Re:Zero Moon+ Calc Downgrade

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think the AP value should remain. Reinhard does possess spatial interaction and EE, however his attacks are not shown to be pure erasure or zero energy effects. In multiple cases, like the Loot House scene, his strikes produce clear physical aftermath such as explosions, shockwaves, and large scale environmental displacement.

The destruction is accompanied by force propagation rather than clean removal of matter. The surrounding environment is violently affected, showcasing released energy as well.


Plus, in Arc 9, it is stated that even a nerfed Reinhard fighting nerfed Satella would lead to the world collapsing within days. This is shown as a consequence of sustained large scale destruction over time, implying overwhelming physical output rather than instantaneous erasure.


Thats why, while Reinhard’s attacks does have spatial hax, the following large scale destruction remains valid for AP.. Removing the value entirely due to the presence of hax would be inconsistent with how hybrid force-based attacks are generally treated.

 

[MrTayman616]

It would seem instead that the portrayal of the world having slid apart as shown by the manga visuals is consistent, although it isn't actually the entire world. We may actually be able to use the method used by Phantom.

I really doubt it'd even be island level(maybe?). There is no distance to use. While we can figure it out based on the size of the slash that cut the clouds, it seems too low to do anything. (Also, pointless if it's based on hax anyway)

I think the AP value should remain. Reinhard does possess spatial interaction and EE, however his attacks are not shown to be pure erasure or zero energy effects. In multiple cases, like the Loot House scene, his strikes produce clear physical aftermath such as explosions, shockwaves, and large scale environmental displacement.

The destruction is accompanied by force propagation rather than clean removal of matter. The surrounding environment is violently affected, showcasing released energy as well.

It doesn't suit at all though. The calc itself is wrong in the assumption, the value itself being suitable or high enough for a character like him doesn't mean anything.

This doesn't really matter. Anime and Manga doesn't show anything of that scale, nor even imply. LN doesn't show moving the clouds nor even explains it that way too. So even if we were to scale him based on clouds, we can either do it with what we've shown from anime or manga (which i assume wouldn't be as high as the storm's energy), or we'd just find the energy Puck uses and make him scale above, adding "far higher" as well.

Actually in the manga, the clouds move but not the entire mass, they're slashed and then slowly move apart. In the anime, We don't see it being the case as well, the clouds move but clearly not all mass or similar to the way in the calc. The LN doesn't say anything about pushing them or anything as far as i'm aware.

Also, we don't even see a following extra destruction or anything as well.

Plus, in Arc 9, it is stated that even a nerfed Reinhard fighting nerfed Satella would lead to the world collapsing within days. This is shown as a consequence of sustained large scale destruction over time, implying overwhelming physical output rather than instantaneous erasure.


Thats why, while Reinhard’s attacks does have spatial hax, the following large scale destruction remains valid for AP.. Removing the value entirely due to the presence of hax would be inconsistent with how hybrid force-based attacks are generally treated.

The first one is wrong. Like, even Satella's ability itself isn't really fully based on physical force or anything. Shadows expand and causes deconstruction. Also, many instantaneous erasure over a small area would still explain it as well. That statement isn't really a proof of anything other than what their fight could cause. Even a value lower than Garfiel's 6-A AP and a few days would be more than enough to do it.

The way it's shown in the manga seems to be the most accurate based on the novel's explanation(at least imo). We could use values from there but it's still vastly different than the current assumption.

---

Just the fact that he can't use Magic traditionally doesn't mean his attacks can't have hax, especially if it comes from a magic sword

Could someone give me a brief summary of the points here? I saw the slash being considered EE, why is it still being used to calculate a feat if it was hax that cleared?

Could you guys evaluate it please?

Currently Therefir seems to agree with the result.

The slash is heavily implied to be EE hax, so it's better to scale him from something else.

Though a confirmation could still be better ig?

 

[Arkenis]

Yea... ya gotta just drop Rein's split. Not only are ya tryna work off three different iterations of it, but when we do see the "split" it's only a split in manga and novel, then it's a small dispersion in anime, the split is clearly stated ee in novel, but even if we were to say fine it can be used, we'd never presume he outright dispersed the clouds from whatever distance besides what's shown which is at best city level.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Thats why, while Reinhard’s attacks does have spatial hax, the following large scale destruction remains valid for AP.. Removing the value entirely due to the presence of hax would be inconsistent with how hybrid force-based attacks are generally treated.

