Reinforcing the idea of using Striking Strength.

[M3X_2.0]

Striking Strength is one of the most important statistics we have in our Standard Format for Character Profiles and yet, it's barely not used or developed the way it should be, like, at all.

The Striking Strength page says:

Striking Strength is the amount of physical force an individual can deal out in a single strike. In other words, it is the physical Attack Potency of an individual.

Striking Strength is the physical part of the attack potency, it's punches, kicks, headbutts, etc. This is one of the most common forms of attacks in all of fiction, if not the most common. But the issue is, our profiles barely reflects this idea. Take MCU Doctor Strange as the example. His Attack Potency says:

Attack Potency: Street level physically (Traded blows with Kaecilius, who casually decapitated a man with a blade), higher with Conjured Weaponry. Building level+ with Magic (Fought with Kaecilius), at least Large Country level+ with Sling Rings (Comparable to Wong who cut off Cull Obsidian's hand). Universe level+ Environmental Destruction with the Eye of Agamotto (Reckless manipulation of the Time Stone can break the space-time continuum, causing irreparable harm)

There is no need to say "Street level physically", this part of his AP goes to Striking Strength. Striking Strength IS also Attack Potency.

Characters who uses more than only physical attacks should have their physical attacks indexed on SS only, and the AP part of different attacks. There is no need to say that Strange has Street level AP, because this is his SS.

Another example. Satoru Gojo.

At least Large Town level (Could battle with Full Power Sukuna), higher with Blue & with Chants, even higher with Red, far higher with Black Flash (Knocked Sukuna unconscious with a gut punch[36])

No need to state his physical power here, saying he matched Sukuna, this goes to Striking Strength. Now, Blue and Red should definitely be on Attack Potency, since they are not physical attacks from Gojo. If Blue and Red are indexed as higher, then they are at least his physical AP.

Otherwise this statistic should be deleted. It's underused. We should reinforce the use of SS.

 

[KingTempest]

I feel like this should be a staff thread, since it's a fundamental aspect of the profiles, but it's pretty solid

 

[M3X_2.0]

I feel like this should be a staff thread, since it's a fundamental aspect of the profiles, but it's pretty solid

change it please

 

[KLOL506]

I'm pretty sure this was already made and rejected.

Personally, I'm not in favor of it because then you can't make match-ups with characters who might have weapons or abilities a tier above their base physical stats. It's still interesting to see characters lock fists with each other in similar AP departments.

But alas, I'm a filthy CGM. My vote means nothing here for approval.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We don't (or at least, shouldn't) reject or accept stuff based on their interaction with match ups. Versus Threads are just a side content we do.

 

[Duedate8898]

For so many profiles Striking Strength reads more like a redundancy as even you point out Striking Strengh is AP just a specific form of it. And by in large the community doesn't seem to give Striking Strength that much importance IMO as most profiles do appear to just end up with the same striking strength with AP with those that differetiate being in the minority. I'm currently failing to see an actual issue with the current state of things but if we were to change anything, it'd probably be best to just toss it out instead of a full overhaul to make the wider community give it more attention.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There is only one way for it to be redundant: A character being a physical fighter, like Yuji for example (pre PB at least).

Listing physical attacks in both AP and SS is wrong, because it should be on SS. So the redundancy comes from a previous mistake.

I’m not opposed to a deletion though.

 

[Duedate8898]

But as you said, SS is a part of AP in the first place. Physical attacks should be there because they're with AP. It's only not redundant if for some reason we stop treating SS as a form of AP. Which would both be unintuitive and complicating things with no greater benefit, except justifying the existence of Striking Strengh

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DontTalkDT has made multiple threads mentioning this. And I sort of agree it's redundant for the most part. For characters like Doctor Strange, it I agree Street level physically is redundant in AP section, but for I feel it's different for characters that alternate between physical attacks and using firearms. As some FPS characters are Wall level or Small Building level physically but varies between Street level to Tier 8 with weapons.

