Saint Seiya Attack Potency Discussion Thread for Future Revisions

[TheUnshakableOne]

i am currently making this thread for us to talk about Attack Potency tiering within the verse.

Some examples would of things to discuss would be

• 2 Athena Exclmations clashing have an infinite expotential growth in power, or an infinitely expanding growth in power.

• That Episode G Assassins introducing a possible Megaverse with "Many dimensions with Many Futures"

• Cross Canon scaling with AP such as Omega with the main timeline. Such as Saint Seiya Omega stating that the Big Bang Created Time Alongside the universe which would scale the Athena Exclamation to low 2-C

• Libra Genbu putting a crack in a possibly 2-A sword, The Cataclysm Slash, with the Libra Sword.

• Poseidons Statement of "Almost encompass the Universe"

• The many High End Feats that the Gold Saints get in Episode G series

• and the infinities created by the power of "Miracles" that even surpasses the gods.

• The many early series feats that can be Calced. For example, Seiya creates another crater in his battle with Cassios that acutally looks larger than the crater he made earlier in the same chapter. Still looks island tier ish but perhaps even stronger island tier-ish
  
  *The Underworld being outside of time, and possibely the multiverse. As it was created by Hades.

Those are just a few examples of course, we can talk about anything as long its Ap related.

I think this is something we need to discuss in order to move on with revisions and to obtain accurate tiering.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well, Saint Seiya scaling can be divided into 3 groups:

1. The "Normal" people: Most supporting characters, such as the other 5 Bronze Saints and most Silver Saints. Most of these take calcs for their AP.

2. The "Gold Saint" level people: Most main people here, like the Main 5 Bronzes and the antagonists. They seem to scale from Saga's statement of booming a galaxy when being casual, the stronger ones are Multi-Galaxy, scaling from full-power Galaxian Explosion. There have been statements of Universal feats. However, most of it remains baseline.

3. The "Gods" people: Most gods and 5 Bronzes with God Cloth. They scale from Hades' statement of creating the Underworld, which is divided into Hell and Elysium, both are stated to be endless in size.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

early on in the series before the gold saint arc

the 5 main bronze saints go through quiet the series of growths and spurts in strength. Although, i have my doubts about the calc for top tier silver saints.

I also have my doubts about the saga scaling.

and not all the gods scale from Hades, and God Cloths. For example Zeus is mostly scaled to Cronus on the wiki. Which Typhon and Zeus can scale to each other, but once you factor in a certin Light Novel Typhon can scale to Athena.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Okay, the true topic I'm having a question is here:

Why was BB Zeus Upgraded to 2-A?

Because I'm 99.99% sure that the reasoning of him beating Cronus in his full power is damn vague. And there's that one statement where Cronus said had his 2-A power (erasing all time thingy. And it takes time, by the way) finished, not even Zeus would survive, showing that his 2-A power wasn't used against Zeus in the first place.

So downgrade him to 2-C and be done with it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It would be 2-B for Cronus the Titan King if we downgraded him, but Although, the issue is can he end up destroying a true infinity over time? Even if it takes 3 seconds to destroy an infinity of universes that would be still 2-A

Supposedly in another light novel, the battle between the Olympians and Titans took over 10 years before a conclusion was reached.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well, it said he will erases all of time, so it should be able to erases an infinity of time.

But wait. I thought just erasing time won't give you AP. You need to destroy space as well.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

True, erasing time by itself won't be 2-A, but its about the context of how the verse treats "Time".

Time in the verse is used as a reference for alternate timelines or alternate futures iirc.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I see, there should be scans of "Time = Alternate Futures" too though.

Now what I'm still iffy: How does it scale to Zeus, if it was stated the usage of it will kill Zeus, yet here we are, with Zeus beating the crap out of Cronus.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

this comes from an unverified source because i completely forgot where i read it from, but during that 10 year wear aganist the titans. There apparently a couple of titans that betrayed Cronus and turned to side with Zeus, and they striped Cronus of some of his power and took his weapon. though im still not sure where i remember reading that from lel

Although, if we talked about Typhon the scaling gets really weird once we include Light Novels.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Although, Erasing the multiverse couldn't that just be a hax feat instead of an AP feat??

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

So Zeus doesn't scale from that time erasing thingy?

Let me check a bit. I remember Matt said in his Hypermyth blog that the Gigantomachia Novel Typhon shouldn't scale to the Ep G Typhon.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Probably not to full power Cronus. Which means he would need an entirely new tier with an entirely new justification

Why would they not be the same Typhon?

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I'd rather put him at 2-C with the other Gods.

I rechecked the blog, and yeah, I misread that. They are the same.

