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Revision for Sakaguchi Hinata and her sword (TSSDK).

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This (possible) revision concerns the profile of Sakaguchi Hinata (Light Novel) from Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ke.

The issue is that up until now we assumed that during Hinata's battle against Rimuru Tempest (Light Novel), her sword "Dead End Rainbow" damages the soul, because that's what the translation for the Web Novel and now also the manga said:



Great Sage: "Notice. Confirming Direct Damage to the soul. The resistance "Pain Nullification" does not apply."

Rimuru: "...So taking anymore hits would be dangerous, huh?"

Hinata: "Oh, so you have noticed?"

Hinata (Panel shows Dead End Rainbow): "Since you have realized, I'll inform you, that this Skill will undoubtly kill you with seven strikes."

However the Light Novel shows us some information that contradicts that. In the entire battle that was shown, the term "soul" was not mentioned even once, instead the damage Rimuru received was portrayed as being damage on the "Spiritual Body" instead. On a sidenote, it also refers to the blade itself to have some sort of Intangibility (though the sword is also shown as being materialized when defending herself with it, so it might possibly be switched on and off):



Understood. This arts-based skill is believed to be a direct attack on one's spiritual body, not the material one.

So the Sage says it's directly affecting my very spirit…? No wonder it slipped right through my sword. There was no way to defend it at all, and the lack of blood and slash wounds on my skin proved it.

Plus, if what the Great Sage then told me was right, I would lose my life in three more strikes. My body wouldn't die; my spirit would. Unbelievable. I didn't know if this was a skill or some effect of that magic sword, but if anyone underestimated their foe here, it was me. I knew Hinata had to have a unique skill or two, but as of right now, she didn't even need to show them off to overwhelm me.

And as the battle proceeds, Hinata explains the effects of Dead End Rainbow because Rimuru figured most of it out already:



"It's over. I'm impressed you can move that well inside this barrier. To be honest, I underestimated you. But you know, you can't beat me."

"Because it'll take one more blow to kill me?"

"Oh, you know that? This sword is infused with a special ability known as Dead End Rainbow. On the seventh strike, it is guaranteed to leave its opponent dead—even if they only exist in spiritual form. You put in a noble effort, but haven't you had enough yet?"

Now one might claim that it's just some sort of "translation choice" with the meaning actually being the same. However that's not the case here. Infact there seems to be a line drawn between what a soul is and what a Spiritual Body is, though the soul itself is not being described, just that it's in a "different part" of the "human body":



As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one's internal force; and material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is the combination of all three forms.

So from this it should be obvious that the soul and the Spiritual Bodies are different things. Now which TL is correct? As far as I am concerned I'd favor the LN one simply for the reason that it does mentions the difference between the two things in the same volume, while IIRC the manga does not go into such details, so it's likely that this new Translator probably made a mistake or that the manga perhaps just handles it differently for some reason.

Either way, if we say that the "correct" version is that Hinata damages the Spiritual Body then it shouldn't be Soul Manipulation. But what would the replacement P&A entry for Hinata be then? Some sort of "Death Manipulation (through 7 intangable sword strikes)" maybe? Let me hear what you think.


(All images used in this post can be found here.)
 
Spiritual Body can mean Soul in context just link the word spirit can mean soul in the proper context, NeoSuperior. the implication of the word soul from spiritual bodies looks alright to me, to be honest.
 
No, look at the post, the 4th quote to be exact. It clearly says that the "human body" consists of three seperate entities, which are the Astral Body, the Spiritual Body and the Material Body. The soul is explicitly mentioned to be within the Astral body, while the Spiritual Body seems to be some sort of spiritual version of a "magic circuit". Therefore the soul cannot be the Spiritual Body.
 
It's the new translator for the manga. We don't know what sort of TL quality they have and I can surmise that the kanji for Spiritual Body and Soul are probably quite similar in meaning, so much that they seem like likely candidates for a little "mistake".

The LN however clearly uses BOTH terms but with different meanings, a differentiation that, as I already covered in the OP, probably doesn't exist in the manga, so the manga would be more prone to make a mistake like that than the LN TL from YenPress who translated the whole of LN vol. 4.
 
Understood. This arts-based skill is believed to be a direct attack on one's spiritual body, not the material one.

So the Sage says it's directly affecting my very spirit…? No wonder it slipped right through my sword. There was no way to defend it at all, and the lack of blood and slash wounds on my skin proved it.

NeoSuperior, Rimuru is even using the word spirit which means soul in context here.
 
Also, astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul.

Astral bodies is not the soul, but just surround the soul.
 

As the Great Sage explained, there were three types of topological forms in the world: astral bodies, the weakest form that surrounds the soul; spiritual bodies, which can form a base upon which to build one's internal force; and material bodies, those directly connected with this world. The human body is the combination of all three forms.
Look there, clear as day, soul and spiritual bodies are two different terms used in the same paragraph, so unless you think that the TL likes to complicate things for fun or to annoy the readers, it's safe to say that they are, infact, different things. There are a lot of works were spirit and soul are considered different things, actually. I think the most common meanings for "spirit" are 1. the mind, or 2. "the thing that connects the body with the soul" or 3. the mind that connects the body with the soul.

