Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)

[SuperNova55555]

Faulty Proof:

This will actually be rather short (I think), because neither this, nor this actually prove CM1 for Aeons.

Now, ignoring the egregious (and likely intentional) word salad that you’ll see above, there is actually no proof that Paths are the what-it-is-to-be of any specific notion in the verse.

Not only did Knowledge exist before Nous and the Erudition did, but so did every other single concept in the HSR verse. And nor do the particulars of these concepts vanish or are even affected when these concepts themselves are. As in, Aeons and Paths can literally be destroyed and killed and what they represent stays the exact same because at the end of the day, they merely represent certain philosophical notions.

That’s literally all they are: beings (who might or might not be conceptual) that simply represent or embody certain philosophical ideals. They and their Paths are neither the actual universals nor are they even the source of the concept itself. Like, this is literally told to you in the scans of the very blogs I linked.

And even them being derived from Imaginary energy itself doesn’t help this at all, because when you look at the proof they have like this one:

“…the Imaginary is a concept…”

The scan itself doesn’t even prove this point because it’s literally saying that a certain concept is imaginary, not that Imaginary itself is a concept.

Also, look at this for a second. It doesn’t even read like an ontological claim. And even if it were one, how would it even prove CM1 in any comprehensive sense?

I mean “seldom the other way around” is literally an anti-feat in the first place and in general why would these people even wonder if notions can affect the universals that ground them because the way they speak about it in the second scan sounds to me like this is not something obviously impossible. I won’t get too deep into this since it’s mainly a HI3 problem and that’s not a game I play, so I’ll leave it to someone else who wants to deal with that slop.

But apparently what those scans are about is of a character who exists as an abstract/conceptual entity, and so… how is this Type 1? Huh? Maybe I’m missing something since I haven’t played the game and brushed it over the word salad that is the VSBW Hoyo blogs, but they can’t actually be using statements for some random woman as proof for CM1? Right? A Type 1 concept can’t just be walking in space as some dude, can it?

In any case, I still think that CM3 should be fine as they’re still conceptual in some sense but simply being the source of some energy isn’t Type 1. Like at all.

Irontomb:

(Edit: this part isn’t as problematic since I slightly conflated 1-A standards for Type 1’s when I first wrote this but it still addresses some info that needs to be altered so I’ll keep it.)

Another point brought up in the reasoning is that only Aeons can kill other Aeons (and therefore somehow prove detachment from the universal’s particulars) but this is just completely wrong as of the recent 3.6 update:

Irontomb, an Emanator of Destruction, can implicitly kill Nous the Erudition.

Not much to say about this aside from the fact that it completely disproves any notions of inherent immutability.

Conclusions:

All Aeons go from CM1 to CM3, and anyone who got CM1 for a similar reasoning does so, as well.

Not going to make a specific claim on HI3 right now since I have yet to play that game (and never will) but the proof is just as lacking there as it is for Aeons. Butttt I’ll leave that to someone else if they have the patience to do so.

Also a pet peave I just have to lay out but the state of the verse is horrid. Too many words that obfuscate the truth of literally anything there and I won’t be surprised if there’s even more wank that I just didn’t bother digging through. Whatever, just gimme some votes.

My Summary | Summary of Opposition

Mod Votes:

1. Vietthai96 (Agree)
2. Reiner04 (Agree)
3. Plank69 (Agree)

 

[SuperNova55555]

Obviously, as I’ve already said a bunch of times: I haven’t played HI3, so I might be missing some crazy lore that would nodiff all my arguments, so if it does exist, please do post it.

But (from what I’ve seen), it doesn’t exist and all that there is is some wank that doesn’t even imply CM1 at all.

Also if someone knows Honkai-scaling mods, please do tag them.

 

[Ayato256]

I prefer a CM1 to CM3 move to a Hax that's unusable. But I completely disagree with the Iron Tomb argument since it's, in a way, part of Nous

 

[SuperNova55555]

I prefer a CM1 to CM3 move to a Hax that's unusable. But I completely disagree with the Iron Tomb argument since it's, in a way, part of Nous

Irontomb would still have to participate in Nous’ concept. So unless Irontomb is inherently part of Nous before merging, then I’m not sure how a particular can attach itself to it’s universal.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Knew there was something fishy about that verse. Such intense word salad that’s so daunting you don’t even bother checking the evidence.

