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Some Relatively Minor 40k Revisions

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
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This is all related to inhabitants of the immaterium. This post will be light on quotes, because everything relevant is posted here, which you should go check out if you need more information.

The Chaos Gods' Tiers

In putting this blog together, I realized something about the Chaos Gods' current rating of "At least High 1-B, likely 1-A"; everything before 1-A really doesn't need to be there. The key is supposed to represent the fully unrestricted Chaos Gods in the Immaterium, which should just be 1-A. There are less High 1-B quotes than there are 1-A quotes, and the High 1-B quotes don't even contradict the 1-A quotes. They actually support them.

Hell, we actually have quotes that directly say the Warp is beyond higher-dimensional physics (Crusaders of Dorn) and a "dimensionless void" where "all spans of time stretch eternal" (The Voice of Mars).

High 1-B would be for...some sort of semi-physical manifestations of the gods, I guess? But I'm not sure if that requires its own key or not. Input on that would be appreciated.

Additions to Chaos Daemons

These powers and abilities should apply to pretty much every daemon. I will try to briefly explain why here, but relevant quotes can be found in the blog under the daemon section if more proof is needed.

  • Type 9 Immortality: This should be extremely self-explanatory from looking anywhere in the daemon section.
  • Immunity to Matter Manipulation: Daemons are specifically not made of matter. Not even their projections in the physical universe are made of matter. There is no matter to manipulate. This should be obvious.
  • Immunity (maybe just Resistance) to Disease Manipulation and Poison Manipulation: This should also be incredibly obvious. Daemons are completely immune to all conventional diseases and poisons, as their bodies aren't even truly material. There are some diseases that affect daemons, but these were specifically created by Nurgle himself to do so.
  • Resistance (possibly Immunity) to Possession: There is zero way to conventionally possess a daemon. They do not have actual bodies and every part of them is just an extension of their own essence, with said essence being tied to their respective god.
  • Resistance to Mind Manipulation: Something that, to some degree, should be inherent to every daemon. They thrive in realms that could break the minds of most sentient beings, and their own minds don't operate on a the same level as those of beings bound by reality and causality.
  • Resistance to Soul Manipulation: Similarly, daemons' "souls" are their entire essence (unlike almost every other being in the setting), which is again directly tied to and bound by their respective god.
  • Resistance to Reality Warping: Daemons are beings whose very presence in realspace is Reality Warping, to a degree. Their nature is repeatedly described as "unreal" and not linked to the laws that govern reality.
  • Resistance to Existence Erasure: Daemons are born from and live in a realm that is repeatedly described as "unreal". Daemons themselves are born from "the very stuff of unreality", and the realm of chaos is so anathema to the laws of physics that ships traversing it need a bubble of "reality" surrounding them so that they don't just cease to exist. Trying to erase a daemon is like trying to erase something that, by conventional standards, already does not exist.
That's about it for now, I think. All daemons' true selves should also be unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation due to their true nature and the nature of the Immaterium, but that only matters for daemons with keys for their Warp selves.
 
If we don't really acknowledge a separation between the Semi-Physical Form of the Gods and the full abrangent reach of the concepts they embody we'll have "Lol 1-A Khaine!" threads at any moment.
 
Semi-physical gods wouldn't be the same as fully immaterial gods, though.

Khaine fought the former, and not the latter, thus he couldn't possibly qualify.

That's part of the reason I suggested potentially another key, just so nobody gets confused, but I wanted input on if people felt a key was the best way to go. Something like "Manifestation (40k) | True Self (40k)".

Also helps explain stuff like Skarbrand and Kairos.
 
Eh, here's the thing.

Whenever we talk or read about "Chaos God X did Y", they refer to their manifestation. Whenver they talk about a Chaos God in more metaphysical terms they are referring to the latter, and they often make it clear that the Chaos Gods aren't really active or sentient beings like we understand them. They just are.

So I would rather not use the terms "Manifestation" and "True Self" as they imply something like a physical avatar and a full being.
 
I definitely think they should have a different key. Hell, I actually vouched for it before.

I also... really don't think they need an "Influence outside of the Warp" key, since it's describing their influence in a place that they don't actually exist in, which is both unnecessary and super misleading, given the threads that have sprung up using them as if they're combatants.
 
@Matt

Yeah, it's super basic, but I'm not sure what else to call certain keys. "Metaphysical Idea of Khorne" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

@Ever

Agreed, those keys are hella superfluous.
 
@Azathoth

I think we remove the keys outside the Immaterium. And then go with something like

"Immateral Form" | "True Self"

But I'm not sold on the "True". Something like "Abstract Self" or whatever I don't know.
 
@Matt

I'd be fine with calling them that, if others are.

We'd just have to make sure to add a little "(40k)" afterwards, for obvious reasons.
 
"Immaterial Form" likely works, as the Gods at the heart of their realms were referred to as "a form that embodies their personalities".

For the second key, "Abstract Self" could work as well, as I don't know if there's really a better term for them, available. Unless there's something that best captures their nature as ideas and influences that I'm not thinking of.
 
