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Some important revisions

Antvasima

Antvasima

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I just wanted to inform the staff of our wiki that after consultation from DarkLK and DontTalk, I have slightly revised the definition of the 1-A/Outerverse level tier:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Tiering_System&diff=1719818&oldid=1714366

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1038499

In addition, I have been told that this could affect the ratings of certain characters, such as the Downstreamers and the Warhammer 40000 chaos gods.

DarkLK, who is our by far most knowledgeable expert regarding the tiering system, also disagrees with our current standard of automatically giving 1-A characters High Godly Regenerationn, and I am not sure how he feels about the True Godly Regenerationn concept, ao we might need to perform a some form of revision there.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1047570

Input would be appreciated.

NOTE: STAFF ONLY
 
I agree with LK's stance on automatically handing out Regenerationn as well, considering multiple fictions on the tier don't demonstrate it. The new outerverse definition looks good however.

@Matt I think the new definition just got rid of the colorful language.

"In the context of the connection with physics and size/dimensions. This is a natural consequence, not a criterion. Everything is relative. At some metaphysical metaphorical level, there can be anything that is supposedly understandable and describeble. Some loud statements like: "beyond physics," "beyond logic," "beyond concepts," "beyond mathematics," "beyond description" are not a proof of 1-A in itself. This also works in the opposite direction."
 
Apparently being beyond dimensions does not mean that the character in question is automatically beyond science and math, if I understood DontTalk and DarkLK correctly.
 
I also think High-Godly regen shouldn't be handed out by default. As for True Godly, I am absolutely in support for scrapping it entirely. True Godly as a concept makes no sense; if you can regenerate from being deleted from existence and then having that entire reality erased, you can't get any more dead than that. You can't erase something that is already non-existent since it is, by definition, already gone.
 
Antvasima said:
Apparently being beyond dimensions does not mean that the character in question is automatically beyond science and math, if I understood DontTalk and DarkLK correctly.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it does. Mathematics is constrained by numerical values, measures and tangible definitions. You can't mathematically quantify something absolutely beyond all space and time.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
I also think High-Godly regen shouldn't be handed out by default. As for True Godly, I am absolutely in support for scrapping it entirely. True Godly as a concept makes no sense; if you can regenerate from being deleted from existence and then having that entire reality erased, you can't get any more dead than that. You can't erase something that is already non-existent since it is, by definition, already gone.
Click to expand...
There's actually plenty of examples of characters who are either non-existant or who regenerate from non-existence in fiction. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make much sense, it is very much a thing.

And regenerating from a 1-A erasure attack is far more impressive than regenerating from all levels of dimensional existence and nonexistence.
 
I get regening from being non-existent. That in and of itself makes no sense, but that is pretty much as dead as it gets. How can you then erase something that is already non-existent, which is the requirement for True Godly?
 
@Assaltwaffle

Well, I am not at all sure about scrapping True Godly, as fiction and philosophy does recurrently use existence and nonexistence in a binary manner, with the possibility of being conscious in a state of nonexistence as well, if I have understood correctly.

I would prefer to wait and see if DarkLK is willing to clarify this.

@Matthew

Please read DarkLK's responses, and the one that I copied from DontTalk, linked in the first post.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
I get regening from being non-existent. That in and of itself makes no sense, but that is pretty much as dead as it gets. How can you then erase something that is already non-existent, which is the requirement for True Godly?
Click to expand...
No it isn't as dead as it gets.

The White from Shin Megami Tensei are literally non-existent beings, yet they still technically are "alive" and can interact, and they can be erased by the Protagonist's power and their ending involves the further erasing of themselves alongside all of existence.

Yet it is still made clear that they won't be gone forever because SMT deals with a cyclical story.

True-Godly Regen was made to accomodate for something that does occur on many High-End fictions.
 
I read Dark LK's posts. He didn't actually argue much. Just said it was nonsensical to him.

I'm actually arguing why a being that is beyond dimensions is beyond math, you can't just say they aren't because he said that's not the case.
 
For those who don't know what True-Godly Regen:

"True godly is simply regenerating in a state of nothingness beyond conventional existence/nonexistence" - Ven.

True Godly is when a character is erased by a dimensionless 1-A, or erased through a dimensionless void, and comes back.

