Re:Zero Speed Of Light/FTL Downgrade

[MrTayman616]

Nvm.

 

[Huesito88]

accidentally sent it now :d

Great I agree FRA

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Dude chill, the chapter hasn't even been translated.

 

[MrTayman616]

Dude chill, the chapter hasn't even been translated.

Oh, it's not from this chapter. Well... that chapter includes like %7 of it.

 

[MrTayman616]

Dude chill, the chapter hasn't even been translated.

Can you check it now please?

 

[Huesito88]

"For Reinhard: "I think at least up to the speed of sound. He can probably go faster than that. He is accused by Subaru of going to the moon, kicking off the surface and coming back, so it’s the speed of going to the moon and coming back in minutes like during the fight.""

Just going to say assuming the distance is the same as our moon you'd need to have a required "little over 4 minutes" timeframe to get to Lightning speed ranges, do with that what you will

 

[Zabazab]

The first one is Julius's Al Clauzeria

Al Clauzeria's light speed comes from Ex Novel 4, where it attacks Carillion and it is said "a dragon which traveled faster than sound could not travel faster than light".

Other feats are fully based on "Jiwald" spell and it's applications. A beam of light. This was accepted because of this statement from Arc 6 but:

Spoiler

Raw: 直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点――しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる。

Translation : It went straight, and was as such, easy to dodge―― however, the heat rays forcefully crush it at a speed that outmatches even light[or(as if it's light)], charging straight towards its prey.

Problem :もかくやという here is the problem. かくや is used for giving unrealistic/extreme analogy, literally for making hyperbolic statements. this line doesn't really refer the attack being as fast as light but just refers to it being so fast. Also an addition to this, a statement from Ex volume 2: "The beam of light flew at Roswaal almost faster than the eye could see" which doesn't make any sense.

I believe this point has been debated before, when the upgrade was first made, but this is overall irrelevent. Jiwald being stated to move at the speed of light is just a bonus. The light-rays produced by Jiwald fulfill practically every single light-speed requirement: They travel in a straight line, heat up objects like metal, bounce off of reflective surfaces, and so on.

Jiwald is (clarified) (multiple) (times) (over [this one counts double because it's reflected by a metal shield, and heats up the metal]) to be a beam that travels at the speed of light both in Ex. Vol. 2 and the main story.

There is also Author's statements for the speed of characters

The author has also said it would take 2 seconds for Theresia to travel 50m (90km/h), which is slower than the likes of Garfiel (can match/outrun dragon carriages which are stated to move at 100km/h). Tappei obviously does not know the exact speed of lightning in comparison to the likes of light, and he is not putting such thought into twitter or talkshow Q&As. He is an artist, not a scientist.

Also in the novel, there are too many statement to support Cecilus being as fast as lightning as well.

This chapter released literally yesterday and is yet to be translated. Please don't ever include content like this in CRTs, it's silly.

But I'll argue this point anyway: This lightning statement doesn't even work even if you do assume the lightning speed is true.

Cecilus is very adamantly described as "as fast as lightning" as you have said yourself, and yet Reinhard has blocked serious attacks from him while just a couple of metres away. Meanwhile this lightning bolt would be coming from a cloud around 2km away. Basically it's just very silly to put more weight in this statement than the numerous feats/statements that tell us otherwise.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Nah I am leaving Fraudsoft's side, Halibel and Cecilus are now my new goats

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I believe this point has been debated before, when the upgrade was first made, but this is overall irrelevent. Jiwald being stated to move at the speed of light is just a bonus. The light-rays produced by Jiwald fulfill practically every single light-speed requirement: They travel in a straight line, heat up objects like metal, bounce off of reflective surfaces, and so on.

These links don't work, you have to change static parts of the links to vignette.

This topic comes up periodically, but yea Jiwald meets the requirements for being lightspeed imo, I can remember having this same argument 7 years ago with someone else, and even they had to admit that was the case, and just chalk it up as an outlier in their opinion. This became a lot harder to argue with the numerous Jiwald dodging feats in arc 8.

Anyway imo clearly Tappei doesn't know fast things are, which leads to this mess, ie there is no way Theresia is only 25m/s, when Garfiel has a faster feat, the statements he makes in q&a's have to a grain of salt to them, and things within the story itself have to scrutinized.

How is Reinhard having trouble with lightning, when a nerfed Reinhard in Ex Novel 4, could easily deal with Ceci (Pre-Training), who was repeatedly stated to be lightning speed? Doesn't make sense.

Edit: At the very end of this thread, imo the profiles are probably again going to need a new note acknowledging the inconsistencies, one way or the other.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Speed is messy 3

 

[LOTM_Historian]

What is Tappei doing with this new chapter??

