Ryougi Shiki vs Headhunter

[Wokistan]

Knife wielding girls with powers that make finding 9-B matches annoying

Shiki's first key

Speed equalized

Start 20m away in the jungles of Vietnam

Shiki's uncalced, Headhunter's 0.0017 tons

Ryougi Shiki:

Headhunter:

Inconclusive:

 

[Promestein]

Without Headhunter's precog, I'd confidently go with Shiki; Shiki has a number of options, can grab at her from a range, and permakill her with her knife. Thanks to Headhunter's precog, getting into melee range would be difficult, as Headhunter would likely know to avoid risking it, and if Shiki did, Headhunter would be able to dodge by altering her perception of time.

But any hit Shiki gets in isn't going to be going away, and if she takes out her katana her range is gonna be tripled, along with becoming a whole lot more skilled and dangerous thanks to self-suggestion.

 

[Wokistan]

How would Shiki fare against teleportation and using the laser rifle to maintain a distance?

 

[Promestein]

Oh, I forgot that Shiki once killed a future a precog predicted, which would change the course of the fight significantly once she did that.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

When was this?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How does the precog work? Wheather or not Shiki can kill the future depends on if it predicts based on seeing possible futures or one certain future. If it's the latter, Shiki sees it, stabs it, and the precog is gone.

Shiki then proceeds to win as per Proms reasons.

@Iapitus

The Garden of Sinners: Future Gospel.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@Iapetus

It was when the serial bomber that was targeting her lured her into the parking garage. He precog'd her exploding and she just cut the future instead of dying

 

[Wokistan]

Well she talks about how she saw loops wifh her own death a thousand times, and her precog happens before the fight even starts so once she's actually fighting shiki she isn't really looking at futures anymore.

Shiki can't survive her suicide vest though so even if it comes to that headhunter could force an incon or evem win if she lives.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Kokutou explains to her that her ability is not as extraordinary as she thinks, and that it is more like an extension of the kind of prediction that ordinary humans can do based on current information"

Precog that is an extension of ordinary prediction can't be countered by Shiki, to be more specific.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Her precog wasn't really precog it was literally just remembering every detail and making a prediction based on it.

Precog where you can actually visualize the future and what will happen in it can be cut though

 

[Wokistan]

It's fueled by a drug, so if it being not magic is the key there then there you go i guess

Though given that zero could predict conversations he hadn't even had yet and such I don't think you can say it's just super intuition.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It's not because it's magic-based, it's because the precog narrows down the future to one certain "future" that Shiki can then visualize and cut.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I don't remember the exact quote but she said something along the lines of.

The future is usually to uncertain to be cut, but when he precog'd it the future was given a shape and could be cut since his precog showed what the future would be with no other options

 

[Wokistan]

Her precog isn't really the type that would be constantly active during the fight though, it all happens in an instant before combat begins. That future would just be the present with headhunter using her knowledge she foresaw in some instant of chronos stopped perception.

Even without precog if it didn't work, teleportation seems to let headhunter stay safer for longer than most, and she uses ranged weapons. Also the location coupled with her laser starting fires.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Before I comment further, do we equalize projectile speed when equalizing speed? iirc there was a discussion on that?

 

[Wokistan]

Stuff's equalized in a relative manner, so her gun's still faster than her while grenades are slower. Idk what we would do about 5hings like the speed fire is spreading in the jungle though.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Following this for now.

 

[Reploiid]

As Wokistan said, she sees the future and plans the entire fight before it even happens. In game, when she starting the fight with Zero, she said that she saw Zero commit and die to the same error 100 times or more, i don't remember very well. What's stopping her from predicting Shiki's movements before Shiki gets to her? Also, teleportation and being able to fight from far away would keep Headhunter safe.

Zero was only able to beat her by being able to come back over and over again. And i just don't get one thing: if Headhunter gets the hit and dies by Shiki eyes, would she be able to come back?

 

[Paul_Frank]

What's stopping her from predicting Shiki's movements is the fact that the serial bomber was doing the same thing and still failed to kill her. She can also cut a future that is precog'd, i.e someone precogs her exploding.

She likely wouldn't be able to come back, conceptual deathhax and all that

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Headhunter would definitely play the range game, since she knows Shiki will likely take it in any close range enounter. She should also be capable of rewinding time before Shiki actually got the hit if she sees that Shiki is about to kill her, so even if the automatic ressurection won't work, she can still prevent her death. Her AoE weaponry and Danmaku should be enough to reliably get a win, but if she ***** up and doesn't rewind time ahead of time then she loses

For these reasons, I vote headhunter

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Headhunter: 1

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

im voting Headhunter Fra.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Headhunter would definitely play the range game, since she knows Shiki will likely take it in any close range enounter. She should also be capable of rewinding time before Shiki actually got the hit if she sees that Shiki is about to kill her, so even if the automatic ressurection won't work, she can still prevent her death. Her AoE weaponry and Danmaku should be enough to reliably get a win, but if she ***** up and doesn't rewind time ahead of time then she loses
For these reasons, I vote headhunter

When has she ever rewinded time outside of the death activation, during combat?

Why are you describing her precog like it's going to work; when the moment it's activated Shiki just kills that future?