This level of Regenerationn is by definition above High-Godly Regen, as a 1-A void is outside the binary separation of Existence / Nonexistence, as a 1-A being is Beyond Duality. The duality of existence and nonexistence is one such thing.

This is best demonstrated in Umineko.
 
@Matthew

Please read DontTalk's response as well. I copy-pasted it into one of my posts.
 
I agree with not giving every 1-A character High-Godly regen. After all, they are not regenerating from the destruction of the hyperverse, they are simply outside and thus unnaffected by its destruction.

I do not think True Godly should be scrapped.

Other than that, I'll read through DarkLK's thoughts on the matter a bit more and comment again.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Matt That description makes much more sense than the current one.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree that our description needs work. I suggested it being changed to "Can regenerate from being erased on all levels of existence and nonexistence" in the past.
 
@Ant

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1038499#83

This post? Okay, it definitely has more argument to it.

"And if you define mathematics as something like the study of patterns or the study of necessary conclusions or the mental process of performing inductive and effective conclusion... are things really beyond math then?

I mean fuzzy set theory is an example of how one can outright invent completly new, even non-binary, logic and do math with it."

TBF, I don't think anyone is referring to that when they say "Beyond mathematics". They mean in the way I described, beyond things which can be quantified through measurable numbers, even if on a higher-dimensional scale.

Isn't this why we rate things like Speed and Lifting Strength as Irrelevant on a 1-A level? Because they cease to have any meaning. It's a similar principle.
 
@Matthew

Okay. I am admittedly not the best at evaluating such concepts.
 
Thanks. I hope that DarkLK and DontTalk are willing to help us out here. It is unlikely that this will revision will progress without them.
 
Yes, I'm talking about simplification. Too vague formulations with ambiguous meanings should not be used just because people interpret it differently and misunderstandings arise, strange arguments, meaningless debates.

I even heard that 1-A should be "beyond philosophy" or something like that, which is rather strange and generates a lot of misunderstanding.

Now about Regenerationn and its "godly" levels.

First (low godly), this is a recovery from some intangible form.

Further (mid godly), this is a recovery from reality itself, which does not even require an intangible form. That is, the realm itself contains some backup of the character from which it can be restored until this realm is destroyed.

Further (high godly), even realm is not required. But this only means that the backup belongs to some higher realm, for example, the higher dimension.

And at the very end (true godly) it should be characters who possess the backup that belongs to the beyond dimensional realm. In the case of 1-A, their bodies themselves are beyond dimensional.

But this does not mean that they have such a Regenerationn by default. Just like all intangible creatures do not have a low godly Regenerationn by default. 1-A must be erased at its own level and still come back to get such Regenerationn.
 
Thank you.

So, can somebody come up with a suggestion for better worded definitions for our Regenerationn page based on DarkLK's instructions?
 
@DarkLK

Does our Outerverse page need to be revised as well?
 
Okay. Help with suggestions for how to appropriately adjust the Regenerationn and Outerverse pages would be very appreciated.
 
DarkLK wrote some drafts for a revision of our highest Regenerationn levels:

Mid-Godly: Regenerationn after erasure from existence, but as long as the realm itself you are within exists.

High-Godly: Regenerationn after erasure from existence and destruction of realm you are within, but as long as some higher realm exists.

True Godly: Regenerationn after erasure until some beyond dimensional (realm or some abstract form) exist

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1056002

Take note that he is the person by far most knowledgeable about our system, and that he has a much easier time explaining complicated things in Russian than in English, but I still have to ask you for input, as this is a rather drastic change for High-Godly and True Godly. Would this be acceptable if we improve somewhat on the sentence structures?
 
Well, the wording needs to be improved, and I am not sure how to do so.

In addition, if we get rid of the nonexistence part of the True Godly definition, there would likely be quite a lot of profiles that need to be revised.
 
Well, I meant that it needs to turn easier for our visitors to understand what is intended.
 
Okay, although I still have a bit of a problem understanding exactly what is intended for True Godly.
 
True Godly: Regenerationn from being erased from existence, nonexistence, reality, and destruction that transcends the concepts of dimensions themselves.

I think.
 
Thank you, although I am not quite sure that is what he meant.
 
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