 

[Ayato256]

Irontomb would still have to participate in Nous’ concept. So unless Irontomb is inherently part of Nous before merging, then I’m not sure how a particular can attach itself to it’s universal.

It's a temporal inconsistency, which is why a CRT avatar hasn't appeared yet; it's the only anti-feat I'm waiting to see in 3.7, whether it will be declared or not.
Honestly, it's likely that the δ-me13 (Iron Tomb) Scepter existed before Nous' ascension, but the fact that it's a Scepter disrupts the timeline. The only thing we know is that it's the primordial prototype and therefore capable of destroying Nous, at least according to Zandar.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Knew there was something fishy about that verse. Such intense word salad that’s so daunting you don’t even bother checking the evidence.

This is most verses by the way. And there’s nothing you can even really do because even the actual intelligent people fall to biases and agendas.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It's a temporal inconsistency, which is why a CRT avatar hasn't appeared yet; it's the only anti-feat I'm waiting to see in 3.7, whether it will be declared or not.
Honestly, it's likely that the δ-me13 (Iron Tomb) Scepter existed before Nous' ascension, but the fact that it's a Scepter disrupts the timeline. The only thing we know is that it's the primordial prototype and therefore capable of destroying Nous, at least according to Zandar.

I don’t see how this has anything to do with the universal-particular relation of Type 1. As long as Irontomb is an emanator, it shouldn’t be capable of killing or merging with the Type 1 it supposedly derives it’s power from.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with the universal-particular relation of Type 1. As long as Irontomb is an emanator, it shouldn’t be capable of killing or merging with the Type 1 it supposedly derives it’s power from.

Actually, on second thought, this is only really a problem for 1-A so it most likely isn’t too big of an issue here. That’s a brainfart on my end. Uh, the proof for Type 1 is still nowhere to be found though and it still disproves the inherent immutability so erm.

 

[Ayato256]

I don’t see how this has anything to do with the universal-particular relation of Type 1. As long as Irontomb is an emanator, it shouldn’t be capable of killing or merging with the Type 1 it supposedly derives it’s power from.

It derives its power from Destruction, not from Erudition; at least, it no longer derives its power from Erudition. I'm simply saying that Iron Tomb should be considered a part of the Aeon itself, and therefore the rule that only an Aeon can kill an Aeon is not broken. This reflects Luocha and Jingliu's plan (although the latter is rather flawed).
He's not a particular

 

[Thermor]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Voidnether]

Faulty Proof:

This will actually be rather short (I think), because neither this, nor this actually prove CM1 for Aeons.

Now, ignoring the egregious (and likely intentional) word salad that you’ll see above, there is actually no proof that Paths are the what-it-is-to-be of any specific notion in the verse.

Not only did Knowledge exist before Nous and the Erudition did, but so did every other single concept in the HSR verse. And nor do the particulars of these concepts vanish or are even affected when these concepts themselves are. As in, Aeons and Paths can literally be destroyed and killed and what they represent stays the exact same because at the end of the day, they merely represent certain philosophical notions.

That’s literally all they are: beings (who might or might not be conceptual) that simply represent or embody certain philosophical ideals. They and their Paths are neither the actual universals nor are they even the source of the concept itself. Like, this is literally told to you in the scans of the very blogs I linked.

And even them being derived from Imaginary energy itself doesn’t help this at all, because when you look at the proof they have like this one:

The scan itself doesn’t even prove this point because it’s literally saying that a certain concept is imaginary, not that Imaginary itself is a concept.

Also, look at this for a second. It doesn’t even read like an ontological claim. And even if it were one, how would it even prove CM1 in any comprehensive sense?

I mean “seldom the other way around” is literally an anti-feat in the first place and in general why would these people even wonder if notions can affect the universals that ground them because the way they speak about it in the second scan sounds to me like this is not something obviously impossible. I won’t get too deep into this since it’s mainly a HI3 problem and that’s not a game I play, so I’ll leave it to someone else who wants to deal with that slop.

But apparently what those scans are about is of a character who exists as an abstract/conceptual entity, and so… how is this Type 1? Huh? Maybe I’m missing something since I haven’t played the game and brushed it over the word salad that is the VSBW Hoyo blogs, but they can’t actually be using statements for some random woman as proof for CM1? Right? A Type 1 concept can’t just be walking in space as some dude, can it?

