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All right thanks.
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So, What Is Prep Time?
- Thread starter Moritzva
- Start date
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It seems somewhat weird to standardize a non-standard assumption, but ok.
"When Preparation is given to one or more characters, the following is assumed"
Correction: When Preperation is given, and no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator, the following is assumed.
The SBA makes a point of the thread creator having all freedom in specifying the battle assumption and so should this.
"An individual with prep time can use it to research their opponent and their abilities (through media, magical abilities, or other)"
A problem with this is that the characters for all intents and purposes may as well be in different multiverses. So either the research is actually impossible or you have to somehow fuse their worlds together. Fusing worlds together works somewhat with fictions based on the real earth, but fusing a sci-fi universe and a medival fantasy one gives very subjective and nonsensial results.
A default prep time should IMO be without prior knowledge, as research requires case by case assumptions, that can only be given by the thread creator.
"Prep Time can be used to set up machinations and traps on the battlefield, and neither side will know of or see the opponent's setup until the battle starts."
That leads to paradoxes. Imagine one character wants to replace the entire battlefield with a lava pit, while the other wants to replace it with a swimming pool.
How can both set up their stuff?
What is included in traps and machinations also seems somewhat vague, when one considers supernatural powers. Like, are you allowed to make prior modifications to Space, Time, Laws and Concepts?
In my opinion the battlefield should be neutral territory until the fight starts. (also helps with the battlefield not being part of their universes)
"When Preparation is given to one or more characters, the following is assumed"
Correction: When Preperation is given, and no alternative assumptions are specified by the thread creator, the following is assumed.
The SBA makes a point of the thread creator having all freedom in specifying the battle assumption and so should this.
"An individual with prep time can use it to research their opponent and their abilities (through media, magical abilities, or other)"
A problem with this is that the characters for all intents and purposes may as well be in different multiverses. So either the research is actually impossible or you have to somehow fuse their worlds together. Fusing worlds together works somewhat with fictions based on the real earth, but fusing a sci-fi universe and a medival fantasy one gives very subjective and nonsensial results.
A default prep time should IMO be without prior knowledge, as research requires case by case assumptions, that can only be given by the thread creator.
"Prep Time can be used to set up machinations and traps on the battlefield, and neither side will know of or see the opponent's setup until the battle starts."
That leads to paradoxes. Imagine one character wants to replace the entire battlefield with a lava pit, while the other wants to replace it with a swimming pool.
How can both set up their stuff?
What is included in traps and machinations also seems somewhat vague, when one considers supernatural powers. Like, are you allowed to make prior modifications to Space, Time, Laws and Concepts?
In my opinion the battlefield should be neutral territory until the fight starts. (also helps with the battlefield not being part of their universes)
Wokistan
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A problem with this is that the characters for all intents and purposes may as well be in different multiverses. So either the research is actually impossible or you have to somehow fuse their worlds together. Fusing worlds together works somewhat with fictions based on the real earth, but fusing a sci-fi universe and a medival fantasy one gives very subjective and nonsensial results.
A default prep time should IMO be without prior knowledge, as research requires case by case assumptions, that can only be given by the thread creator.
There are some characters who have powers that can bridge such a gap. If it's possible for them to research people in different universes or multiverses or whatever I don't see the problem.
A default prep time should IMO be without prior knowledge, as research requires case by case assumptions, that can only be given by the thread creator.
There are some characters who have powers that can bridge such a gap. If it's possible for them to research people in different universes or multiverses or whatever I don't see the problem.
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- Thread starter
- #44
Standarizing a non-standardized thing is weird, I agree, but as an avid thread creator and contributor... Goddamn, there's a lot of confusion. Most of the reccomendations I made above are pretty up for debate, because all they need to serve as is a basis for when OPs are too lazy to properly specify things. Because let's be honest, they usually are.
Your first point about changing the wording of that phrase seems fine.
I suppose removing prior knowledge and research seems fine, though it brings the question of people who can magically scry or research, and using that to learn about the opponent. That is a tremendously large part of prep time, knowing your opponent.
Naturally, the biggest problem with "Nobody can touch the battlefield" is that it becomes a really wonky setting of trying to bypass those rules, such as creating planes to fly in and drop your traps and bombs once the battle starts, or other excessive measures. So while being able to touch the battlefield causes problems, such as the aforementioned situation, we must consider that not being able to touch it becomes a logistical mess and removes a lot of the primary uses of prep time in fiction.