It would also technically be kinda redundant, because they're already metaphysical.

Though this also means we should probably work out a way to separate powers and abilities via keys, as well. Even though they're the same for the most part, there would still be a few key differences.
 
Gargoyle One said:
>Immunity to Matter manipulation
Golden King?
Click to expand...
This part

"even hundreds of critters which are supernatural phenomenon which are above the laws of physics, can't be physically harmed or destroyed, have no material form, exists only as possibilities, and can also capable of existing as information and aren't even alive in a conventional sense, instantly die"

would be the only part that matters, and that isn't Matter Manipulation, by definition.
 
Immunities definitely should be resistances. The fact that Nurgle and presumably other sufficiently powerful disease manippers can bypass it precludes complete immunity, and the term immunity is too absolute a designation to use. Same with the possession, except I've never seen possession specifically need a material form for it to work. Matter manip immunity works though, since something explicitly not made of matter being affected by matter hax is contradictory. The tesistences overall seem good tjough. I like the term "Abstract form" being used to describe their full, 1-A conceptual embodiment selves, though am generally neutral on that whole issue.
 
I've got a question about Resistance to Existence Erasure.

I'm not disagreeing with them having it based on how they manifest in the materium/realspace. But isn't just a case that you need to destroy not only the physical body but their esseence in the Warp?

Because that was how I always interepted the Grey Knight's Holocaust ability and purpose. Also, there was the time that Gregor Eishenhorn battled a Daemonhost and in attempting to destroy it, which he did accomplish, he believes that he may have not only destroyed the physical body but also it's essence in the Warp.

Just curious.
 
A resistance isn't absolute. They should have some degree of EE resist in the warp as well iirc. That's more of a Grey Knight feat than anything else.
 
@TheC2

Because their essence in the Warp is quite literally made of "unreality". It is anathema to what we normally think of as "existence", and daemons have been "killed" in the Warp but not had their essence fully dissipate.

I don't know if Eisenhorn or the Grey Knights are the best judges of what's actually happened to a being they can't fully understand. Vulkan using some Emprah powers to perma-kill a Great Unclean One was treated as a pretty huge deal, which I don't think it would have been if any Grey Knight or mid-level psyker could go around perma-killing daemons.

Even that showing demonstrates they're not entirely immune to it, but the degree of power required to pull it off is generall considered to be absolutely ridiculous.
 
The "Holocaust" ability that some Grey Knights can use can perma-kill lesser daemons. It is literally described as a small-scale version of the Emperor's final blast against Horus.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The "Holocaust" ability that some Grey Knights can use can perma-kill lesser daemons.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that makes sense. Was thinking more of "all daemons in general", but the constitution of lesser daemons canonically isn't as strong.
 
Also the Holocaust takes an entire group to actually perform and the time I saw it done in a novel, the attempt, while successfully pulled off, drained them of everything they had and as Matt said, that was to destory a bunch of lesser daemons.

As for Eisenhorn, he was amped way beyond his normal psyker levels to around like Alpha class due to his equipment, IIRC.
 
A strong enough Alpha could probably kill a daemon of a normal daemonhost, unless the daemon was supposed to be like prince of greater daemon levels and not some lower-scale ones.
 
Now I'm reminded of the guy who was a Daemonhost for Lord of Change, and then overpowered the daemon that posessed him, but was still scared shitless of Abaddon.
 
But Abaddon is like Building level

On a more serious note, I need to figure out how to properly split the powers among Fantasy and the two 40k keys, now.
 
Aren't they the same chaos God's? I thought fantasy was like some section of the universe that somehow got cut off from the rest of it.
 
They are (in MOST ways). The differences are mainly just Higher Dimensional Manipulation, the degrees of Regenerationn, and the types of Immortality.

I'm mainly just trying to figure out how to make it look as clear as possible.
 
Put all the abilities into fantasy, the for 40k do something like "all previous abilities on an unfathomably higher scale, along with (whatever else isn't on fantasy)"
 
Gork and Mork most definitely don't scale. Hell there is a line saying they are currently being overwhelmed by legions of daemons crawling to their knees.
 
Let me find it.

Here:

"As the apocalyptic designs of the Chaos Gods approach fruition, the immaterial realm is roused to ever greater fury. So it is that Gork and Mork fight all the harder against the daemonic tides washing about their feet."
Codex Orks 7th Editio
Clearly states that Gork and Mork are having trouble fighting legions of daemons and not the gods themselves.
 
I think the Emperor should be At least High 1-B, likely 1-A seriously. We have no ******* clue how the Warp Emperor really works let's be honest.

Unless like, the Celestine Solo Novel gives us a fuckton of new lore.
 
I was actually going to say that, as well. I think that works best for the moment, as we're not sure if he's quite as "abstract" as the Chaos Gods are, or if he just has similar power.

God that would be cool, though.
 
Any reason why Ynnead isn't being considered for High 1-A?

I'm not saying he should be, but... I'm just curious, really.
 
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