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Satoru Gojo vs Klein Moretti [12-12-0]

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I forgot to correct you on this, but Spirit Body potency does affect time elapsed to initial control and full marionettization, the 5 seconds figure assumes the target has a Spirit Body as powerful as the marionettist. This is a quote from chapter 683 back when Klein had just advanced and needed 20 seconds to control a Beyonder with same Spirit Body potency

And I didn't harp on the 5 seconds figure before either because then the conversation becomes an argument on how powerful are the souls of Beyonders and whether Gojo's soul can be considered on the same level, weaker, stronger, etc. And once that's sorted out we jump on the argument of how many seconds does Bribe - Weaken shave off Gojo's initial control timer. Easier to just use the 5 seconds as reference. A quote from the Slaughterer Kircheis fight showing this (he is still fresh off advancement and needs 20 seconds):
Pretty sure I forgot to index Bribe - Weaken lol even though the scan is in there. I’ll fix it in my next CRT then

In any case I alr said that he can combo a lot with stun abilities like interrogator and then pop a charm or something. He could also just prohibit teleportation or blue in general if required and then screw Gojo like that
 
Just a reminder that casting is severely affected under the marionettization and Klein can easily activate Fate Siphon to kill himself if Gojo tries escaping this way
Which lasts how many seconds? Depending on how long the explosion from unlimited hollow purple is, Klein will still suffer damage once the charm's effects wear off and Gojo will take even less damage from his own techniques so fate siphon isn't giving him the dub.

Like I've mentioned, the astral projection strategy isn't in character for the GOAT Gerhman Sparrow and as for marionettization, any significant external influence is able to break him out of it. He could yeet himself forcefully or fly out of range with blue. This becomes a lot more likely if we accept the 6 eyes being capable of seeing spirit body threads
 
Which lasts how many seconds? Depending on how long the explosion from unlimited hollow purple is, Klein will still suffer damage once the charm's effects wear off and Gojo will take even less damage from his own techniques so fate siphon isn't giving him the dub.
This can’t work since Fate Siphon affects the fate of “dying” itself, so Klein’s death from HP will be transferred to Gojo. He might take damage but he literally can’t die of it
 
Which lasts how many seconds? Depending on how long the explosion from unlimited hollow purple is, Klein will still suffer damage once the charm's effects wear off and Gojo will take even less damage from his own techniques so fate siphon isn't giving him the dub.
Reminder that Klein can resurrect. Even if Hollow Purple did function as an area of effect destruction beyond the Fate Siphon's operation and killed Klein (assuming the charm works this way), Gojo will be vaporized thanks to Klein's fate and Klein will resurrect within 3 days.
Like I've mentioned, the astral projection strategy isn't in character for the GOAT Gerhman Sparrow
It is in character considering that both know each other's abilities and Klein knows that his Astral Projection will provide an absurdly overwhelming advantage to win this fight. Although he doesn't often have the opportunity to do it (and LotM characters can interact with Astral Projections), Klein occasionally considers summoning himself and does so when he isn't worried about leaking information like in Calderón CIty or believes that the reward matches the risk like when he checked on Kalvetua's corpse for treasure. Both conditions are met here.

But anyways, I need to apologize: I just realized a problem with my logic, haha. I said that he can Fate Siphon one of Gojo's attempts at freeing himself, whether Blue, Red or Purple. And while this does make sense on its own, any one of them can kill him and he can transfer that fate to Gojo to win, it doesn't when considering the strategy adopted, hahaha. If Gojo can't interact with Astral Projection, naturally Klein can't use him to commit suicide.

He can still commit suicide personally, especially when I checked in chapter 943 that its feasible to activate Fate Siphon first and then use a recorded Lightning Storm for a thorough suicide, but it's not as perfectly clear of a win condition as I hoped it to be.

fly out of range with blue
Characters with flight can't use it to break free from Spirit Body Threads control as shown in the fight with Sharron and Senor (unless you don't mean flight as stimuli but a means to physically being out of range of the initial control. In which case I argue that speed is equalized, Astral Projections fly, Klein has precognition and Gojo's casting is crippled). But I accept that yeeting himself free with a Red and Blue is possible

I agree that Gojo can get free within a dozen or more seconds if he explodes himself with a red or blue. However, in the process he commits to a specific trajectory known by Klein through precog and his slowed thoughts and casting don't allow for feints. This presents a golden opportunity to use Ninth Law, Klein times its activation just as Gojo is about to break free/Red or blue activates and teleports to his destination with charm in hand. "Limitless is prohibited here". Then proceed to marionettize Gojo or kill himself for the lulz, I guess.

