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That makes sense to me, but does it follow wiki standards?
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Rebirth Superman vs Zero
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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He doesn't instantly go for the kill against sentient beings, regardless of if they're artifical or not unless he has no other choice. If anything, him not killing Zero would unironically be an easier way to beat him since killing him off-rip gives Zero every incentive to use his hax right out the gate.
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Yeah, that's true, I meant that he has less reservations to be more damaging or lethal with his blows. The accidental one-shot is still a thing since we're making him start at 2-C though.
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Information manipulation is labeled as a mechanism by which reality warping is possible on the reality warping page, and for what it’s worth I’ve seen this logic being used by multiple knowledgeable members in Q&A threads before. But the definition for type 2 being the manipulation of the fundamental building blocks of reality being the case, and Superman resisting his reality being warped by a 1-A+ entity, is sufficient imo.
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That's what I was thinking, I feel like reality-warping is a broader term that encompasses information manipulation among other methods to "warp" reality.
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Are there significant differences between Zero's reality warping and Mxyzptlk's? Also, wouldn't the NLF be the other way around, given Mxy's higher dimensionality?
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It’s not a NLF since it’s simply saying that resisting your reality being warped by someone on a higher ontological level than you means you should resist someone on the same ontological level messing with the fundamental components making up with your reality. Saying that it’s two different mechanisms affecting that reality doesn’t matter if it’s the same effect, and if one mechanism is qualitatively superior, the effect (and the resistance to that effect) also scales to that mechanism.
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- #50
No because Mxy’s powers doesn’t cover info hax. The NLF is to claim Zero having normal reality warping power would work on Superman, but Zero’s powers of the Cyber Elves are specifically tied to information hax so the burden of proof would be on you that he’d be able to resist or deal with that kind of power.
It’s akin to claiming you can resist fate and law hax just because you resist reality warping with no evidence said reality warping powers remotely covers those application.
@Osemere the applications of them are completely different. Resisting being paralyzed by electricity doesn’t mean you can resist you being frozen in time despite the fact the end result is still you being frozen in place being incapable of moving.
It’s akin to claiming you can resist fate and law hax just because you resist reality warping with no evidence said reality warping powers remotely covers those application.
@Osemere the applications of them are completely different. Resisting being paralyzed by electricity doesn’t mean you can resist you being frozen in time despite the fact the end result is still you being frozen in place being incapable of moving.
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I agree that being frozen in time isn’t the same as being frozen in place by electricity frying your nervous system, but this is just a false analogy, since information type 2 is literally just warping reality through the manipulation of the information making up that reality, and wouldn’t scale in potency anything above the scale of the reality it was manipulating. If Superman resisted having his reality warped by a being operating on a scale which allowed them to warp qualitatively superior realities, it doesn’t follow that since the mechanism of manipulating a given reality is nominally different that the effect would be anything but.
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- #52
They both are competely different applications that can do similar effects.
Also for the record if Superman no sells an ability that’s 1-A in nature that sounds more like an anti feat for the power being 1-A with the current standards.
Also for the record if Superman no sells an ability that’s 1-A in nature that sounds more like an anti feat for the power being 1-A with the current standards.
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I mean, information manipulation can e.g. also manipulate space-times such that it would also cover space-time manipulation, but if someone were to resist that, it wouldn’t necessarily mean they would resist the information manipulation (as the information being manipulated could also compose matter, energy, physics, etc.) It’s just that reality-warping on Mxyzptlk’s level covers all of these facets and more, and the only thing you can appeal to would information being a “deeper” facet that could be manipulated, but that’s trumped by this manipulation from Mxyzptlk being so deep it’s on a higher ontological level. So there’s no real argument here to be made that a specific subset of reality warping in effect could work on someone whose resistance to their reality being warped comes from a qualitatively superior facet. This also comes in relation to your law and fate hax example.
And yeah, I agree the tiers are a mess, but in general “1-A narrative invincibility”, if it continues to be a thing, probably would be applicable to Superman, if it’s applicable to Captain America’s shield under the current standards…
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Except Info hax type 2 isn’t stated on the page to be just a mere subset of reality warping. If you’re using the “possible mechanisms” stuff that’s at best just examples of different abilities that can achieve similar results. If we’re talking about Fear hax/Empathic Hax vs full on Mind Hax where the former two are literally a subset of mind hax then you’d have an argument since they branch off a similar set of abilities but that’s not what’s the relationship with info type 2 and reality warping.
