Shinza banshou discussion thread~Revival~

[Infera28]

Welcome to the light. Anyway, only beriah reinhard should scale since that was the only way he could have harmed him

I had forgotten that one scan but the main problem I've had with it in the past is that 5-A and 3-A Methuselah are accepted on the basis that each night is equivalent to the destruction of half the planet, yet this feat is actually based on hax, not AP. If I want to be strict, the fact that it was said that the dark regions are part of Methuselah and move with him is also ambiguous, and it can only mean that the darkness of those regions moves, not the whole region, so I would actually prefer tier 6 for Reinhard and Methuselah. Anyway, I don't think I'll make a thread for Reinhard and Methuselah tier again, because the previous thread gave me so much stress.

I Believe that Base Reinhard will be just as powerful as Bri'ah Reinhard or extremely close to it; Bri'ah is activated and maintained by burning only a few souls / a small amount of power, yet Base Reinhard also has millions of souls that he can easily use in different forms (Spiritual Armor, Attack, Hax and etc); We also saw in the Wilhelm fight that if an Apostle wanted to, they could even manipulate and burn all their souls at Assiah level with every attack; and we saw Reinhard destroy Methuselah with one single blast from LLT; We also saw later that Yetzirah Ren and Kai could damage and kill Bri'ah Rusalka, so the gap between Yetzirah and Bri'ah isn't too far.

Are we sure about this? The only time Reinhard damaged Methuselah was after he had already been wounded to the point of death due to Wilhelm's plan. And I'm not going to lie, but I don't remember anywhere that Reinhard was mentioned as a possible match for him.

In fact, it was implied that Methuselah was holding back against Wilhelm throughout the fight and did not use his arcane powers until the last moment. I won't say that he was dying, he still had at least millions of nights that were later destroyed by Reinhard and then Methuselah still survived for minutes and defeated Wilhelm in combat. It was said that Reinhard could break Methuselah in quality, quantity and status

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

In fact, it was said that Methuselah was holding back against Wilhelm throughout the fight and did not use his arcane powers until the last moment. I won't say that he was dying, he still had at least millions of nights that were later destroyed by Reinhard and then Methuselah still survived for minutes and defeated Wilhelm in combat.

Just to point this out, in the original JP ver for IkaBey, the number of nights Meth's was described even as he was getting ass-blasted/face-blasted by Reinhard's Lanze (Yeah~ owo) was said as Nayuta (Video I screenshot for reference. If you ask or point out, yes the quality is not good. The poster could only get it to 360p for some reason but don't blame them for that). It's also been the same said everytime Methuselah's nights/darkness he embodies also gets described, such as when he boogey'd man all of Europe (Vid reference) to when Schreiber was throwing a fit and Meth is smack talking him (Vid reference).

The kanji for Nayuta, ofc, you want to look for is 那由多 as the original IkaBey used. Unless I miscounted, it was like...3 times it was used, all to the way to the aforementioned ass-blasting/face-blasting Reinhard gave him?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Are we sure about this? The only time Reinhard damaged Methuselah was after he had already been wounded to the point of death due to Wilhelm's plan. And I'm not going to lie, but I don't remember anywhere that Reinhard was mentioned as a possible match for him.

It was said by two characters.

One by Wilhelm, who said that Reinhard had the necessary traits to break Methuselah through "quality, quantity, and status" (Vid reference. 1:08:13 mark if time stamper doesn't work) as he was fighting Meth while being boosted by Glads high-quality souls.

Another was by Karl Kraft/Mercurius when he and Reinhard were chilling while watching everyone get slaughtered like lamb, where Reinhard and Karl brought up the "two methods in beating Methuselah". One by "adhering him to logic" and the other by "fighting him with all of one's might". (Vid Reference. 57:40 mark if time stamper doesn't work).

In the same scan with Karl and Reinhard, Karl notes that Reinhard would have been able to just do the latter had he stepped into the fight with Meth at any point but would have nulled the other method. But Reinhard, being "Commander-like", wanted to win a battle using "all fronts", hence he didn't go until Wilhelm went and had his fight to later did his thing "via logic" method.

Hope this clears it up cuz it's only these two guys who said "Reinhard got this if he fought him".

