RoF Gohan and Tagoma downgrades

[ArgosaxDespair]

Basing on this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1073998 Tagoma's current profile is based on the statement that "he's stronger than Gohan at his peak", which would be Ultimate Gohan from DBZ. But this was a mistranslation. Back in 2017, Herms answered a person on Twitter who asked about this and he replied saying that Gohan was referring to his current peak, not his all time prime.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/882099332761001989

I propose a change on Tagoma's and Gohan's profile.

It makes no sense that Tagoma would be comparable to a weakened SSJ Gohan (it was confirmed that Gohan got weaker multiple times), let alone Ultimate Gohan, because when Ginyu took over Tagoma's body, it was said that Ginyu got even stronger, so that was a stronger version of Tagoma (with Ginyu's mind), but he was easily defeated by one slap. If Tagoma was really as strong as SSJ Gohan, Ginyu would've been stronger than SSJ Gohan. Gohan was weaker than his Boo saga self, that's how he was portrayed and Gohan even confirmed that. The only statement that justified the 4-B was proven wrong.

High 4-C or at least High 4-C seems fine.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

bump

 

[Elizhaa]

I mean the twitter is extremely subjective. In contex and by Occam's Razor, it make less senses if the statement is not referring to prime Gohan than a current Gohan. Besides, the last time Gohan was seeing training was in his prime not in that time period.

So, I have to disagreed with a downgrade.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

@Elizhaa

The discussion was about how differently subs treated the statement. Some said that Gohan meant his all time peak, and some said that he meant his current peak. Herms is one of the best sources of translated content related to Dragon Ball, and he says that Gohan meant his current peak, which goes along on what the anime portrayed. In terms of what Gohan said and the anime's intention, Gohan only meant his current peak.

"In contex and by Occam's Razor, it make less senses if the statement is not referring to prime Gohan than a current Gohan."

Gohan was referring to his Super Saiyan because this was his last resort at the time. Since he stopped training, someone that rivals him in power is a big threat, mainly because Goku wasn't there and Piccolo was weaker than him.

"Besides, the last time Gohan was seeing training was in his prime not in that time period."

That's 100% correct. So if the show portrayed him as weaker than before, and Gohan confirmed that several times, Gohan wouldn't be able to match someone as strong as his previous peak because Gohan was weaker than his previous peak.

 

[Elizhaa]

I know how are great of sorce Herms is is but it does change the fact the statement is ambiguous.

(Young) Adult Gohan is considered rusty in the past narrative when compared to his young SSJ2 form vs Cell which was considered is peak. Yeah, it was referred that Adult Gohan barely trained. This point that Ultimate Gohan was more likely to referred as the peak.

 

[Akreious]

"Herms is one of the best sources of translated content related to Dragon Ball, and he says that Gohan meant his current peak, which goes along on what the anime portrayed. In terms of what Gohan said and the anime's intention, Gohan only meant his current peak."

I dug out some old Japanese textbooks and such and rewatching the scene a ghajillion times, actually nothing about the original Japanese sentence says "Right now" when referring to Gohan's peak. It could be interpreted both ways since the sentence doesn't refer to any time period other than "Gohan's peak". Just because an influential takes one side doesn't automatically mean it's correct.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

I dug out some old Japanese textbooks and such and rewatching the scene a ghajillion times, actually nothing about the original Japanese sentence says "Right now" when referring to Gohan's peak. It could be interpreted both ways since the sentence doesn't refer to any time period other than "Gohan's peak". Just because an influential takes one side doesn't automatically mean it's correct.

Herms: Still, þÁÂÕÑ¢Þ¬┐ is "at one's best" more in the sense of being on point/having a good day rather than the prime of one's life, if that helps any.

Herms never directly says that Gohan is talking about his current peak, but he certainly discards the prime of one's life, and there's only two sides: either Gohan was talking about his all time prime or his current peak. Let's do this: we cannot confirm what Gohan meant.

Still. We have an enemy as strong as Ultimate Gohan according to the current scaling, and the anime confirms that Gohan is weaker than before. And then Gohan proceeds to take out an enemy stronger than Ultimate Gohan with one single slap. If the anime didn't mention and portrayed Gohan as being weaker, I would agree with the scaling. It doesn't change much even if we take the Herms part out.

 

[Akreious]

"Still, þÁÂÕÑ¢Þ¬┐ is "at one's best" more in the sense of being on point/having a good day rather than the prime of one's life, if that helps any."

I've seen this term be used in reference to boxers/wrestlers as well to refer to one's "best" point in their careers as well as referring to one's physical peak so this actually doesn't really tell us much. Yes it's more commonly referred to as such in dictionaries and stuff but in actual usage they use this term quite a lot.

"We have an enemy as strong as Ultimate Gohan according to the current scaling, and the anime confirms that Gohan is weaker than before. And then Gohan proceeds to take out an enemy stronger than Ultimate Gohan with one single slap. If the anime didn't mention and portrayed Gohan as being weaker, I would agree with the scaling."

Y'know weird thing is, the stuff he does actually puts him at around the level of Ultimate/SSJ3. Such as outputting enough energy that it could be felt well into the Afterlife (And in this case, Beerus' planet which is shown to be far further away than King Kai's case with SSJ3 Goku) and jumping from "rusty" to tieing with Universe-Level Piccolo in just a few days and at most, weeks of training.

In my personal opinion, I wouldn't really rely on anime statements unless it's truly undeniable (Such as Infinite Zamasu's case). In this case, they say Gohan got rustier and significantly weaker and yet performs a feat technically immensely superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku's debut at least.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

In Cell saga, it was possible to output more energy than you normally had, but at the cost of losing speed. Remember when SSJB Goku won a clash against Fusion Zamasu at the cost of his arms? And he won despite being way weaker than Fusion Zamasu. I wouldn't compare both cases because Gohan destroyed his body in the process, just like Goku's case, to forcefully increase his energy to be felt. This is not applicable for battle feats.

"and jumping from "rusty" to tieing with Universe-Level Piccolo in just a few days and at most, weeks of training." This is what I call Plot-Induced Lack of Time Stupidity. Happened with Trunks learning the Mafuba in minutes, people recovering from injuries that would take days in just a minute in the ToP.