Snyderman Speed revision

[Rex_Eckles]

It's coming from Cyborg. Having nanosecond reactions/preceptions is 3x ftl.

Was that statement in the theatrical or Snyder cut of Justice League?

 

[Ozcantabak]

Was that statement in the theatrical or Snyder cut of Justice League?

Both has one, the one we're using is from the Snyder Cut.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Both has one, the one we're using is from the Snyder Cut.

It's not the "dig up grave in nanosecond" one is it?

 

[Ozcantabak]

It's not the "dig up grave in nanosecond" one is it?

Nah thats the one.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Nah thats the one.

I doubt that's reliable.

 

[Ozcantabak]

I doubt that's reliable.

Why not ? Cyborg agrees with Barry and he like never ever jokes or lies about a thing in the movie.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Why not ? Cyborg agrees with Barry and he like never ever jokes or lies about a thing in the movie.

I guess, he is a party pooper.

 

[Ozcantabak]

I guess, he is a party pooper.

Well tbf his Mother died and he was turned into a robot by his Dad, but he does warm up near the end of the movie.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Well tbf his Mother died and he was turned into a robot by his Dad, but he does warm up near the end of the movie.

Don't count on it, Batman.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The wiki currently accepts Rocks WoG, he was the executive producer of Black Adam and this guy definitly had controll over the universe at that time, he litterally removed Black Adam from Shazam 2. Also this isn't Marvel bro, but even then Chris Hemsworth was also the executive producer of Thor LaT and his WoG is also accepted for that film.

Pretty sure he didn't removed Black Adam, he just called people who had the authority to remove and they happened to agree and make it happen not the same. And the 4 statements that are used as source, 3 of them state only lightspeed not FTL and the last one states in the movie he flies faster than the speed of light in a scene but that is really not consistent with any of the scenes of the movie.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Pretty sure he didn't removed Black Adam, he just called people who had the authority to remove and they happened to agree and make it happen not the same. And the 4 statements that are used as source, 3 of them state only lightspeed not FTL and the last one states in the movie he flies faster than the speed of light in a scene but that is really not consistent with any of the scenes of the movie.

Ok but if he can just make a phone call and convince them to agree with him that sitll shows he had controll. Yeah but those 3 LS statements aren't a cap, he isn't saying "they can fly at the SoL at their peak", which shows as he says yeah Black Adam can fly at ftl. Come on bro this is not a rebuttal, in any of the flight scenes he could have went ftl,

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Ok but if he can just make a phone call and convince them to agree with him that sitll shows he had controll. Yeah but those 3 LS statements aren't a cap, he isn't saying "they can fly at the SoL at their peak", which shows as he says yeah Black Adam can fly at ftl. Come on bro this is not a rebuttal, in any of the flight scenes he could have went ftl,

That just means Warner was sure The Rock was the solution to their problems until his failure, there is a reason why The Rock wanted to make an whole universe and a movie fighting Superman and Warner just rejected after that failure, actually Warner's actions suggest they were already going to reboot everything anyways.
So are you taking Adam flying alongside the jets as FTL?

 

[Ozcantabak]

That just means Warner was sure The Rock was the solution to their problems until his failure, there is a reason why The Rock wanted to make an whole universe and a movie fighting Superman and Warner just rejected after that failure, actually Warner's actions suggest they were already going to reboot everything anyways.
So are you taking Adam flying alongside the jets as FTL?

Great, The Rock was still not just an actor, he's a producer and was the one making all the announcements and kept posing as the creative head behind the project, he was actively involved in the creative process and claimed so many times. Do you think we should downgrade Kratos to supersonic becuase he doesn't look like he has infinite speed

 

[Hellformer]

Great, The Rock was still not just an actor, he's a producer and was the one making all the announcements and kept posing as the creative head behind the project, he was actively involved in the creative process and claimed so many times. Do you think we should downgrade Kratos to supersonic becuase he doesn't look like he has infinite speed

Kratos is slower than irl humans if we use that kind of logic

 

[Legion350]

It's coming from Cyborg. Having nanosecond reactions/preceptions is 3x ftl.

That statement implies Cyborg has ftl reactions/preceptions which i don't think scales to other cast cause none of them blitz him like Superman does, but even if other people scales to it it wouldn't contridict anything said in the op.

I disagree with this, the wiki accepts Rock's other WoG without the "likely/possibly" part and them upscaling rela+ characters adds even more bonus to this.