In any case, I still think that CM3 should be fine as they’re still conceptual in some sense but simply being the source of some energy isn’t Type 1. Like at all.

Irontomb:

(Edit: this part isn’t as problematic since I slightly conflated 1-A standards for Type 1’s when I first wrote this but it still addresses some info that needs to be altered so I’ll keep it.)

Another point brought up in the reasoning is that only Aeons can kill other Aeons (and therefore somehow prove detachment from the universal’s particulars) but this is just completely wrong as of the recent 3.6 update:

Irontomb, an Emanator of Destruction, can implicitly kill Nous the Erudition.

Not much to say about this aside from the fact that it completely disproves any notions of inherent immutability.

Conclusions:

All Aeons go from CM1 to CM3, and anyone who got CM1 for a similar reasoning does so, as well.

Not going to make a specific claim on HI3 right now since I have yet to play that game (and never will) but the proof is just as lacking there as it is for Aeons. Butttt I’ll leave that to someone else if they have the patience to do so.

Also a pet peave I just have to lay out but the state of the verse is horrid. Too many words that obfuscate the truth of literally anything there and I won’t be surprised if there’s even more wank that I just didn’t bother digging through. Whatever, just gimme some votes.

Votes:

You know, if you actually read the page itself especially about the independence stuff maybe you would've known. Insane saying there's too many words that obfuscate the truth, no.

This is a terrible downgrade, genuinely.

First off, we have the Authority of Finality as an abstract concept, governing the concept of "time" altogether. Whilst being unaffected by it and this is treated as an independence. The concept of time here is treated as a type 2 concept by both Otto Apocalypse or Zandar One Kuwabara.

It is literally explained by Lygus that the way Irontomb kills Nous, is by hijacking THEM and their Path energy which is Erudition towards Destruction. Irontomb is the antithesis of Erudition that reverses all calculations and logic. Essentially making the whole civilization to stone age or predate way before that. This is explained by Lygus in the end of 3.5 where everything becomes a random constant instead of them being predictable in the supposedly new universe. Calling this out as an antifeat is insane when Irontomb only had the potency, the entire storyline was to literally prevent Irontomb from doing that. It did not happen. We listed them as 1-B because they have the potential to do so like Phainon scratching Nanook.

The evidence given is very lacking, and the fact you tried to just get over this with by "Whatever, just gimme some votes." and saying stuff like too much wank, you literally cannot prove how it is a wank when the evidence given against it is actually nonexistent AT ALL. Is there even anything dismissing it other than you questioning stuff? Like atleast prove with the game itself why this supports your interpretation, etc, etc instead of accusing it as nothing more than word salad and vague.

There are two instances of multiple transcendence in the cosmology blog with one of them being accepted as a +1 dimensional gap by transcending reality stuff hence the 1-B. Not to mention, the things about Finality itself being unaffected by time — There's also another transcendence where the Cocoon of Finality just transcends all dimensions entirely. This is already there on Kiana Kaslana's page, the Authority of Finality key.

There are also proof that if an Aeon dies, their Path somehow still exist and this is proven with our protagonist or Argenti or Dan Heng in which all three of them are all walking on the Path that doesn't even have an Aeon anymore which is the Trailblaze, Beauty or Permanence.

Aeons themselves govern reality, and each Aeon has a corresponding Path like what does their part of reality that they govern are in the Imaginary Tree.

Nanook the Destruction “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of destruction and entropy, ensuring that the universe ends in heat death.

Nous the Erudition “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of knowledge and logic.

Xipe the Harmony “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of harmony and order, fighting against the brutal laws of the universe.

IX the Nihility “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of emptiness and nothingness.

HooH the Equilibrium “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of balance. They separate concepts, dividing all beings into interchangeable dualities, combining all ‘positive’ and “negative”.

All of this are in the databank, these influences are also on a larger scale than other smaller Concepts; they consist of things such as Space, Time, Matter, etc. These concepts only exist because they are perceived and conceptualized, which is called the act of “Erudition.” Therefore, these concepts are Type 2 Concepts.

All this being a type 3 concept is funny, when they clearly govern a certain part of reality in the Imaginary Tree that's an universe. Not to mention, the cosmology blog said that the Imaginary Law is superior and the only unbreakable law in the cosmos (universe) compared to Ena's gazillion laws.

I'm on this verse for a year and a half straight just so you know and I'm making sure you won't get away with this thread of yours. What you're doing is just trying to get the staff to FRA you, this is actually so obvious with the last paragraph that you've said.