 

[Infera28]

Just to point this out, in the original JP ver for IkaBey, the number of nights Meth's was described even as he was getting ass-blasted/face-blasted by Reinhard's Lanze (Yeah~ owo) was said as Nayuta (Video I screenshot for reference. If you ask or point out, yes the quality is not good. The poster could only get it to 360p for some reason but don't blame them for that). It's also been the same said everytime Methuselah's nights/darkness he embodies also gets described, such as when he boogey'd man all of Europe (Vid reference) to when Schreiber was throwing a fit and Meth is smack talking him (Vid reference).

The kanji for Nayuta, ofc, you want to look for is 那由多 as the original IkaBey used. Unless I miscounted, it was like...3 times it was used, all to the way to the aforementioned ass-blasting/face-blasting Reinhard gave him?

Thank you for clarifying. May I know which part of the story is this statement based on?

A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

I guess someone who read the Japanese version will know more about that statement. The only thing I saw in the English version was this scan, which talks about some kind of ying and yang hax, which I don't know what it has to do with AP.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Thank you for clarifying. May I know which part of the story is this statement based on?



I guess someone who read the Japanese version will know more about that statement. The only thing I saw in the English version was this scan, which talks about some kind of ying and yang hax, which I don't know what it has to do with AP.

"May I know which part of the story is this statement based on?"

Are you asking if it's on hax or AP? Was confused by what you mean here.

 

[Infera28]

Are you asking if it's on hax or AP? Was confused by what you mean here.

Yes, because Methuselah's AP is scaled to this A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

 

[HypotheticMage]

snip

Yeah, that cleared that up. I must have missed that lol. Thanks!

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Yes, because Methuselah's AP is scaled to this A single night's mystery requires the destruction of half the planet

Ah. I would say it's AP considering the nights he embodies are a part of him. Just like how a person or animal moves around, their shadow moves with them. That would be akin to what Methuselah does only way more destructive. Though I can see why it may seem like hax cuz whatever Methuselah does, it can kinda go...all over the place? Sometimes he makes those jaws things, and they can clearly physically F someone up or make that night prison thing he sealed Machina in...or something. IDK. I would say they're as physical and can have an effect on material stuff if Methuselah wields it to.

Depends on what the rest of y'all would say tho, I'm just getting whatever to help clarify stuff.

As for that in the original, it does say "yin-yang" (Video reference. 3:18 if time stamp don't work) too but I can see why the localization put light and darkness as I'm sure that's what it alludes to anyway.

Spoiler

(Rough TL)

As a result, the answer was quite simple if Ludwig were to freely move about while intentionally exerting his power.

All of the darkness in the areas where the morning shall never arrive would be stripped. It would turn into a void of neither yin and yang. In other words, it would vanish.

Thus, if he went from East to West...to all over the globe as he pleased, the world would be destroyed.

Of course, Ludwig had no intentions of doing such a thing. But he was a being who certainly had the power to do so.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Yeah, that cleared that up. I must have missed that lol. Thanks!

Ah, no worries.

VN's are long to go through so I don't blame ya xD

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Infera28 to add to what qliphoth said, think of it as stability feats

This is a type of feat where a character's existence, energy, presence, or any given factor from them sustains a structure on any given scale. And through their sustenance, their statistics are subsequently tiered to being at the level of power that is relative to the given scale of the structure they sustain.

Of all the requirements, this is what I think is vague and he still qualifies.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Practically, his darkness are not independent of his statistics, he is that darkness itself, so he would scale.
Which is why the part where all nights he has accumulated causes the destruction of the universe is an environmental destruction.

 

[Infera28]

I probably won't be able to get my point across so you can ignore me, but I'll write my thoughts anyway.

Well, it is true that the nights of Methuselah have physical effects, but it was said that if Methuselah removed them from the regions where there was no morning light, then there will be no more light and darkness there, so a kind of void will be created and those regions will be erased. This is saying that the reason for the erasure or destruction of those regions will be the lack of light / yin and darkness / yang, not that all the regions that are covered by darkness will suddenly be physically removed by force from the earth along with the darkness. This is actually saying that Methuselah only controls the darkness of those regions.

For example, suppose my house is covered by night. Now the whole mass and energy of my house is not part of the night and is not sustained by it, but if the night is removed, and there is no day either, then my house will be destroyed in a void of nothingness.