Rock repedeatly says Supes is the number 1 in the verse, he always mentions how Superman would hold back and BA would weaken him with his magic and even then it'd be a though fight for them.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, because Black Adam's speed Rel+ is a "Likely rating" which stems at least in part from a WoG statement. Also, I would like a source for Black Adam being significantly below Superman in speed. If you are talking about this quote from the imgur link, there is no mention of a speed difference, and the Rock puts them both at the Speed of Light. If you're talking about something different, I'd like to see a source.

Is the 3.3x FTL from Cyborg's nanosecond statement or Black Adam?

So, my issue here with the nanosecond statements is that they reach FTL. This means most of the cast would be FTL as well. Also the first statement is from Man of Steel, meaning Superman & Flash would need to be MFTL+ for the calc's logic to work.

That being said, I think FTL Superman could work as a possibly/likely rating using upscaling from Relativistic+ feats, and Black Adam statements. The first three statements explicitly mention they can move at the speed of light, and then the last one says faster than light, so it works.

Though, I don't the statements imply Superman scales over Black Adam, especially since the Rock implies them moving at comparable speed.

Also, when I say most of the cast would be FTL, I'm not talking about scaling to Cyborg's perceptions. If we assume both statements are both reliable and literal [for Cyborg & Superman] then they'd require FTL movement. If we assuming Cyborg is not joking here, then that's FTL, because he'd be digging up a grave in a nanosecond. It's a similar situation for MOS Superman, if we take it at face value as being a speed without any hyperbole, it's also FTL. 5 nanoseconds is Relativistic+, but that's purely for perceptions. He is also doing a "movement" aka dodging Zod's limo at him, and he does this within 5 nanoseconds that's low end FTL.

Which as per your original argument makes the entire League FTL. And while that FTL value to find Superman & Flash's speed is calc stacking, this still means Superman and Flash are hundreds of times the speed of light in that scene (based on the perceptions statement), which contradicts a lot.

 

[Ozcantabak]

I'm not sure what you are referring to, because Black Adam's speed Rel+ is a "Likely rating" which stems at least in part from a WoG statement. Also, I would like a source for Black Adam being significantly below Superman in speed. If you are talking about this quote from the imgur link, there is no mention of a speed difference, and the Rock puts them both at the Speed of Light. If you're talking about something different, I'd like to see a source.

I was refering to him being > WW and ect. who is currently rela+ via scaling to her own calc. I wouldn't say he is like far above him, but most of the statements imply Supes is overall more powerfull, here are few of the statements.

Also, when I say most of the cast would be FTL, I'm not talking about scaling to Cyborg's perceptions. If we assume both statements are both reliable and literal [for Cyborg & Superman] then they'd require FTL movement. If we assuming Cyborg is not joking here, then that's FTL, because he'd be digging up a grave in a nanosecond. It's a similar situation for MOS Superman, if we take it at face value as being a speed without any hyperbole, it's also FTL. 5 nanoseconds is Relativistic+, but that's purely for perceptions. He is also doing a "movement" aka dodging Zod's limo at him, and he does this within 5 nanoseconds that's low end FTL.

Which as per your original argument makes the entire League FTL. And while that FTL value to find Superman & Flash's speed is calc stacking, this still means Superman and Flash are hundreds of times the speed of light in that scene (based on the perceptions statement), which contradicts a lot.

I mean if do calc stacking even right now using Wonder Womans 60% of SoL calc they'd still be mftl+, and nope i don't belive league being ftl would contridict the op because it's basically arguing Flash is slowing down time around him to make other characters slow and even then Supes is able to keep up with him.

This is completely my opinion and doesn't involve the op so please treat it as something differnt for now, but i belive Flash can just go FTL without time travelling. The main reason i belive this is, well, becuase he goes FTL without reversing time. To elaborate, we all know during Superman's reserection Flash reverses time, which means he went ftl there. After this scene when the JL is talking about their plan to take down Steppenwolf and Mother Boxes Flash is explicit stated to have to "run faster than he ever attempted", which means he went FTL when circuling around the battlefield to generate energy.

 

[Legion350]

I was refering to him being > WW and ect. who is currently rela+ via scaling to her own calc. I wouldn't say he is like far above him, but most of the statements imply Supes is overall more powerfull, here are few of the statements.

