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Regarding Parliaments, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man (Post-Crisis)
- Thread starter Yobo_Blue
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hmmmm, ok, but that may take a while, unless you want to put this on hold so I can gather numbers and you can finish up the other DC revisions first, like downgrading it to High 1-A or whatever else you were referring to
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Just for when he does make his post i want you to keep this in mind.
"So basically the word learned of a plot against the voice and went to a man named blake (forget his last name) who was seemily behind this. We learn that swamp thing is to become as powerful as the voice in the future??? How can this be? Well lemme continue. So the word tells blake to stop swamp thing from what he was doing or he'd destroy him but blake refused telling the word there were rules he had to follow and challenges him to a game of cards, they play three rounds and blake loses,
so the word declares he shall kill swamp thing, but blake tells him no he won't, the word senses blake did something (honestly not sure what it was) and decides to leave for a few years.
In the meantime swamp thing follows his destiny by going to each of the parliaments and uniting them and becoming there champion. Few years later swampy has become the champion to all the parliaments except fire and seemily has a plan to destroy all humans, so phantom stranger wakes up the word who goes out to demand the parliaments to stop alec but each refuse and are destroyed.
Holland's daughter knows the way to stop the word
but after hearing that alec plains to destroy the world her mom places her daughter with the authorities and constantine (seemily on the side of the word) goes to alec and strips him of his power for one hour with wishing matches.
The word shows up to kill holland and the have a little chat. Holland is upset that the voice doesn't do more ie stop wars,famine, etc and wishes to replace him as the thing that shapes the world, he wanted humans to have there own voice and not blindly follow the voice.
In the meantime constantine and Holland's wife have second thoughts and free Holland's
daughter who unspeaks the word.
Finally holland is confronted by the parliament of fire and succeeds in it's trial officially gaining full control of the earth. Wait so this means he is more powerful the the voice he can beat the presence right??? Haha no lemme finish, after swamp thing becomes the earth (and yes you heard that right he became just the earth) he was confronted by the parliament of worlds who reveal that alec holland was dead and gone to heaven (cannot be without the presence)
and while there it's revealed that to them God was the primordial atom and when it split he seemily died and the universe was formed but when certain things reach illumination they could see God.
Sorry about the copy paste but. Then again you have the issue where it was stated swmpy coukd not beat the word an aspect of the voice who is an aspect of the presence despite him supposedly rivling him at this point an theres the issue where the voice simply never bothered to show up or intervine in anyway
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Edited my post above i guess i forgot a scan my bad
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I share the same opinion as Ultima.
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Well, given that PrinceOfTheMorning, ClassicNESfan, and now likely LuciferDC099, all seem to be missing, the revisions unfortunately may never happen, as I am far far too overworked with constantly handling most of the organisation and edit-patrolling for this community, to be able to properly organise them myself.
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I remember seeing DarkSmash saying they where panning on doing a DC Downgrade thread.
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The bulk of these scans come from unsourced and cropped comic scans. I'm not making any positive decision until the OP gives issue numbers
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Uh, i admit they’re unsourced and I’m sourcing them but none of them are cropped as far as I can tell
id appreciate you giving an example so I can fix it at least instead of making unfounded claims
its possible one of the scans I got I cropped the watermark out but I’m pretty sure I didn’t even do that much
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It's nigh impossible to do that currently, there's a huge DC revisions that will talk about it
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It will probably take a couple years like Umineko lol.
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I saw this when I referred to cropped. Sorry if it emphasized that point if that was the issue.
But them being all unsourced is probably the larger problem and I'm not backing anything until they are.
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Ok, there's some shaky reasoning here, especially the common misconception that the Presence using agents like the Spectre/ The Word or whatever means that he's incapable of handling a threat or that they somehow can do something that the Presence cant. Being stated to be more powerful than the Word doesn't mean you're more powerful than the Presence. The Presence needing a guard to protect him/it from anything is non sensical, its as if saying that the Presence can't protect itself while something like the Word, who is merely the Product of an aspect of the Presence somehow can, duties shouldn't be conflated with power. We shouldn't scale someone defeating/matching the Word just as we don't scale someone to the Presence just because he/she defeated the The Radiance/The Spectre. The Presence himself didn't even appear during the whole thing, let's not forget that The Presence's intentions and motives are incomprehensible even to beings like Lucifer/Spectre/The Word so just because they said this and that about the Presence doesn't necessarily mean that they are true.
Just an example of how incomprehensible the Presence is even to guys like the Word
Destiny of the Endless was already tracking The Word in his book before it even exists. Destiny was said to be a side effect of the Presence's deterministic approach to Creation and that Destiny's Book, as he himself said, was based on the Script of the Presence. So The Word's path and destiny was already decided even before he came into existence, him eliminating "threats" to the Presence is just him playing an already predetermined role, him being the Presence's "bodyguard" is just an illusion just like how Lucifer's rebellion is just an illusion.