It is true that nights have physical effects, but nights are actually metaphysical constructs that affect physical things to an unknown extent. We cannot say that if the night covers a house, then now the whole mass and energy of that house is a part of the night, but due to its metaphysical nature, the night conceptually, mentally and physically affects the house to an unknown extent. Concepts are metaphysical things but they also effect physical things too. The reason for the destruction of the universe is that if darkness / yang is removed, it will destroy the duality system, because yin without yang is meaningless.

So now change Reinhard and Methuselah tier to 6-B so they become the most overpowered 6-B on the site.

 

[Infera28]

But actually, if I'm honest, it's very difficult and maybe even impossible to understand the true tier of Reinhard and Methuselah. It is possible that both Base Reinhard and Methuselah are actually 1-A, Only Atziluth 1-A is stronger than them, This can especially be said about Reinhard. We also know that Bri'ah has 1-A hax.

 

[Ovy7]

How would Briah be 1-A in the new system tho?

 

[Infera28]

How would Briah be 1-A in the new system tho?

I'm assuming that Reality / Fiction transcendence in Shinza will pass as 1-A. Mercurius' law / flow is 1-A and Bri'ah temporary overpowers, rewrites and resists it in a small scale; It was also stated in parts of the story that the only difference between Bri'ah and Atziluth is scale / range; Of course, I cannot confirm 1-A Bri'ah with certainty.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

I'm assuming that Reality / Fiction transcendence in Shinza will pass as 1-A. Mercurius' law / flow is 1-A and Bri'ah temporary overpowers, rewrites and resists it in a small scale; It was also stated in parts of the story that the only difference between Bri'ah and Atziluth is scale / range; Of course, I cannot confirm 1-A Bri'ah with certainty.

Are you trying to say that every briah user will have 1A hax?

 

[Infera28]

Are you trying to say that every briah user will have 1A hax?

It could be, but I can't say for sure, anyway, if I remember correctly, 1-A Bri'ah was accepted in past.

 

[Ovy7]

Past 1A is a different can of worms from the new 1A tho.

Not to mention that 1A Shinza wasn't even a thing by the time the verse was gone

 

[Infera28]

In fact, I don't think we can say with certainty that Bri'ah is 1-A, yes Bri'ah changes the laws of the world and resists them, but we don't know to what extent it does so, it is possible that its extent isn't even close to the level of Mercury's flow, even in a small range.

Past 1A is a different can of worms from the new 1A tho.

Not to mention that 1A Shinza wasn't even a thing by the time the verse was gone

I'm talking about when Shinza was still 1-A and people like Warren were active on the site.

 

[Infera28]

And I'm not saying that 1-A Shinza will be accepted, Shinza can be Low Complex Multiverse level and I won't care.

 

[Ovy7]

Shinza might be 1A due to the gods being the source of space-time and all that. Tho thay might only be baseline 1A and only for the Gods.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Not to mention that 1A Shinza wasn't even a thing by the time the verse was gone

Sure was before someone nuked that, and then the verse got nuked anyways goddamn~ owo

 

[Ovy7]

Sure was before someone nuked that, and then the verse got nuked anyways goddamn~ owo

True, but I meant at the time it was nuked for good

Also, nice to see you back on the wiki.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Shinza might be 1A due to the gods being the source of space-time and all that. Tho thay might only be baseline 1A and only for the Gods.

I mean every god worth their salt literally manipulates and is above every concept in their world well...yeah it would be 1-A. There is still the singularity but not the infinite transcendence thingy.

 

[Everything12]

The thing about Briah being 1-A is that though the new 1-A really doesn't like others reaching or effecting 1-A, is that the magic system that allowed them to perform this was created by a certain someone for a certain reason, which might work as a counterargument.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

True, but I meant at the time it was nuked for good

Also, nice to see you back on the wiki.

KEK.

Ye, though I was back already again since November last year. Just usually keep to myself + not on here as much as before cuz other stuff I do lol.

 

[Ovy7]

The thing about Briah being 1-A is that though the new 1-A really doesn't like others reaching or effecting 1-A, is that the magic system that allowed them to perform this was created by a certain someone for a certain reason, which might work as a counterargument.

Well, Briah was created by Mercurius iirc, so it might check that box.

 

[Everything12]

Yep, it was created by the god itself with the purpose of having Reinhard and Ren becoming gods (with the idea that this would lead to Marie changing to a emanation-type god, because Mercurius just loves to be difficult), so the magic system designed to facilitate this being able to interfere with his law shouldn't be seen as a massive anti-feat like other cases.

