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Regarding Mew and Arceus

White Smoke only prevents Stat Reduction caused by the opponent, self-inflicted Stat Reduction still happens.
 
This is what happens when you suggest giving someone a hundred different Passives at once, of which quite a few counteract against each other.
 
Everything12 said:
White Smoke only prevents Stat Reduction caused by the opponent, self-inflicted Stat Reduction still happens.
Click to expand...
technically, even if the contrary ability alters stat changes, this doesn't apply to Z moves (I don't know about dynamax), so maybe it only applies to typical moves
 
Aerilate, Galvanize, Pilxilate, and Refrigerate all turn Normal Type moves into a different Type, while Normalize makes all moves Normal Type.

All Weather creating Abilities will be canceled out except Desolate Land, Primordial Sea, and Delta Stream, which I have no idea how they will work.

Aura Break will reverse its own Fairy Aura and Dark Aura, decreasing the power of Fairy and Darks moves used instead of increasing them.

Abilties like Battle Bond, Disguise, Stance Change, Zen Mode, and other such Abilities won't work because of how they function.

The Surge moves all turn the Terrain into a different one so they would conflict like the Weather ones.

And any Abilities that changes Types probably won't work because of Multitype.

And if I looked further into this I could probably find more contradictory Abilties.
 
For abilities like Contrary and Speed Boost, I just dont think they would apply at all. Arceus's stats here are not exactly numerical, especially as an omnipresent. So speed boost would be pretty useless for anything above MFTL+.

Aerilate, Galvanize, Pilxilate & Refrigerate aren't as bad either. They wouldnt effect Judgement since Judgements specifically only affected by Multi-type. And if you ask me, 4 passives > 1. The one ability that makes moves a normal type should just by overidden by the 4 abilities that make normal type moves other types.

Weather creation is just irrelevant to Arceus in general. Does Aura Break work on the user or only the opponent?

Battle Bond shouldnt honestly go to Arceus, it seems much more like a human made ability (looking at you Ash); Stance Change just seems more like apart of Aegislash's biology/physiology as a sword + shield; Zen Mode is the same as Stance Change as its form based rather than a regular passive.

Surge moves are irrelevant to Arceus, and even then, he wouldnt use them all at once. Thats an easy fix.

Type-Changing abilities like Protean wouldnt conflict with Multi-type. If anything, that actually helps Arceus since he wouldnt need to change type with the plates but just moves.
 
Well, since I have some time, I am going to put passive skills that can be a bit conflicting:

Abilities that change the type of the movements (are the ones I found), although this may not make sense due to the control of the tables by arceus

Contrary, because exists abilities like Boost or Download (answered?)

Imposter, although it may not be useful due to the non-bodily nature of arceus

All passive weather altering skills

White Smoke and Mirror armor

Serene grace and Sheer Force

Rivalry, Or would it be activated only when the opponent does not have gender either?

Unaware and all the plates

Stall (lol)

Note: I preferred not to mention skills that would be rendered useless by others, such as Steadfast for Inner Focus
 
I addressed the type changing abilities already.

For Imposter, I dont think it would conflict with Arceus as much as you'd think. After all, his physical form is just an Avatar. Arceus doesn't need it to make any actions physically, so i'd argue that Arceus's avatar would just passively transform into the opponent while his true self can still use everything Arceus himself has.

White Smoke and Mirror Armor: Again, anything involving stat altering is irrelevant to Arceus since his stats arent numerical as a 2-B

Serene Grace and Sheer Force don't seem to be much of a conflict. The latter removes additional effects after increasing the moves power, which to me, just seems like Serene Grace's ability being a temporary passive.

Rivalry is gender-reliant so id argue Rivalry just wouldnt work for Arceus at all.

Unaware just ignores the opponents stat changes, how does that conflict with Arceus's plates?

Stall is the same as Slow Start, only in this case Arceus would never be pit against someone slower than him here. Plus, Speed Equalization makes this ability completely ineffective.
 
