Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Mr. Bambu]

no it isnt



the game self recognize that is a game and even the entities mention that they tracend the game and the player tougth that they are in the game

they literally believe that the argument was dream wich it wasnt it was that the players see minecraft as fiction and no just because the poem has some flowery languaje doesnt mean everything is flowery or subjective that is just absurdly exagerate

This is the thing the author said wasn't meant to be taken seriously, yes. Well spotted.

If you don't want to "rely on the subjective", perhaps it would be in your best interest to find verses with actually solid evidence of Tier 1 stuff.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

If Word of God isn't contradicted by the source material it can be used. It ain't contradicted here.

I honestly agree with this, but people are arguing as if it's a slam dunk argument simply because they don't want kiddy block meme game to be tier 1.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is the thing the author said wasn't meant to be taken seriously, yes. Well spotted.

If you don't want to "rely on the subjective", perhaps it would be in your best interest to find verses with actually solid evidence of Tier 1 stuff

oh nice i want to see where he said that plus He was refering to dream stuff not the player see minecraft as fiction who is literally the entire point of the poem

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"I want to see where he said that but I will believe my interpretation of the thing instead"

Neat. Moving on.

 

[Livinmeme]

and also the guy who said that notch said that was refering to the dreams stuff so...

1. stop taking things out of context
2. we are refering to reality fiction thing

 

[Livinmeme]

"I want to see where he said that but I will believe my interpretation of the thing instead"

Neat. Moving on.

No seriously i want to see that

also big double standard you say it was subjective so i also can believe in that like you are RN but i wont because i hate the subjective argument

also you need to prove that thing is real and not a guy lying givme the link interview or something

 

[Leotamer]

The plain text of the interviews say that is dream as metaphor. Yes, the text uses dreams as a metaphor for mistaken perception of fantasy as reality. He refers to the poem as 'the story'. Because discussing the metatextual implictions is something an author might need to do. Authors do not usually say, "This is a fictional stories with fictional characters that only relates to reality in the abstract sense in that it gives commentary on it." Because usually a 'fictional story is a fictional story' goes unsaid.

 

[Livinmeme]

also someone can give me the link of the interview please

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

also someone can give me the link of the interview please

Ending an endless game: an interview with Julian Gough, author of Minecraft's epic finale

Born in 1966, raised in Galway on the west coast of Ireland, and now resident in Berlin, Julian Gough has been many things: lyricist and singer for cult Irish rock…

boingboing.net

 

[Livinmeme]

Ending an endless game: an interview with Julian Gough, author of Minecraft's epic finale

Born in 1966, raised in Galway on the west coast of Ireland, and now resident in Berlin, Julian Gough has been many things: lyricist and singer for cult Irish rock…

boingboing.net

Finally someone that give the interview instead of using mental gymnastics to refuse to give it thanks man or woman

 

[DragonLord]

Ending an endless game: an interview with Julian Gough, author of Minecraft's epic finale

Born in 1966, raised in Galway on the west coast of Ireland, and now resident in Berlin, Julian Gough has been many things: lyricist and singer for cult Irish rock…

boingboing.net

JG: I gave Markus an idea of what I was going for, once I knew myself, and he said great, that sounds good. And when I finally delivered it he said that it tied in with some of his feelings about the universe. That was nice, that we were philosophically on the same page. He didn't cut a word.



JG: Yes, and by the end of it I actually felt like I was taking dictation from the universe. Now, I'm sure there are many ways of interpreting that experience that don't require cosmic voices from unknown entities to be talking to each other, but it actually did feel like I was taking dictation. So perhaps it is real wisdom in the story, who knows?



These parts are probably the most relevant part in relation to canon

 

[Livinmeme]

wait... in the story the "dreams represents reality or story about fictional things" just because the dreams are a metaphor of fictional things doesnt make the argument of the player tracending the game seeing as fiction as explained by the entities that they even said that he reached a higher level so there is what i understand... still valid tho because the creator of the poem says several times that the dreams are fictional works like minecraft and you need to wake up from the dreams that you have created

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Finally someone that give the interview instead of using mental gymnastics to refuse to give it thanks man or woman

Man, and someone already passed it before, I just copied the link.