Also, at the end of the day, the Word is just vibration and as demonstrated multiple times you don't need raw power to cancel vibrations. Superman was able to stop the destruction of the omniverse because of counter vibrations but that doesn't mean he's an omniversal being, no, it just mechanics of the verse. Tefe also wasn't the only one who was able to defeat a "vibration based" entity that was the product of the Voice. Crazy Jane was able to stop the Decreator, which is like the dark twin of the Word, by using counter vibration and frequencies
Just an example of how incomprehensible the Presence is even to guys like the Word
Destiny of the Endless was already tracking The Word in his book before it even exists. Destiny was said to be a side effect of the Presence's deterministic approach to Creation and that Destiny's Book, as he himself said, was based on the Script of the Presence. So The Word's path and destiny was already decided even before he came into existence, him eliminating "threats" to the Presence is just him playing an already predetermined role, him being the Presence's "bodyguard" is just an illusion just like how Lucifer's rebellion is just an illusion.
Also, at the end of the day, the Word is just vibration and as demonstrated multiple times you don't need raw power to cancel vibrations. Superman was able to stop the destruction of the omniverse because of counter vibrations but that doesn't mean he's an omniversal being, no, it just mechanics of the verse. Tefe also wasn't the only one who was able to defeat a "vibration based" entity that was the product of the Voice. Crazy Jane was able to stop the Decreator, which is like the dark twin of the Word, by using counter vibration and frequencies
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Another thing that is not mentioned here is that turning Swamp-Thing into God Swamp Thing required prep. More than a billion of years of prep and requires events not related to the Parliaments like The Illumination of the Damned or whatever else happened in those 1 billion years.
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@Sandman31
The Word being bound by the Presence's fate doesn't really equal to the latter in incompreensible by the former
The Word being bound by the Presence's fate doesn't really equal to the latter in incompreensible by the former
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The Book of Destiny represents Creation/Presence's plan, the Presence is beyond that, being bound by the Book of Destiny means you're unable to completely perceive the plans, motives and the Presence itself as you're just one of the characters in the Presence's Script.
Even Elaine with the Demiurgic power cant comprehend the Presence so the Presence has to assume a form that her mind can grasp.
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@Sandman31
would that even apply to the Parliaments considering the Red has shown to be able to reach into the Overvoid, which is expicidly outside of the Presence's creation ?
would that even apply to the Parliaments considering the Red has shown to be able to reach into the Overvoid, which is expicidly outside of the Presence's creation ?
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There's nothing that indicating that this was the Overvoid, no proof aside from him saying he is seeing "you" (the reader) which is merely breaking the 4th wall. You don't need to be in the Overvoid in order to break the 4th wall 1, 2
Not to mention that this is just a hallucination, so its not like he's traversing the Red and somehow end up in the Overvoid or whatever that place was, the thing is when you're hallucinating you're able to do things that is actually impossible. If I hallucinate that I walked from Earth to the Moon that doesnt mean I can actually walk or go from Earth to Moon, since in the end you're only traveling within your mind. Is there proof that those are layers of the Red and are simply not just visions that appear in that order due to them being the 3 secret of the universe?
Seeing reaching into the Overvoid is just 1-A
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tell me another white void outside of creation in DC then
also, those are in fact, 1-A 4th wall breaking. The first is Superman Manhattan, who besides having the same powers as Dr and thus being 1-A, also was the cause of the creation of the Thought Robot (which as you may know is 1-A and also broke the 4th wall when he was in the Overvoid iirc)
the latter is litteraly just Animal Man Comic, aka 1-A fourth wall because Writer sheninigans, also Psycho Warper was doing haywire because of detecting the Yellow Aliens as far as i can tell, which are the agents of the Writer
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Is he in a white void though? No, he's in Arizona hallucinating.
Give me a scan that "explicitly" says that the Red is connected to the Overvoid.
He could be hallucinating about the Overvoid and that also means nothing.
Going from Hallucinating about the Red to Hallucinating about the Overvoid doesnt mean that both are connected.
You're hallucinating, not walking or exploring so the two dont need to be connected to each other if you're just going to hallucinate about them. I could hallucinate that I'm in my house, then next hallucinate about me being in the moon. That doesnt mean that I can go from my house to the moon
He wasn't the cause of Creation of the Thought Robot, all he did was broadcast the essence of Superman and Ultraman to the Monitor Sphere. You cant scale him to the Thought Robot because of that
What kind of reasoning is that? Captain Atom is the inspiration for Manhattan and we dont rate him as 1-A. We rate character via feats and not what their powers are based on
Also, thats not "Superman Manhattan" as far as I know there's no character with that name. His name is Captain Adam and he's supposed to be Captain Atom + Superman
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I haven't read much of it so its possible that I'm missing a ton context, if I do then please post them and the issue #
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Lucifer went outside Creation and his Creation is seperate from the Presence's yet he was still in Destiny's Book. The Creations of Lucifer and Elaine were also shown to be under the control of the Presence as he threatened to erase the 3 Creations
There's also the fact that the Presence said that everything that happened till at that point in time was a part of his plan and there were no errors in it. That scene where he decides whether to destroy Creation or save it is the only thing thats not part of the Plan and thats because he left it open
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i feel it's more of an abtract projection kind of deal, considering the Red is what is showing him stuff/sending him to the void
also i said that the Overvoid is explicidly outside on the Presence's creation, not explicidly anything about the Red
and would you know, the monitor sphere is 1-A and inhabited by fragments of the Overvoid
Considering how Mahattan has been intergrated into DC proper and how's been established that other universe variants of him have the same powers, Adam should scale
you mean, the blue colour, circle on the forehead and the backstory being the same don't give it away that's he's a parralel universe Mahattan ?