White Smoke and Mirror Armor: Again, anything involving stat altering is irrelevant to Arceus since his stats arent numerical as a 2-B

I mentioned this because white smoke overrides negative stat changes, while Mirror Armor reflects them when the opponent tries to produce them. Would the second ability be nullified by the first, or would the second just redirect it regardless of the first?

Unaware just ignores the opponents stat changes, how does that conflict with Arceus's plates?

I meant Klutz
 
Hard no for Mew, but yes for Arceus.

Draco Meteor isn't a man-made move. You don't have any proof to suggest that it is, and there's proof to suggest otherwise.

  • In Rise of Darkrai, Dialga uses it. Dialga is wild.
  • A wild Gible uses it in the Eevee and Friends short.
  • Mega Rayquaza uses it in the Mega Evolution Special II. Mega Rayquaza is wild.
  • All Dragon-types in Explorers of Time/Sky/Darkness can learn it naturally at level 72, provided they have 300 IQ points. How would a man-made move exist in a world without man?
    • I also could've sworn something uses it in the first Pokepark game, but don't quote me on this.
So the argument that Mew can't learn Draco Meteor because it's man-made goes out the window. It simply can't learn it. Ergo, Mew cannot use every move except through Metronome.

Mew also can't learn Secret Sword, which exists naturally as shown in the Kyurem movie, and which Keldeo can learn naturally. It would be ridiculous to assume that Keldeo's existence predates Mew, or that Keldeo is an alien.

Mew also can't learn any of the Eevee/Pikachu exclusive moves in Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee. I don't recall anything about them being man-made.

The key word here is Mew can use every move, not learn. It isn't an unsubstantiated leap in logic if it explicitly cannot be taught a move that exists naturally, and Metronome is the only way to reconcile that with the dex entry.

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@Nemo

Using the anime isnt an argument against Cals points, TM moves in general can be learned naturally in the anime, and this has happened several times. Tutor moves are the only things pokemon in the anime cannot learn on their own.

Also, humans do exist in Mystery Dungeon. The literal point of the game is that the main protag, who was once a Human, becomes a pokemon.
 
@Nemo

Real answer: Mew can't learn it because of game mechanics. Every piece of lore regarding it talks about Mew being the ancestor to all 'mons, having the DNA of every 'mon, and that it can use all moves. The only things contradicting this are moves that can only be teached to starters and dragon types in-game by the Tutoring mechanic ( and Crabhammer, which is certainly weird )

However, I do agree that Cal is relying on unfounded speculation with that "well its man-made".
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
@Nemo
Using the anime isnt an argument against Cals points, TM moves in general can be learned naturally in the anime, and this has happened several times. Tutor moves are the only things pokemon in the anime cannot learn on their own.

Also, humans do exist in Mystery Dungeon. The literal point of the game is that the main protag, who was once a Human, becomes a pokemon.
Click to expand...
The profiles are composites from the games, anime, and manga, why wouldn't it be?

My point is that there's no human tutors to teach them Draco Meteor in Mystery Dungeon, they learn it naturally by level-up.
 
I'm also going to bring up Relic Song: not man-made, doesn't predate Mew, and Meloetta isn't an alien.
 
You say it's a game mechanic, but I don't see how that is. There was a clear choice made to have Mew learn move tutor moves, but not Pokemon-specific moves.

To further back up my previous point, a wild Meloetta uses Relic Song in Vol. 48 of the Adventures manga, indicating that it isn't a man-made move.
 
Because those moves were programmed to be learned only by the specific pokémon. That is literally it.

Still all lore mentions of Mew indicates it does can learn every single move.

That's all there is to it.

Edit: We can try to theorize and postulate literally all possible explanations, but every single one of them are headcanon at best. The lore states Mew learns everything, and the only thing that contradict this are specific moves programmed to only be teached to specific 'mons.
 
Also, Arceus also can't learn every move.

Does it seem logical that the creature that spawned everything, stated to live through and be a part of everything that exists, can't learn how to shoot water from it's mouth? To literally spit at something?

Of course it isn't. But it was programmed like that for the sake of the game itself, in spite of the lore.
 