 

[Propellus]

Meh, I have no problem getting rid of striking strength entirely as it's rather a redundant extension for AP. Even then, I don't really see the problem in separating the characters physicals from whatever weapon/power they have in store

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think none of you are understanding what the point is.

A character that alternates between physical attacks and firearms would have his physicals listed in SS and firearms in AP.

That’s the whole point of SS, to index their physical part.

You’re not making their physical attacks less important, they are there, they are indexed.

Meh, I have no problem getting rid of striking strength entirely as it's rather a redundant extension for AP.

I take back what I said from removing SS. It absolutely SHOULDNT be removed. Take for example a character with 7-C energy attacks but 8-B punches. You can’t just not explain how strong they are by themselves, we have to index that, and shoving all that in AP is excessive.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think none of you are understanding what the point is.

A character that alternates between physical attacks and firearms would have his physicals listed in SS and firearms in AP.

That’s the whole point of SS, to index their physical part.

You’re not making their physical attacks less important, they are there, they are indexed.

I take back what I said from removing SS. It absolutely SHOULDNT be removed. Take for example a character with 7-C energy attacks but 8-B punches. You can’t just not explain how strong they are by themselves, we have to index that, and shoving all that in AP is excessive.

There also exist characters where their weapons are actually weaker than their tiers; how does being Tier 9 with weapons when they're tier 2 physically work by that logic? Now Tier 2 stuff in tier section but SS and Durability are Tier 2?

 

[Propellus]

I think none of you are understanding what the point is.

A character that alternates between physical attacks and firearms would have his physicals listed in SS and firearms in AP.

That’s the whole point of SS, to index their physical part.

You’re not making their physical attacks less important, they are there, they are indexed.

I take back what I said from removing SS. It absolutely SHOULDNT be removed. Take for example a character with 7-C energy attacks but 8-B punches. You can’t just not explain how strong they are by themselves, we have to index that, and shoving all that in AP is excessive.

What difference does it really make honestly? That we're just going to assume that whatever character is just going to be just flat out 9-A via their rocket launcher without ever noting their physicals at all in AP but just slap it onto SS, how does that make sense for the profiles?

 

[M3X_2.0]

how does being Tier 9 with weapons when they're tier 2 physically work by that logic?

You list the weapon in AP and the physical attacks in SS. That’s the whole point of striking strength.

Now Tier 2 stuff in tier section but SS and Durability are Tier 2?

That’s one mistake we do regarding our tiering. The opposite also happens: A character with weak/unknown SS doesn’t have this on his “Tier”, generally, only his AP is mentioned.

What difference does it really make honestly? That we're just going to assume that whatever character is just going to be just flat out 9-A via their rocket launcher without ever noting their physicals at all in AP but just slap it onto SS, how does that make sense for the profiles?

Yes? How that doesn’t make sense to you? What’s the issue of a character being 9-A via a rocket launcher listed in his AP but being 10-A physically? Why do you even need to mention their physical abilities in AP if you have an entire statistic dedicated to this?

 

[Propellus]

Yes? How that doesn’t make sense to you? What’s the issue of a character being 9-A via a rocket launcher listed in his AP but being 10-A physically? Why do you even need to mention their physical abilities in AP if you have an entire statistic dedicated to this?

I'm saying that through this method just makes everything misleading about how the character is portrayed or rather create a purpose to make the formatting even more messier due to it's lazy structure. You could literally just say I'm 9-C over because I picked up a nearest kitchen knife. So yes you DO have to note physicals in AP as well, and like I said before, the SS is just a redundant extension to AP.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Well, I’m going to sleep now, and I hope to wake up with this thread still open and not with half dozen pages already. I think this is a legitimate discussion we can have to improve the format of our profiles.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You list the weapon in AP and the physical attacks in SS. That’s the whole point of striking strength.