And honestly Shiki has dealt with projectile spammers, and since Shiki can just shut down the precog; she doesn't have the benefit of knowing entering close combat with Shiki is a death sentence.

 

[Wokistan]

She talked about killing her Chronos supplier a bunch then just rewinding because it felt nice but she still needed the Chronos. Zero, another chronos user, can rewind time to cheat at gambling.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

She talked about killing her Chronos supplier a bunch then just rewinding because it felt nice but she still needed the Chronos. Zero, another chronos user, can rewind time to cheat at gambling.

So, never in combat.

 

[Wokistan]

Killing a guy then rewinding would still be combat. Only time you fight her you're a chronos user with more chronos. It already happens on death as a default, which is combative.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Killing a guy then rewinding would still be combat. Only time you fight her you're a chronos user with more chronos. It already happens on death as a default, which is combative.

No, off-handedly pondering killing a guy and rewinding time, not actually ever doing it in combat.

Heck, the rewind could have involved killing herself since she doesn't give more details, going off of your claim.

 

[Wokistan]

Didn't ponder killing him. She did it a bunch. Also when playing Zero or Fifteen you can rewind whenever you want and don't have to die, it can be pretty helpful if trying to speedrun. She has the same exact powers as those two.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Didn't ponder killing him. She did it a bunch. Also when playing Zero or Fifteen you can rewind whenever you want and don't have to die, it can be pretty helpful if trying to speedrun. She has the same exact powers as those two.

That doesn't seem to be the way you worded it. Although now I'd personally like a link to the source.

"She talked about killing her Chronos supplier a bunch then just rewinding because it felt nice"

That sounds great for Zero and Fifteen, both of whom we aren't talking about here. And you can't really say they use their powers in the same way when you can't do something playing as Headhunter that other playable characters can do.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, talked about how that is a thing she did.

There is one fight she's in and in that fight it's against Zero. Given that he's a stronger null and has more chronos that causes half her stuff to just outright not work off the bat, but there is literally no reason that without that stipulation she's just unable to use the shared powers in the same way.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, talked about how that is a thing she did.

I see; the way that was worded sounded like she was talking about potentially doing something, not something she already did. Again though she's not using it in the oddly specific way that Iapitus mentioned it in, which would require foresight of Shiki's abilities she doesn't have here.

Regardless, it happened off-screen; which isn't very reliable compared to fights we actually see on-screen.

YThere is one fight she's in and in that fight it's against Zero. Given that he's a stronger null and has more chronos that causes half her stuff to just outright not work off the bat, but there is literally no reason that without that stipulation she's just unable to use the shared powers in the same way.

Which basically means we can't confirm if she tried using it during combat. Was there something explaining that he was nullifying her powers that entire fight or no?

Again, what Iapitus claimed for her win condition doesn't seem like anything she's used her powers for; and like I said above it borderline requires her precog to tell her that Shiki can actually kill her.

If she isn't aware that Shiki can bypass her immortality, why would she see it necessarily to rapidly user her rewind right off the bat, when she apparently doesn't do it anywhere else?

 

[Wokistan]

She outright says she can't actually win this fight unless you give up due to being a superior null and her being out of Chronos. There's also how when you briefly meet earlier on, both of your precogs cancel out and both are like "oh they're a null then".

She sees that the girl is armed with a melee weapon and as such is more likely to not bother going up close while she is holding a gun in her hand. Even in her fight in a confined space she doesn't use her melee attack that much. Her gun also sets fires in a wooded area.

The only thing in verse that messes with her precog is another null, and that also allows her to die for good. She can end up making an assumption ultimately beneficial to herself via how it works in her own verse.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Could you link to this encounter, just so I can look at it for myself? That still might just be referring to the death trigger, if that's the case.

Except Shiki isn't a sitting duck in melee range. She has an invisible arm that can grab and restrain Headhunter at a distance for a melee strike. Shiki's dealt with her fair share of long-ranged opponents just fine.

Shiki can also throw her knife, which would still trigger MeoDP. Although that's a risky gambit she wouldn't take unless she knew it would land.

If she makes that assumption, she also wouldn't find it worth trying to rewind time either; or at least won't try until it's likely too late.

 

[Wokistan]

Most vids skip the dialogue, I can see about recording it myself tomorrow but today's not a great time. I can link the mutual cancellation of precog though.

Teleportation is still a thing. Due to Shiki being calcless, headhunter has more AP as is and as such restraining her might prove difficult/. Also she has an explosive vest on so melee might cause issues.

I don't see why she wouldn't dodge that. If it's a situation that she can't dodge it I doubt that the knife actually being thrown would really matter at that point.

She'd probably at least try it as a reflex at worst, though I doubt she'd spam it the entire time.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'll look it over.

Sure, but in the heat of combat a hand that she can't react to suddenly gripping her throat is going to put whatever she's attempting to do at a dead halt. That kind of opportunity can easily give Shiki the win here.

Feints and stealth are a thing, both of which Shiki is capable of and has done. Headhunter also isn't aware of Shiki's abilities and might try catching the knife, which would prove diasterious.

By the time she thinks about trying it as a reflex, MeoDP would probably already kill her. And I don't really recall you mentioning her using it reflexively outside of ressurection.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump