your responses “that’s not what he says lol,” Tappei says it takes him minutes to get to the moon and come down, how does he get to the moon? Because Regulus throws him, and how does he come down, because he pushed off the moons surface. Tappei explicitly says what he saw there was a spoiler, so if he has time to be seeing spoiler worthy stuff, then despite it still being imperative, the time spent on the moon could be what takes up most of the time.

You are assuming that the tappei Q&A points at your hypothesis, and giving no evidence beyond your own intuition. Saying “Tappei says his speed is on that level,” isn’t a response so I’ll put it in analogy form for you

John throws Bob to the moon, it takes Bob 7 minutes to get there, Bob sees something from the moon that he could never ordinarily see from earth, it takes him 3 minutes and 10 seconds. Bob then returns in 50 seconds. The speed in which he went up and came down is not entirely taken up by his own physical movement, if it was imperative for Reinhard to get down, he would have used his literal teleportation ability.

“Faster than sound shows relevancy,” or maybe it shows that the author is trying to set a baseline and hammer in the idea into our heads that these characters are not capped at any specific speed, and then using other supplementary feats to evidence them being far faster.

Here is the Pig King statement where the sound is delayed after the movement and the guy being hit, and his movements are fast enough to cause shockwaves

Felt barked at her knight to stop Serfis. But before he could act, the blade swiftly raced toward the skin of the man's thin neck-and then a storm surged through the room.

There was a shock wave, followed by the delayed boom of something hard hitting flesh. Felt looked up to see what had happened and was sur- prised to discover that Serfis was not lying in a pool of blood.

The man had received a punch to the face and was splayed against the wall, his eyes rolled back.

And as for the one who had knocked him out with one punch-

"-The Pig King still lives up to his name."

"If that were true, I wouldn't have let Serfis get away with something so foolish."

Despite the pigman's large frame, rivaling Rom the giant in size, he had moved with explosive speed. The Pig King looked down at his knocked-out subordinate, then slowly turned around.”

And here is Rem doing the same thing in Volume 5:

“However, the group made its decision quickly.

Instantly abandoning their dead comrade, they scattered voicelessly to evade the chain's pursuit. As if by reflex, they drew cross-like daggers from their flanks and gripped their weapons of poor taste with both hands, together keeping watch over north, south, east, and west.

The figures numbered eleven. The way they had instantly responded to a surprise attack by taking up a formation to eliminate blind spots was nothing short of commendable.

However, that mattered against only an attacker whose options were limited to two dimensions: front, back, left, and right.

"-Shii!"

Above the group, someone sprang from among the trees, her apron dress fluttering. With enough power in her legs to leave shoe marks in the trunk of a tree, her body shot forward at an angle. The girl leaped down with incredible speed, moving just a moment before her prey could detect the sound above them.”

This same Rem has a broken femur and shoulder by the way, and all of these characters having a range in terms of their speed should show you that it’s just being used to create a hard baseline rather than relevancy or the upper limit.

Subaru says and I quote:

“She has the advantage when it comes to matching blow for blow, but my whip won’t lose in terms of speed. In speed alone, a whip even works against people on the superhuman level in this world.”

And yet we see it not work every single time an opponent is on guard, me saying it won’t lose against them is just the same as me saying it’s effective, yet we see it flat out isn’t and is never effective speed wise against any of the superhumans in the world, so there’s nothing there to argue on.

Her using her chains to do it doesn’t respond to the argument, the argument isn’t “Sirius can react to it so people can’t be slower than sound,” but that speed wise it is blatantly not effective on anyone while on guard proving the narrative once more that Subaru cannot judge people’s strength properly.

You…either can’t track or can’t read and I’m starting to fear it’s both. The point of me bringing up how it can only be used once a day is to show that Beatrice’s mana supply is going to be burned through due to maintaining it, meaning that she doesn’t have nearly enough mana to use Minya and Shamak near their full speed while keeping it up, which is why using two spells at once is described as something you need two brains to do.

I was the one who made the claim about Tiga, because I was pointing out to you that contextually the reason why Subaru is faster is because Tiga doesn’t have the opportunity to properly counter attack or even attempt to respond during the context of the whip use.

Also saying “That isn't an usable light speed statement. It doesn't say speed of light, but an exaggeration of it's speed. (Something that was also talked in the wiki years ago or so iirc)”

Is a literal non response, I don’t particularly care about what people spoke about on the wiki years ago, I gave you the raws so you can go translate it yourself if you contended the translations.

