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SCP Dimensionality
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
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Reposting my latest post in that thread here for convenience.
Because it doesn't make sense to give every character in the verse one of the highest 1-B on the site because we're working from the lowest level. We choose the main narrative because that's where 99.9999% of the content on the site is focused on, and where the rest of the content is relative to.
SCP-3812 (who has a profile here) is superior to the main narrative because it's on a constant ascension through higher narratives, each of which sees lower narratives as fiction.
SCP-1304 is a ritual for murder which when written into books causes a character to disappear from that book. In the week after publication a baby is born whose life will follow, as closely as possible, the life of the individual who was murdered in that book.
Are these the kind of things you wanted?
Because it doesn't make sense to give every character in the verse one of the highest 1-B on the site because we're working from the lowest level. We choose the main narrative because that's where 99.9999% of the content on the site is focused on, and where the rest of the content is relative to.
SCP-3812 (who has a profile here) is superior to the main narrative because it's on a constant ascension through higher narratives, each of which sees lower narratives as fiction.
SCP-1304 is a ritual for murder which when written into books causes a character to disappear from that book. In the week after publication a baby is born whose life will follow, as closely as possible, the life of the individual who was murdered in that book.
Are these the kind of things you wanted?
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It's being discussed in the Discord group and will ebook applied along with the verse-wide revision
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We get it you have a hateboner against SCP, can you just let it rest man?
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That is a good point on where to start determining layered dimensionality, but that bring up the point of "why don't we just treat them as whatever they have shown in their own narrative?" We have done this before, and it seems like for narratives below the primary SCP story that it would be the best option to avoid something that not only isn't possible, but isn't indicated in the source material (below dimensional narratives).Agnaa said:
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Ah
Agnaa is correct though, the verse is narrative stack
Agnaa is correct though, the verse is narrative stack
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- #9
This thread in and of itself has literally nothing to do with why I dislike SCP. If any verse had this kind of cosmology I'd be doing the exact same thing.SwathingDegenera777 said:
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I was planning on, for any profiles where it's relevant, having a key for within their own narrative, and a key for their position relative to the main narrative.
2747 was instead given 2 keys with "Varies" because I thought that was a neater solution than having 4 keys (11-C main narrative OC, Low 2-C own narrative OC, 11-C main narrative EC, 1-B own narrative EC), each with one of the tiers on the profile.
We don't just treat them as whatever they've shown in their own narrative because their influence on the main narrative is an important part of their story. We don't really take long gazes into higher/lower narratives, only quick ones with how they affect the main narrative.
2747 was instead given 2 keys with "Varies" because I thought that was a neater solution than having 4 keys (11-C main narrative OC, Low 2-C own narrative OC, 11-C main narrative EC, 1-B own narrative EC), each with one of the tiers on the profile.
We don't just treat them as whatever they've shown in their own narrative because their influence on the main narrative is an important part of their story. We don't really take long gazes into higher/lower narratives, only quick ones with how they affect the main narrative.
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He was probably joking lol
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Yeah I was pouring hotsauce on my lunch omelette and it splattered In my eye, and with my impaired vision I used text to speech because I thought I was on discord talking to a friend, my bad, sorry for derailment
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- #16
@Agnaa
This is still just such a weird subject to me. If we do just base the system around what appears in the main narrative then you would have "below dimensional" layers. Of course such a thing is impossible, but it isn't even true in the material, since the main narrative isn't the base, but is rather somewhere in the middle (maybe? idk where it is).
But the question is how do characters like this get placed into the tiering system? By all regards the main characters would basically be a bunch of 1-Bs fighting in a 1-B world, but since our perspective is primarily on them, should we treat them as less than they are in order to make them more neatly fit into the system while simultaneously making all characters in lower narratives, narratives that would still be high compared to other verses, as literally weaker than is possible?
This is still just such a weird subject to me. If we do just base the system around what appears in the main narrative then you would have "below dimensional" layers. Of course such a thing is impossible, but it isn't even true in the material, since the main narrative isn't the base, but is rather somewhere in the middle (maybe? idk where it is).
But the question is how do characters like this get placed into the tiering system? By all regards the main characters would basically be a bunch of 1-Bs fighting in a 1-B world, but since our perspective is primarily on them, should we treat them as less than they are in order to make them more neatly fit into the system while simultaneously making all characters in lower narratives, narratives that would still be high compared to other verses, as literally weaker than is possible?
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Assault, I hate to tell you, but there are other verses with numerous lower dimensions like I/O
Dark already past his verdict on how they should be tiered
Dark already past his verdict on how they should be tiered
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It may be impossible, but there's a lot of impossible things in fiction, being inferior to a 0-dimensional being in the same way that a 0-dimensional being would be inferior to a 1-dimensional being isn't that impossible.