I maintain my vote on Klein
 
Reminder that Klein can resurrect. Even if Hollow Purple did function as an area of effect destruction beyond the Fate Siphon's operation and killed Klein (assuming the charm works this way), Gojo will be vaporized thanks to Klein's fate and Klein will resurrect within 3 days.

It is in character considering that both know each other's abilities and Klein knows that his Astral Projection will provide an absurdly overwhelming advantage to win this fight. Although he doesn't often have the opportunity to do it (and LotM characters can interact with Astral Projections), Klein occasionally considers summoning himself and does so when he isn't worried about leaking information like in Calderón CIty or believes that the reward matches the risk like when he checked on Kalvetua's corpse for treasure. Both conditions are met here.

But anyways, I need to apologize: I just realized a problem with my logic, haha. I said that he can Fate Siphon one of Gojo's attempts at freeing himself, whether Blue, Red or Purple. And while this does make sense on its own, any one of them can kill him and he can transfer that fate to Gojo to win, it doesn't when considering the strategy adopted, hahaha. If Gojo can't interact with Astral Projection, naturally Klein can't use him to commit suicide.

He can still commit suicide personally, especially when I checked in chapter 943 that its feasible to activate Fate Siphon first and then use a recorded Lightning Storm for a thorough suicide, but it's not as perfectly clear of a win condition as I hoped it to be.


Characters with flight can't use it to break free from Spirit Body Threads control as shown in the fight with Sharron and Senor (unless you don't mean flight as stimuli but a means to physically being out of range of the initial control. In which case I argue that speed is equalized, Astral Projections fly, Klein has precognition and Gojo's casting is crippled). But I accept that yeeting himself free with a Red and Blue is possible

I agree that Gojo can get free within a dozen or more seconds if he explodes himself with a red or blue. However, in the process he commits to a specific trajectory known by Klein through precog and his slowed thoughts and casting don't allow for feints. This presents a golden opportunity to use Ninth Law, Klein times its activation just as Gojo is about to break free/Red or blue activates and teleports to his destination with charm in hand. "Limitless is prohibited here". Then proceed to marionettize Gojo or kill himself for the lulz, I guess.

I maintain my vote on Klein
Ye I agree with a lot said here
 
its kinda lame that Klein's Marionettist key lack his 3 important marionettes for standard eq

I'll vote for Klein if this is his pre IZ fight minus his marionettes
 
I agree with some of the things said but...
Reminder that Klein can resurrect. Even if Hollow Purple did function as an area of effect destruction beyond the Fate Siphon's operation and killed Klein (assuming the charm works this way), Gojo will be vaporized thanks to Klein's fate and Klein will resurrect within 3 days.
I don't think it works that way? I mean even though it turned out that he was pulled into a dream, Ince didn't die after he and Leonard's fate were swapped. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, didn't Leonard still swap fates with him right before taking a lightning storm?
Leonard himself would've died from it but Ince Zangwill was fine. He didn't receive the fate of "dying from lightning storm" what he got was "being struck by lightning".
It's basically a glorified OP body switching charm.

While on this topic, Klein using the Fate Siphon charm on Gojo to prevent his escape is impossible while achieving initial control is impossible unless he is stupid (and my boi is not) cause he will receive the fate of having his own spirit body threads controlled and be on the verge of becoming a marionette.
It is in character considering that both know each other's abilities and Klein knows that his Astral Projection will provide an absurdly overwhelming advantage to win this fight. Although he doesn't often have the opportunity to do it (and LotM characters can interact with Astral Projections), Klein occasionally considers summoning himself and does so when he isn't worried about leaking information like in Calderón CIty or believes that the reward matches the risk like when he checked on Kalvetua's corpse for treasure. Both conditions are met here.
Calderon city is a special case as the ingredients from his next potion could only be obtained there, he also wasn't in his Gerhman Sparrow persona there. Kalvetua was also a special case because the sea God was in the spirit world so the only way to get to it was with an Astral projection.
But anyways, I need to apologize: I just realized a problem with my logic, haha. I said that he can Fate Siphon one of Gojo's attempts at freeing himself, whether Blue, Red or Purple. And while this does make sense on its own, any one of them can kill him and he can transfer that fate to Gojo to win, it doesn't when considering the strategy adopted, hahaha. If Gojo can't interact with Astral Projection, naturally Klein can't use him to commit suicide.

