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This reply is in regards to this thread linked above and a discussion between Xearesay and and a few others in regards to Mandrakk stuff. I came late to the discussion, sorry. Been busy. Reading through this thread linked above almost gave me a heart attack.
Limbo was cited as a totally empty void in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 worlds. A white void with nothing in it.
However, the reason this was shown as empty and nothing, but Superman Beyond's arc showed it as full of things, is because Limbo as a concept is shared both in comic, and out. And that is where scalers fall off the cliff on this topic. DC Comics has it's own Limbo. The one in the text. In the ink. In the story.
But the context of the Monitors of Final Crisis is that they are not from the ink and text, they are from the literal page margins Void. Here, the author confirms that is what Mandrakk is.
Nil is nothing. Nil is the personification of control factor from the Overvoid, just as the Monitors are projected thoughts of the Overvoid and not physical or even qualify as concepts. They are something else and above entirely.
More so, you are calling the Overvoid a Void when that is not the context. Void is something. Void is a thing. The Overvoid is nothing. Absence of. No thing. Lacking Is. And the author explains clearly that the context of this is exterior fictional Plane Time and also exterior Cube Time, which he cites as nonfictional in context.
You can see that explained here directly:
And also here in text form, double reinforced.
Mandrakk is the corruption of the Overvoid. The comic says so.
It says he came from the Overvoid as the first son of Monitor. And the word Monitor was used 13 times in Final Crisis to reference Overvoid and not Mar Novu. Guys and gals. 13 is a lot of confirmations. The contaminated part of Monitor, until the Overvoid, the mind of monitor engulfs him. It was never referenced even slightly that Mandrakk is a split of Mar Novu. Mandrakk is the corruption that was splintered off of the Overvoid when it felt contaminated. Monitor does not have the context of being Dax Novu in Final Crisis's version.
If you want to find out what another author thinks of Nil, here is Mr. Steve Orlando answering my questions about it. Here, he confirms that Mandrakk in the Unexpected 2018 series is essentially the Overvoid personifying it's own darkness. A two in one definition, akin to Jesus and Yahweh being the same but separate. Mr. Orlando relates to me that he is not sure if Grant wanted this in his series or not, and he cannot speak for Grant, but that in his series this is true.
Where does Vsbattles place the Presence and the Source? Place the Monitors of Nil higher because the author here says they can stand against the Presence and actually are above him.
Directly confirmed the Presence is below the Monitors of Nil and Mandrakk
And for those who don't believe CAS is all story and all stuff, and that Mandrakk is the not stuff, here is another confirmation that I never see used around here.
I am not going to start a hostile debate but someone in that thread I linked above was not being honest about what happened in the Metal series and what happened in the Unexpected series.
Read these statements from The Unexpected series author. I asked him about the Fires of Destruction and Creation. Neon and Alden got the entire power of the Forge. The Forge specifically made them to combat Mandrakk if he returned.
This Forge is not powered by Perpetua. Perpetua was imprisoned at this time and not fueling it. The Source fuels this. The source gifted power to the Forge so that Alpheus can continue his work. Perpetua was cut off, so the argument that Perpetua was fueling this Forge and it was half the power of Perpetua still doesn't work well for those who argue Perpetua > Mandrakk now does it? That isn't a fraction of the Forge, that is the entire Creation and Destruction of the Forge given to them.
And a depowered Mandrakk no sold this.
The only thing that The source was capable of doing to a depowered Mandrakk was to change what toppings Mandrakk can have on his pizza. Combat was out of the question. Mandrakk drops to his knees, gave up, and stopped fighting. This isn't a defeat. He gave up and the game wasn't fun anymore. This is like someone pouring hot sauce on your food that doesn't usually have hot sauce on it during an eating competition. You will get up and leave. That is what Mandrakk did. Again, we asked the author about Mandrakk vs the Presence and the Presence was not the winner.
So where is the Presence scaled? Mandrakk automatically gets scaled beyond that value.
And I don't even want to hear that Mandrakk is a split of Mar Novu in these two series. Enough already, the guidebook debunked this in 2014.
Reborn as Mandrakk, not split. Dax didn't split. His emotions did and it was a constant struggle for dark vs the light. Dark won. That's the split. Not a physical one. And once more, Monitor referenced as Overvoid, not Mar Novu, and not Dax. "You are the corrupt part of Monitor!"
Where do you scale the Overvoid? Beyond the Source according to Geoff Thorne.
But all authors do not agree with each other, that is what singling out canons and series is important and you cannot generalize.
The Source in some series is different than others. Context matters. Fan theory blurring all this is not the right way to educate others.
Tis' not the Source that is related to the Overvoid in this series, it has no interface with the Monitor Mind. The only thing that did, was Nix Uotan.
Characters in different series have different context, and generalizing them all into one salad bowl for feats and context is only acceptable in a vsbattle debate discussion where any and all events and series feats or mentions are included. The highest feats and the lowest anti feats. However, for wiki needs, all of these things need to be cited as separate viewpoints by authors that conflict.
As mentioned, even the guidebook author confirmed this.
What bugs me here on this thread is that many debaters believe these eyes are the Overvoid. They aren't. They are Dax Novu looking at the Flaw.
That's Mandrakk...looking at existence itself. The Flaw of all there is. Recall that everything not the Overvoid is what the Overvoid bottled. Everything.
Everything means everything. Fans are saying otherwise here because they seem to dislike that notion.
Everything, all the Is. Every character. The Presence, Lucifer, the Source, the Hands, Perpetua, the Source Wall, everything is everything.
This is very simple stuff to look at. Everything is explained by the authors and writers, in the comics, and also in the guidebook, and then double confirmed by the authors of the guidebook, both of them.
Where you scale the Source and the Presence? Drop them down a tier, and replace them with CAS, Mandrakk, and the Nil Monitors. Or, we can continue to be biased and ignore truth and respect of the content creators. Fans have the right to do that.