One suggestion brought up by one of the consultants was to just use "Relative tiering", where the characters are always tiered relative to the narrative that they're in. I've essentially chased a combination of both, relative tiering for one key and main narrative perspective for another.
One suggestion brought up by one of the consultants was to just use "Relative tiering", where the characters are always tiered relative to the narrative that they're in. I've essentially chased a combination of both, relative tiering for one key and main narrative perspective for another.
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- Thread starter
- #19
Can I see the thread in which it was determined to treat characters that appear in a primary, yet middle layer, in layered cosmology as what they are relative to the others in the primary narrative?
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- #21
I read through it. I inquired on DarkLK's wall as to where it was determined that we should treat all narrative layers, if such layers are shown to be qualitatively similar, as increases in spatial dimensions.
That assumption in and of itself seems interesting to me if the layers are not shown to be spatially superior or more complex.
That assumption in and of itself seems interesting to me if the layers are not shown to be spatially superior or more complex.
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- #23
I know there are lower layers in I/O. I question why we consider lower narrative layers lower spatial dimensions if they have been shown to be comparable in spatial complexity.Jobbo said:
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Different narratives aren't shown to have their own structures be spatially superior or more complex. But as from 3812's example, higher-narrative beings affect lower narratives in a way similar to but unquantifiably superior to higher-dimensional beings in those narratives.
As one example, reality warping within narratives in SCP, even from higher dimensional beings, is done through discrepancies with the level of reality in the area (humes), reality warpers have higher hume readings letting them bend reality around them to their will. SCP-3812 on the other hand is undetectable by hume readings, and countermeasures based off of those are ineffective.
EDIT: Quote from the article. Note that in-universe this is a memo from 2015, the existence of the narrative stack that's being described here as a possibility has been confirmed since then.
As one example, reality warping within narratives in SCP, even from higher dimensional beings, is done through discrepancies with the level of reality in the area (humes), reality warpers have higher hume readings letting them bend reality around them to their will. SCP-3812 on the other hand is undetectable by hume readings, and countermeasures based off of those are ineffective.
EDIT: Quote from the article. Note that in-universe this is a memo from 2015, the existence of the narrative stack that's being described here as a possibility has been confirmed since then.
| The last option is the worst. The last option is that SCP-3812 cannot be measured in Humes, because it's doing something else. Whatever fundamental aspect of its nature that allows it to warp reality is not the same aspect as literally everything else we have ever come across. Scranton hypothesized that there might be higher and lower dimensions of reality, different levels of manipulation in the grand construction of the universe. The difference between manipulating a rock with your hands and manipulating a rock with an atom bomb. He called the thing being manipulated the "narrative", and suggested that the narratives were stacked on top of either other, each creating the narrative of the narrative below it, and so on, until you reached some sort of dead space below them all. |
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- #25
@Agnaa
I mean in a verse like Re:Creators the primary world's creators have control over the narrative of the created world and have even been described as "fate with a face" even though they are not dimensionaly superior to their creations, but rather as just being enabled by the verse's cosmology.
Also if a "higher narrative" is over all higher dimensional beings of one of the lower narratives how does that honestly fit into anything but Unknown? If a narrative isn't just a spatial dimension but rather something even greater then why would we treat these characters are inferior spatially when, in fact, they are inferior in such a greater scale?
I mean in a verse like Re:Creators the primary world's creators have control over the narrative of the created world and have even been described as "fate with a face" even though they are not dimensionaly superior to their creations, but rather as just being enabled by the verse's cosmology.
Also if a "higher narrative" is over all higher dimensional beings of one of the lower narratives how does that honestly fit into anything but Unknown? If a narrative isn't just a spatial dimension but rather something even greater then why would we treat these characters are inferior spatially when, in fact, they are inferior in such a greater scale?
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Well 11-C accounts for being inferior in a greater scale. Regardless on whether you count each narrative as 1 dimension because of the reality-fiction difference, or 4-196,884 dimensions based on the total dimensionality of each narrative, 2747 would still be 11-C for being qualitatively inferior to 0-D but real beings.
One problem I can see with this is SCP-3143 who is 11-A for being a fictional being that can bring areas of higher narratives into a lower narrative under his direction.
One problem I can see with this is SCP-3143 who is 11-A for being a fictional being that can bring areas of higher narratives into a lower narrative under his direction.
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- #27
Just seems like a system that jumps from 11-C to 1-A in a single layer of its "narrative", which is absolutely bonkers and seems completely unquantifiable.
Also if it can bring things up on a level that is basically jumping from negative dimensional to transcending dimensions I just can't even anymore.
Also if it can bring things up on a level that is basically jumping from negative dimensional to transcending dimensions I just can't even anymore.
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Nothing in SCP is 1-A; it only jumps from 11-C to 1-B. While higher-narrative beings are superior to higher-dimensional beings in lower narratives, these beings don't go beyond "Sees a 196,884 dimensional being as a 196,884 dimensional being sees an ant".