That's not a game mechanic. A game mechanic would be like the Lanturn in Gen III's Victory Road that knows Earthquake, despite the fact that Lanturn can't learn Earthquake by any means available to the player, including the Earthquake TM.

The games, anime, and manga are the primary canon, not the Pokedex. Oftentimes, the Pokedex is useful for information not directly seen in the games. If it supports the primary canon, we can use it. When the Pokedex contradicts the primary canon, it ought to be thrown out the window. Not the other way around.
 
@Nemo

I don't know what else to tell ya except I disagree with you and explained my position. Mew gets everything imo.
 
In Masters it is also said that Mew can use any move, and about Arceus, it is not that Arceus itself is getting all the abilities, but more like the Original Spirit is the one getting all the abilities.
 
Pretty much every Pokedex entry says Vullaby is too small to fly, and yet, Vullaby has been able to learn Fly by TM/HM in every generation.

The Pokedex says Magcargo is hotter than the sun, and yet, this girl isn't burning to a crisp .

Lanturn would be 3-A if we took the Pokedex as gospel.

The Pokedex for Tentacruel says it has 40 tentacles when it clearly doesn't. You can see them.

Cubone's skull belongs to its dead mother, when it hatches from an egg with the skull already on.

The Pokedex has been wrong before, and we've thrown it out the window before. This wouldn't be any different.
 
Nemo212 said:
The Pokedex says Magcargo is hotter than the sun, and yet, this girl isn't burning to a crisp
Click to expand...
Hotter or less hot than the sun doesn't matter, Magcargo is still made entirely of magma, that picture is clearly a mistake of the animators and writers of the anime like the scene where Pikachu defeats a Golem with Thunderbolt.

Basically, no matter what Magcargo's pokédex entry is, that image makes no ******* sense.

(I also seem to remember that it was implied once that fire-type pokémon can control their body temperature.)

About Tentacruel, there is the possibility that Tentacruel hides a lot of his tentacles and also the fact that it is stated that the older a Tentacruel is, the less tentacles it will have. There is also the fact that the number of tentacles that Tentacruel shows is not always the same, and that Tentacruel was introduced in Gen 1, where basically making a sprite with 40 tentacles is basically impossible.
 
Magma is 700-1300 C (1300-2400 F), so it isn't hot enough to melt iron {1538 C / 2800 F} (which explains why a minecraft bucket can hold lava), but it should totally light that girl on fire like Katniss Everdeen. I work around ovens that deal with these kind of temperatures...bare skin touching will blister you with minimal contact.

Fire Pokemon like Ponyta and Rapidash (at least according to the anime) can control their flame temp so as not to harm their riders (unless they don't like you, then you're getting BBQ'ed).
 
In addition to what Neo said about Tentacruel, many jellyfish have tentacles varying in size for different purposes, some visible, some microscopic.

As for Lanturn, that's an obvious case of writers not knowing how much energy the light would need. It's not exactly uncommon throughout fiction to have things like underwater temples, spells, etc at the bottom of the Ocean glow in ways where the light is visible from the surface, yet for some reason Lanturn seems to be the only case that gets used to try to discredit a large portion of a verse's canon.
 
Nemo212 said:
Pretty much every Pokedex entry says Vullaby is too small to fly, and yet, Vullaby has been able to learn Fly by TM/HM in every generation.
Click to expand...
Dodrio and Dotrio can learn fly too despite not even having wings ...

"Cubone's skull belongs to its dead mother, when it hatches from an egg with the skull already on."

It's more that breeding doesn't make sense, like Kangaskan is born with a baby already in her pouch
 
Nemo212 said:
The profiles are composites from the games, anime, and manga, why wouldn't it be?

My point is that there's no human tutors to teach them Draco Meteor in Mystery Dungeon, they learn it naturally by level-up.
Click to expand...
Because, like I said, the anime (that your using as a counter argument) has shown Pokemon naturally learning moves that normally would need a TM.

