Really Controversial Sans CRT...

[ShionAH]

• Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)
• Note: Due to the fact that in-universe the only characters that Sans fought are evil (those being Flowey and Frisk in the Genocide Route), it's unknown how it would affect other characters in vs threads, and as such it shouldn't be assumed that it has any relevant effect that would result in them being crippled or similar.

On the profile it's stated that the Empathic Manipulation is a minor hax and that it would likely be useless in vs threads, except that just doesn't seem right or fair.

First of all the effects very clearly exist. They crawl on your back, weighing down on your neck and more

Frisk has actual showings of not feeling remorse from things that normally would.

The main piece of evidence is from Frisk's interactions with the Dummy.

• At LV 1: They feel bad.
• At LV 9: They feel good (same is said in a full Genocide Run where you're LV 11/12 at the time)

Basically, if Frisk at LV 9 already doesn't feel bad for stuff Frisk does at LV 1, imagine at LV 19
Can't even say it doesn't have a supernatural effect when sans' poison effect is pretty explicitly tied to its increase.

• [Neutral, 0-10 KR] You felt your sins crawling on your back.
• [Neutral, 10-20 KR] You felt your sins weighing on your neck.
• [Neutral, 20-30 KR] KARMA coursing through your veins.
• [Neutral, 30-40 KR, though difficult to trigger due to the rate at which KR drains at this stage] Doomed to death of KARMA!

@Eden_Warlock99 and @StrymULTRA Credit

---

Now onto ability additions!!!

• Minor Fragrance Manipulation (Can make the enviroment smell like "Sans")

Yep... we are done. Damn

 

[LittleGuy99]

In the end Strym did add the Bulldozer to his CRT

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nah nah here's gonna be me throwing a wall of text to disagree with everything, this thread now is cooked beyond repair!

Jokes aside I'll get to this tomorrow, y'all better wait as I have a thing to say about both Sans' Emphatic shit and how the KR is related to it.

 

[ShionAH]

y'all better wait as I have a thing to say about both Sans' Emphatic shit and how the KR is related to it.

Mofo didn't you concede and agree just yesterday, anyways do you agree with the other extremely important addition

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mofo didn't you concede and agree just yesterday

It's also about the KR, it's extremely related to it, trust me.

anyways do you agree with the other extremely important addition

I'll get to this tomorrow

 

[MrTayman616]

So when the victim of such effects continues to fight with iron will and that doesn't mean Sans' ability is weak that wouldn't work on anyone but actually showcase of how determined the player is that they can resist such feelings.

This

Note: Due to the fact that in-universe the only characters that Sans fought are evil (those being Flowey and Frisk in the Genocide Route), it's unknown how it would affect other characters in vs threads, and as such it shouldn't be assumed that it has any relevant effect that would result in them being crippled or similar

It's minor as not only we don't see it having an actual bad/relevant effect on the user, we have nothing else to compare as well.

So, saying "it's actually the opponents being so determined" doesn't work as we neither have confirmation or something else to compare.

So unless i've missed something(i'm qt phone rn, so it's very possible), i don't agree with changing it.

---

Vehicle Mastery isn't simply being able to use one.

Sans didn't show extraordinary skill or mastery of using bulldozer, so it doesn't qualify.

The last one seems fine.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's minor as not only we don't see it having an actual bad/relevant effect on the user, we have nothing else to compare as well.

"weighing on [my] neck" is what I say when I'm trying to describe something that has no effect on me.

What are we expecting Empath Manip to do anyway, erasing Frisk from existence lol

 

[ShionAH]

We do see effects?

It weights on their bodies like it’s physical, crawls on their backs and stands on their necks.

So it does do stuff but surprise surprise the extreme cold and heartless monster of determination can power through it.

Again I will restate this but if you saw a guy use a flamethrower to burn the other guy while the narrator says that “it will char their skin!” but then the victim was fine would that mean the person was resisting the fire or the flamethrower uses 1 degree fire?