I agree with this, this is supported by the fact that right after Cecilus performs the same type of spatial slash as Reinhard, it is stated that his sword strike surpassed Muspel. I can't imagine that this would be said if there was no amount of AP involved in the attack

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 57

――In an instant, a flash of lightning that transcended the limits of the dao, slashed away the pouring rain of light into nihil.

It was not just the countless strands of light that were obliterated in that flash. The dense forest of stone pillars that covered Cecilus’s left, right, and rear, attempting to seal off any escape routes, was blown to smithereens.

At this moment, Cecilus Segmunt’s sword strike had surpassed the Spirit Eater Arakiya―― No, it had surpassed the Stone, Muspel, which was said to be the very land of the Vollachian Empire.

 

[MrTayman616]

I agree with this, this is supported by the fact that right after Cecilus performs the same type of spatial slash as Reinhard, it is stated that his sword strike surpassed Muspel. I can't imagine that this would be said if there was no amount of AP involved in the attack

Huh? A sword strike so divine that it cuts the world. Why is this slash surpassing Muspel make it AP related? (Not to mention, other causes like how far they can affect and stuff ig)

Also, even if AP was involved, it wouldn't matter if the feat shown isn't purely caused by it. We can't just say "there were both, so let's just assume all of it was only via pure AP".

This doesn't fix these problems either.

This doesn't really matter. Anime and Manga doesn't show anything of that scale, nor even imply. LN doesn't show moving the clouds nor even explains it that way too. So even if we were to scale him based on clouds, we can either do it with what we've shown from anime or manga (which i assume wouldn't be as high as the storm's energy), or we'd just find the energy Puck uses and make him scale above, adding "far higher" as well.

Actually in the manga, the clouds move but not the entire mass, they're slashed and then slowly move apart. In the anime, We don't see it being the case as well, the clouds move but clearly not all mass or similar to the way in the calc. The LN doesn't say anything about pushing them or anything as far as i'm aware.

Manga version appears to be the most accurate to the novel's explanation of this scene, which i'd say suits spatial cut here.

So it really doesn't matter as the calculation rn is using a massively flawed assumption.

 

[Therefir]

Yeah, I still think that calc should be discarded, use something else to scale the god tiers.

 

[Drite77]

Yeah, if this is just EE hax and the profiles take into account the Novel, the Manga and the anime into a single profile, then I don't think this can be used

 

[VortechsTG]

It is true you definitely can't use clouds for this calc. Using the value for the shifting is sketchy and probably doesn't yield much. As for the snow it's unclear if it's vaporized or erased. And the ground beneath affected by the shockwave seems to be a range of pulverization to fragmentation. Though neither of these would probably yield much either anyway. The feat is simply unusable. Now to downgrade the Garfiel feat

 

[VortechsTG]

Yeah, I still think that calc should be discarded, use something else to scale the god tiers.

The other feats for the god tiers:

 

[MrTayman616]

Two is enough as far as i know for Re:Zero. Is it accepted then?

There is no additional feat, so should i just apply the changes or do i need to make a CRT?

 

[Drite77]

Well, I don't think any thing about the replacement of his rating was ever discussed here

 

[MrTayman616]

Well, I don't think any thing about the replacement of his rating was ever discussed here

There is no replacement since that part of the calc itself isn't usable.

Those who scale to this value will scale above Garfiel's 6-A value, with the addition of far higher.

 

[Drite77]

There is no replacement since that part of the calc itself isn't usable.

Those who scale to this value will scale above Garfiel's 6-A value, with the addition of far higher.

That would require a CRT, say the cloud calc is rejected and offer replacements for his and any other person who scaled to the cloud feat's rating

 

[VortechsTG]

So, since we're talking about replacements now, I was trying to find what would be considered to be the approximate average type of cloud around the world or the typical makup of clouds and couldn't find anything. There's definitely a good reason for that. It's highly variable. But there has to be something better to use than nimbostratus clouds.

 

[Arkenis]

I think finding the biggest snow storm should work