The text used is

- 一発限りの砲撃が放たれ、白光がまさしく光のような速度で地上へ迫る。meaning - A single-use bombardment was released, and the white light approached the ground at a speed truly like that of light.

一発限りの = one-shot / single-use / limited to one shot
砲撃が = bombardment / cannon fire / artillery fire
放たれ = was fired / was released
白光が = white light
まさしく = truly / indeed / exactly /
光のような = like light / light-like

Also, you’re shooting yourself in the foot with your own arguments. If when a light attack is used and it’s not light speed, it’s explicitly stated to us, and we have no such thing for any other light attack, then we can conclude that the fact that the author blatantly saw it, called it light and never gave a single indication of it being slower than its natural variant shows that it just is light speed.

I can grant to you that Julius’ Al Clarista isn’t light speed, now prove that the attack he used on Carillion was the same spell? Also, Subaru has blatantly seen characters fight and not been able to gauge their full strength, literally look at Reinhard, half the time Subaru is in combat he’s getting perception blitzed by people like Felt, and he says that Elsa is stronger than Julius, when the author canonically says they are interchangeable in strength.

You would need to evidence that seeing is the same as understanding in the case of someone who is not skilled in combat, which once more you cannot do.

Again, you’re missing the point about seeing not being the same as understanding for one, and two, Al is basing it off Reinhard not dodging the attack, ignoring the fact that Reinhard doesn’t need to due to his blessings, then he uses the earlier confirmation as basis for his latter statement, which already should show you that seeing is not the same as understanding. See here:

“The temperature gradient between Fire and Water Magic was used to create thunderclouds, and by applying Wind and Earth Magic, he caused the Dragon Sword to be imbued with an electric charge. Following the principle that formed the basis for lightning rods, inescapable bolts of lightning struck Reinhard.

To escape the sheer speed of lightning, not even Reinhard was capable of such. The bolts of lightning, reminiscent of the speed of Cecilus’s swordsmanship that transcended human limits, a sight that had become all too familiar to him in the Empire, struck Reinhard chaotically.

Reinhard completely neutralized this with his Divine Protection of the Lightning Cloud, and although the lightning could not seize Reinhard, it did take hold of the Dragon Sword, causing the sword to become highly magnetized.”

He doesn’t dodge it because he doesn’t have to yet Al uses this as basis for his latter statement:

“No matter how fast Reinhard was, he could not outrun lightning.

That was a fact that Aldebaran had already learned from his previous battles.”

Also your response is just a strawman, I said at a baseline it’s faster than sound, and faster than sound has ridiculous ranges, making an assumption of these ranges without evidence of an upper limit immediately gets that argument eviscerated by Hitchens Razor, but given all the laser dodging feats, should they be light speed, that’s all the evidence needed

“Her main weapon is the threads. It doesn't mean something like "This is so dangerous because it's not visible, oh it also moves at a low speed like speed of sound btw"”

Meanwhile: She had confidence that this invisible thread strike of unknown range, becoming a flash of certain death, could slaughter any opponent.

It’s also why she never actually hits anybody by just swinging her threads at them, she hits them by luring them into places where their visibility is lowered so they can’t react to it, the reason why they specify fastest flash is because it’s speaking of her attack speed with the threads, just think slowly why exactly would the speed be a remote threat if Rem in arc 3 with a broken femur is faster than sound.

And it is a flash of certain death because it’s CALLED INVISIBLE, nowhere in the text does it say “oh it’s super fast therefore it must be a flash of certain death,” they specify its invisibility.

In the Emilia and Rem instance, they had fully lost sight of her, hence they didn’t know that the opponent was still present, only when they suddenly realise she’s still there does she use it, in other words where her opponents are overcome by shock.

 

[MrTayman616]

If you grant all of these things then self admittedly there is a massive abductive case against your own argument, where you would need to special plead for a specific property of the light being far different and drastically out of the norm with the rest of its properties therefore making it not the speed of light which you would need to demonstrate

I literally don't need to.

We don't think all light beams are light speed, nor believe those that accepted as not is something different than light. We don't think they stop being light, we don't think they're not allowed to have such traits etc etc etc.