He can still commit suicide personally, especially when I checked in chapter 943 that its feasible to activate Fate Siphon first and then use a recorded Lightning Storm for a thorough suicide, but it's not as perfectly clear of a win condition as I hoped it to be.
Scribe abilities? Does he have Leymano's Travels here?
Characters with flight can't use it to break free from Spirit Body Threads control as shown in the fight with Sharron and Senor (unless you don't mean flight as stimuli but a means to physically being out of range of the initial control. In which case I argue that speed is equalized, Astral Projections fly, Klein has precognition and Gojo's casting is crippled). But I accept that yeeting himself free with a Red and Blue is possible
The latter but both work. Yeeting himself in any direction is a good way to quickly produce external stimuli to break control.
I agree that Gojo can get free within a dozen or more seconds if he explodes himself with a red or blue. However, in the process he commits to a specific trajectory known by Klein through precog and his slowed thoughts and casting don't allow for feints. This presents a golden opportunity to use Ninth Law, Klein times its activation just as Gojo is about to break free/Red or blue activates and teleports to his destination with charm in hand. "Limitless is prohibited here". Then proceed to marionettize Gojo or kill himself for the lulz, I guess.

I maintain my vote on Klein
Pretty sure ninth law cannot neutralize limitless as a whole. I also doubt Klein always sees what is going to happen next especially since it pertains to what affects him in combat.

Either way, the initial control is broken and Klein will not want to be within range of the guy who will put hands on him regardless of his technique. Blink won't always be on the table as there are more useful beyonder powers in creeping hunger and switching between them does take some time (isn't instant).
 
I don't think it works that way? I mean even though it turned out that he was pulled into a dream, Ince didn't die after he and Leonard's fate were swapped. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, didn't Leonard still swap fates with him right before taking a lightning storm?
Leonard himself would've died from it but Ince Zangwill was fine. He didn't receive the fate of "dying from lightning storm" what he got was "being struck by lightning".
It's basically a glorified OP body switching charm.
It's a bit inconsistent, but it's certainly not a glorified body switching charm. If you take the Spirit World Plunderer fight, for example, Klein was put on the verge of losing control by seeing its weakest possible Mythical Creature Form for a moment (barely resisting thanks to Tyrant card's status) and was about to become a puppet. But as soon as he used Fate Siphon, Klein regained lucidity as if nothing happened and the Spirit World Plunderer was put into the verge of losing control, despite it possessing godhood to resist and Klein seeing its MCF well before the charm was activated.

When Audrey used it against Hvin Rambis, the fact that the latter only put enough effort to mentally subvert a Hypnotist was not really relevant and he was put in the verge of being brainwashed despite his godhood resistance.

But it's true that it's not a completely certain win condition, which is why I prefer Ninth Law.
While on this topic, Klein using the Fate Siphon charm on Gojo to prevent his escape is impossible while achieving initial control is impossible unless he is stupid (and my boi is not) cause he will receive the fate of having his own spirit body threads controlled and be on the verge of becoming a marionette.
Pretty sure the switch is selective. Evil spirit medici and Ince were both given mega bad luck on the angel level by the Misfortune Charm but Ludwell marionette who switched fates with Ince Zangwill managed to smoothly banish Medici to the Underworld and Ince Zangwill kept being unlucky. Which should not have been possible if he took Ince Zangwill's luck. Also, even if he did receive the fate of being controlled, it would only be the fate of initial control since Gojo can't have his casting interrupted by conventional physical means (I thought of Klein recording a Blue or Red during the fight to interrupt his casting twice but it's too difficult to succeed and probably doesn't last until complete control).

