Shouldn't Death of the Endless be 1-A?

[Soratoum]

She's been stated to claim Destiny at the very end of Creation, meaning she's more powerful than Destiny. Since Destiny is 1-A, shouldn't Death be 1-A as well?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with this

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

She should also have type 1 conceptual manipulation

 

[KingPin0422]

IIRC Death "claiming" Destiny is not a feat of power. It is simply something that is within Death's nature as the multiversal embodiment of death.

Hell, she's meant to claim Lucifer too, and he's established to be superior in every way.

 

[Soratoum]

Yeah, she should.

I also think The Phantom Stranger should be ranked as "Unknown. Likely 1-A" as well, since he was "threatening to destroy all of Creation" when he was fighting Spectre, but was interrupted by the Presence, the literal God of DC. I would post this on Phantom Stranger's page, but it doesn't allow me make a discussion for some reason.

 

[Soratoum]

Actually, I think, Death would claim Lucifer as well. I can't remember in which comic, but she said, when the time comes, she'll claim Lucifer as well.

 

[KingPin0422]

No, no, no. The Endless all fear Lucifer, primarily because he created them on accident and can just as easily destroy them.

As I said before, Death is only able to "claim" people like Lucifer because it's in her nature.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Death can't claim lucifer, but does scale to destiny

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Sandman31 to comment here.

 

[Soratoum]

Will do.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[Eganergo]

I don't really read vertigo, but I'm curious. Her whole claiming things is very vague to me. Can someone explain?

I mean Will she claim those 1A as it is, or will she claim those 1A after their defeat to someone thus making them weaker?

 

[Sandman31]

Yeah, she should.
I also think The Phantom Stranger should be ranked as "Unknown. Likely 1-A" as well, since he was "threatening to destroy all of Creation" when he was fighting Spectre, but was interrupted by the Presence, the literal God of DC. I would post this on Phantom Stranger's page, but it doesn't allow me make a discussion for some reason.

Destroying all of Creation is a High 1-B feat at best plus if I remember correctly, the reason why creation could be destroyed was because PS and Spectre have special roles so its not because of pure power.

 

[Soratoum]

Yeah, she should.
I also think The Phantom Stranger should be ranked as "Unknown. Likely 1-A" as well, since he was "threatening to destroy all of Creation" when he was fighting Spectre, but was interrupted by the Presence, the literal God of DC. I would post this on Phantom Stranger's page, but it doesn't allow me make a discussion for some reason.

Destroying all of Creation is a High 1-B feat at best plus if I remember correctly, the reason why creation could be destroyed was because PS and Spectre have special roles so its not because of pure power.

Technically, their clash alerted the Presence, who was in the Void at the time, so that tells us how powerful the clash was. Besides, the Spectre and Phantom Stranger have been desribed as having "cosmic roles, each one balancing the other", so they're equal, by statements.

 

[Sandman31]

No, not really, the Presence has a wonky timeline. Unless the the Phantom Stranger ties in directly to the Lucifer solo series then I doubt that the writers of the cares about what happened in Lucifer. The Presence has appeared several times after the event of Lucifer.

Yes, thats what I said, they both have cosmic roles, them fighting upsets that balance. That plus the Phatom Stranger being 1-A would lead to a lot of inconsistency.

 

[Lightbuster30]

If Dream has a,straight up 1-A form then should Death have one by powerscaling?

 

[Ercosore]

It is a bit weird having just two of the endless being 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

I agree that a 1-A Phantom Stranger would be far too inconsistent.

what do you think about scaling Death from Destiny and Dream's highest self?

 

[Soratoum]

Well, didn't the Presence give the title of God to Elaine Belloc, after he was tired of being one, and then he went to vacate in the Void? It happened at the end of original Lucifer run in 2005, and Stranger v. Spectre fight happened later on. Also, Phantom Stranger is also a part of Vertigo comics, and I think he ties in to Lucifer storyline,

Well, I'm not sure about him being so high, so that's why I said "Unknown. At least ..." He can be lower.

 

[Soratoum]

Stranger can be "Unknown. At least 2-A, possibly far higher."

 

[Soratoum]

Okay, I think I've found something that would put Death on 1-A tier.

Lucifer states that he is just postponing the inevitable while he's talking about Death, and he talks about death as HER, so we can assume he's talking about the Endless one. Here's the sca

Death never actually agreed to the fact that Lucifer has no sway over her. She just said it isn't his time, and he literally just confirmed that. So Death, is indeed above Lucifer, and by that extension 1-A.

P.S. This is also interesting because she just broke the Fourth Wall. I think she should have "4th Wall Awareness" in her list of abilities.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I remember correctly, Dream of the Endless stated outright that Lucifer is likely the second most powerful being after The Presence during the original Sandman series.

 

[Soratoum]

That's because Dream is afraid of Lucifer, and overestimates his power. Lucifer literally said he can't avoid Death.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, maybe, but I read it as a statement from Neil Gaiman.

 

[Soratoum]

When he wrote Sandman, he didn't want any of the Endless to be above Lucifer, iirc. But that has changed because different writers have been writing their stories.

 

[Soratoum]

Also, will you please add the "Fourth Wall Awareness"?

 

[Antvasima]

That may be true.

 

[KingPin0422]

I just read that scan, and I'm pretty sure that the "postponing the inevitable" bit is referring to the Silk Man cheating death via hopping out of creations as they die, and then entering new ones as they are born.

 

[Sandman31]

I think Death could possibly be 1-A but not by being above Lucifer

But yeah, the Endless are more fundamental to existence than Lucifer maybe even the Presence

 

[Soratoum]

So, will she get an upgrade?

 

[NostalgiaTrip]

She's been stated to claim Destiny at the very end of Creation, meaning she's more powerful than Destiny. Since Destiny is 1-A, shouldn't Death be 1-A as well?

This whole thing about Death claiming Destiny should not be taken as a feat of physical power. No. Death is something that all things must face but from Death also comes life, hence why she is seen when all living things are born. Kind of like a coin, two sides to the same thing.

I don't think, though, that she would fight Destiny. I've always seen it as that Destiny would take her hand and just walk with her to the end. She's a very complex existence. It's been stated that when the universe ends that she would turn of the lights and lock the door. It didn't say anything about her dying. Just that she would lock up the universe after everything died.

 

[Demnok]

When he wrote Sandman, he didn't want any of the Endless to be above Lucifer, iirc. But that has changed because different writers have been writing their stories.

Yes, different writers had the Endless made a cameo in some story arcs (like when Luthor meets Death), but only with the consent of Gaiman and he himself wrote the dialogs of the Endless.

As for the topic, I wouldn't scale Death to Destiny nor Lucifer since her claiming them is not an issue of raw power but more about their roles in the multiverse. As lucifer says, no one can truly escape from Death, not even him. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Death will in fact kill him in a battle, it means that Lucifer will eventually die and, therefore, be claimed by Death.