This argument falls flat on its head immediately when I ask you to prove that just because an element is created naturally, it must cap at that speed when as I detailed in my original post we know you can amplify their speeds with mana. It being made of lightning and conjured naturally just sets the baseline at the slowest speed Lightning can possibly be, it does not set any upper limit when we know spells do not abide by it. Furthermore I already gave you the argument as to why Cecilus being compared to this Lightning would entail the Lightning is faster than any naturally occurring Lightning, rather than the other way around.

Aldebaran doesn't "create" natural lightning, he creates the clouds. He doesn't control or use magic for the lightning. He basically creates an enviroment for a true lightning to happen. So there is no amplification, not only it's not stated, the method itself is entirely different.

He also directly talks about the speed of a lighting, so this is meaningless.

We have lightning standards of that style in the wiki. Otherwise, we'd just not use lighting speed statements in the entire wiki as a whole as it isn't a definite speed.

Cecilus himself consistantly moves at that speed. Using an instance of where he goes faster is meaningless, especially when the text itself also says it's lighting speed there.

Aldebaran himself states it, compares it that way, shows it that way, later does it in a different way again.

The lighting isn't being affected by his magic, as we literally see the ENTIRE process of it happening, along with clarifying statement.

You also asked me to give you the source for my translations but I don’t particularly need to do that, the reason why I brought the raws with my translation is so you can go and translate it yourself at any moment you wish to.

You do, at least in the wiki. If you don't want to, i won't even bother and ignore it. (Sorry if it sounds rude, like i said, started from below and it's just long)

Furthermore you said “Cecilus made up that name himself,” as a response, but this doesn’t refute the argument, Cecilus is giving himself that name to describe the way he lives his life and it is expressed by the effects caused as he moves. Priscilla is described to live her life like a flame, Reinhard is also described to create flames as he moves, yet we wouldn’t say they’re the speed of flames, so that argument doesn’t work either.

I know, i just didn't even see an argument there.

You have to show that all those moments etc refer to his living style to prove it. Or some statement to prove they all refer to such etc.

The moments in scans are already clear about it. We don't claim it based on Cecilus having "lives his life like a lightning" or "creates a lighting behind him" type of thing, the same way we don't do it to Priscilla and Reinhard. So i don't get the point?

Also your response literally was “Lol Cecilus is lightning speed” that isn’t even a counter argument you just repeated what you said initially.

Because i don't need to answer it several times when i responded it a line above.

Furthermore idk what you mean he stopped and started moving, Cecilus’ hand chops are described to be the “speed of lightning” by your metric, so not only should they be completely unavoidable for Reinhard, but also, it demonstrates that Cecilus does not take a lot of time to reach this supposed “lightning speed” so why would the language use the term approached for a speed he could casually reach at his slower forms.

Your lack of reading is immense. (Again, from below :d.)

Reinhard is at his WEAKEST in the sand dunes. You're comparing it to his normal state. I literally showed it in both OP and the comment i sent.

Reinhard Van Astrea, while in the sand dunes, is stated to be unable to react to lightning speed and doesn't even compare to it. Even though Reinhard is at his weakest in the sand dunes and can normally combat at this speed as he's capable of fighting against Cecilus.

That's no way to ignore a statement that is supported by the feat, twice.

Also, sending me the standard for lightning doesn’t matter, and if you read the quotes I sent you, then you would see it is described that Arakiya has the power of all things which compose the world, in other words she is someone who can become her natural element, which is why she can turn into light beams (which are supposedly not light speed) and hit people, or why she turns intangible when she turns into wind.

Yes. Our standards are strict about it.

Same for that light state she's in, she literally can stop moving and etc. There isn't an actual comparison for it to be LS. Her power comes from absorbing spirits of that type to use those states of Magic/Mana. So, using Magic to create that, i would still disagree with the speed unless it's stated or shown as such. (I don't think we accept it either)

So, Yang Magic is more than enough for that.

Her light attacks, for example.

The twelve dancing light belts each acted independently with their own will, and drew irregular trajectories like living creatures differing from ordinary weapons.

Already destroys light/laser standards.

our argument doesn’t even make sense “it moved at the same time as the water beam so its not lightning speed” did you not once consider that since its being used as an attack, the water is likely being amplified in speed. Also they’re never even stated to be moving at the same speed, for all we know the water could be used as a method to amplify the lightning and its electricity, so even if it misses directly it will still hit Priscilla.

Tbh, that part is actually my mistake.

I sometimes write an argument like that just out of boredom, then delete it. Apparently i forgot, lol.

Cecilus would shit on that Yorna, so what are you talking about?