If anything, that raises the argument that TM's and HM's in general are just game mechanics and that Pokemon can naturally learn those moves (Mystery Dungeon would be evidence of this, but thats an entirely different discussion).
 
I don't even see why you're bringing up TMs in the first place. Draco Meteor isn't a TM. This whole tangent is a non-sequitur.

The anime clearly demonstrates they can learn tutor moves as well, as evidenced by the three anime examples I brought up previously.
 
Nemo212 said:
Pretty much every Pokedex entry says Vullaby is too small to fly, and yet, Vullaby has been able to learn Fly by TM/HM in every generation.
The Pokedex says Magcargo is hotter than the sun, and yet, this girl isn't burning to a crisp .

Lanturn would be 3-A if we took the Pokedex as gospel.

The Pokedex for Tentacruel says it has 40 tentacles when it clearly doesn't. You can see them.

Cubone's skull belongs to its dead mother, when it hatches from an egg with the skull already on.

The Pokedex has been wrong before, and we've thrown it out the window before. This wouldn't be any different.
Click to expand...
First of all, some of these examples are not even as wrong your making them out to be.

Magcargo isnt hotter than the sun, its inner core/heart in the body is that hot. Not its entire body. So Magcargo wouldnt burn someone just by touching them.

Vullaby being "too small to fly" doesnt mean it cant fly at all. Context can also mean it just cant fly freely fo prolounged periods of times like Mandibuzz and several other flying types can. Plus, Fly as a move isnt the best example when its just jumping into the air and falling back down as an aerial strike.

Tentacruel having 80 tentacles isnt wrong, it loses tentacles as it ages. The Sun/Moon pokedex entries flat out state this.

Cubone I know has been answered here before but I forgot what. Either way, while the Pokedex isnt obviously 100% correct, we only throw out the dex entries that are prove to be hyperoble. Otherwise, we take them.
 
Can we also bring up how in the Anime, they don't stick to the logic of the Pokemon games? For example, Pikachu mixing two different moves together, same with many of the Star Pokemon like when there was Ice Aqua Jet. Then there's Pikachu learning illegal moves like Iron tail and Volt tackle.

Like, the anime isn't consistant with the rest of the pokemon Media.
 
It does follow it though. A pokemon has a special attack, attack, defense, speed and hp stat that works just like in the game. Hell even status effect moves work the same.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Either way, while the Pokedex isnt obviously 100% correct, we only throw out the dex entries that are prove to be hyperoble. Otherwise, we take them.
Click to expand...
Checkmate.

The Mew Pokedex entries have been proven to be hyperbole. Even the OP acknowledges that Mew cannot learn moves that are man-made, older than it, or alien in nature. Even without taking into consideration that Mew can't learn Draco Meteor, this would go directly against the dex entry's statements.

Mew gets the boot.
 
Nemo212 said:
Checkmate.

The Mew Pokedex entries have been proven to be hyperbole. Even the OP acknowledges that Mew cannot learn moves that are man-made, older than it, or alien in nature. Even without taking into consideration that Mew can't learn Draco Meteor, this would go directly against the dex entry's statements.

Mew gets the boot.
Click to expand...
How?

Bar a number of moves they cannot get because they're

A: Not a Starter

B: Can't get due to Game mechanics or Balancing issues

Mew has every move.

Do I need to bring up again how they're different, Dark Void nearly never missed ever but in the game has nearly the same accuracy rating as Fissure and Sheer Cold, only by 20% are they different and this was changed due to purely Balancing from a Pokemon who shouldn't have been able to use the ability (Smeargle)
 
Udlmaster said:
Can we also bring up how in the Anime, they don't stick to the logic of the Pokemon games? For example, Pikachu mixing two different moves together, same with many of the Star Pokemon like when there was Ice Aqua Jet. Then there's Pikachu learning illegal moves like Iron tail and Volt tackle.
Like, the anime isn't consistant with the rest of the pokemon Media.
Click to expand...
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I mean, you're kind of right, but kind of not. Regardless, decompositing the anime and everything else is a whole other CRT.
 
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