1-A invincibility when Doomsday starts throwing hands.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm just gonna vote Zero for the reasons I gave earlier. If he dies he goes for hax instantly and if he gets restrained then the Cyber Elves can still be used, it just wouldn't be a more immediate option compared to his other hax powers.
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Info hax is stated on the page to be a mechanism of reality warping though, and again, there isn’t any priority in terms of metaphysical aspects according to the standards on this wiki. So you can’t even claim that information is a “deeper” aspect of reality that could be warped than warping concepts or whatever, so you would have to rely on the actual potency of the reality being warped in order to gauge the order of reality warping. And a being with info type 2 using that as a mechanism to reality warp someone else would then be capped at the potency of the reality they have reality warped before via manipulating its information, which would be overpowered by someone resisting 1-A+ reality warping.
And it’s not like warping the information of a reality is actually distinct from warping the entire reality altogether which would include the information within it, unless you want to claim that most settings simply don’t contain information even when they have computers and models of physics similar to the real world, and that’s ignoring how the cosmology blog says that the higher-realms which Mxyzptlk has warped is made up of pure information, etc. Reality warping is the umbrella term for all the mechanisms by which one can warp a given reality, which includes information hax, so the greater analogy here would in fact be empathetic manipulation or memory manip and mind hax, even if the facets of the mind being manipulated are nominally different.
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That's not how that works, especially given the significance of Superman's narrative in DC cosmology. It's a canon thing that stories and narratives have immense power.
How is Mxyzptlk not manipulating information when reality warping? Especially when his warping works on a more fundamental level than what appears to be the case for Zero.
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- #58
@Rex_Eckles is the 1-A resistances even accepted on his page or no? That’s what I wanna know because it seems all of the stuff being argued for Superman with the info hax is based on stuff not even accepted yet.
Wdym by “more fundamental level” when there’s no hierarchy for fundamental levels of reality? We don’t assume resisting one hax means you resist all of them. Also again Myx’s page doesn’t even have Info hax so if you want to argue that, make a revisions thread to give him info hax.
@Osemere where on the info hax page does it say it’s a subset of reality warping akin to Empathic manipulation being tied to mind manipulation? Ok so you acknowledge that there isn’t a hierarchy, meaning you can’t argue info hax is inferior to reality warping either, especially when Superman lacks resistances to the hax in the first place.
Wdym by “more fundamental level” when there’s no hierarchy for fundamental levels of reality? We don’t assume resisting one hax means you resist all of them. Also again Myx’s page doesn’t even have Info hax so if you want to argue that, make a revisions thread to give him info hax.
@Osemere where on the info hax page does it say it’s a subset of reality warping akin to Empathic manipulation being tied to mind manipulation? Ok so you acknowledge that there isn’t a hierarchy, meaning you can’t argue info hax is inferior to reality warping either, especially when Superman lacks resistances to the hax in the first place.
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Well, I never said it’s inferior, I just said it’s another mechanism to get the same (equivalent) byproduct, which is being able to arbitrarily warp reality at its deepest levels, expressed in information. It’s just that this is one possible way to get to that result in manipulating one fundamental aspect, but being able to use the umbrella term to warp all facets of a given reality isn’t therefore exempt by the usage of a “deeper facet” representing information. The fact that there isn’t a hierarchy means you can’t appeal to there being “deeper” facets being exempt from the umbrella terminology, and instead you have to use what level of reality the warping can manipulate, which is based on tiers. So Superman resisting his reality being warped by a 1-A+ being obviously trumps his reality being warped via information-control from someone on the same level of reality as him.
Check this thread out if you want, it clarifies that information manipulation is itself reality warping on a quantitative level, so being able to reality warp things qualitatively superior to that level (such as Mxyzptlk is able to do in warping Godsphere realms) should obviously be sufficient for a resistance.
Correlation of Concepts/Information with Low 1-A/1-A stuff
Got permission from @Firestorm808 to make this staff thread An approach for Low 1-A/1-A cosmology As per Ultima, if a realm's existence is in such a way that it is "total absence of space and also completely dwarfs space itself", the realm must be Low 1-A/1-A in size. "Space itself" Now the...
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That's not how the fundamental aspects work here. Plus reality warping isn't tied to things that are fundamental aspects akin to history, narrative, concept and information that we define in the scope of high godly regeneration. The other important thing here is Superman isn't a higher existence that exists beyond what information is so assuming he can no sell hax that he's not shown any resistance towards is textbook definition NLF. If you want to argue he resists info type 2 hax then make a CRT for it, because right now on his page he lacks the resistance.
Either way knowing Zero's resurrection is a thing, I'll vote for him too. He'll just learn fast he'd need to go all out and resort to abilities like the Cyber Elves to take supes down.
Either way knowing Zero's resurrection is a thing, I'll vote for him too. He'll just learn fast he'd need to go all out and resort to abilities like the Cyber Elves to take supes down.
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I was referring to DT’s statements on reality warping not having a specific precedent over any given “aspect” of that reality being warped (like how plot hax and concept hax can technically both lead to the warping of a given reality, but their interaction isn’t necessarily one way given the alleged “superiority” of an aspect over the other), not any extension of fundamental aspects we use for regeneration or erasure. And you don’t need to have a higher existence “beyond” information to be anything but immune to information manipulation, which isn’t what I’m trying to litigate here. It would be more of a NLF to definitively say you can warp someone’s reality using a different quantitative aspect when someone has resisted their reality being warped on a qualitative level, unless Mxy somehow was downgraded from 1-A or something just now and I wasn’t aware of it.
How does his resurrection work?
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Can zero be knocked out? Because if so first hit he’s hitting the floor because Superman, like many comic characters, can do the super hard ap nuke (as in just super hard punch, not an explosion) punch and still just knock the way weaker people out instead of killing them (like how he one hit world forger innately showing he’s strong enough to kill him yet just floored him). Granted idk if zero will stay down the full 24 hours but he’s still getting laid out hit one because the beyond infinite ap disadvantage.
Arkansalter2
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Supes doesn't kill IC. He mostly KOs.
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@Osemere from what I've been able to find on the megaman wiki, seems to operate like normal video game resurrection abilities of "you get taken down/die and it revives you" type deal. But he can use it 10 times max going off his own page so he can't spam it indefinitely, but it would help him get enough time to find a tactic to take superman down.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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He can only be knocked unconscious by extreme amounts of damage that doesn't outright kill him (IE impaling him or cutting him in half, just beating him unconscious with blunt force hasn't worked since before his Z-Era upgrades) or lack of energy.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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That.... Literally doesn't make any sense. Is or is he not striking Zero with an infinite AP advantage? Either Zero explodes or Supes isn't using all his strength, there is no in-between here.
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But Superman has used instant death full on strikes in his comics and just ko’d people rather than killing them. Like when he punched through everything the world forger had (at the time) and only ko’d him despite hitting him with enough power to obliterate all the stuff that scales directly to him.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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That just sounds like inconsistent bullshit that doesn't abide by our standards then if he was using a killing blow but only knocked him out.
TheHedgememe
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He'd probably start using them once he realizes his weapons don't do anything to the guy.
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I’ll try to find more examples since I know comics books do it a lot. (Unfortunately this is so much easier to find for other characters like Thor with god blast, I know Superman has done it though, world forger most prime example that comes to mind). Be back after work sometime
TyranoDoom30
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Zero FRA
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Are there other haxes that Zero can use to kill Superman? Information manipulation is being contested right now, so before that debate continues, I want to know if Zero has other, less controversial means of winning.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Layered AZ that bypasses the resistance to it in the first place. Supes may have resisted a colder temperature but this is bypassing the resistance altogether, so I don't see why that wouldn't hurt him.
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It can hurt him, but is it enough to incap him? Especially given Clark's heat manipulation?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Potentially not a one-shot but at the same time this will hurt. I'm not sure if Clark will even have the time to use it if Zero uses Time Stopper and starts spamming it on him.
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Point taken, that's one potential win-con for Zero.
Admittedly, Superman seems to have a larger quantity of moves to take down Zero, it's gonna come down to which will run out first: Zero's Cyber Elves or Superman's endurance?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I personally think Clark will fall first by that metric since Zero also has other Cyber Elves aside from his ten revives that can restore his ammo supply or energy reserves in case he runs out of Time Stopper to keep him in the game as well as to boost his speed to give him more time to work with outside of his Time Stopper. They're not huge boosts but certainly useful for keeping him alive a little longer alongside his teleportation.
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