Regarding Parliaments, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man (Post-Crisis)

[Planck69]

@Y3kthunder

Nobody here has the time to go through that at all. You'll have to post the specific scans that prove what you're claiming.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Im asking you to be slightly accommodating to make this easier (or so i dont have to retype this all out) plz read the misconceptions section in the following link i did put it in there just scroll through it till you find it shouldn't take long at all You my find it Here

Having read that, it doesn’t actually address any of my points, and the Word even says that the game of cards will not be binding in two years

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Y3kthunder

Nobody here has the time to go through that at all. You'll have to post the specific scans that prove what you're claiming.

I just did, you wound me greatly

 

[Y3kthunder]

Nobody here has the time to go through that at all. You'll have to post the specific scans that prove what you're claiming.

I didn't say read the whole thing i said read the misconceptions section its literally the second thing i explain on there an youll know you hit it cause the first image is the word itll take five minutes to read if that vs my 20 minutes to retype

 

[Planck69]

@Yobo_Blue
Man, you have far more patience than I do.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Swampy became the earth

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I didn't say read the whole thing i said read the misconceptions section its literally the second thing i explain on there an youll know you hit it cause the first image is the word itll take five minutes to read if that vs my 20 minutes to retype

If anything the scans there are further evidence to my point, as the Word explicitly says that if he would not be able to intervene cause of Blake that Swamp Thing would be able to achieve his goal of wiping out God and his followers

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Swampy became the earth

Again, already addressed why that isn’t really relevant here

 

[Y3kthunder]

What god is

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Here is the Writer writing the event regarding the Overvoid level Red:

We can see David Bohm's Book next to him as he writes it. Plus we have this when he meets the writer:

So, this issue is where The Writer is, story wise, very much hands on. So, I would like to ask on how would he clarify on whether the feat is by The Red or The Writer.

 

[Planck69]

Swampy became the earth

This is just a form of size fallacy. Same as saying any person who puts focus on a planet is only 5-B.

 

[Y3kthunder]

He became the earth an never surpassed god as god was technically long gone as he was the atom that split into the universe an when worlds reached enlightenment as swampy did they coukd see him check mate

 

[Amakasu]

No. I don't remember Body of God being anything more than a title to refer to Buddy's unborn child who is supposed to be the "map" of the Universe.

No, what I meant to say was when animal man takes the soul of the world upon himself and wear or become the body of god, easily defeating the spider queen.

The Soul more to say. The oy relation of it with the Presence, from what I can remember, is that God sees the World as a single Soul.

I don't understand what you said. Can you be more clear?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Here is the Writer writing the event regarding the Overvoid level Red:

We can see David Bohm's Book next to him as he writes it. Plus we have this when he meets the writer:

So, this issue is where The Writer is, story wise, very much hands on. So, I would like to ask on how would he clarify on whether the feat is by The Red or The Writer.

Uh, that’s not the event referenced by the OP, nor is it even brought up anywhere in it

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Uh, that’s not the event referenced by the OP, nor is it even brought up anywhere in it

That's literally used for Red being 1A, possibly High 1A

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Unless what you’re referring to is the nature of the red itself

in which case

yeah? Of course the writer wrote out what the nature of the Red is lol. No one every disputed that. That doesn’t change the fact that it is what it was written to be. By this logic, no cosmology in DC would ever be legitimate because it would just be attributed to the Writer. The fact is, within the bounds of the story as written by the writer, the Red is explicitly the one revealing the three secrets to animal man

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That's literally used for Red being 1A, possibly High 1A

Yeah, I understand what you meant now. My bad.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

It isn't though. The Writer wrote the scene explicity, story wise, when Buddy says " 'Entertainment', he says" its referring to the conversation with The Writer. In Issue 26 The Writer changes the issue back so when Buddy reaches his home the event of his family's murder doesn't occur. So, I am.asking for clarification on how you want to consider the feat.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It isn't though. The Writer wrote the scene explicity, story wise, when Buddy says " 'Entertainment', he says" its referring to the conversation with The Writer. In Issue 26 The Writer changes the issue back so when Buddy reaches his home the event of his family's murder doesn't occur. So, I am.asking for clarification on how you want to consider the feat.

What scene are you referring to? That scene was literally in issue 25, and no one is saying the red was the one reverting the changes. The entertainment scene is just a conversation the writer has, which has nothing to do with the scans mentioned whatsoever. The ones mentioned are those about the secrets revealed to Animal Man when he learns of the second crisis

 

[Amakasu]

Isn't red literally fodder to the imaginary kingdoms which inturn are contained and supprased by the soul of the world?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Isn't red literally fodder to the imaginary kingdoms which inturn are contained and supprased by the soul of the world?

No? I already addressed that earlier and no one has given evidence to support this claim

 

[Deleted member 2530]

The red is actually the World of Soul in the Imaginal Worlds

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note regarding that I am fine with 1-A, but find High 1-A to be extremely exaggerated for the DC Comics setting as a whole, much less The Swamp Thing or Animal Man.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The red is actually the World of Soul in the Imaginal Worlds

Again, the Red very clearly contains it and is connected to it, but they aren’t synonymous, especially since the spider queen is explicitly bound to the world of imagination

even if they were above the red it wouldn‘t really change the tiering of the OP, since it is specifically the implicate order stuff that gives that tier and it would just mean the God states of swamp thing and such would exceed it

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Just a note regarding that I am fine with 1-A, but find High 1-A to be extremely exaggerated for the DC Comics setting as a whole, much less The Swamp Thing or Animal Man.