I mean if do calc stacking even right now using Wonder Womans 60% of SoL calc they'd still be mftl+, and nope i don't belive league being ftl would contridict the op because it's basically arguing Flash is slowing down time around him to make other characters slow and even then Supes is able to keep up with him.

This is completely my opinion and doesn't involve the op so please treat it as something differnt for now, but i belive Flash can just go FTL without time travelling. The main reason i belive this is, well, becuase he goes FTL without reversing time. To elaborate, we all know during Superman's reserection Flash reverses time, which means he went ftl there. After this scene when the JL is talking about their plan to take down Steppenwolf and Mother Boxes Flash is explicit stated to have to "run faster than he ever attempted", which means he went FTL when circuling around the battlefield to generate energy.

That's a different case though from what is normally considered calc stacking. Pointing out the Justice League would be FTL in either nanosecond feat if we took them as valid is unrelated to calculating Superman's speed while fighting the Flash. You can use statements about perception if they are as non-hyperbolic, but you can't calculate the speed from that movement, and use it calculate another unrelated action.

It would be calc stacking to use Wonder Woman moving at Rel+ to block the heat vision as the basis for a perception blitz. It would also be calc stacking if I calculated the speed Cyborg would need to be moving to do the graveyard dig in a nanosecond [or the speed Superman dodged the car in the other scan] as a basis for calculating his perception blitz compared to the Justice League.

Actually, let me do a quick follow up to edit my response, because I looked at the calculation again. While the Flash is fighting Superman his lightning is still visibly moving. So, there's too many steps of assumption. One you're assuming the Justice League can fight at Lightning Speed by using statements from MOS Zod and Superman. But to use this to scale Superman requires another assumption, that they are moving at that lightning speed in the very frame while Superman statues them. This is an issue because we don't have a clear shot of the JL trying to hit him as the Flash starts at super speed. In fact, we see the JL trying to push Superman back right before he fights the Flash. It's not as though they are all mid swing when he statues them. So the premise of the calc itself is faulty.

 

[YuseiDragon1]

give me one vote towards disagree fra

 

[Ozcantabak]

That's a different case though from what is normally considered calc stacking. Pointing out the Justice League would be FTL in either nanosecond feat if we took them as valid is unrelated to calculating Superman's speed while fighting the Flash. You can use statements about perception if they are as non-hyperbolic, but you can't calculate the speed from that movement, and use it calculate another unrelated action.

It would be calc stacking to use Wonder Woman moving at Rel+ to block the heat vision as the basis for a perception blitz. It would also be calc stacking if I calculated the speed Cyborg would need to be moving to do the graveyard dig in a nanosecond [or the speed Superman dodged the car in the other scan] as a basis for calculating his perception blitz compared to the Justice League.

Actually, let me do a quick follow up to edit my response, because I looked at the calculation again. While the Flash is fighting Superman his lightning is still visibly moving. So, there's too many steps of assumption. One you're assuming the Justice League can fight at Lightning Speed by using statements from MOS Zod and Superman. But to use this to scale Superman requires another assumption, that they are moving at that lightning speed in the very frame while Superman statues them. This is an issue because we don't have a clear shot of the JL trying to hit him as the Flash starts at super speed. In fact, we see the JL trying to push Superman back right before he fights the Flash. It's not as though they are all mid swing when he statues them. So the premise of the calc itself is faulty.

You're right about the calc stacking stuff.

But Flash's lightning also moves with him visibally when he is conanicly going "far beyond the speed of light" so i don't think thats meant to repesent a litterall mhs lightning. The thing is there are conanical statements of; Doomsday (whom WW downscales) being greater than Zod as accepted by the wiki, and WW's powers being comparable to BvS Supes who is stated as being above his MoS self. So JL being lightning timers via scaling to only statements from Supes and Zod shouldn't be an assumption. Yeah he statued them when they tried to push him, but we see Cyborg and Aquaman visibally tweak their body while trying to push him before they get statued, and to add they still don't show reactions to Supes turning his head, not even moving thier eyeballs or acting suprised.

 

[Legion350]

You're right about the calc stacking stuff.

But Flash's lightning also moves with him visibally when he is conanicly going "far beyond the speed of light" so i don't think thats meant to repesent a litterall mhs lightning. The thing is there are conanical statements of; Doomsday (whom WW downscales) being greater than Zod as accepted by the wiki, and WW's powers being comparable to BvS Supes who is stated as being above his MoS self. So JL being lightning timers via scaling to only statements from Supes and Zod shouldn't be an assumption. Yeah he statued them when they tried to push him, but we see Cyborg and Aquaman visibally tweak their body while trying to push him before they get statued, and to add they still don't show reactions to Supes turning his head, not even moving thier eyeballs or acting suprised.