 

[SnakesCity]

Tentatively i'll agree for now, looks fine overall. Toby Fox please give us more canon examples of Sans having completely useless abilities so there's a stockpile of them on his page

 

[Maniaunavailable]

This

It's minor as not only we don't see it having an actual bad/relevant effect on the user, we have nothing else to compare as well.

So, saying "it's actually the opponents being so determined" doesn't work as we neither have confirmation or something else to compare.

So unless i've missed something(i'm qt phone rn, so it's very possible), i don't agree with changing it.

---

Vehicle Mastery isn't simply being able to use one.

Sans didn't show extraordinary skill or mastery of using bulldozer, so it doesn't qualify.

The last one seems fine.

I mean, Sans battle has karma damage, which hurts chara more due to how many people he has killed (Unless its headcanon and am liying)

 

[MrTayman616]

"weighing on [my] neck" is what I say when I'm trying to describe something that has no effect on me.

I never claimed it has no affect, but any relevant one, at least based on what i consider from the note there.

Though what do we consider relevant, dunno about that.

What are we expecting Empath Manip to do anyway, erasing Frisk from existence lol

I also don't know. Even if it doesn't appear to have such negative effects or anything, i don't think it's expected as such. So i'm not sure about the difference between calling it minor or normal :d

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[IDK3465]

We do see effects?

It weights on their bodies like it’s physical, crawls on their backs and stands on their necks.

So it does do stuff but surprise surprise the extreme cold and heartless monster of determination can power through it.

Again I will restate this but if you saw a guy use a flamethrower to burn the other guy while the narrator says that “it will char their skin!” but then the victim was fine would that mean the person was resisting the fire or the flamethrower uses 1 degree fire?

tbf, the whole "crawling on your back" thing is likely just a metaphorical phrase, not Frisk literally feeling physical strain from their guilty conscience lol, that'd need a tad bit more evidence to back it up. Don't get me wrong, it still significantly affects them emotionally based on those lines, so I think it's fine to remove the note that it's just minor, I just disagree with it having some kinda supernatural effect.

That being said, if it has no proven supernatural properties, do we have any reason to believe it's full-on emphatic manipulation rather than just SI?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

• Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)
• Note: Due to the fact that in-universe the only characters that Sans fought are evil (those being Flowey and Frisk in the Genocide Route), it's unknown how it would affect other characters in vs threads, and as such it shouldn't be assumed that it has any relevant effect that would result in them being crippled or similar.

On the profile it's stated that the Empathic Manipulation is a minor hax and that it would likely be useless in vs threads, except that just doesn't seem right or fair.

First of all the effects very clearly exist. They crawl on your back, weighing down on your neck and more

So when the victim of such effects continues to fight with their pure will that doesn't mean Sans' ability is weak that wouldn't work on anyone but actually showcase of how determined the player is that they can resist such feelings. We have direct statements of them physically taking a toll on Frisk but they can continue which is a resistance to them rather than a weakness of Sans, similar to how a guy being hit by Fire breathing dragon would have resistance to it and not that the Fire breath is 1 degrees lol

So pretty simple, get rid of Minor. Maybe give Frisk resistant or just put it down under their willpower.

Disagree with the change, for pretty much what the other have mentioned.
*We have only seen it used on Evil characters, so we have no idea how it affects neutral/good characters. (likely won't even, due to his karma gig)
*Its effect is metaphoricall, so we don't really know what it does.

I would also like to add to the fact that Sans is well known to have lots of useless abilities... Such as the other one proposed in this thread, or his "heat manipulation".

Now onto ability additions!!!

• Minor Fragrance Manipulation (Can make the enviroment smell like "Sans")

Agree with this one though....

 

[ShionAH]

tbf, the whole "crawling on your back" thing is likely just a metaphorical phrase, not Frisk literally feeling physical strain from their guilty conscience lol, that'd need a tad bit more evidence to back it up. Don't get me wrong, it still significantly affects them emotionally based on those lines, so I think it's fine to remove the note that it's just minor, I just disagree with it having some kinda supernatural effect.