Again you mentioned that you agree he is normally capable of fighting Cecilus, but what you would have to be arguing here is that Reinhard is so much weaker and slower in the sand dunes that he cannot dodge attacks from Kid Cecilus, the same one who was getting hit by Arakiya, which is not implied anywhere, and we know contextually that isn’t true since only the actual prime, adult Cecilus is noted to be faster than Reinhard rather than the kid one at the start of the arc who is noticeably weaker.

Reinhard is so much weaker and slower that he can't dodge it, as literally stated in the chapter, twice, and with him getting hit again and again, with not being able to dodge.

The chapter itself is as clear as it gets. Both Adult and Kid Cecilus has similar statements of speed, idc which one you take it as. Also, It's you who'd need to prove Reinhard, at his weakest while in the sand dunes, wouldn't take hit. Even then, we literally see it happening in the character, twice.

Also, you said he created natural lightning, then forgot that you can amplify and manipulate natural elements with mana, which is what Al literally does here:

He doesn't. We LITERALLY can see the entire process in the scan.

We know you can ordinarily amplify your spells speed, as Shaula does it, and the only difference between those spells and this one is that it just takes the already existing natural element. Not any difference in the relevant sense, so it’s quite clear that just because natural lightning is created, does not mean it is identical to natural lightning, and the fact that it’s compared to someone stated faster than the speed of lightning means that it cannot be natural lightning on its own.

Shaula's method is different.

And Aldebaran doesn't "create" natural lightning, he creates the clouds. He doesn't control or use magic for lightning. He basically creates an enviroment for a true lightning to happen.

So comparing it to Shaula is absolutely worthless here.

The text is extremely clear, dunno how you can even claim that. He himself claims it's lighting speed as well, what are you even saying? These are already included in the thread clearly, you're not making an actual point here.

You also failed to address or completely missed my response to you trying to use the Cecilus statements where Raisoku is used, where I explained to you in detail that Raisoku is almost never used to mean a literal speed, but instead used to mean “faster than the eye can see” or instantaneous because you had no response.

That comes from raisoku not being a fixed value unlike light and sound speed.

It can be used for lightning's speed as a phenomenon, but you don't get an actual value as lightning speed itself is vague compared to sound/light speed. The author makes the comparsion clear here(Also about it being the landing speed of lighting), especially in Arc 9, Chapter 14, while Reinhard and Aldebaran fights. The speed of Cecilus's swordmanship, is stated to be at that level, directly compared to a true lighting speed.

So, Cecilus being lighting speed, and Reinhard in sand dunes not scaling to lighting speed is correct. Same for other characters as Reinhard still scales above them even in that state.

Also, dude just look at your responses “that’s not what he says lol,” Tappei says it takes him minutes to get to the moon and come down, how does he get to the moon? Because Regulus throws him, and how does he come down, because he pushed off the moons surface. Tappei explicitly says what he saw there was a spoiler, so if he has time to be seeing spoiler worthy stuff, then despite it still being imperative, the time spent on the moon could be what takes up most of the time.

"Tappei says it takes him minutes to get to the moon and come down"

It takes HIM that long, not "It takes Regulus to send him that long". You're the one including Regulus while he wasn't even mentioned. Tappei's comment isn't about their fight, but was to just answer "How fast is Reinhard?" in q&a.

You're just adding your own explanation there. Reinhard was in the space for minutes, he would see that regardless.

Heck, he talks about his speed here, why would he even include that. Please don't just make scenarios like that.

You are assuming that the tappei Q&A points at your hypothesis, and giving no evidence beyond your own intuition. Saying “Tappei says his speed is on that level,” isn’t a response so I’ll put it in analogy form for you

John throws Bob to the moon, it takes Bob 7 minutes to get there, Bob sees something from the moon that he could never ordinarily see from earth, it takes him 3 minutes and 10 seconds. Bob then returns in 50 seconds. The speed in which he went up and came down is not entirely taken up by his own physical movement, if it was imperative for Reinhard to get down, he would have used his literal teleportation ability.

Tappei's statement is literally only for Reinhard's movement. He doesn't include influence from other characters.

Not "Send him to moon in minutes and then see how he comes back". You're just plain wrong.

“Faster than sound shows relevancy,” or maybe it shows that the author is trying to set a baseline and hammer in the idea into our heads that these characters are not capped at any specific speed, and then using other supplementary feats to evidence them being far faster.