 

[SuperNova55555]

You know, if you actually read the page itself especially about the independence stuff maybe you would've known. Insane saying there's too many words that obfuscate the truth, no.

This is a terrible downgrade, genuinely.

First off, we have the Authority of Finality as an abstract concept, governing the concept of "time" altogether. Whilst being unaffected by it and this is treated as an independence. The concept of time here is treated as a type 2 concept by both Otto Apocalypse or Zandar One Kuwabara.

It is literally explained by Lygus that the way Irontomb kills Nous, is by hijacking THEM and their Path energy which is Erudition towards Destruction. Irontomb is the antithesis of Erudition that reverses all calculations and logic. Essentially making the whole civilization to stone age or predate way before that. This is explained by Lygus in the end of 3.5 where everything becomes a random constant instead of them being predictable in the supposedly new universe. Calling this out as an antifeat is insane when Irontomb only had the potency, the entire storyline was to literally prevent Irontomb from doing that. It did not happen. We listed them as 1-B because they have the potential to do so like Phainon scratching Nanook.

The evidence given is very lacking, and the fact you tried to just get over this with by "Whatever, just gimme some votes." and saying stuff like too much wank, you literally cannot prove how it is a wank when the evidence given against it is actually nonexistent AT ALL. Is there even anything dismissing it other than you questioning stuff? Like atleast prove with the game itself why this supports your interpretation, etc, etc instead of accusing it as nothing more than word salad and vague.

There are two instances of multiple transcendence in the cosmology blog with one of them being accepted as a +1 dimensional gap by transcending reality stuff hence the 1-B. Not to mention, the things about Finality itself being unaffected by time — There's also another transcendence where the Cocoon of Finality just transcends all dimensions entirely.
This is already there on Kiana Kaslana's page, the Authority of Finality key.

There are also proof that if an Aeon dies, their Path somehow still exist and this is proven with our protagonist or Argenti or Dan Heng in which all three of them are all walking on the Path that doesn't even have an Aeon anymore which is the Trailblaze, Beauty or Permanence.

Aeons themselves govern reality, and each Aeon has a corresponding Path like what does their part of reality that they govern are in the Imaginary Tree.

Nanook the Destruction “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of destruction and entropy, ensuring that the universe ends in heat death.

Nous the Erudition “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of knowledge and logic.

Xipe the Harmony “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of harmony and order, fighting against the brutal laws of the universe.

IX the Nihility “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of emptiness and nothingness.

HooH the Equilibrium “regulates” reality by enforcing the “influence” of balance. They separate concepts, dividing all beings into interchangeable dualities, combining all ‘positive’ and “negative”.

All of this are in the databank, these influences are also on a larger scale than other smaller Concepts; they consist of things such as Space, Time, Matter, etc. These concepts only exist because they are perceived and conceptualized, which is called the act of “Erudition.” Therefore, these concepts are Type 2 Concepts.

All this being a type 3 concept is funny, when they clearly govern a certain part of reality in the Imaginary Tree that's an universe. Not to mention, the cosmology blog said that the Imaginary Law is superior and the only unbreakable law in the cosmos (universe) compared to Ena's gazillion laws.

I’ll make a response to this later but can I take it that you also believe Type 1 doesn’t function here at least? I believe Type 2 is reconcilable so I’ll give it some thought in the meantime.

 

[Voidnether]

Not only did Knowledge exist before Nous and the Erudition did, but so did every other single concept in the HSR verse. And nor do the particulars of these concepts vanish or are even affected when these concepts themselves are. As in, Aeons and Paths can literally be destroyed and killed and what they represent stays the exact same because at the end of the day, they merely represent certain philosophical notions.

They are all considered Path, the birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path. Destruction as a concept obviously still exist way before Nanook even ascended as one. Path are already there in the beginning of time, Aeons are the representations that popularize it whilst being the Path THEMSELVES. They're not just a representation when they're AE1 and not AE2.

Yet, Path is still independent even if they die, and these are all universal concepts.

 

[Voidnether]

I’ll make a response to this later but can I take it that you also believe Type 1 doesn’t function here at least? I believe Type 2 is reconcilable so I’ll give it some thought in the meantime.