Oh, and btw there's also "can connect himself with The Overvoid)" on his profile
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Hadn't Lucifer broken out of the determinism thing by that point tho ?
God-Swamp Thing never overthrowed him, so yeah, no mistakes
Presence be hack
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i feel it's way more an abtract projection kind of deal, considering the Red is hat is showing him stuff/sending him to the void
It was stated to be a hallucination, they were using a very hallucinogenic plants or something so I'll say its hallucination. The Red might be the one showing them the hallucinations but they're still hallucinations
Hadn't Lucifer broken out of the determinism thing by that point tho ?
That was at the end of the series, he said he escaped predestination when he made his own Creation but thats obviously not the case as the scan above shows.
Considering how Mahattan has been intergrated into DC proper and how's been established that other universe variants of him have the same powers, Adam should scale
Unless they have feats that puts them at 1-A then, no, I dont think they should scale. Why should we scale different versions of characters to each other just because they're versions of each other?
Of course they'll have the same powers, they're version of each other. But why would we scale them to each other unless they were stated to have the same power level and have the feats to back it up
and would you know, the monitor sphere is 1-A and inhabited by fragments of the Overvoid
Thats just range and nothing else. And yeah, I know the Monitor Sphere is inhabited by 1-A beings, I'm the one who upgraded the to 1-A you know.
If you firmly believe that Captain Adam is 1-A then make a CRT because he's not 1-A right now
you mean, the blue colour, circle on the forehead and the backstory being the same don't give it away that's he's a parralel universe Mahattan ?
N52 Captain Atom is also blue, and also practically has the same back story. They're also both a Captain. So he's mostly/partly based on Captain Atom and partially to Manhattan which doesnt change the point that I'm trying to make,
Oh, and btw there's also "can connect himself with The Overvoid)" on his profile
Cool feat but that doesn't really make him 1-A.
How would you even define "1-A" 4th wall breaking? breaking the 4th wall doesnt have potency, they're all the same, unless you know a book where the characters can jump out and punch you in the face then yeah, that might be a more potent 4th wall break
It was stated to be a hallucination, they were using a very hallucinogenic plants or something so I'll say its hallucination. The Red might be the one showing them the hallucinations but they're still hallucinations
Hadn't Lucifer broken out of the determinism thing by that point tho ?
That was at the end of the series, he said he escaped predestination when he made his own Creation but thats obviously not the case as the scan above shows.
Considering how Mahattan has been intergrated into DC proper and how's been established that other universe variants of him have the same powers, Adam should scale
Unless they have feats that puts them at 1-A then, no, I dont think they should scale. Why should we scale different versions of characters to each other just because they're versions of each other?
Of course they'll have the same powers, they're version of each other. But why would we scale them to each other unless they were stated to have the same power level and have the feats to back it up
and would you know, the monitor sphere is 1-A and inhabited by fragments of the Overvoid
Thats just range and nothing else. And yeah, I know the Monitor Sphere is inhabited by 1-A beings, I'm the one who upgraded the to 1-A you know.
If you firmly believe that Captain Adam is 1-A then make a CRT because he's not 1-A right now
you mean, the blue colour, circle on the forehead and the backstory being the same don't give it away that's he's a parralel universe Mahattan ?
N52 Captain Atom is also blue, and also practically has the same back story. They're also both a Captain. So he's mostly/partly based on Captain Atom and partially to Manhattan which doesnt change the point that I'm trying to make,
Oh, and btw there's also "can connect himself with The Overvoid)" on his profile
Cool feat but that doesn't really make him 1-A.
How would you even define "1-A" 4th wall breaking? breaking the 4th wall doesnt have potency, they're all the same, unless you know a book where the characters can jump out and punch you in the face then yeah, that might be a more potent 4th wall break
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Sandman31 makes good sense to me, and he is likely our most knowledgeable currently active member regarding these issues, so we should listen to him.
What tier would you suggest scaling from all of the above?
What tier would you suggest scaling from all of the above?
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@Sandman31 but whenever lucifer leaves creation and goes to the overvoid, dosent that mean he's outside the plan? I remember the plan being strictly for creation and not the overvoid.
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It probably doesnt include the entire void but merely the beings/things Created by the Presence or things that originated from Presence's Creation. If the Presence's power is limited only in his Creation then I doubt he will be able to unmake Lucifer's and Elaine's Creation.
Plus the Plan has been going on even before Creation existed as shown by Destiny tracking even the Voice and the Word itself.
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Ah, I see. Also do you consider the white void to be the overvoid? I think it is because well beyond creation. Destiny on th map and many more.
Makes sense.
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Have to agree with Sandman.
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I do think God Swamp Thing should be rated higher, maybe even 1-A or whatever tier recreating Creation is
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