I'm not claiming they're capped there. It does show their relevancy, that is clear. Arguing "Faster than sound can mean MFTL+" type of argument isn't even worth getting engaged into.

Continue believeing that. (I started replying to this comment from the last section, so i got tired of answering this)

Here is the Pig King statement where the sound is delayed after the movement and the guy being hit, and his movements are fast enough to cause shockwaves

Thanks, i've been wondering about it. I'd add it to the thread as evidence had i known.

King Pig IS strong.

Rom even believed it was possible for him to defeat Aldebaran and his team by himself, while knowing Garfiel and Ezzo were defeated, yet he chooses not to be optimistic since the things Aldebaran did; using the witch and breaking the conversation mirror.

Therefore, Rom-jii put a lid over his own feelings in between blinks, and concentrated on the situationbefore his eyes.

With Doltero, the helmet bastard and his allies would be killed in the span of a single breath―― They could not take such an optimistic viewpoint. In a sense, the helmet bastard had led the Sword Saint,Divine Dragon, and Witch of Envy around by their noses, but that feat alone served not as the reason.

Rom: “…He shattered the Conversation Mirror in the possession of the mirror-keeper without anyhesitation.”

He even claims it would normally be on the same level of Sword Demon.

But, then again, the Demi-Human War had not been such a close affair that Doltero alone would have been able to make the difference between victory and defeat. Even if his name would have been recordedin the annals of history, he most likely would have been among the many who had lost their lives at the hands of the Sword Demon or that generation’s Sword Saint.

Either way, Doltero had been defeated. Did that mean the opponent was on the same level as the Sword Demon?

Yet disregards it as Aldebaran didn't have that in him.

That, was the unshakeable quality known as “renown”―― Something in which the helmet bastard was lacking.

So his statements do not contradict anything anyway. It just supports Sound Speed even more.

And here is Rem doing the same thing in Volume 5:

This same Rem has a broken femur and shoulder by the way, and all of these characters having a range in terms of their speed should show you that it’s just being used to create a hard baseline rather than relevancy or the upper limit.

That's a mistranslation from yenpress.

影の上空木々を蹴りつけてエプロンドレスが翻る。

足跡が木の幹に残るほどの脚力で、少女の体が斜めに射出される。凄まじい速度で下に跳躍した少女の動きは、音に気付いた影が上を向くより一瞬だけ早い。

Vol.5

It refers to it happening faster than the person not being able to look up after detecting the sound.

And tbh, her scaling here wouldn't make that a difference anyway. :d

Subaru says and I quote:

And yet we see it not work every single time an opponent is on guard, me saying it won’t lose against them is just the same as me saying it’s effective, yet we see it flat out isn’t and is never effective speed wise against any of the superhumans in the world, so there’s nothing there to argue on.

You're mistaking it with what you consider "Effective".

Those characters are on that speed level, Whip is effective in terms of speed because it reaches that level. Not because "Oh, the whip destroys them and solos in speed" or that "they're helpless against the whip's speed" type of thing.

You're making a claim based on your consideration of "effective" to ignore the statement.

Her using her chains to do it doesn’t respond to the argument, the argument isn’t “Sirius can react to it so people can’t be slower than sound,” but that speed wise it is blatantly not effective on anyone while on guard proving the narrative once more that Subaru cannot judge people’s strength properly.

"Sirius stops a Whip using chains that surpasses sound speed = Whip isn't effective in terms of speed, Subaru's wrong"

Literally what you're saying, it's not an accurate comparison. Nor anything good enough to remove statements like that.

Heck, Subaru claims the lines i used far after that moment happened, literally an arc later. So your argument for ignoring them is still just wrong.

You…either can’t track or can’t read and I’m starting to fear it’s both. The point of me bringing up how it can only be used once a day is to show that Beatrice’s mana supply is going to be burned through due to maintaining it, meaning that she doesn’t have nearly enough mana to use Minya and Shamak near their full speed while keeping it up, which is why using two spells at once is described as something you need two brains to do.

It is literally meaningless.

She literally used Minya and Shamak(several times) before that moment there as well. It being "it can only be used once a day" isn't a limiter for total, but for E.M.T only.

Beatrice still had enough mana to keep it active while it continued and she used spells several times in that fight. How did you even decide she's not using them at full speed at that moment? That just ignores the way E.M.T works as well.

Also, Subaru's claim refers to the entire battle, as i've shown in the previous comment.