I already gave out proof that Finality is independent from the concept that they govern, the Cocoon of Finality also transcended dimensions and dimensions here are the space-time stuff which includes time as the type 2 concept earlier anyway. That's more than enough, I gave out proof that an Aeon governs a certain part of reality which is CM1 with Path still existing even if the representative Aeon dies. Erudition is a type 1 concept creating a type 2 concept.

Type 2 being reconcilable is insane, it's so blatant that they are universal and they shape up reality (Imaginary Tree) themselves. No, Genshin literally had their CM2 being kept even if it's planetary because CM2 actually doesn't require you to be universal: Them being universal, it's automatically type 2 concepts. They just need you to reshape reality to whatever concept was altered, and this supposedly works even if the world itself is only a planet.

 

[Voidnether]

Concept type 1 is, if you govern a certain part of reality + it's independent from concept type 2, what Honkai does here is practically way more than enough. Concept Manipulation means you're altering the concept in the way that the new reality is forced to follow whatever concept was being altered to. This is literally what Irontomb does by making the universe a random constant. Honkai is actually the most blatant concept type 1 there is: The concept governs a certain part of reality, it's also on an universal scale and it serves as the fundamental building block of the universe that's independent from the concept type 2 building blocks.

If you don't know, a Path forces a certain part of reality to follow whatever was being altered: Solitary Waves Theory — When she found the solution, she encountered a constant: When the universe's unstable index exceeds it, the future would be chaotic and unknown and if the universe's unstable index is less than it, the future would be on an ascertained trajectory. However, since there are various Paths that constantly press against each other, it causes the constant to be rewritten, which leaves the fourth Cosmic Conundrum unanswered.

If that's not enough, there's also the entire Equilibrium stuff and their purpose but that's way too long and I'm sure you already have a good grasp of it already tbh.

If you propose the cosmology blog to be revised, I'll revise it. Completely zero confusing terms so you actually understand. Is that fine by you?

 

[SuperNova55555]

I already gave out proof that Finality is independent from the concept that they govern, the Cocoon of Finality also transcended dimensions and dimensions here are the space-time stuff which includes time as the type 2 concept earlier anyway. That's more than enough, I gave out proof that an Aeon governs a certain part of reality which is CM1 with Path still existing even if the representative Aeon dies. Erudition is a type 1 concept creating a type 2 concept.

Type 2 being reconcilable is insane, it's so blatant that they are universal and they shape up reality (Imaginary Tree) themselves. No, Genshin literally had their CM2 being kept even if it's planetary because CM2 actually doesn't require you to be universal: Them being universal, it's automatically CM2. They just need you to reshape reality to whatever concept was altered, and this supposedly works even if the world itself is only a planet.

I’m not sure what Finality had to do with all of this. This isn’t even about HI3.

Here you claim (I want proof for this):

Path are already there in the beginning of time

But also this:

the birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path

Which one is it?

Concept type 1 is, if you govern a certain part of reality + it's independent from concept type 2, what Honkai does here is practically way more than enough. Concept Manipulation means you're altering the concept in the way that the new reality is forced to follow whatever concept was being altered to. This is literally what Irontomb does by making the universe a random constant.

This is out of context.

Nous’ philosophy works on the concept of Laplace’s Demon wherein it having all information in the Universe allows it to guess the future with 100% accuracy. This is what a “moment of Nous” is. Lygus’ plan is to use Irontomb to kill Nous so that the universe is no longer deterministic. This is the same shit Mythus tried to do by changing the past since then it gives Nous false information about the absolutely certain future causing slight alterations.

And that’s not what CM1 is at all. CM1 is when a concept is the what-it-is of a certain property wherein things participate in it to receive the aforementioned quality rather than it being a source in the same manner of IM2.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I’m fine with CM2 btw. The standard is vague enough I guess.

But while I did say that I was gonna ignore it, I really gotta ask about this Finality thing. Is Time inherently derived from it? I’m not talking if it allows Time Manipulation but if Time participates and manifests itself through it. Because the way that it seems to me (from the way that scan presents it) is that Finality seems to be the only “Authority” that appears to exist always does to it’s relation to time.

To me, this only implies that other Authorities don’t share the same property and can actually be manifested and is affected through the participating reality. This is bad because it implies that this omnitemporality it possess is just some special hax of it rather than an inherent quality of what a [Authority-concept] is.

But again, I won’t press too hard here since this isn’t even about HI3 to begin with.