Won’t be able to respond for a bit, fair point about the Flash lightning. I think Superman could upscale to FTL. My problem though and the reason I brought up lightning is that the calc's FTL+ value comes from Lightning moving at snail speed. I don’t think the calc makes sense.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I say just redo the calc, but just use the distance Clark traveled and the timeframe of a nanosecond or something.

 

[Ozcantabak]

I say just redo the calc, but just use the distance Clark traveled and the timeframe of a nanosecond or something.

Per this Light travels 0.3 meters in 1 nanosecond, if we assume Supes jumped 3.168 meters in 1 nanosecond 3.168/0.3=10.56c, but can you explain why should we use this, like why are we assuming the timeframe as 1 nanosecond ?

Won’t be able to respond for a bit, fair point about the Flash lightning. I think Superman could upscale to FTL. My problem though and the reason I brought up lightning is that the calc's FTL+ value comes from Lightning moving at snail speed. I don’t think the calc makes sense.

No problem, i can wait then.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Per this Light travels 0.3 meters in 1 nanosecond, if we assume Supes jumped 3.168 meters in 1 nanosecond 3.168/0.3=10.56c, but can you explain why should we use this, like why are we assuming the timeframe as 1 nanosecond ?

I thought we just established that both versions of Justice League have nanosecond statements for Cyborg?

 

[Ozcantabak]

I thought we just established that both versions of Justice League have nanosecond statements for Cyborg?

Yeah he does, but why are we calcing it this way, is the reasoning something like Cyborg can react to a nanosecond but can't react to Superman jumping ?

 

[Legion350]

Will be popping in infrequently bc of an upcoming semester, but I realized have a little bit time over the next few days with where I’ll be semi-active.

Anyways, moving 3.168 m in a nanosecond {1e-9} which is 3,168,000,000 m/s or 10.567311c. This works if VSBW accepts the nanosecond statement as valid. I’ve already said that I’m not opposed to FTL Superman inherently, my biggest issue was the original calc being used for FTL+. I assume the basis is that Cyborg can process activity/react in within the nanosecond, but could not react/perceive Superman's movements.

You're right about the calc stacking stuff.

But Flash's lightning also moves with him visibally when he is conanicly going "far beyond the speed of light" so i don't think thats meant to repesent a litterall mhs lightning. The thing is there are conanical statements of; Doomsday (whom WW downscales) being greater than Zod as accepted by the wiki, and WW's powers being comparable to BvS Supes who is stated as being above his MoS self. So JL being lightning timers via scaling to only statements from Supes and Zod shouldn't be an assumption. Yeah he statued them when they tried to push him, but we see Cyborg and Aquaman visibally tweak their body while trying to push him before they get statued, and to add they still don't show reactions to Supes turning his head, not even moving thier eyeballs or acting suprised.

Even if Superman was MFTL+, the calculation doesn’t make sense. This is not because of the value, but rather that the calc does not justify using snail speed for lightning. As you’ve said the speed Flash's lightning moves at goes up to Faster than Light. But you’ve also said the JL shouldn’t only be lightning timers via scaling. So there is no basis for any rating from the calc.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I assume the basis is that Cyborg can process activity/react in within the nanosecond, but could not react/perceive Superman's movements.

Yes.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Will be popping in infrequently bc of an upcoming semester, but I realized have a little bit time over the next few days with where I’ll be semi-active.

Alright.

Anyways, moving 3.168 m in a nanosecond {1e-9} which is 3,168,000,000 m/s or 10.567311c. This works if VSBW accepts the nanosecond statement as valid. I’ve already said that I’m not opposed to FTL Superman inherently, my biggest issue was the original calc being used for FTL+. I assume the basis is that Cyborg can process activity/react in within the nanosecond, but could not react/perceive Superman's movements.

Yes.

I guess we can add this as an altarnate proposal. I'll edit the calc.

Even if Superman was MFTL+, the calculation doesn’t make sense. This is not because of the value, but rather that the calc does not justify using snail speed for lightning. As you’ve said the speed Flash's lightning moves at goes up to Faster than Light. But you’ve also said the JL shouldn’t only be lightning timers via scaling. So there is no basis for any rating from the calc.