 

[Livinmeme]

This part is probably the most relevant part in relation to canon

he is just saying that there are ways that you can interpreate the things he is saying without cosmic entities info dumping you for 10 minutes and that it can be interpreted in many diferent ways.... the problem is the player see minecraft as fiction it isnt because is by far the most obvious and he was refearing to dreams

aka: just because you can interpreate parts of the poem doesnt mean everything can be interpreted in the poem also the player seeing minecraft as fiction is the biggest part of the poem and without that that would fail appart also how hard you need to overthink to interprete the entities saying that minecraft is a dream aka fiction and the player sees him as fiction to that not being Reality-Fiction

you can interpret what the meaning of the dreams but not the dream himself that is like interpreting a movie yes you can change the plot but you really cant denie that is just a movie

 

[Livinmeme]

Man, and someone already passed it before, I just copied the link.

wait it did?

 

[TheGatememer]

This is the thing the author said wasn't meant to be taken seriously, yes. Well spotted.

If you don't want to "rely on the subjective", perhaps it would be in your best interest to find verses with actually solid evidence of Tier 1 stuff.

All I remember is the author saying that the dream stuff is a metaphor. Not that the "reality-fiction" stuff isn't meant to be taken seriously.

 

[Livinmeme]

All I remember is the author saying that the dream stuff is a metaphor. Not that the "reality-fiction" stuff isn't meant to be taken seriously.

and? several series are a metaphors but we dont rejects the feats on the series rigth?

the feat being a metaphor isnt a good argument to downgrade it yes i think that wasnt your intention but i am just spreading the word

 

[TheGatememer]

and? several series are a metaphors but we dont rejects the feats on the series rigth?

the feat being a metaphor isnt a good argument to downgrade it yes i think that wasnt your intention but i am just spreading the word

I was more referring to the fact that it's blatantly shown that the Player sees Minecraft as fiction. And that the End Poem is an established part of Minecraft's lore, not just some random "thank you" letter from the developers.

 

[Livinmeme]

I was more referring to the fact that it's blatantly shown that the Player sees Minecraft as fiction. And that the End Poem is an established part of Minecraft's lore, not just some random "thank you" letter from the developers.

i mean i said " think that wasnt your intention but i am just spreading the word" but yeah also what even would dreams do

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

wait it did?

Yes, later it was brought again when KieranH10 asked for it.

 

[Tago238]

What’s the situation on the canonicity of Steve’s resurrection?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Ed argues it is still canon due to respawn anchors in the nether. No real evidence regarding overworld respawning but eh.

 

[Tago238]

Alright, fair enough. I’d be neutral on that then if anybody’s counting.

 

[Livinmeme]

every time someone talks in the thread it gives me physical and mental pain

anyway any counter argument because we kinda countered every single one

 

[Leotamer]

Regarding the Word of God situation, there is an irony I noticed about it: Think about what the symbolism of the poem is: As the interview said, it is dream as metaphor. And the dreams mentioned are the short dream, the game, and the long dream, reality. The poem is about how we can immerse ourselves in a work, in particular a game like Minecraft which is theoretically endless in many regards, and where the lines of fiction and reality blur. Trying to say "it is a metaphor, don't think about to hard." is contrary to what the actual metaphor is.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Thread became a big boy pretty quickly, eh? In any case:

As said above, over and over, being a metaphor does not mean something cannot be indexed. The story of Midas is about how money can't buy you happiness. The main character has the power to transmute anything and anyone he touches into gold. Revered Insanity, a chinese novel, presents the MC as a metaphor for capitalism, including the worst of it like the MC disregarding their own family's lifes because they have nothing of worth to give him, but he is still an indexable character since he is a cultivator with magical powers. And I can go on, being a metaphor=/=being non-indexable.