(I would say, if two characters are actually types to turn the floor into lava/water, the OP should probably change up SBA a bit for that. Seems unlikely.)
As for changing concepts and similar, I would say that's fine, but they will not apply or interfere with the opponent until the battle starts.
Your first point about changing the wording of that phrase seems fine.
I suppose removing prior knowledge and research seems fine, though it brings the question of people who can magically scry or research, and using that to learn about the opponent. That is a tremendously large part of prep time, knowing your opponent.
Naturally, the biggest problem with "Nobody can touch the battlefield" is that it becomes a really wonky setting of trying to bypass those rules, such as creating planes to fly in and drop your traps and bombs once the battle starts, or other excessive measures. So while being able to touch the battlefield causes problems, such as the aforementioned situation, we must consider that not being able to touch it becomes a logistical mess and removes a lot of the primary uses of prep time in fiction.
(I would say, if two characters are actually types to turn the floor into lava/water, the OP should probably change up SBA a bit for that. Seems unlikely.)
As for changing concepts and similar, I would say that's fine, but they will not apply or interfere with the opponent until the battle starts.
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- Thread starter
- #45
You know, the main points of contention I think we should decide-
- Are the two fighters starting in different universes while preparing? Can they move to the enemy multiverse if they have the right abilities?
- Can they access the battlefield's multiverse before the battle starts?
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A problem with any way of magical scrying something is the same as with sabotaging the opponent.
E.g. if you magically spy on Thalosheim then Vandalieu will know due to the Abyss skill and retaliate with a mind attack. So, what now?
Is Vandalieu not allowed to protect his secrets or does the battle start that instant?
If you do research by trying to sneak in somewhere other characters from the verse might interfere. What then?
Heck, if any sufficiently supernatural creature takes a step into Owari no Chronicle they instantly die. So do Owari no Chronicle characters win battles, due to their opponents dying while trying to research them?
Lots of problems. So I'm still in favor of the character preparing in their respective fiction without being able to interact.
Btw. another consideration to be made is whether other characters are allowed to help with preperation.
E.g. if you magically spy on Thalosheim then Vandalieu will know due to the Abyss skill and retaliate with a mind attack. So, what now?
Is Vandalieu not allowed to protect his secrets or does the battle start that instant?
If you do research by trying to sneak in somewhere other characters from the verse might interfere. What then?
Heck, if any sufficiently supernatural creature takes a step into Owari no Chronicle they instantly die. So do Owari no Chronicle characters win battles, due to their opponents dying while trying to research them?
Lots of problems. So I'm still in favor of the character preparing in their respective fiction without being able to interact.
Btw. another consideration to be made is whether other characters are allowed to help with preperation.
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- Thread starter
- #47
I would definitely say 'no' to outside help by SBA. Like, absolutely no doubt in my mind about that.
...I suppose, restricting prior knowledge by SBA, and gaining it, should be fine.
So, how about accessing the battlefield, then?
...I suppose, restricting prior knowledge by SBA, and gaining it, should be fine.
So, how about accessing the battlefield, then?
- 8,927
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- Thread starter
- #49
It does, which is the main issue we have. A lot of these SBA conditions are pretty much situations where, no matter what, it's not perfect. Our goals should be focused on making them as good as possible.Wokistan said:
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So would buying weapons or materials from other characters also not be allowed during prep?
Conflicting battlefield prep will be more common than one might think, in my opinion. Not as much in low tiers, but in higher tiers where characters can do giant constructs it will probably be more of an issue.
Conflicting battlefield prep will be more common than one might think, in my opinion. Not as much in low tiers, but in higher tiers where characters can do giant constructs it will probably be more of an issue.
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- Thread starter
- #52
Nothing that they don't normally have access to should be allowed unless said so by the OP.
Could you name scenarios that have come up in your experience? I would say that limiting prep time affecting the battlefield, and prior knowledge, doesn't leave a lot to do during prep time.
Could you name scenarios that have come up in your experience? I would say that limiting prep time affecting the battlefield, and prior knowledge, doesn't leave a lot to do during prep time.
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I mean regarding prior knowledge I think I outlined above why it is difficult, since research doesn't go well.