That being said, if it has no proven supernatural properties, do we have any reason to believe it's full-on emphatic manipulation rather than just SI?

Other one directly says its weighing on their necks. Like physically…

*We have only seen it used on Evil characters, so we have no idea how it affects neutral/good characters. (likely won't even, due to his karma gig)

We dont assume haxes are just useless because they didnt work unless its directly stated to be useless, we assume the other person can just resist it

*Its effect is metaphoricall, so we don't really know what it does.

Why would YOUR SINS physically weighing on your neck not be supernatural?? Cmon?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Other one directly says its weighing on their necks. Like physically…

Here is the thing: there is nothing in these scans that proves its physical weight. I have seen similar statements and feelings in real life, and do I even need to say why that doesn't give real abilities? Many people who are depressed or feeling negative describe their body as feeling "heavy".

We dont assume haxes are just useless because they didnt work unless its directly stated to be useless, we assume the other person can just resist it

Nor did I state it was useless; my point was that Sans is known to have abilities that are completely and utterly useless in a fight, for example, his sound manipulation, his heat manipulation.

But that is derailing my intention, the feat nor the statements do not meet the requirements for it to become a full-out ability, that's the problem. To counter that by trying to give resistance to the only people we have seen it on just feels like stretching the answer far more than just assuming the ability is not full.

Giving this a full-out rating would be an NLF. Not only does it lack feats and statements, but it can also ONLY affect people with bad actions...

Why would YOUR SINS physically weighing on your neck not be supernatural?? Cmon?

First of all, again, where does the "physical weight" come from?

Second of all, it's not supernatural... It's called feeling the emotion of "guilt"...

 

[ShionAH]

Forcing someone as heartless and evil as Frisk to feel enough negativity and sadness to the actions that they didn’t care about nor felt guilty about to the point that they feel like it’s physically weighing down on them or crawling on their back is definitely a full Empathic Manipulation. Player isn’t feeling this BECAUSE they are guilty/depressed (they clearly arent) like you gave in your example but because Sans is FORCING them to be judged and feel these through Karma. If I punch you and suddenly your past sins and actions start crawling into your back skin, weighing down on your neck would that not be supernatural ability to you??

I think its obvious this wouldn’t help much against good or pure evil people BUT it would do wonders against misguided character.

 

[Steve1775]

Disagree for Empathic hax as that is a big stretch

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Here are some examples of characters with Empathic Manipulation.

• Basically everyone in Omori have it cause they can turn each other either Happy, Angry or Sad.
• Kazuma has it cause he can anger his opponent.
• Blue Diamond can make other Gems feel what she feels.

See how all of these just involve inducing emotions in someone? Empathic Manipulation is literally defined as "The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions"
Making someone feel Guilty, is just standard Empath Manip. Hell it’s outright listed as one of the common examples.
Calling this "Minor Empathic Manipulation" is akin to giving all UT characters "Minor SOUL Manipulation" cause while they do hurt the SOUL, they don't hurt the mind!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can't even say it doesn't have a supernatural effect when sans' poison effect is pretty explicitly tied to its increase.

• [Neutral, 0-10 KR] You felt your sins crawling on your back.
• [Neutral, 10-20 KR] You felt your sins weighing on your neck.
• [Neutral, 20-30 KR] KARMA coursing through your veins.
• [Neutral, 30-40 KR, though difficult to trigger due to the rate at which KR drains at this stage] Doomed to death of KARMA!

 

[Steve1775]

Here are some examples of characters with Empathic Manipulation.

• Basically everyone in Omori have it cause they can turn each other either Happy, Angry or Sad.
• Kazuma has it cause he can anger his opponent.
• Blue Diamond can make other Gems feel what she feels.

See how all of these just involve inducing emotions in someone? Empathic Manipulation is literally defined as "The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions"
Making someone feel Guilty, is just standard Empath Manip. Hell it’s outright listed as one of the common examples.
Calling this "Minor Empathic Manipulation" is akin to giving all UT characters "Minor SOUL Manipulation" cause while they do hurt the SOUL, they don't hurt the mind!

I mean I can argue that we do see characters getting affected by it while we cant say for sure during sans battle outside of his karma stuff

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean I can argue that we do see characters getting affected by it while we cant say for sure during sans battle outside of his karma stuff

I mean duh
"sans' KR had no effect if we ignore it's effect" lol

 

[Steve1775]

I mean duh
"sans' KR had no effect if we ignore it's effect" lol

What i mean is that all those examples you show at least show a visual example of the person being affected to show how it works, we really don't have that for sans besides KR

 

[ShionAH]

What i mean is that all those examples you show at least show a visual example of the person being affected to show how it works, we really don't have that for sans besides KR

We have statements that show that it does affect Frisk… how tf are we supposed to visually show emotional changes to a heartless character who can endure it?

Its even funnier when you remember in some canon endings Frisk eventually hugs Sans which is really surprising for Geno Frisk UNLESS Sans really had some effect on them.

 

[Steve1775]

We have statements that show that it does affect Frisk… how tf are we supposed to visually show emotional changes to a heartless character who can endure it?

Its even funnier when you remember in some canon endings Frisk eventually hugs Sans which is really surprising for Geno Frisk UNLESS Sans really had some effect on them.

I mean most of frisk's choice are influenced by the player is it not?

 

[ShionAH]

I mean most of frisk's choice are influenced by the player is it not?

Which supports my claim of the opposing force being resistant rather than Sans being non effective

 

[Monsters_fight]

I agree with Shion

 

[IDK3465]

Can't even say it doesn't have a supernatural effect when sans' poison effect is pretty explicitly tied to its increase.

Shit, I forgot that these lines were explicitly tied to Sans’ KARMA lol. Ok, I change my mind, I agree that it has a physical effect on Frisk

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can't even say it doesn't have a supernatural effect when sans' poison effect is pretty explicitly tied to its increase.

I mean, yeah.


Though, y'all, y'all, y'all... You forget something. Frisk has actual showings of not feeling remorse from things that normally would.

The main piece of evidence is from Frisk's interactions with the Dummy.

• At LV 1: They feel bad.
• At LV 9: They feel good (same is said in a full Genocide Run where you're LV 11/12 at the time)

Basically, if Frisk at LV 9 already doesn't feel bad for stuff Frisk does at LV 1, imagine at LV 19.

I'd say that OP is good based on what I said above (as otherwise it's pretty bad as it relies on a "trust me bro" and nothing else).

 

[ShionAH]

I'd say that OP is good based on what I said above (as otherwise it's pretty bad as it relies on a "trust me bro" and nothing else).

Can I add this to the OP then mr genius

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can I add this to the OP then mr genius

I mean, yeah bro forgot the reason why I've conceded in the 1st place I'm crying

 

[ShionAH]

I mean, yeah bro forgot the reason why I've conceded in the 1st place I'm crying

I lowkey forgot that LV thing, this also works well for my next CRT about a certain ability

 

[StrymULTRA]

I lowkey forgot that LV thing, this also works well for my next CRT about a certain ability

If you talk about SI then forget about it already

 

[Chariot190]

On the profile it's stated that the Empathic Manipulation is a minor hax and that it would likely be useless in vs threads, except that just doesn't seem right or fair.

First of all the effects very clearly exist. They crawl on your back, weighing down on your neck and more

That seems extremely fair and right, generous even.
Ignoring the extremely common phrasing used which makes me think it's thematic framing.
This is, by definition, minor.
It doesn't effect their combative ability.
It doesn't implicate any degree of actual remorse.
It doesn't really say anything beyond they're cognizant of sins they've once done.

I severely doubt this was your intent but in case it was, no, "sins crawling on your back", is a common phrasing in line with, but not limited to:

• my sins are crawling up on me/closing in on me
• the weight of my sins
• my sins catching up to me
• haunted by my sins
• sins clinging to me
• guilt crawling under my skin

And many more, it isn't literal.