Yeah i've said that, but i can't just use their relativistic feats for the calc because all of them are calced from onscreen feats. The lightning statements, are stated and as for as i know if someones speed is a stated value not coming from calc

 

[Legion350]

Alright.


I guess we can add this as an altarnate proposal. I'll edit the calc.

Yeah i've said that, but i can't just use their relativistic feats for the calc because all of them are calced from onscreen feats. The lightning statements, are stated and as for as i know if someones speed is a stated value not coming from calc

Yeah that's obvious. However, the issue is that of the statements here, most of seem metaphorical. The first one mentions accelerating faster than the "speed of sound" & "lightning reflexes", the second mentions "lightning speed", the third mentions "lightning quick reflexes", and the final image mentions rebar thrown at "lightning speed". Several of these are using lightning as a shorthand for fast. Not to mention, these are from what assume are a novelization & several guides. It would be one thing if this was from the same movie, but its barely even supporting evidence. And while they are certainly faster than lightning based on plenty of feats, but for the calc to work, you would need something blatant and unambiguous.

Because most of the defense has been that is low ball based on the many other calcs, and that's true, but it's not a valid one, because none of them can be used to find Superman's speed anyways. This looks like Hiding Calculations. From the site:

"Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used. This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat."

 

[Ozcantabak]

Yeah that's obvious. However, the issue is that of the statements here, most of seem metaphorical. The first one mentions accelerating faster than the "speed of sound" & "lightning reflexes", the second mentions "lightning speed", the third mentions "lightning quick reflexes", and the final image mentions rebar thrown at "lightning speed". Several of these are using lightning as a shorthand for fast. Not to mention, these are from what assume are a novelization & several guides. It would be one thing if this was from the same movie, but its barely even supporting evidence. And while they are certainly faster than lightning based on plenty of feats, but for the calc to work, you would need something blatant and unambiguous.

Because most of the defense has been that is low ball based on the many other calcs, and that's true, but it's not a valid one, because none of them can be used to find Superman's speed anyways. This looks like Hiding Calculations. From the site:

You make some valid points, however this in no way should be considered a calc hiding, i mean we mention we use the statements instead of the calcs to give them a speed value becuase otherwise it'd be calc stacking:

Since we have already found an accepted speed can be legally calc stacked according to site rules, we can begin to find out how fast superman is moving in flash time in relation to the JL

But yeah as you Jason and Rex Eckles mentioned, its probably better to use the nanosecond statement instead of the lightning ones, i'll cross them out from the calc.

 

[Ozcantabak]

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[Ozcantabak]

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[Ozcantabak]

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[Rex_Eckles]

The calc needs to be evaluated before anything else can happen.

 

[Ozcantabak]

The calc needs to be evaluated before anything else can happen.

The thread has supporting things for the calc, thats why i'm bumping it.

 

[Ozcantabak]

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[Saqphire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the argument basically "Flash is slowing down space-time and as such, Flash's time manip has nothing to do with Superman's speed because both work differently" ?

If yes, I might actually agree with this proposal. It also makes zero sense for Flash to assert that he can do the grave digging in a nanosecond (meaning he would have FTL perception anyway) yet also trying to say that Flash can't do stuff faster than light without time-travelling. Either one of these assertions are false, or the Time Sphere thing is a speed-force exclusive thing for travel speed only.

Dwayne's statements also really help the position here, I guess the only disagreements I have would be using the lightning statements and the "nanoseconds to spare" one; both of them can just be semantically dismissed as hyperbole but that doesn't really hurt the overall premise so it doesnt matter much

 

[Ozcantabak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the argument basically "Flash is slowing down space-time and as such, Flash's time manip has nothing to do with Superman's speed because both work differently" ?

If yes, I might actually agree with this proposal. It also makes zero sense for Flash to assert that he can do the grave digging in a nanosecond (meaning he would have FTL perception anyway) yet also trying to say that Flash can't do stuff faster than light without time-travelling. Either one of these assertions are false, or the Time Sphere thing is a speed-force exclusive thing for travel speed only.

Dwayne's statements also really help the position here, I guess the only disagreements I have would be using the lightning statements and the "nanoseconds to spare" one; both of them can just be semantically dismissed as hyperbole but that doesn't really hurt the overall premise so it doesnt matter much

Yeah thats basically it. and i think he can go ftl without time-travelling as i said above.

 

[Ozcantabak]

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[Ozcantabak]

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[Ozcantabak]

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