Now I haven't encountered much problems with prep time affecting the battlefield, but then again I think I never was in a thread where that was allowed.
This is just my opinion, but if a character has the ability to do so I would assume that they will turn the battlefield into a fortress.
For concrete examples... well Kumoko would overwrite the space of the battlefield with her power nulling pocket dimension and then cover everything in her spider thread, which would not go well with many other stuff. Vandalieu would turn every single object on the battlefield into a golem and build a fortress of some kind. One can see how battlefield prep time with people like them could be akward.
What I expect characters to do with default prep time (when it comes to prep time specifying what you want is better) is gather optional equipement for the most part. Aside from that they could do things like activate non-passive abilities in advance (casting buffs, turning intangible, activating their precog ability, turning on their instant death aura etc.) or produce greater amounts of what they could usually bring (lots of potions, golems, undead etc.)
Some characters could even be argued to get stuff they never really had, when the developement ability for them is given. To give some examples:
Kakine Teitoku has indicated to be able to develope his ability further to enable his dark matter beings to develope individual esper abilities. If you give him sufficient prep time one could consider taking that as argument.
Index has displayed great knowledge on many magic spells she doesn't use, but should be able to reproduce them if given enough time.
Rick should be able to engineer countless robots that can use about everything anyone in his verse ever used.
Those things seem like decent uses for prep-time.
Now I haven't encountered much problems with prep time affecting the battlefield, but then again I think I never was in a thread where that was allowed.
This is just my opinion, but if a character has the ability to do so I would assume that they will turn the battlefield into a fortress.
For concrete examples... well Kumoko would overwrite the space of the battlefield with her power nulling pocket dimension and then cover everything in her spider thread, which would not go well with many other stuff. Vandalieu would turn every single object on the battlefield into a golem and build a fortress of some kind. One can see how battlefield prep time with people like them could be akward.
What I expect characters to do with default prep time (when it comes to prep time specifying what you want is better) is gather optional equipement for the most part. Aside from that they could do things like activate non-passive abilities in advance (casting buffs, turning intangible, activating their precog ability, turning on their instant death aura etc.) or produce greater amounts of what they could usually bring (lots of potions, golems, undead etc.)
Some characters could even be argued to get stuff they never really had, when the developement ability for them is given. To give some examples:
Kakine Teitoku has indicated to be able to develope his ability further to enable his dark matter beings to develope individual esper abilities. If you give him sufficient prep time one could consider taking that as argument.
Index has displayed great knowledge on many magic spells she doesn't use, but should be able to reproduce them if given enough time.
Rick should be able to engineer countless robots that can use about everything anyone in his verse ever used.
Those things seem like decent uses for prep-time.
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- Thread starter
- #54
Would Rick be allowed to bring his robots onto the battlefield with him? Would that be counting as tampering with the battlefield? Where is the line drawn?
That should be what we should set out to define.
That should be what we should set out to define.
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I suggested this in another thread where he was given it, but Byakura with prep could probably tier jump and gain access to almost every Sky Flame ability in the verse. (Along with other nonsensical stuff he learns from his alternate selves)
The only reason he ever lost is because of some kind of fate manipulation/acausality relating to time travel paradoxes, the vongola rings, and box weapons.
The only reason he ever lost is because of some kind of fate manipulation/acausality relating to time travel paradoxes, the vongola rings, and box weapons.
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He can bring his robots with him. They get teleported to his starting position at the start of the battle together with himself. The same for every other piece of equipment a character may bring.Moritzva said:
That's how we usually handle characters with robot or mecha standard equipment, isn't it?
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- Thread starter
- #57
But then where's the line? Can you bring traps with you? To what extent can you bring things onto the battlefield alongside you?
I am considering writing something along the lines of,
"If characters, in-character, are likely to use their preparation time in ways that will directly interfere with the enemy and their preparations before the battle starts, the thread creator should specify and alter battling conditions accordingly for it to be added."
It isn't perfect, but it's a good catch-all warning for when situations arise.
I am considering writing something along the lines of,
"If characters, in-character, are likely to use their preparation time in ways that will directly interfere with the enemy and their preparations before the battle starts, the thread creator should specify and alter battling conditions accordingly for it to be added."
It isn't perfect, but it's a good catch-all warning for when situations arise.
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Just to clarify: Would these specifications be written in the Preparation page?
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Bump?
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