But, if Zeus is 2-C, Typhon scale around Zeus, so it might help fix the scaling.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

if Zues becomes 2-C that would actuall align and fix so much with the current tiering on the wiki

Although, Id have to find where i read that Cronus lost because of the betrayal of a couple of titans. Was that Episode G + the Hypermth?? I don't remember.. it was so long ago..

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

2-A Zeus would struggle even against a Nasuverse 2-A anyway, so that's probably a nice thing he's down.

Should be in Ep G. The Hypermyth only covers the original series, from what I see.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

well Zeus will get more abilities in the future, and if that "many dimension with many futures" is accepted that would be put him really far above Baseline 2-A, and lets not forget a lot of passive abilities, and one of Zeus passives is Passive Existence Erasure when in his prescence/Aura. but thats only for if 2-A stays,

My personaly favorite is going to be upgrade the Omega Series saints.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

That statement is phrased as "many dimensions---- many future possibilities----"

So I assume Shion's just saying "Many other universes" twice.

Passive EE might be good.

Well, Omega's barely touched upon, probably because people hated its lighter tone and how the older Saints are treated. But that load of feats you shown before...

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Although, Erasing the multiverse couldn't that just be a hax feat instead of an AP feat??

Hm... Thinking about this for a while, if Cronus is scaled from Zeus, and is 2-C physically, how should we rate the likes of Uranus?


Would be ridiculous if the Primordials that are not Chronos are weaker than their child's hax.


But then, I don't think Uranus or Gaia are profile-worthy anyway, just how important they were in the story anyway?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That statement is phrased as "many dimensions---- many future possibilities----"
So I assume Shion's just saying "Many other universes" twice.

Passive EE might be good.

Well, Omega's barely touched upon, probably because people hated its lighter tone and how the older Saints are treated. But that load of feats you shown before...

The series seems to make a distinction between "Dimension" "time" and "world/universe/future." I could post scans clarifying this but I'm heading to work now

everyone gets resistance to Type 2 concept manipulation because of Omega that also reminds me. Libra Genbu used his Libra nunchunks to open a portal to Saturn's End of Time which is supposed to transcend the Multiverse.

Uranus had like 4 pages about him, abd Gaia had like 8 lol. The only relevant thing about Gaia was Typhon.


Is it possible they could have hsx that affects 2-A's??


Wouldn't zeus need someway to counter Cronus supposed Infinite speed attack? That would require Infinite speed reactions... But tbh in the future I'll be doing a speed revision of the Gods.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

YO CAN ANYONE CONFIRM IF THIS IS LEGIT!!!!

BECAUSE WE JUST GOT MEGAVERSAL SAINT SEIYA CHARACTERS!!!! (Infintity*Infinity above baseline 2-A)

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

As reluctant I am to rain on your parade...

Dohko's "Multiverses" seem to refer to the "Various Universe, Worlds" he mentioned above, not the entire Saint Seiya Multiverse.

But that's my interpretation.

Might be a good idea to call some more Saint Seiya knowledgeables here as well.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Its put into a pulral form and it then contines on the sentence saying there is some existing next to each other. It seems he separates them out intentionally.

We also have this from Chapter 111

"Pages 10-11

Aiolos: The phenomenon of gravitational collapse has transformed the black hole ...

Aiolos: ... into a portal that connects this world present to a world of another dimension.

Aiolos: However, we can only connect to one other dimension ... to one parallel world.

Aiolos: Even by releasing the power of the Crystal Vortex ...

Aiolos: ... it is impossible to connect this world to any other ...

Aiolos: ... as well as the multiple dimensions and the many possible futures . "

One other dimension is to 1 set of parallel worlds then later he states there is Multiple dimensions many futures

in chapter 96 Zeus seems to make some distinction between "World" "Time" and "Dimension"

"P06 / 07

Zeus: But you ...

Zeus: ... It belongs to me.

Zeus: Independent of the world, or of time ...

Zeus: In any dimension that is ..."

and very early on we get a Gladitator that seems to make a distinction between "Universes" "Time" and "Dimensions"

I got excited is all too so i also want to cross translate it withother languages.

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

Now what I'm still iffy: How does it scale to Zeus, if it was stated the usage of it will kill Zeus, yet here we are, with Zeus beating the crap out of Cronus.

Cronus never says that can kill Zeus. The god only says that Zeus can't stop the destruction of time. Even a god like Hades (like a soul) in Tartarus is not affected by the power of Cronus.