I was the one who made the claim about Tiga, because I was pointing out to you that contextually the reason why Subaru is faster is because Tiga doesn’t have the opportunity to properly counter attack or even attempt to respond during the context of the whip use.

I know that you made the claim.

I just don't get why you pointed that out as i didn't use him as an argument. His presence doesn't affact my argument at all :d

Though even then, you're wrong. Subaru still calls it faster than sword and spell there. So that's just irrelevant regardless. (You can't take it as "Faster than not moving sword and can't be casted spell" when it doesn't refer to such things, still very clear here)

Also saying “That isn't an usable light speed statement. It doesn't say speed of light, but an exaggeration of it's speed. (Something that was also talked in the wiki years ago or so iirc)”

Is a literal non response, I don’t particularly care about what people spoke about on the wiki years ago, I gave you the raws so you can go translate it yourself if you contended the translations.

The text used is

Also, you’re shooting yourself in the foot with your own arguments. If when a light attack is used and it’s not light speed, it’s explicitly stated to us, and we have no such thing for any other light attack, then we can conclude that the fact that the author blatantly saw it, called it light and never gave a single indication of it being slower than its natural variant shows that it just is light speed.

First of all, this is only in the WN. That's removed in the LN version, so that part is not usable anyway.

Second, I'm not wrong :d.

(Also here, again. You should first get them checked from a translation helper to use them.)

I can grant to you that Julius’ Al Clarista isn’t light speed, now prove that the attack he used on Carillion was the same spell? Also, Subaru has blatantly seen characters fight and not been able to gauge their full strength, literally look at Reinhard, half the time Subaru is in combat he’s getting perception blitzed by people like Felt, and he says that Elsa is stronger than Julius, when the author canonically says they are interchangeable in strength.

You would need to evidence that seeing is the same as understanding in the case of someone who is not skilled in combat, which once more you cannot do.

Please just read the story rather than just arguing for nothing. You'd see the other pov if you did.

“Al Clauzeria!!” Judging by his friend’s wound and the location of the waver in the sky, Julius pointed his saber and leaned on the powers of his greater spirits to create a whirling vortex of magic. Six different colors joined into one beautiful rainbow. The aurora filled the sky in a whirlwind, and a multicolored labyrinth engulfed Julius’s opponent. The magic construct was a wall of light, composed of six elements, which meant it was able to repel any sort of magic that might’ve been leveled against it. It was thoroughly impregnable to physical attacks as well. It went without saying, of course, that serious harm awaited anyone who tried to hit it head-on.

The result was that a green serpent got caught in the rainbow maze and then quickly began to drop through the air.

“It manifests as a rainbow of light—no one can see what is at its end.”

The wall vanished, and at the same moment, there was a dull thump of a sky dragon hitting the ground. It was a gruesome sight; the creature’s wings were broken, and its scales were soaked with blood. Such was the product of the dragon slamming into the earth at the speed of sound. By its ragged, shallow breathing, it seemed it had just a minute left to live, perhaps less.

Subaru put Elsa in this way "Stronger than Julius, Weaker than Wilhelm, something like that"

Subaru: “Stronger than Julius, but weaker than Wilhelm-san… or thereabouts. And it pretty much goes without saying… Not an opponent I can beat even if I try really hard.”

(Only WN btw)

Them being interchangeable doesn't make this wrong, it makes Subaru's assumptions very good as it's very close to the correct scale.

Also your argument is still worthless. It's from a Subaru who was there for a month or so with no training.

Every statement i used for Subaru is when he was there for more than a year, seen them at their peak, knows their skill and being taught and trained by Clind etc etc. You're just invalidating it over nothing to make your case look better.

Again, you’re missing the point about seeing not being the same as understanding for one, and two, Al is basing it off Reinhard not dodging the attack, ignoring the fact that Reinhard doesn’t need to due to his blessings, then he uses the earlier confirmation as basis for his latter statement, which already should show you that seeing is not the same as understanding. See here:

He's not. He confirms it being the case, which we see Reinhard not being capable of it based on the attack as well.

Reinhard used his blessings, he still got grazed, then he got hit again which the best answer his divine protection gave him was to use his sword to block, which still caused him damage.

It's because he can't dodge. The scene and the fight itself is extremely clear about it. You're just making cases that aren't even shown or stated to be the case in the story.