Even with Arc 9 Chp 14’s anti-feat, the massive amount of evidence supporting FTL combat speed means that this instance should be considered an outlier, correct?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

What is Tappei doing with this new chapter??

Even with Arc 9 Chp 14’s anti-feat, the massive amount of evidence supporting FTL combat speed means that this instance should be considered an outlier, correct?

Yep

Or yk...Lightning as fast as Cecilus is perhaps..........FTL lightning?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Honestly, it just seems like the Auther is just failing at keeping low-speed caps constantly... (He is trying to keep the max speed at Lighting speed, but failing due to scalers)

 

[Trxyway]

Honestly, it just seems like the Auther is just failing at keeping low-speed caps constantly... (He is trying to keep the max speed at Lighting speed, but failing due to scalers)

If Tappei intended to cap the verse at lightning speed, why introduce Jiwald at all? It's described so precisely that it meets every requirement for being lightspeed, and then to top it off, it's explicitly stated to move at the speed of light. Why also mention that Al Clauzeria, which is confirmed to be lightspeed, requires someone of Reinhard's caliber to dodge it? Along with other lightspeed feats and statements, this doesn't align with the idea of a lightning speed cap and has nothing to do with the Scalers.

Let's just wait for the chapter's full translation, but this seems more like an outlier to me.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

What is Tappei doing with this new chapter??

Even with Arc 9 Chp 14’s anti-feat, the massive amount of evidence supporting FTL combat speed means that this instance should be considered an outlier, correct?

No, look at the characters from Black Clover as an example.

 

[MrTayman616]

They travel in a straight line, heat up objects like metal, bounce off of reflective surfaces, and so on.

It is is a heat ray after all made by yang magic. But it is not light speed, they even say it's speed doesn't reach to sol. There is a extremely clear statement about it not being light speed in the main story. Contradicts Ex volume (which i doubt someone even checked the raw of Ex volume to see if it is an exaggeration considering how they translate.)

This topic comes up periodically, but yea Jiwald meets the requirements for being lightspeed imo, I can remember having this same argument 7 years ago with someone else, and even they had to admit that was the case, and just chalk it up as an outlier in their opinion. This became a lot harder to argue with the numerous Jiwald dodging feats in arc 8.

Can you give examples about it please?

who was repeatedly stated to be lightning speed? Doesn't make sense.

He is Reinhard. as Aldebaran explains it, there are people who surpass him in certain areas, yet he's the strongest.

Just going to say assuming the distance is the same as our moon you'd need to have a required "little over 4 minutes" timeframe to get to Lightning speed ranges, do with that what you will

I know? this doesn't change much though. I put it to show author himself is clear about light speed itself. this statement also supports more of a Cecilus level.

and yet Reinhard has blocked serious attacks from him while just a couple of metres away

He's not that far away or an easy answer would be Divine protections i suppose? It is known that Cecilus is faster though. Al makes the lightning hit Reinhard, it might have not been counted as an attack.

 

[MrTayman616]

Honestly, it just seems like the Auther is just failing at keeping low-speed caps constantly... (He is trying to keep the max speed at Lighting speed, but failing due to scalers)

It's because of the words Author uses while someone uses Yang magic. Light Bullet, Light sword, beam of light. etc etc. But it's shown that it's just supposed to be the type of magic (Yang magic is light magic after all.) rather than the speed itself. They are made of light yet don't move at those speeds. Because they contain mana maybe? After all star lights that contains mana doesn't move at those speeds either

 

[Zabazab]

There is a extremely clear statement about it not being light speed in the main story.

This is a lie. In both the web novel and light novel, Jiwald is stated to travel at the speed of light. That's its only speed statement. You also didn't actually refute the fact that Jiwald possesses every property necessary to be considered as light-speed.

He's not that far away or an easy answer would be Divine protections i suppose? It is known that Cecilus is faster though. Al makes the lightning hit Reinhard, it might have not been counted as an attack.

This isn't a refutation to what I said. And again, the chapter isn't even translated yet. Not to mention the Divine Protection of the Lightning Cloud is still a factor.

 

[MrTayman616]

Al Clauzeria's light speed comes from Ex Novel 4, where it attacks Carillion and it is said "a dragon which traveled faster than sound could not travel faster than light".

This is a lie. In both the web novel and light novel, Jiwald is stated to travel at the speed of light. That's its only speed statement. You also didn't actually refute the fact that Jiwald possesses every property necessary to be considered as light-speed.

Oh i was talking about Al Clauzeria. i replied the wrong part :d

 

[MrTayman616]

Jiwald possesses every property necessary to be considered as light-speed.

It IS Yang magic after all? Yang magic is literally Light magic. Light bullet, Light Sword, Beam of Light. But they clearly don't move at light speed considering everything that contradicts it, feats statements etc. Even star lights that contains mana is considered slower than lightning.

Problem :もかくやという here is the problem. かくや is used for giving unrealistic/extreme analogy, literally for making hyperbolic statements. this line doesn't really refer the attack being as fast as light but just refers to it being so fast. Also an addition to this, a statement from Ex volume 2: "The beam of light flew at Roswaal almost faster than the eye could see" which doesn't make any sense.

Not just that but later in the same exact volume, She uses another jiwald spell "Al jiwald" a stronger one, yet she says it's also faster and that even roswaal would have trouble dodging it.

"The destructive ray speared diagonally across the great hall, and deathdrew nearer by the instant. Even Roswaal would be hard-pressed to dodge it;"

So Light can move faster as well, Not at all. It's just that all of these came from Yang magic, They don't move at light speed.

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Yes it likely would.

There is more evidence for SoL / FTL then there is antifeats for characters being Lightning speed so its a inconsistency unless Tappei does something weird again.

Its similar to how Fate / FGO has relativistic - FTL feats but there is plethora of Mach Speed statements but a calcs or two rules out downgrading the verse. So we treat it as inconsistencies from Nasu (atleast on this site).

It is funny in hindsight how Cecilus was going to be upgraded to Lightning speed dued to many statements (a long time ago) but instead he is responsible for "nerfing" reinhard in a way.

 

[Zabazab]

But they clearly don't move at light speed considering everything that contradicts it, feats statements etc.

There is literally nothing contradicting Jiwald being light-speed. It has every property of natural light and is stated to move at the speed of light.

Even star lights that contains mana is considered slower than lightning.

It's not the light of stars, it's the stars themselves. The star are masses of pure mana, they are not Yang Magic let alone a ray of light like Jiwald. You are inventing a connection between the Forbidden Art of Al Shario and the branch of Yang Magic called Jiwald.

"The destructive ray speared diagonally across the great hall, and deathdrew nearer by the instant. Even Roswaal would be hard-pressed to dodge it;"

This is because Al Jiwald is several metres in diametre, compared to Jiwald which is at most a few centimetres. The speed of Al Jiwald is not stated to be different.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Actually, yk what? Reinhard was physically nerfed by the miasma and apparently was the weakest here than he would anywhere else in the world so it wouldnt be shocking to know that he couldn't move at his full speed

Afterall we see another nerfed version of Reinhard in vollachia deal with lightning speed attacks pretty easily from a much closer distance (about a 100-200 times), it might be a way for Tappei to show just how nerfed he was exactly in this fight for VolcanicAl to even have a chance

Also @MrTayman616 try not to have this argument end up being circular with no progress. Stalling is annoying for everyone and stops us from forwarding the discussion, this is also without mentioning how you have basically been ignoring the opposition's argument.

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

That would make sense on how Reinhard can block cecilus's attacks in CQC while having trouble dodging lightning from KMs away.

It does actually align with things more yeah

 

[MrTayman616]

There is literally nothing contradicting Jiwald being light-speed. It has every property of natural light and is stated to move at the speed of light.

Spoiler

Raw: 直線的で、避けられやすいように思える難点――しかし、熱線はそれを光もかくやという速度で強引に潰し、獲物へと真っ直ぐに襲いかかる。

Translation : It went straight, and was as such, easy to dodge―― however, the heat rays forcefully crush it at a speed that outmatches even light[or(as if it's light)], charging straight towards its prey.

Problem :もかくやという here is the problem. かくや is used for giving unrealistic/extreme analogy, literally for making hyperbolic statements. this line doesn't really refer the attack being as fast as light but just refers to it being so fast. Also an addition to this, a statement from Ex volume 2: "The beam of light flew at Roswaal almost faster than the eye could see" which doesn't make any sense.

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It's not the light of stars, it's the stars themselves. The star are masses of pure mana, they are not Yang Magic let alone a ray of light like Jiwald. You are inventing a connection between the Forbidden Art of Al Shario and the branch of Yang Magic called Jiwald.

It is from the latest chapter. Al talks about the light of the stars. Anyway i shouldn't talk about it as it's better if it's fully translated first. it might be wrong after all.

This is because Al Jiwald is several metres in diametre, compared to Jiwald which is at most a few centimetres. The speed of Al Jiwald is not stated to be different.

How do we know the size? Can you send it if there is something about it please?

Stalling is annoying for everyone and stops us from forwarding the discussion, this is also without mentioning how you have basically been ignoring the opposition's argument.

i have an exam tomorrow(today). i'm trying to keep myself from long answers until then.

 

[Zabazab]

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Reposting an argument I've already responded to is pointless. Please don't go in circles.

Anyway i shouldn't talk about it

True!

How do we know the size?

Because there is a manga adaptation of The Sword Demon Love Song. It's got pretty good art.