Zeus is much more powerful than Cronus, because in the manga it is said that Zeus defeated the Titans and Cronus when he acquired his weapon, Keraunos or Lightning. And Zeus is currently much more powerful than when he defeated Cronus, because he now has his armor and probably a divine weapon like his brothers.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I see. The translation on his profile said "not even Zeus will survive", so I though that all along.

But this still leaves me with the "It's an overtime hax" and "2-C would go better in the scaling chain" doubt though.

Particularly the former.

 

[Crateris_Aeson]

Cronus says:

• https://imgur.com/a/VfKJIUG

A chama de meus bra├ºos é um indicador. Cada chama que se apaga é mais um desvio do tempo. Se n├úo me destruirem antes de todas elas se apagaram... Tudo aqui e na terra entrara em colapso e acabara em ru├¡nas. E isso nem Zeus poderia evitar...

He just says that Zeus can't stop the destruction of time.

And it is likely that this does not affect Olympus, because Cronus says it only affects the human world and Tartarus.

But this still leaves me with the "It's an overtime hax" and "2-C would go better in the scaling chain" doubt though.

Zeus is probably 2-B without powerscaling, because the black nucleus (black hole) that fuses the worlds and destroys the world of the death and almost destroys the universe was created by the power of Zeus when he escaped from the world of the death (described in the latter chapter of Assassin), even the black nucleus disappears at the end when Shura defeats Zeus (this confirms that it was his power).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ah that makes sense because their realms don't have a flow of time so they were okay, but it's possible that Cronus could have a had had advantage over Zeus, but really it's really really vague how Zeus could fight him to a stalemate for 10 years.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Huh hum. Now, we have 2-B range Fusionism via Black Seeds (or Black Nucleus? The Kanji + Furigana confuses me) Which might be able to translate into AP

So where should we go next? Continue with the Cronus scaling, or talk about more Multiversal feats?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The black hole thing that connects world's is like baseline low Multiversal if don't talk about multiple Multiverses


A lot of people scale from the "Big bang" and Athena exclamation.

 

[DrunkHC]

In the manga Kurumada Suidoken to various characters of different works of Masami Kurumada. In this work the word world is equivalent to universe, the context makes it evident.

six different works were merged for the creation of this work: Fuma no Kojiro, Ring ni Kakero, Otoko Zaka, Raimei no Zaji, B'Tx and Saint Seiya.

The characters in each of these verses are from different worlds and realities.

http://es.ninemanga.com/chapter/Kurumada Suikoden: Hero of Heroes/363181-2.html

Shaka (ND) must have become the most powerful gold saint among the original gold surpassing Saga, said to have more Hype than feats.

Ikki recognizes Shijima as someone more powerful than Shaka.

Shaka (ND) >>> Shijima >>> Shaka (12 temples)

In fact Shaka (arc Hades/Saint Shou) is already easily superior to Saga

Shaka Saint Seiya official website profile: http://saintseiya-official.com/museum/character/index.php?id=34

The technic that created universes is being shown as a Shaka attack.

Shaka(Taizen)


Tenbu horin


Shaka, com todo o seu conhecimento do universo, desfere o golpe secreto Tesouro do Céu.

Shaka, with all her knowledge of the universe, unleashes the secret Treasure of Heaven.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

A little question but...

Should we really place deadguy (Aiolos) in the strongest Gold Saint class?

Reminder, he died when most other Gold Saints (like Shaka) are not even 10 years old and feels "they're not strong enough yet"

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

i found a scan that says that Aiolia (The brother of Aiolos) is the 2nd strongest Gold Saint with help from a friend

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

btw Hades helped fight Zeus

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also Erasure from all dimensions??

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also Aiolia is tied with the strongest gold saint.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

What are dimensions in Saint Seiya again? It sounds like alternate universes to me.

As for Aiolia's rating, I'm actually surprised he's not in the "stronger Gold Saints" class in the Wiki.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

He has feats of hanging with Shaka, and thats also whose he's being compared too.


Dimensions vary based on the series. But without going into multiple Multiverses it would be universes imo

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Shaka was likely the other strongest Gold Saint being compared to in the scan.

Deadguy wasn't stated as a strong Gold Saint yet, and Saga has yet to make a proper appearance, and Aiolia was stalemating Shaka before getting brainwashed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I hate saga.... Sssooo..... XD


Also, when aiolia met sienna. He said her Cosmo was stronger then any if the gold saints, but he didn't say the pope..

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

The Grand Pope was more like the commander, not the fighter, so I don't see any reason for him to be compared.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Grand Pope was more like the commander, not the fighter, so I don't see any reason for him to be compared.

Athena seemingly makes a distinction between past, and future and "Next Dimension" and "All dimensions" https://i.imgur.com/hnXd5nn.jpg