^ This post pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on the subject, for the matter. While, as said before, I do obviously agree that the End Poem needs to go if interpreted as a pure metaphor, I believe the arguments pushing for that front are a little silly, for reasons that Ricsi and Leotamer articulated nicely enough in the posts above. I'd also like to argue about the exact rating of the End Poem's statements, in the occasion where we take it literally, but it seems like that topic was swallowed by more important shit, at the moment

The whole argument, I think, comes mostly from people conflating text and meta-text when it comes to the Poem, and, if we really want to delve into Julian Gough's statements regarding the interpretation he had while writing the story, I think it's fair to point out a few more tidbits of the interview linked above, where he elaborates more on his intent:

Ending an endless game: an interview with Julian Gough, author of Minecraft's epic finale

Born in 1966, raised in Galway on the west coast of Ireland, and now resident in Berlin, Julian Gough has been many things: lyricist and singer for cult Irish rock…

boingboing.net

Here, for one, him and the interviewer seem to pretty much agree on the notion that Minecraft is a reflection of the concept of The Hero's Journey, and Gough then talks about how all mythical, heroic quests are really just metaphors for the journey that all people go through in their lives, and not meant to be taken literally when it comes to their core meaning.

TC: The gaming pioneer Richard Bartle talks about games in mythic terms: how your personal encounter with a game space maps quite closely to the mythical idea of "the hero's journey." You go in as this novice, this noob, make your way through perils and challenges, become heroic and powerful, and triumph over adversity.

This surely describes our experience of so many game-worlds. At the very end of Minecraft, you slay a dragon, for goodness sake! Markus has gone for the mythic bullseye.

JG: Yeah. I'm a huge fan of the original book about the hero's Journey, by Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. I've read it quite a few times, and love his idea that there is one mythic story through all cultures – the monomyth – and that if you tease out the elements of any myths in any part of the world, they are the same story.

The next step, which is the one that interests me, is that this monomyth is essentially a metaphor for the individual journey that we all have to go in our lives. Whether we leave the house or not, whether we pick up a sword or not, we are going to have to go on a journey, encounter the universe, and try not to be destroyed by it – try to grow, and to come out of it with knowledge. The trouble is that we start to believe that a myth is actually a set of facts, and that destroys it. If we think it's actually a story about a guy who got nailed to a tree, or who went up to heaven off the top of a building – if we think these things actually happened, it kills it for us, because these are stories that are trying to go beyond language and words, beyond what we can say, to the unsayable truth.

Campbell's argument – he wrote The Hero with a Thousand Faces just after World War Two – was that we live in a time when all the myths are dead, and this means that we're in trouble, because it means that we don't actually know how to achieve wisdom. We don't have a stable myth that works, and so it is the job of the artist to try and make myths that are alive again. Campbell was really excited when Star Wars came out, because George Lucas had famously based Star Wars on The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And by god it worked – in every single culture around the world!
I think computer games can serve the function of religion. They can do the good bits that religion used to do, and hopefully not do the bad bits…

And, again, this is not just empty words from the author, since the aspect of the Hero returning from his Journey with some form of wisdom and enlightenment is reflected in the End Poem itself:

JG: I wanted a dreamy kind of feeling, like you'd broken through something. When you're playing Minecraft in Survival mode, you're performing a quest that is difficult and takes a long time. I felt that at the end of the quest there should be some moment of enlightenment, some ambiguous wisdom. That you should have something to bring back – and you should feel you've broken through into some other level. That is the feeling I wanted, and I liked the idea of an overheard dialogue to create it.

Now, here's an odd thing. When writers look back over stories, they make up a story about the story and say, oh, I wanted to do this, I wanted to do that. But that's not actually true to how it feels at the time. If I went back and told you what it was like writing it, it was quite odd, because I started trying to write my way into it and thinking, what do I want – but about half way through it, I had an odd feeling that doesn't happen very often, where my hand started moving faster than my thoughts and I was just watching my hand.

So, really, I don't think him saying "yo, this is a metaphor" means much, especially since, as shown above, the dude thinks of any heroic tale as a metaphor for something that informs an aspect of our lives, which I think is enough to shed a light into the division between text and meta-text which Leotamer talked about up there.

Moving on: In another part of the interview, Gough also comments about how he wanted the End Poem to come off as an actual spiritual experience for people, which is also an element present in the text itself; after all, it's entirely comprised of the Universe itself telling a story to The Player and talking about how special they are in the grand scheme of all things, and whatnot.

TC: But more interestingly than that dislike, for me, was the fact that this ending really got to some people emotionally. It's remarkable and strange – but entirely of a piece with reactions I've seen to other games – that some people seem to have gone away and thought about it loads. Those ten minutes have been a kind of miniature spiritual experience for them.

JG: Brilliant! Because that's what I wanted to do. And I have been getting messages on Twitter from people for whom that's what seems to have happened: they can't stop thinking about it, or are thinking about it a week later. I'm not going to take all the credit for it, but it's like I've triggered some kind of emotion that was in them already. I've had some extremely touching messages – it's kind of embarrassing to talk about – from people saying "thank you", and that it really made them think, or that it was beautiful.

And he then (In a few excerpts that were already posted in this thread, I might add) goes on to talk about how the Poem is also related to his belief that computer games are special, and can in fact cause people to access higher states of mind (Or, as he himself puts it: Frames within frames) normally only brought to people through drugs, meditation and religious experiences. And all of this is really just an extension of what was said in the above quote.

TC: I think this is another reason why I'm so interested in the film Inception, to go back to that, because part of its message is that if you go deep enough into the dream – or into a game – you can seed an idea in someone, and it will get to them in that paranoid, strange little place where myths are born or perpetuated.

JG: That's certainly what I wanted to do. And I was greatly relieved when it turned out that it was working for some people. In fact, I would say that there are mental states accessible through computer games that similar to those accessible through drugs or meditation or religious experiences. You can break the shell of your mind, and find that your mind is bigger than you thought it was: there are frames beyond frames. This probably sounds terribly pretentious, but **** it. I'm fascinated by computer games. They are capable, I think, of helping us achieve any of the mental states that we are capable of achieving. They are not a genre, not a toy; they are infinite, and we haven't begun to explore what they can do.

And, again, this intent is expressed very explicitly in the text, too, since the entities talk about how The Player has the potential to ascend into "the highest level," which is beyond the long dream of life, just as it is beyond the short dream of the game. And this is pretty clearly supposed to be taken as a higher state of being, because the entities say that The Player would be able to visualize concepts that it can't even comprehend in its current state.

It worked, with a million others, to sculpt a true world in a fold of the [scrambled], and created a [scrambled] for [scrambled], in the [scrambled].

It cannot read that thought.

No. It has not yet achieved the highest level. That, it must achieve in the long dream of life, not the short dream of a game.

So, yeah, to reiterate, in case people still didn't catch that: I don't think the text being stated to be a metaphor means shit here, because, in the author's view, the whole journey that you experience in the game is also a metaphor for something else. So, I suppose we may as well delete the entire verse because of that.

Hell, even the stuff about heroic quests having the objective of conveying some universal truth that is ultimately unspeakable and beyond what words can express is found in the Poem, too, since the entities explicitly state that the story which they tell the Player is itself just a convenient metaphor, because the plain truth is too much for their mind to handle:

I will not tell the player how to live.

The player is growing restless.

I will tell the player a story.

But not the truth.

No. A story that contains the truth safely, in a cage of words. Not the naked truth that can burn over any distance.

With that, I rest my case. And I can explain it again, if needed.

Another argument I've seen being brought up here (Mainly by Alonik) is that the End Poem is not indexable anyway, since it is meant to address the actual, real world player, and not just a fictionalized version of them. In my opinion, this seems a bit silly to consider: Since, for indexing of verses with a thin fourth wall to even be possible to begin with, we treat the metafictional elements as being contextualized within the verse, since they obviously are part of it, regardless of what they say.

The fact that the End Poem introduces the existence of characters even higher than the Player is another thing that I believe points to this necessity, too: Regardless of the fourth wall breaking stuff, they are obviously fictional characters, and thus conceptualized within the boundaries of the verse itself: They don't belong to our Real World, much like, say, TOAA, or any Supreme Being that's identified with the author doesn't. It's pretty immersion-breaking and can potentially undermine what a lot of stories are trying to tell, but it's a fairly solid standard, as far as we are concerned, and I don't think it should be changed solely for Minecraft (Although I admit this may come off as a bit of a strawman to Alonik, since he may just be not familiar with how we behave in relation to such verses.)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It is my opinion that a good chunk of the quotes Ultima has now talked about at length are largely irrelevant to the arguments at hand. Hell, a good swathe of it is the writer just saying "I believe video games make you think differently" with quite a lot of other words tacked on in apparently self-aware pretentious text. The poem being construed as non-literal very much does matter, even in spite of the author's other funky views about things.

My vote stands.

 

[AKM sama]

I am for the deletion.

I don't see any feats on that level. I see a questionable piece of text that is up to interpretation with the WOG saying it is metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is an unspoken rule. And with how contentious and flimsy the evidence is in this case, it is by no means enough to match the level of the claim.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So the arguments are... the same as before, wonderful.

So here's the thing, give me the quotes then. If you want to claim that the poem was written with the intent of not being an ending to Minecraft but just a metaphor, give me a quote. Maybe you did and I missed it, then go through the pain of scrolling up and quoting it with a click of a button.

It's being claimed a hell of a lot, but I can't for the life of me find proof of it.



The man was hired to write an ending. He presented his concept to Notch, who accepted it. The fact that the writer hoped that his own, real-life philosophy would be carried over to the readers... means nothing to us. The intent of why it was written does not change the fact that several parts of the poem reference you just finishing and playing Minecraft in a way that cannot be separated from Minecraft itself without parts of the poem losing their meaning.

Again, are we claiming that king Midas cannot get a profile despite having transmutation, just because his story is a metaphor for how gold does not buy happiness?

I don't see any feats on that level.

Downgrading any profile that dreams universes into reality, and if it stops dreaming them, the reality gets destroyed? Less gooo...

I see a questionable piece of text that is up to interpretation

and the universe said you are not separate from every other thing

and the universe said you are the universe tasting itself, talking to itself, reading its own code

with the WOG saying it is metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally.

Sure, point me to where it does.

...You can't. For one, you cannot because he only uses the word "metaphor" twice. The first time, he specifies the word dream is a metaphor. The second time, he claims the hero's journey is a metaphor for our lives, which are all our own hero's journeys.

For two, he states the opposite in fact, claiming that he truly believes this is true about the universe, and that he felt as if he was being dictated to by the universe while writing. Talk about taking it literally, he takes it so literally he thinks it is true for us.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Which the 15-minute poem does give in great amounts.

This is an unspoken rule.

Unspoken rules are the bones of double standards. Half of the arguments here rely on "Nah, Minecraft tier 1? In what world?"

And with how contentious and flimsy the evidence is in this case,

Could you please actually counter it then?

Seriously, no actual arguments against the claims in the OP were given. Any argument here was based on the idea of the poem not being eligible for a profile, no-one actually argued against why the evidence would be wrong if we were to index it.

it is by no means enough to match the level of the claim.

Based on what metric?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Are your arguments any different? Surely constantly shifting arguments would be a bad thing, no? We're unconvinced of your interpretation of the feat. That, in of itself, is grounds to delete it. The proof hasn't fundamentally changed in any way since being brought in, I don't know why you expect people to simply invent new arguments when the originals are still fully functional.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Are your arguments any different? Surely constantly shifting arguments would be a bad thing, no? We're unconvinced of your interpretation of the feat. That, in of itself, is grounds to delete it. The proof hasn't fundamentally changed in any way since being brought in, I don't know why you expect people to simply invent new arguments when the originals are still fully functional.

Why would that be grounds of its own?

Because you are mods, obviously. Because you don't need to prove others wrong, you just have to not be convinced in greater number than the once that are convinced.


But, yes, my arguments did change.

When the OP said its 1-C, I argued that all dreams are on the same level.

When the comments said that the poem is purely metaphor, I argued that this is a baseless claims that contradicts what the WoG actually says.

When it was said that the poem has nothing to do with Minecraft, I pointed out how the poem references and ties in with Minecraft several times, and how it was written for the game and approved by the creator of the game.

When it was said that dreaming our reality into existence isn't a feat I explained why it is, and I pointed out that stopping to imagine them is claimed to destroy such worlds in the poem.


The problem of you not changing your argument is that my own was a response to your own.

You claim it is a metaphor. I claim it is not, explain why it can't be, and ask you to prove you claim. You claim its a metaphor.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. You'll have to bear with me for a moment here, I'm going to try to explain something.

Now, what if we were to assume that the purpose of a debate was to convince people of an argument.

Furthermore, what if failure to do so, be it via lack of concrete evidence or simply insubstantial arguments or some other factor, meant that one hadn't successfully made, say, a Tier 1 upgrade thread go through.

This is the fundamental of a debate. You can point the finger and jump up and down with righteous fury all you like about how the mods are tyrannical assholes. There are mods in favor of the upgrade, too. But the fact is most remain unconvinced. So I'd appreciate if you didn't try to make it about the mean ole staff blocking your Tier 1 Minecraft upgrade, and more about the fact that the userbase is, currently, in the majority of favoring deleting pages, mods and normal users alike. Thanks.

For the record, your explanations as to why it cannot possibly be a metaphor are doubtful. Regardless of how much expunging and text you put out about this belief of yours, this remains correct. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as AKM said. You simply stating the end poem is said extraordinary evidence does not make it so.

 

[KieranH10]

I'm still neutral but leaning slightly towards deleting the feats personally.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Tallies, for the record.

In Favor of 1-C Upgrades (20): Emirp sumitpo, ShakeResounding, Zencha, OnosokunoSonic, Saikou the Lewd King, Rabbit2002, The Wright Way, Milly Rocking Bandit, Maverick Zero X, Manu zarri, Planck, Ricsi-viragosi, MrKerf, Akuma No Hissatsu, Akuto123, Rtxthegamer, Leotamer, Fastestthingalive50, InfiniteDay, Livinmeme

In Favor of Deletion (22): Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Bobsican, Alonik, Yar R Agi 7k, StrymULTRA, Moritzva, Rikimarox, Paul Frank, Delta333, Everything12, GyroNutz, DaReaperMan, The Impress, Expectro2000xxx, FinePoint, ProfessorKukui4Life, Antvasima, Dominodalek, The Quirky Boy, Lou change, AKM sama

Staff votes are currently 7-3 in favor of deletion. Crabwhale has also stated disdain over Discord but would rather not comment on the thread so I've withheld his name from being in the actual tally.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okay. You'll have to bear with me for a moment here, I'm going to try to explain something.

Now, what if we were to assume that the purpose of a debate was to convince people of an argument.

Furthermore, what if failure to do so, be it via lack of concrete evidence or simply insubstantial arguments or some other factor, meant that one hadn't successfully made, say, a Tier 1 upgrade thread go through.

This is the fundamental of a debate. You can point the finger and jump up and down with righteous fury all you like about how the mods are tyrannical assholes. There are mods in favor of the upgrade, too. But the fact is most remain unconvinced. So I'd appreciate if you didn't try to make it about the mean ole staff blocking your Tier 1 Minecraft upgrade, and more about the fact that the userbase is, currently, in the majority of favoring deleting pages, mods and normal users alike. Thanks.

For the record, your explanations as to why it cannot possibly be a metaphor are doubtful. Regardless of how much expunging and text you put out about this belief of yours, this remains correct. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as AKM said. You simply stating the end poem is said extraordinary evidence does not make it so.

A debate isn't a one sided conversation. That's a lecture.

You make a claim, and I counter it. You should at least make a pretense of caring about arguments made against you by providing reasoning to why you disagree.


Because the burden of proof is on you. You are claiming a piece of text is purely metaphorical. You are the one that needs to provide proof, not me that needs to counter it.

Which you did, by claiming WoG. Problem is, that I've read that full interview thrice now, and I can't find the part of it that claims the text is metaphorical.


So I asked you to just provide me a quote. And you answered with "you failed to convince me."

 

[PrinceofPein]

Tallies, for the record.

In Favor of 1-C Upgrades (20): Emirp sumitpo, ShakeResounding, Zencha, OnosokunoSonic, Saikou the Lewd King, Rabbit2002, The Wright Way, Milly Rocking Bandit, Maverick Zero X, Manu zarri, Planck, Ricsi-viragosi, MrKerf, Akuma No Hissatsu, Akuto123, Rtxthegamer, Leotamer, Fastestthingalive50, InfiniteDay, Livinmeme

In Favor of Deletion (22): Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Bobsican, Alonik, Yar R Agi 7k, StrymULTRA, Moritzva, Rikimarox, Paul Frank, Delta333, Everything12, GyroNutz, DaReaperMan, The Impress, Expectro2000xxx, FinePoint, ProfessorKukui4Life, Antvasima, Dominodalek, The Quirky Boy, Lou change, AKM sama

Staff votes are currently 7-3 in favor of deletion. Crabwhale has also stated disdain over Discord but would rather not comment on the thread so I've withheld his name from being in the actual tally.

add me to nuking the feats

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A debate isn't a one sided conversation. That's a lecture.

You make a claim, and I counter it. You should at least make a pretense of caring about arguments made against you by providing reasoning to why you disagree.


Because the burden of proof is on you. You are claiming a piece of text is purely metaphorical. You are the one that needs to provide proof, not me that needs to counter it.

Which you did, by claiming WoG. Problem is, that I've read that full interview thrice now, and I can't find the part of it that claims the text is metaphorical.


So I asked you to just provide me a quote. And you answered with "you failed to convince me."

And a debate in which both parties constantly blurt out the same things over and over again is a circle. The arguments in favor of nuking have been made and, as far as I can tell, stand the test of time. Your counters need to be sufficient to make that untrue to win a debate. Christ sake.

It's been posted earlier on. Forgive me for not swimming through 4 pages of bible-posting to repost it again. Feel free to do so.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And a debate in which both parties constantly blurt out the same things over and over again is a circle. The arguments in favor of nuking have been made and, as far as I can tell, stand the test of time. Your counters need to be sufficient to make that untrue to win a debate. Christ sake.

It's been posted earlier on. Forgive me for not swimming through 4 pages of bible-posting to repost it again. Feel free to do so.

Then please just quote them. It's not that I'm ignoring the counters, I do not see them anywhere.

Okay, so, you said it's purely metaphor. I said the writer specifies the word dream is a metaphor, and asked where you get everything else being a metaphor comes from.

So, what was the argument against that? I genuinely missed it if it was given.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

btw you missed me in your tally as towards upgrade. Not that it likely matters, but still.

And honestly, I would also like to see the actual refute of the most recent points for the upgrade. I've seen many a points against past points, but I'm uncertain if they truly hold up, especially since the interview says something completely different to the "The whole thing is a metaphor" that was constantly battered against the defenders side. And unironically, that is the only real point I remember against this other than "I don't think it works because there aren't enough feats for it" which honestly rings kind of hollow to me considering there was only one point where this could have happened, and it definitely gives enough in my eyes.

It is not as if there aren't massive tier jumps for other fictional settings in the last bit of the story to begin with that aren't similarly legitimate.

 

[Antvasima]

Tallies, for the record.

In Favor of 1-C Upgrades (20): Emirp sumitpo, ShakeResounding, Zencha, OnosokunoSonic, Saikou the Lewd King, Rabbit2002, The Wright Way, Milly Rocking Bandit, Maverick Zero X, Manu zarri, Planck, Ricsi-viragosi, MrKerf, Akuma No Hissatsu, Akuto123, Rtxthegamer, Leotamer, Fastestthingalive50, InfiniteDay, Livinmeme

In Favor of Deletion (22): Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Bobsican, Alonik, Yar R Agi 7k, StrymULTRA, Moritzva, Rikimarox, Paul Frank, Delta333, Everything12, GyroNutz, DaReaperMan, The Impress, Expectro2000xxx, FinePoint, ProfessorKukui4Life, Antvasima, Dominodalek, The Quirky Boy, Lou change, AKM sama

Staff votes are currently 7-3 in favor of deletion. Crabwhale has also stated disdain over Discord but would rather not comment on the thread so I've withheld his name from being in the actual tally.

I think that we almost have sufficient votes to go ahead with the deletion option, but I can send notificiations to more of our staff if you think that it is a good idea.