I mean, if DC needs to be downgraded, that would be its own thread and isn’t relevant to this revision.

 

[Antvasima]

True enough, but I thought that you strictly wanted Swamp Thing to be 1-A. What is the reason for High 1-A?

 

[Y3kthunder]

True enough, but I thought that you strictly wanted Swamp Thing to be 1-A. What is the reason for High 1-A?

They believe in a story that he was strictly planetary that he was equal to the presence with 3/4 of the parliaments of a single world an with all four he surpassed him. Then theyre scaling him to what theyve stated for animal man
Is what i got out of it

 

[Yobo_Blue]

True enough, but I thought that you strictly wanted Swamp Thing to be 1-A. What is the reason for High 1-A?

In regards to the Red having access to the layers of existence behind limbo and reaching into the Overvoid as well as seeing the nature of the entirety of continuity, retcons, and the plot. Swamp Thing would be above that for numerous reasons detailed above

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Oh also about the stuff regarding how the Overvoid is the implicate order of DC

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you would need to scale between stories, cosmologies, and authors several decades apart, with no connection to each other to reach High 1-A, and I think that we strictly scale Yahweh and The Great Evil Beast to 1-A in the first place. We do not consider them to be entirety of The Precence/The Source of Creativity. In fact, in Morrison's cosmology, Yahweh seems to just be one of many deities in the sphere of gods, so such an enormously exaggerated tier seems shaky at best.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

I would appreciate your assistance here.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, you would need to scale between stories, cosmologies, and authors several decades apart, with no connection to each other to reach High 1-A, and I think that we strictly scale Yahweh and The Great Evil Beast to 1-A in the first place. We do not consider them to be entirety of The Precence/The Source of Creativity. In fact, in Morrison's cosmology, Yahweh seems to just be one of many deities in the sphere of gods, so such an enormously exaggerated tier seems shaky at best.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

I would appreciate your assistance here.

No connection to each other is blatantly false, the cosmology in final crisis is explicitly first explained in Animal Man according to Morrison, in the very same word of God that we use to tier The Source and the Overvoid. In fact, Morrison explicitly affirms that God and the Source and the Overvoid are one and the same, which is what we used to make them High 1-A


also not sure how Yahweh factors in here, as the Presence is explicitly below Swamp Thing’s god state

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that I misremembered then. I thought that you wanted to scale Swamp Thing from Alan Moore's old stories. I have an awful lot of threads to juggle.

Please summarise your reasoning to remind me what you intend to do and why.

 

[Y3kthunder]

But swampy is literally not above the presence in anyway. you have statements of God swampy rivaling the voice an aspect of the presence. Despite this alex daughter said the word could kill swampy when he supposedly was a rival. An that she was the only one who knew how to beat him. Like wise there is no evidence that he surpassed him when he did take over the world. As the voice never once even bothered to show up and or intervine. And on top of that you have the worlds state swampy became just the earth and that god was the atom that created the universe it was only now swampy could get his understanding tht he so longed for. So there is no evidence that he is beyond him in anyway

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Well, I suppose that I misremembered then. I thought that you wanted to scale Swamp Thing from Alan Moore's old stories. I have an awful lot of threads to juggle.

Please summarise your reasoning to remind me what you intend to do and why.

Of course, it might take a bit though, as I’m slightly busy irl today, hope you don’t mind

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Damage3245

I would appreciate you input here as well btw. I have to switch to my edit-patrolling tasks in the wiki very soon.

 

[Antvasima]

You as well @Sera_EX .

 

[Antvasima]

Of course, it might take a bit though, as I’m slightly busy irl today, hope you don’t mind

No problem.

 

[Deagonx]

I think we need to apply a higher level of scrutiny to the scans being presented and the OP's description of them. One by one. To be clear, I have not read either of these storylines in a long time, but the evidence ought to be accessible even to people who aren't super familiar with it.

by the four parliaments were specifically for the purpose of overthrowing the Presence, with the Word, who exists to protect god, agreeing this will come to pass.

So where in this scan does it say they were "specifically for the purpose of Overthrowing the Presence" and where does the Word agree that it will come to pass? He says the reason he was born was to defeat the Word, not the Presence. The stone faces say that Alec's mission is to "rid this world of your God and his hateful followers." That might just mean removing religion from the Earth, but likewise, where does the Word agree to this? He says "You do not understand. It is you who are leaving."

John Constantine had used the magic of the Parliament of Flames to strip him of his godhood and turn him into a human, as he had already become equal to God with just 3/4 of the powers of the parliaments.

It is said that his abilities rivaled the Voice, not that they were equal with God. The Voice is only a single aspect of God, not the true Godhead itself.

Additionally, Tefé, who’s powers are drawn only from the Green and a limited amount of the Red, was able to create a form with the ability to simulate the voice of The Presence to cancel out the word.

How does this scan indicate that he "simulated the voice of the Presence?"

In regard to the red, contrary to popular belief, the Post-Crisis Red is not actually a parliament in the same sense as the green, more does it share a dichotomy with it like in Post-flashpoint, but rather is closer to the analogue of the other four parliaments, which govern the elements of the earth, while the Red governs living organisms. The nature of the red is a existence that is The Implicate Order of all living beings who exist, have existed, will ever exist, and could ever exist.

Are we sure that these "reds" are referring to the same thing? Likewise, from where are we ascertaining that the M-Field is the red?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

@Deagonx
i read you loud and clear, and I actually have a few elaborations to make, but you don’t mind if they wait until tomorrow for the reasons I mentioned above ye?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Deagonx.