In other words, they are not neccessarily the same thing just because they sound "similar". Escpacially since Rimuru's 3 (4 if you seperate Glutton into components) Unique Skills don't grant Rimuru any special resistance against Hinata's attacks.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
Death manipulation (Can kill her opponents in 7 hits by damaging their spiritual bodies), is ok with me.
Now, from Standard Battle Assumptions via Verse Equalization for the many other verse that just have souls and no spiritual bodies; it looks useless.
 
What about the Intangibility trait of the sword when in Anti-Spiritual Body mode? Should that be in the P&A sections as part of the Death Manipulation description or should it just be mentioned in the standard equipment section for the weapon itself or both?
 
Elizhaa, from the description of Spiritual Body it says it "can form a base upon which to build one's internal force". There are two ways to interpret it.

One is that it's that thing that holds your supernatural powers in it, like a Magic Circuit in the Fate/ franchise or a Dantian in Chinese Cultivation Novels or the "mana heart" or whatever that stories all magical energy. In that case the sword would be a power nuller, which would in most cases lead to Death too, either by the destruction of that internal force foundation itself, or after becoming effectively harmless due to being power nulled, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

The other one is that we equalize "internal force" to "life energy" instead. In other words, it's standard Death Manipulation which works unless the character in question resists that or can regenerate/heal the partial damage from each strike via Life Manipulation or has demonstrated feats of resisting something similar.

I think we are leaning towards the second interpretation here, correct?
 
Anything relating to Astralness always confuses me on what it even is in relation to the soul lol.

I take it this affects the LN of Hinata and not the WN version, or both? Regardless of the answer, I think Death Manip in 7 strikes to the spiritual body looks the best to go by here.
 
Internal force=life force imo, so i think Hinata's ability is death manipulation cause she is damaging her opponents life force.
 
I will be honest. I want to wait until Ln 5 is translated to get the translation fro where Hinata belive that she destroys Rimuru's soul when it is fact the clone that she was fighting against the clone.

It is seems premature to do a revision without the complete translation.
 
She destroys rimuru with disintegration though, an entirely different ability, if anything she will just gain soul manipulation in addition to death manipulation.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
She destroys rimuru with disintegration though, an entirely different ability, if anything she will just gain soul manipulation in addition to death manipulation.
She thought that she destroyed Rimuru's soul causing him to lose his sanity,

Later, then, as the clone survive, she destroyed the clone, at least in the Wn. This part s not yet translated in the LN.

The manga which follows the LN, stated Soul damaged: https://imgur.com/ULiZTSN which would suggest the damge in genral is to the soul.
 
You get my point, it's a different ability.

Not sure why you're so hung up on it being soul manipulation, the manga clearly contradicts the ln, and the ln is the primary canon.

Neo already explained why it's wrong.
 
There are some changes between WN and LN though. For one the three "bodies" in the WN are considered all "part of the soul", while the LN doesn't mention such a thing.

Another reason is that the manga TL is someone new and the manga did not previously address what a Spiritual Body is, so it's likely that they either made a mistake or referenced the WN TL.

I mean is it really much of an issue? If it's wrong we can just change it back. It's not like this is a point of no return or anything like that.

Maybe we can add a clause to this thread that "should it be very obvious that the conclusions from this thread were wrong, it's OK to reverse the results without needing another CRT" or something like that?
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
You get my point, it's a different ability.
Not sure why you're so hung up on it being soul manipulation, the ln clearly contradicts the ln, and the ln is the primary canon.

Neo already explained why it's wrong.
Celestial Pegasus, I am not hung up and this point would be Appeal to motive Fallacy; I try to care about accuracy and it only here; the ability change don't matter to me.
 
NeoSuperior said:
There are some changes between WN and LN though. For one the three "bodies" in the WN are considered all "part of the soul", while the LN doesn't mention such a thing.
Another reason is that the manga TL is someone new and the manga did not previously address what a Spiritual Body is, so it's likely that they either made a mistake or referenced the WN TL.

I mean is it really much of an issue? If it's wrong we can just change it back. It's not like this is a point of no return or anything like that.

Maybe we can add a clause to this thread that "should it be very obvious that the conclusions from this thread were wrong, it's OK to reverse the results without needing another CRT" or something like that?
Fair point. I initially thought that the CRT going to be rejected from the basis of my points. If the CRT is wrong, then another revision will happen.
 
One thing is that this arrangement with Death Manipulation is more consistent with our character profiles though. For example it's a bit strange how Rimuru with his overwhelmingly powerful soul that contains 3 (or 4 if you count the components Predator and Ravenous as seperate) Unique Skills gets as easily killed by Dead End Rainbow as other random Calamity-level schmuck without any Unique Skills whatsoever, despite the obvious difference in resistance power of the souls between Rimuru and random Special A schmuck.

However Rimuru doesn't have any Death Manipulation resistance which previously did him in, in a VS battles, so him being susceptible to that seems far more believable.
 
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