 

[Voidnether]

I’m not sure what Finality had to do with all of this. This isn’t even about HI3.

Here you claim (I want proof for this):

But also this:

Which one is it?


This is out of context.

Nous’ philosophy works on the concept of Laplace’s Demon wherein it having all information in the Universe allows it to guess the future with 100% accuracy. This is what a “moment of Nous” is. Lygus’ plan is to use Irontomb to kill Nous so that the universe is no longer deterministic. This is the same shit Mythus tried to do by changing the past since then it gives Nous false information about the absolutely certain future causing slight alterations.

And that’s not what CM1 is at all. CM1 is when a concept is the what-it-is of a certain property wherein things participate in it to receive the aforementioned quality rather than it being a source in the same manner of IM2.

How is it not about HI3 when you brought up and discarded HI3 scans? I'm just going by what you said when you said knowledge already existed before Erudition. The birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path is Himeko's statement.

Also holy word salad, that's not the definition of a CM1, that's just yapping stuff that no one understands about. CM1 is just independent from IM2, or rather CM2 in this case.

 

[Voidnether]

I’m fine with CM2 btw. The standard is vague enough I guess.

But while I did say that I was gonna ignore it, I really gotta ask about this Finality thing. Is Time inherently derived from it? I’m not talking if it allows Time Manipulation but if Time participates and manifests itself through it. Because the way that it seems to me (from the way that scan presents it) is that Finality seems to be the only “Authority” that appears to exist always does to it’s relation to time.

To me, this only implies that other Authorities don’t share the same property and can actually be manifested and is affected through the participating reality. This is bad because it implies that this omnitemporality it possess is just some special hax of it rather than an inherent quality of what a [Authority-concept] is.

But again, I won’t press too hard here since this isn’t even about HI3 to begin with.

Finality governs Time, Finality is basically Time itself same with how an Aeon governs their Path and they're the Path themselves.

I'm not agreeing on CM2, if you read the thread about my supposed Raiden Downgrade with Genshin Impact before, you'd understand genuinely how easy it is because all types of CM don't even require you to be universal lol

The page itself said CM is the ability to manipulate concepts, not directly the universe.

The evidence of Independence I give you is enough, just stop.

 

[SuperNova55555]

How is it not about HI3 when you brought up and discarded HI3 scans? I'm just going by what you said when you said knowledge already existed before Erudition. The birth of an Aeon gives rise to a Path is Himeko's statement.

I only brought up the HI3 scans directly used for proving HSR stuff. Other HI3 shit can have other proof lol.

So now, can you stop being obtuse and tell me if Paths have always existed or whether an Aeon brings them about? Preferably with a scan please.

Also holy word salad, that's not the definition of a CM1, that's just yapping stuff that no one understands about. CM1 is just independent from IM2, or rather CM2 in this case.

These are Ultima’s words bro. If you don’t understand them that’s not my fault.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Finality governs Time, Finality is basically Time itself same with how an Aeon governs their Path and they're the Path themselves.

I’m asking if Time exists because of the Authority of Finality. This is what the CM page means by “participating”. Simply governing Time is Time Manip. Nothing else.

You have to prove that Time is Time because it-is-like the Authority of Time (its universal). Anything else is not CM1 by definition.

 

[Voidnether]

I only brought up the HI3 scans directly used for proving HSR stuff. Other HI3 shit can have other proof lol.

So now, can you stop being obtuse and tell me if Paths have always existed or whether an Aeon brings them about? Preferably with a scan please.

Not only did Knowledge exist before Nous and the Erudition did, but so did every other single concept in the HSR verse. And nor do the particulars of these concepts vanish or are even affected when these concepts themselves are. As in, Aeons and Paths can literally be destroyed and killed and what they represent stays the exact same because at the end of the day, they merely represent certain philosophical notions.

Okay give me the scan that knowledge exist before Nous and Erudition, and there you go!!

These are Ultima’s words bro. If you don’t understand them that’s not my fault.

Who even cares about Ultima bro, he's not on this forum anymore the same way like I do a week ago before this thread existed

 

[Voidnether]

I’m asking if Time exists because of the Authority of Finality. This is what the CM page means by “participating”. Simply governing Time is Time Manip. Nothing else.

You have to prove that Time is Time because it-is-like the Authority of Time (its universal). Anything else is not CM1 by definition.