Plus the whole god changing system forced by Naraka could also help explain other cases of becoming gods.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Well, Briah was created by Mercurius iirc, so it might check that box.

Think you mean Ewigkeit, which Briah is a part of.

There's many statements of Karl (Mercurius) making it as commonly known, with IkaBey going as far as to describe it as being a dummy guide to becoming a God.

Although it's kinda a bit weird or questionable how true that holds up considering only Ren and Reinhard were able to achieve it (granted, probably has more to do with Reinhard being Merc's living cancer cell and Ren being Merc's son (creation)). Merc and Marie don't count since they never had to go through it + Masada stated in his old 2010 QnA that both were pureblood Gods.

 

[Everything12]

Meanwhile, no idea how we deal with Magsarion. I also don't know the exact details of how Nerose did it for him to count, (or if Paradise Lost is still 100% canon with no retcons needed). Pretty sure Hajun had the help of Naraka not wanting the sixth heaven to continue and whatever was going on with his parents.

 

[HypotheticMage]

Meanwhile, no idea how we deal with Magsarion.

If you're talking about his battle with Mithra, I don't think that would be much of a problem.

There is more than one statement that Mithra had fun with Mags throughout the battle and did not strike back seriously.

 

[Memonto_Mori]

Meanwhile, no idea how we deal with Magsarion. I also don't know the exact details of how Nerose did it for him to count, (or if Paradise Lost is still 100% canon with no retcons needed). Pretty sure Hajun had the help of Naraka not wanting the sixth heaven to continue and whatever was going on with his parents.

Magsarion is not powerful unless you handle the hadou form (muzan)

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I'm pretty sure the actual details is more to how Mags LACKS hadou traits aka the way to emanate throughout all of reality.

1st:
マグサリオンには覇者たる王の気質がない。ゆえにおまえでは駄目なのだと嗤(わら)っていた。おそらく真我はこの状況を続行させ、新しく生まれた覇道資格者たちの中で最強の存在に座を譲るつもりだろう。彼女にとってのマグサリオンは、さしずめ小うるさいだけの邪魔者だ。遠大な道のりを歩く過程で現れた、石ころにすぎない。

2nd:
だというのに、まったくの別物であった。蟻(あり)と獅子(しし)を生物の括りで同一視する以上に隔たっている。

美しい。ああ確かに、壮絶なほど見目麗しい女ではある。だがクワルナフの“美”に比べればどうということもなく、彼女を彼女たらしめる圧の正体は別にあった。

3rd:
よって真我に分裂を許したとき、ほぼ詰まされたと言っていい。相手の土俵で踊らざる を得なくなり、たとえもう一度滅尽しても片端から復活していく。

端的に切がなかった。そして長期戦はマグサリオンの不利である。

「何万年、何億年と繰り返しても構わんぞ。おまえとこうして戯れている間にも、新たな覇道資格者たちが生まれるだろう。さて、凶剣殿はいつまで保つかな」


真我が“みんな”を生み続けるということは、クワルナフやカイホスルーのごとき者らが次から次へと誕生する事態を意味していた。すなわち時をかければかけるほど、マグサリオンが滅ぼすべき者らは層が厚くなっていく。

1st:
Magsarion lacked the disposition of a ruling king (basically hegemonic traits). Therefore he was ridiculed and laughed at. Perhaps Shinga is letting the situation continue, she was going to yield the throne to the strongest existence among the newly born Hadou candidates. For her, Magsarion after all is fussy hinderance. That which appeared during the process of walking on a grand journey, he was but a pebble.

2nd:
Even though it was (similar), they were completely different things/beings. They are more separated/distant than an Ant and Lion who still can be equated as living creatures.

Beautiful. Ahh indeed, she is a fiercely/spectacularly beautiful woman. But in comparison to Khavarenah's "Beauty", the true identity of the pressure that make her what she is is different.

3rd:

Therefore Shinga was allowed to divide herself, almost as if to say it was a stand still. The partner would be then forced to dance to the opponent's arena, even if she was destroyed once more from one end she would just ressurect.

It was painfully straightforward. And a long term fight was disadvantageous for Magsarion.