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- #29
@Agnaa
With all due respect, it has to be 1-A. If all of dimensionality is jumped in between the narrative jumps, then it must be. Basically if all dimensions, 0-infinity, are contained within 1 narrative layer, yet the beings of a higher narrative layer are beyond such a narrative, that means that they are above the dimensionality of the previous narrative, AKA 1-A.
Because of this a narrative jump goes over an entire dimensional existence, causing even a 0-D to jump to 1-A, or a "below-D" to go to 0-D, and so on and so forth. Because of that two narrative jumps would take a below-dimensional character straight to 1-A.
With all due respect, it has to be 1-A. If all of dimensionality is jumped in between the narrative jumps, then it must be. Basically if all dimensions, 0-infinity, are contained within 1 narrative layer, yet the beings of a higher narrative layer are beyond such a narrative, that means that they are above the dimensionality of the previous narrative, AKA 1-A.
Because of this a narrative jump goes over an entire dimensional existence, causing even a 0-D to jump to 1-A, or a "below-D" to go to 0-D, and so on and so forth. Because of that two narrative jumps would take a below-dimensional character straight to 1-A.
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@Assalt
You are thinking about it from a purely logical perspective instead of how the writings themselves portray it.
Which, granted, is a bit of an issue in itself. Though a lot of franchises that take a similar approach to cosmology suffer from this problem.
You are thinking about it from a purely logical perspective instead of how the writings themselves portray it.
Which, granted, is a bit of an issue in itself. Though a lot of franchises that take a similar approach to cosmology suffer from this problem.
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It's never stated that all of dimensionality is jumped in between narrative jumps, only that they're superior to all higher-dimensional beings within that narrative. And these higher-dimensional beings never go "Ludicriously above 196,884-dimensional". It's unlikely that there are infinite dimensions within one narrative layer. (Weekly is pushing for each narrative having uncountably infinite dimensions but that evidence isn't going to be presented until he publishes his cosmology blog).
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- #33
@Azzy
But the writings themselves are seemingly inconsistent and don't know what standard to follow.
But the writings themselves are seemingly inconsistent and don't know what standard to follow.
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I'm not really going to disagree with this.Assaltwaffle said:
I'm just going to say I'm not entirely sure how to solve it.
These are often the writings and visions of many people, not of one guy. So things can change pretty drastically between writings.
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No, multiple knowledgeable people reviewed this evidence around a year ago and concluded that even if each narrative was High 1-B none of the verse would be 1-A. The closest beings would be those that transcend the narrative hierarchy as a whole, but since the narrative hierarchy isn't necessarily endless that still wouldn't be 1-A.DMB 1 said:
Apparently being qualitatively superior to High 1-B isn't enough to be 1-A. I'll try to dig up the threads/posts.
EDIT: This thread went through a lot of topics related to SCP upgrades, but here is Saikou on why this narrative stuff doesn't give 1-A, and wouldn't even if the narratives were High 1-B. The rest of the thread has more discussion on 1-A, but it also goes over High 1-B, and how we treat extended canon.
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- #36
@Azzy
Yeah, that's basically my problem with SCP. Of course other fictions have this issue, but it seems to be massively extrapolated in the SCP verse.
@Agnaa
Well unfortunately if the characters can bridge the jump from "below dimensions" to "dimensions" than they absolutely can go from "dimensions" to "above dimensions" since each dimensional sphere is relative to the narrative it is in. If all of dimensionality is within a narrative layer and this narrative layer is jumped, then that previous dimensional complexity, no matter how advanced, will appear as below dimensions to the next layer.
That is almost verbatim the requirements for 1-A from a layered cosmology perspective.
Yeah, that's basically my problem with SCP. Of course other fictions have this issue, but it seems to be massively extrapolated in the SCP verse.
@Agnaa
Well unfortunately if the characters can bridge the jump from "below dimensions" to "dimensions" than they absolutely can go from "dimensions" to "above dimensions" since each dimensional sphere is relative to the narrative it is in. If all of dimensionality is within a narrative layer and this narrative layer is jumped, then that previous dimensional complexity, no matter how advanced, will appear as below dimensions to the next layer.
That is almost verbatim the requirements for 1-A from a layered cosmology perspective.
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I mean, you can argue it with Saikou and others (I edited my last post to link to 1-A being rejected), but there's near-universal disagreement among staff for 1-A SCP.
I expected it to be 1-A too, but according to every knowledgeable person I talked to about 1-A, SCP doesn't meet the qualifications.
I expected it to be 1-A too, but according to every knowledgeable person I talked to about 1-A, SCP doesn't meet the qualifications.
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- #38
It wouldn't have been if all of dimensionality in and of itself wasn't jumped in between narrative layers, but that is the way it is currently being described.
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