You're basically arguing that it exists and because it exists it can't be minor.
Mayhaps you'd have a point if the ability was listed as a "possibly", and your CRT was to change it from possibly to flat out, but it isn't, you're trying to frame an extremely negligible effect that ahs basically zero showings into a more concrete ability while removing the note that actually acknowledges the very fact it never actually did much and as such not to extrapolate it beyond what it's actually done.

If anything I'd be more willing to argue it should be simply "likely", as nothing ever once states the cause of this, links it to Sans himself, and especially not some sort of special never mentioned or conveyed ability. For all we know it could simply be SI, maybe even nothing at all and contextual.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Snip

How's your thing you was doing coming

(Also following/neutral)

 

[Chariot190]

How's your thing you was doing coming

(Also following/neutral)

We (as in me, as in like a hour ago) discovered DGN1 was lore checked by Kojima so thinking of adding some stuff from that.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

We (as in me, as in like a hour ago) discovered DGN1 was lore checked by Kojima so thinking of adding some stuff from that.

Icic, that sounds peak

 

[ShionAH]

Oh uh what?

First of all the text is very clear in it's intent, we know Frisk who when they gain LV lose more and more of their remorse and guilt of their actions going from feeling bad in hurting during Lv 1 to feeling GOOD at killing during Lv 9. Meanwhile Sans is fighting a Lv 19 Frisk who is ALMOST at Lv 20. The MAX level, they truly became a heartless cold blooded monster. In undertale LOVE stands for Level of Violence which is directly stated to be one's capacity to hurt others, the more Frisk kills the easier it becomes to kill more because the new distance they gain, the more distance they gain the less they feel hurt from their actions the more easily they can shrug off morality.

So yes Frisk DOES have a easier time ignoring stuff they should feel bad about or guilty for and we see this take full effect ALL the way back in Lv 9. Now guess what 19 is gonna do to this kid.

I feel like you are DRASTICALLY downplaying the statements to make them sound less literal and then claiming it isn't from Sans which is VERY absurd. Let me go over that too. Especially when we KNOW the affects get WORSE and WORSE the more Sans uses KARMA on you...

• At 0 to 10 Karma "You felt your sins crawling on your back". Right now I can see the arguments that its useless and not literal.
• At 10 to 20 "You felt your sins weighing on your neck". Right here it already becomes literal and physical that they can DIRECTLY state its weighing down on their neck through it's "mass".
• At 20 to 30 "KARMA coursing through your veins." Now it is directly mentioned that this magical feeling of guilt and KARMA is literally inside your veins traveling through (shown as poison damage of purple for your HP which makes it even MORE literal as an ability)
• At the FINAL stage of Karma we get this single line. "Doomed to death of KARMA!" And you except me to believe Karma doesn't affect them at all?

And now...

If anything I'd be more willing to argue it should be simply "likely", as nothing ever once states the cause of this, links it to Sans himself, and especially not some sort of special never mentioned or conveyed ability. For all we know it could simply be SI, maybe even nothing at all and contextual.

What the fck are you talking about? It's DIRECTLY conveyed to be because of KARMA which is the poison effect Sans has in his boss fight and attacks special and specifically he can control, he is the JUDGE of the underground and this is his way of punishing us one last time to stop the destruction of the timeline. It's the MAIN reason why Sans is so threatening since he can bypass his own weakness of having... worst stats ever. Just like how he cheats for his turns, or attacks during your turn, or messes with the box, or attacks your menu or writes shit in your menu.

 

[God_of_perversion]

You forgot probably the most inpirtant piece of evidence for this crt. On the pacifist route Sans tells you to judge your own actions and you do,but if you have love Sans says that you are bored and judges you himself meaning oncr you gain love you lose the capability to feel the consequences of your action

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Minor Empathic Manipulation (When against Sans, the opponents will likely feel guilt as if their sins were crawling on their backs)

The curtain was blue