He doesn’t dodge it because he doesn’t have to yet Al uses this as basis for his latter statement:

Wdym "he doesn't have to", he later fails from another lighting speed attack and suffers. The statements there are absurdly clear. Heck, Reinhard got damaged because of his lightning speed attacks as he couldn't dodge them.

EVEN his divine protection were trying to change it's direction yet failed. And his other divine protection was giving him advice to handle it in the best way. He still got grazed and suffered.

Also your response is just a strawman, I said at a baseline it’s faster than sound, and faster than sound has ridiculous ranges, making an assumption of these ranges without evidence of an upper limit immediately gets that argument eviscerated by Hitchens Razor, but given all the laser dodging feats, should they be light speed, that’s all the evidence needed

Huh?

That's an insane assumption. "Faster than sound can be MFTL+" type of argument isn't legit at all. Especially when those statements heavily shows it to be around sound rather than light or mftl etc.

We don't do insane assumptions of that level in the wiki.

Laser dodging standards aren't absolute, they are basically used to decide for lasers we don't have a light speed statement for. This is irrelevant when the existing speed statements, for both mid and top tiers, shows that to not be the case.

Also, i don't get that part "your response is just a strawman" :d

If you're getting that type of ranges from "Around speed of light", "Exceeding sound speed", "Faster than sound". I really can't do anything for your belief over that.

It’s also why she never actually hits anybody by just swinging her threads at them, she hits them by luring them into places where their visibility is lowered so they can’t react to it, the reason why they specify fastest flash is because it’s speaking of her attack speed with the threads, just think slowly why exactly would the speed be a remote threat if Rem in arc 3 with a broken femur is faster than sound.

And it is a flash of certain death because it’s CALLED INVISIBLE, nowhere in the text does it say “oh it’s super fast therefore it must be a flash of certain death,” they specify its invisibility.

In the Emilia and Rem instance, they had fully lost sight of her, hence they didn’t know that the opponent was still present, only when they suddenly realise she’s still there does she use it, in other words where her opponents are overcome by shock.

Already explained the first part above.

For the latter, SHE KNOWS THEY CAN SEE IT. It talks about her previous believes, literally the next line states that. Aka the reason why she changes her aim from the head to chest.

It's not a flash of death because it's invisible but because it's fast. The text is extremely clear about it. This happens after she realizes both can see them.

That was one of Yae’s original techniques that could not be found written down anywhere in a book of secrets, and was the fastest brandish possible amidst the Steel Thread Technique employed by Yae; something that Al might have called an “ultimate move”. She had confidence that this invisible thread attack of undiscernible range, a flash of absolute death, could vanquish any opponent. ――And yet, Rem had avoided it.

And that was not just once, but twice.

Yae: [――Hk.]

In its initial reveal, it had been an attack that had aimed to take out both Rem and Emilia at once.

Since that had been averted, this time, she aimed not just for the neck, but for the chest, unleashing the single flash so that it could not be dodged by the retraction of the head. It sliced through the wind as if to proclaim that it would not allow any fluke evasions―― hence, the fact that Rem managed to avoid it was no miracle or fortuity. It was inevitable.

How can "Flash of absolute death" refer to invisibility, at all.

Also, again, it's literally her fastest technique. She shouldn't be able to stop Emilia's spells after they're fired if the difference between speed is tens of thousands times or so.

 

[MrTayman616]

This is definitely thorough and well made so im leaning agree but I want to wait first to see what any opposition says

Bump (I won't have time soon, for weeks, so i'd like to finish the thread while i still have a little time.)

 

[VortechsTG]

Nothing productive is going to come of this until CelestialPegasus has compiled all the research he has been doing. It was premature to drop this thread when he's been working on it for months.

And, frankly, I find the mere suggestion that the yae statement shouldn't be immediately disregarded to come off as disingenuous. If you accept that statement to be true then the far more common and consistent statements about other characters at her level being at the speed of lightning or others far slower and weaker than her being faster than sound or bullets must automatically be true by nature of being far more common and consistent. But those statements cannot co-exist. The Yae statement is one of the clearest examples of an outlier I have ever seen.

 

[MrTayman616]

Nothing productive is going to come of this until CelestialPegasus has compiled all the research he has been doing. It was beyond premature to drop this thread when he's been working on it for months.

Maybe i should just close this...

Could be better to do it after i come back, or maybe CelestialPegasus would make his own thread and i'd just do it later. I'll just ask for it to be closed for now, probably for weeks