I reread the Mr. X fight and am more convinced that Klein can win this. Injecting spirituality doesn't affect initial control as badly as I thought it did, so Ninth Law can probably be used even without a convoluted plan.
Pretty sure ninth law cannot neutralize limitless as a whole.
Why not? We have prohibitions disabling whole categories of abilities (Teleportation, Stand-ins, Concealment, etc.) but it cannot neutralize a single specific cursed technique when it's crossverse? RCT, Six eyes and CE manipulation are all in perfect operation. Gojo just can't activate Limitless. It's pretty much an Inverted Spear of Heaven applied over an area.

I also doubt Klein always sees what is going to happen next especially since it pertains to what affects him in combat.
Maybe his precognition isn't perfect, but he also has a dozen seconds observing Gojo's actions and collecting information for his Spiritual Intuition to work and the opportunity to boost it by fiddling with a coin (makeshift dream divination). I believe that the odds that he can predict his trajectory are very high. Especially since this is the kind of stunt that he used during Mr. X's hurricane. Speaking of which:
but both work
Mr. X was flying through the skies in a hurricane but it didn't affect his control progress (in fact, the only action contributing to Mr. X freeing himself was Klein violently moving to quickly kill him with Death Manip/whatever reaping is currently classified in the profiles right now that bypassed head regeneration). No, flying does not work as a stimuli, only a violent impulse can work.
Either way, the initial control is broken and Klein will not want to be within range of the guy who will put hands on him regardless of his technique
? Gojo can't interact with the astral projection, though. Of course Klein will want to be in range of the guy who will not be able to put hands on him regardless of his technique.
Blink won't always be on the table as there are more useful beyonder powers in creeping hunger and switching between them does take some time (isn't instant).
Some weird points. One, if Blink is working the best for the wincon and is a great safety net, why would Klein switch it for abilities that might put him in danger for limited gain? Two, switches took one second before it was upgraded by fusing with Mr. A, afterwards it's described as instant from a Relativistic reaction speed perspective (Klein even spams Blink and Demoness of Affliction at Enuni).
 
Why not? We have prohibitions disabling whole categories of abilities (Teleportation, Stand-ins, Concealment, etc.) but it cannot neutralize a single specific cursed technique when it's crossverse? RCT, Six eyes and CE manipulation are all in perfect operation. Gojo just can't activate Limitless. It's pretty much an Inverted Spear of Heaven applied over an area.
Each of those are one be yonder ability. Neutralizing limitless is akin to neutralizing a specific sequence or an entire pathway
Mr. X was flying through the skies in a hurricane but it didn't affect his control progress (in fact, the only action contributing to Mr. X freeing himself was Klein violently moving to quickly kill him with Death Manip/whatever reaping is currently classified in the profiles right now that bypassed head regeneration). No, flying does not work as a stimuli, only a violent impulse can work.
Mr. X or Mr. A? The one who assassinated the Intis ambassador? Klein was still a faceless there iirc or am I thinking of someone else?
Gojo can't interact with the astral projection, though. Of course Klein will want to be in range of the guy who will not be able to put hands on him regardless of his technique.
Forgot his entire wincon is centered around astral projection. My bad
Some weird points. One, if Blink is working the best for the wincon and is a great safety net, why would Klein switch it for abilities that might put him in danger for limited gain? Two, switches took one second before it was upgraded by fusing with Mr. A, afterwards it's described as instant from a Relativistic reaction speed perspective (Klein even spams Blink and Demoness of Affliction at Enuni).
Who is Mr. X then? Oh, the one who betrayed the Abraham family. That was honestly weird but it doesn't seem like the hurricane violently threw them away there.
 
I just realized, could Klein nullify Six Eyes? If he can then Gojo becomes literally useless
 
You can’t compare six eyes and “entire pathway” or “specific sequence”. Klein Fra
Mind you, the example Klein used was Godhood which is literally every power in the verse. The equivalent here is neutralizing all CE. But Klein won’t need to do that, because just nullifying Six Eyes is about as good
 
There was no 3 vote difference since Gojo also reached 7 votes for the past 72 hours, and there has been significant debate so this would qualify for inconclusive
 
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