That’s one mistake we do regarding our tiering. The opposite also happens: A character with weak/unknown SS doesn’t have this on his “Tier”, generally, only his AP is mentioned.

Yes? How that doesn’t make sense to you? What’s the issue of a character being 9-A via a rocket launcher listed in his AP but being 10-A physically? Why do you even need to mention their physical abilities in AP if you have an entire statistic dedicated to this?

That would just sound downright blasphemous; imagine if someone was looking for low tier profiles; sees that what's on tier was Tier 9 to Tier 8 stuff and no mention of cosmic tier stuff. But striking strength and durability literally say Universe level+ to Multiverse level+ stuff. It mostly works for characters with low or unknown striking strength to not mention it in the AP section, but if physical stats are the strongest thing a character has, it should be noted in AP. Especially since melee weapons would also technically be part of the Tier 2 stuff.

 

[LordTracer]

I would rather get rid of the SS stat entirely, as opposed to leaving it out of the tier and AP sections.

That’s one mistake we do regarding our tiering. The opposite also happens: A character with weak/unknown SS doesn’t have this on his “Tier”, generally, only his AP is mentioned.

And I know we currently do this, but I’m not a fan of this either. “Unknown physically” should be listed in the tier and AP sections as well.

 

[FinePoint]

Including all their attacks in the attack potency section seems to me the clearest way to convey what they're capable of.
Splitting it into two distinct sections, such that physical attacks are only in striking strength, I feel would create great confusion both for people reading the profiles and for search optimization.

Therefore, if anything is redundant, it is the SS section itself, not the details in the attack potency section.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT Thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

I take back what I said from removing SS. It absolutely SHOULDNT be removed. Take for example a character with 7-C energy attacks but 8-B punches. You can’t just not explain how strong they are by themselves, we have to index that, and shoving all that in AP is excessive.

Strongly agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

There also exist characters where their weapons are actually weaker than their tiers; how does being Tier 9 with weapons when they're tier 2 physically work by that logic? Now Tier 2 stuff in tier section but SS and Durability are Tier 2?

I agree with this. I think that it usually isn't necessary to mention differing striking strength statistics within attack potency sections, but it shouldn't be forbidden either.

The tier sections should also mention the scale of different types of abilities.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't like only including SS in the SS section if the character has another AP rating. Like, I think it would be really really misleading for Koyomi Araragi's tier to just be listed as High 8-C, since that's just with creation which isn't really combat applicable. In a fight, he'd just be punching with 10-A force.

Generally, I think the amount a character can physically punch for is important enough to be included in their AP/tier. If we had to choose, I'd go for deleting SS over moving SS away from AP, but I think having that sort of odd redundancy is fine.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Our standards say to mention physically only if they have a rating. So if they have a rating, you need to label them as "Whatever" physically per our rules.

If they don't have a rating you don't label it for obvious reasons. I disagree with changing this, since almost everyone who doesn't attack with strikes would be Unknown physically. I'm personally alright with some redundancy in favor of keeping the Striking Strength rating. Even if my vote is irrelevant here.

In the example given in the OP, Kaecilius being 9-C physically is just fine.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree with OP that technically physical Ap should only be listed in SS and general one in AP. That's how it was intended once upon a time and I still sometimes do so.
Sadly, the opposite has become widely established (I blame the top 10 strongest threads) and at this point fixing it is just not worth the effort.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it likely complicates the correlation between the attack potency and tier sections if we do not state how powerful characters are physically as well in the attack potency sections.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I agree with OP that technically physical Ap should only be listed in SS and general one in AP. That's how it was intended once upon a time and I still sometimes do so.
Sadly, the opposite has become widely established (I blame the top 10 strongest threads) and at this point fixing it is just not worth the effort.

Well, it likely complicates the correlation between the attack potency and tier sections if we do not state how powerful characters are physically as well in the attack potency sections.

Should we close this? Neither removing SS from the AP section or removing SS altogether are going to be accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems fine, yes. I will do so.