Time existed before Finality is a thing and time is a type 2 concept, then Finality governs it and Finality is unaffected by it in the way that Finality transcends time itself through the transcendence of all dimensions stuff (reality)

 

[SuperNova55555]

Okay give me the scan that knowledge exist before Nous and Erudition, and there you go!!

Is this ragebait?

 

[AyOgUyS]

I'll be following for now. Neutral as I severely lack knowledge on the verse's lore but currently leaning towards agreeing with OP.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Time existed before Finality is a thing and time is a type 2 concept, then Finality governs it and Finality is unaffected by it in the way that Finality transcends time itself through the transcendence of all dimensions stuff (reality)

What? How is this CM1 in any way? Has there been a sudden shift in the standards I’m unaware of?

It… literally doesn’t even give rise to the particulars it’s supposed to govern. What temu ass CM1 is this?

This is like saying circles predate the form of circles, this is genuinely absurd.

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah this is going nowhere, all of this is just yapfest session that eventually turns into Genshin 2.0. I already explained how it fits the definition of a type 1 concept and elaborated how they're independent from a type 2 concept with the manipulation (alteration) of it

I'm dipping, it doesn't seem like you even understand the simplified version of all the types in concept manipulation altogether. Please understand the simplified version of them first before trying to understand the advanced and complex version of them because you'll just get lost

I'm shocked though if you could get the staff to FRA this actually, if that even happens. Unless you want me to revise the cosmology blog, I proclaim with absolute certainty it's more than enough for them to be labeled as that

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ye, I’m waiting for mods too.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

These are Ultima’s words bro. If you don’t understand them that’s not my fault.

It is on the concept page too. CM 2 is also supposed to be the whatness of a given thing or concept, since the page makes it seem like you only need whatness on type 1 concept. It will be so until this thread moves on.

For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness".

 

[Voidnether]

What? How is this CM1 in any way? Has there been a sudden shift in the standards I’m unaware of?

It… literally doesn’t even give rise to the particulars it’s supposed to govern. What temu ass CM1 is this?

This is like saying circles predate the form of circles, this is genuinely absurd.

Yeah, I'm sure you don't even know how Aeons and Paths work in the first place. You're actually cooked man, there's like Genshin Impact with the worst CM justification possible and they'd still get it anyway so who cares

If something governs something that's a type 2 concept, and that something is independent: It is a type 1 concept, saying that Finality must exist alongside Time itself is awful. That's just concept creation lmao, if you already exist as an abstract concept that governs and is unaffected by a type 2 concept: You're type 1.

 

[Voidnether]

Please differentiate a type 1, 2 and 3 concepts with the possible uses like creation, alteration and destruction (the manipulation part) and how it is possible for something to be AE1 that's a concept type 1 without having the possible uses like creation, alteration or the destruction part of the concept even if I'm sure they could manipulate the concept anyway so

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I might as well agree.

 

[AyOgUyS]

After rereading the CM page, Voidnether makes sense to me. I now disagree with OP.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Duality of man

 

[SuperNova55555]

It is on the concept page too. CM 2 is also supposed to be the whatness of a given thing or concept, since the page makes it seem like you only need whatness on type 1 concept. It will be so until this thread moves on.

For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness".

Ye so Type 2 must predate it as well, ye? If so, then Paths can’t be that as well.

Another day of old standards causing problems. Classic VSBW.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Ye so Type 2 must predate it as well, ye? If so, then Paths can’t be that as well.

No, type 2 just needs to be the whatness of something on a universal level. That aside, yeah, they can’t be type 2 if we go by the real standards, since they have no proof of being the essence of things or concepts they govern. The only proof they have is being concepts, which is what type 3 concepts are, since they are supposed to be vague.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

voidnether makes the most sense

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Paths: Govern the entire reality (IT, SoQ), Aeons, merely embody them
CM1 standard; just make sure u govern reality bro
Gacha game? rip standards vro
Sry even if Aeons are cm 2 theres literally nothing i see that disproves paths and concepts of the univerde in hsr not being cm1
im going with Nether here

 

[SuperNova55555]

I just realized that there’s a really severe misunderstanding about how Type 1/Platonic Universals work in this wiki. I wonder just how many verses are wanked like this.

I know ya’ll were mentioning Genshin but I’m kind of let to believe now that there might also be some of this bs over there.

We really need some mod clarification over here because it seems that the CM page is severely outdated one way or another.