"I don't care if it has to be repeated for ten of thousands of years, hundreds of millions (or could be just billions) of years. While I'm engaging in this tomfoolery with you, a new Hadou candidate will be born. Now, let's see how long you can maintain your wicked sword."

Shinga will continue to give birth to "everyone", the circumstances meant that people like Khavarenah and Kaikhosru would be born one after another. In other words the more time being spent, the layers of the one Magsarion have to destroy grows thicker.


Tldr; 1st Mags lack of hadou traits was noted (not sure if: "ゆえにおまえでは駄目なのだと嗤(わら)っていた" I should say "you" or "him" cuz it uses おまえ which means "you"). 2nd scan is useless as it's not talking about Mags and Shinga but Nadare(Sita) and Shinga. Sure he is "smaller" but really the 3rd paragraph and scan noted Mags WAS killing each "Mithra" but a long drawn out fight isn't good as her plan is to change thrones with another Hadou so she can just wait instead of fighting Mags on her own. In fact a paragraph before the 3rd scan even talks that in Mags current state he COULD kill all the Mithras as its the same principle as killing "everyone" but again its a race against time and the other solution was to change from "Madou" it will trigger Tentsui so that's like KMSing. Until he used all the prayers he took in (including the other Hadou candidates like Sirius) he was able to become a Hadou without commiting Tentsui (but Mithra notes his killing intent is dulled slightly thus he wasn't as strong as before). So yeah it was scale that Mags lacked rather than strength. She played with Mags because he won't be able to take the throne as he was then.

Edit: It doesn't really change anything as Mags is above Mithra. I just had to point out the factor that lead the stalemate is just how he works rather than a strength issue.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will try and drop an editable sandbox here during the weekend.
It will contain all the pages, everyone can work on it in case I missed anything.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

SNIP

Sounds like that still fits in line with Masada's old power scaling ladder of the Hegemony (Hadou) and Transcendence (Gudou) Gods back in the K3 VFB. Granted, there are other factors that I think he implanted since then that can still influence a potential fight between them and all, but on the base surface of it, it still sounds about right.

Spoiler

Q38: 神様シリーズにおける太極=流出格のキャラで、各々全盛時の強さランキングを教えてください。
純粋に神としての力量で、たとえば水銀は黄昏に殺されたがっているから負けるとか、そういうのは無しで。

A38: じゃあ細かく行きましょう。
波旬>夜刀>水銀=黄金(対水銀時限定)>黄昏=天照>明星=黄金(通常)=蓮>第二>第一>覇吐=竜胆=夜行>紫織=宗次郎>龍水。
神咒のパラメーターはスペースの都合とか色の種類とか色々問題があって七十をカンストにしていますが、実際はもっとあるはずで、百くらいをカンストにしたい。

そして夜刀がオール百のカンスト。波旬がそれを上回る計測不能で、水銀が九十くらいと思ってください。

ROUGH TL

Q38: Mind telling me how each of the characters Taikyoku = Emanation (Atziluth) in the Kamisama Series are based on their peak ranking in terms of their power?
In the sense of their ability purely as Gods and nothing of the sort, such as Mercury losing to Twilight due to letting them kill him.

A38: Then let's go over it.
Hajun (Marapapiyas) > Yatou (Edgy Ren) > Mercury (Karl) = Gold/Reinhard (When against Mercury) > Twilight (Marie) = Amaterasu (7th Heaven/Throne) > Myoujou (Satanael) = Gold (Normally) = Ren > 2nd Heaven/Throne (Magsarion/Muzanmuki) > First Heaven/Throne (Mithra) > Habaki = Rindou = Yakou > Shiori = Soujirou > Ryuusui.
There were various issues with the parameters for the Gods, such as space constraints and color types so I had it to 70 as the default. But in truth, I wanted it there to be more so I would have liked for 100 to be the default.

So Yatou would have 100 in total. Hajun would exceed that due to being immeasurable/impossible to measure, and I think Mercury would be around 90.

Source: Kajiri Kamui Kagura, Akebono no Hikari Visual Fanbook 2013, QnA Interview with Masada Takashi

Again, kinda old ish since this was right around a decade ago so clearly some things have changed/added/removed from the lore since. But in this case, it still seems to fit and apply even if you ignore the "values" bit.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I mean this is simply how they are in terms of "value" but we know while there is a value here its not the end all be all.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

shinza is finally returning after 49034802942 eternities?