Something About Castlevania

[Ultima_Reality]

So:

Creatures of Chaos (Castlevania)

Creatures of Chaos; or Creatures of the Night, are the main antagonistic forces in the entire Castlevania franchise. While coming in many different shapes and forms, they all exist to answer the call for darkness in the world, whether through the hearts of humanity or from the source they all...

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Belmont Bloodline

Returning to life time and again since the ancient middle ages, the evil lord Dracula has driven people to terror. Each time Dracula returned from the dead, the Belmont clan fought him in shadows, wielding the holy whip. Through their efforts, humanity avoided darkness, securing...

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Non-Physical Interaction (Intangibility - Elemental, Immaterial, Spatial and Phasing - Can interact with beings made of Fire, Can interact with and harm enemies made of gel, attack beings that can phase through dimensions to not get hurt, and kill those who can phase through objects with magic)

The bolded part is what we're focusing on. Three problems: 1) There's no mention of the demon "phasing through dimensions," he's just inside a mirror. 2) It's not intangibility. Again, he's just inside a mirror. 3) You can't actually harm him while he's inside the mirror, you need to wait until he comes out to attack him. in fact, as the scans on the page themselves show, the ability you gain from his soul is becoming temporarily invincible, so it makes no sense at all to act like every creature of chaos can harm him.

And one more thing:

Acausality (Type 4; the laws of the human world do not apply to Creatures of Chaos)

So, Type 4 Acausality is completely unjustified here. All this says is that the laws of the human world don't apply to the realm where Dracula and Death exist, but there is no elaboration whatsoever on what's included in these laws, and the statement is only done in reference to the fact Death is immortal. At any rate, it certainly isn't enough to infer that the Abyss operates on different laws of causality.

Agree: 6 (Ultima Reality, Maverick Zero X, CrimsonStarFallen, Agnaa, Deagonx, SirOvens [on Acausality])

Disagree: 4 (Theglassman12, Planck69 [on NPI], UchihaSlayer96 [on NPI], DarkDragonMedeus)

Neutral: 3 (Planck69 [on Acausality], UchihaSlayer96 [on Acausality], SirOvens [on NPI])

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

This makes plenty of sense, agreed.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bro please just compile a lot into one CRT, this ain't GOW

Yeah, seems logical, I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Seems good

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Looks good

 

[Theglassman12]

The mirror is another dimension. Dawn of sorrow you literally get that same ability and is described as going to another dimension.

Also when has functioning under different laws than normal reality not been enough for Acausality? Thats always been the standard to get type 4.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The mirror is another dimension. Dawn of sorrow you literally get that same ability and is described as going to another dimension.

That's focusing on 1 point out of three. The overall proposal still stands.

Also when has functioning under different laws than normal reality not been enough for Acausality?

Why would it be enough?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[Theglassman12]

You’re still making a wrong assumption on what the mirror hopping means when we see what that entails. Also it’s still intangibility as he’s literally going to another dimension in order to phase through attacks, something Soma does when he gets its soul. The intangibility page literally describes it as such.

Spatial: The ability to shift into other dimensions so as to avoid and phase through attacks

So yeah by our definition it’s spatial intangibility

Because functioning under different laws than normal reality would mean that you function under a different type of cause and effect that normal beings function under. Devil May Cry has this for the demon functioning under different laws than the human world. Literally when has it ever been a requirement that the laws of the world that the beings don’t abide by need to be elaborated in the first place in order to justify it being Type 4 Acausality in the first place because none of the franchises I’ve seen that proposed and got the ability remotely needed those laws to be specified in order for it to be accepted.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

You’re still making a wrong assumption on what the mirror hopping means when we see what that entails. Also it’s still intangibility as he’s literally going to another dimension in order to phase through attacks, something Soma does when he gets its soul.

We see what it entails, yeah. It's just hopping into mirrors to avoid attacks (And conversely being able to be harmed just fine when coming out of them, as the video linked in the OP shows). You also haven't really addressed the fact that they can't be harmed in that state, either.

Because functioning under different laws than normal reality would mean that you function under a different type of cause and effect that normal beings function under

Why? Nothing requires it to be the case that normal causality is restricted entirely to the human world. That's what you need for your argument to succeed, but there isn't anything even suggesting that.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think the issue is that it's not intangibility if he's physically going somewhere else. It's not Reimu where her physical body goes into a higher dimension but we can still see her. The mirror dimension has to be crossed entirely by jumping into it. It makes sense that this is dimensional travel, and not intangibility.

Also when you say "the laws of the human world do not apply to Creatures of Chaos" it doesn't specify what laws. Why would you assume the law of causality is by default one of them? Occam's razor and whatnot.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I think the issue is that it's not intangibility if he's physically going somewhere else. It's not Reimu where her physical body goes into a higher dimension but we can still see her. The mirror dimension has to be crossed entirely by jumping into it. It makes sense that this is dimensional travel, and not intangibility.

In fairness, this is true of the enemy version of the ability, but Soma's version does work exactly like that. Other point still applies, though. He's Invulnerable to all enemies while in that state, and the Kyoma Demon likewise is invulnerable to you while inside the mirror. NPI off of that is clearly bunk.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

agree with the thread.

Why? Nothing requires it to be the case that normal causality is restricted entirely to the human world. That's what you need for your argument to succeed, but there isn't anything even suggesting that.

and yess am saved w comment , dont need to do,say anything for my thread etc

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality they actually can be interacted in that state, Soma can still be physically grabbed when he uses the mirror ability to hope between dimensions by the Succubus so there is NPI for creatures of chaos.

The demon world (Castlevania itself) is warped to not be like the human world given the inverted castle exists where everything is all reversed to how things normally operate where candles hang upside down magically speaking among other things, also again, literally when has this been the standard for type 4, because I've never seen it needed to be spelled out that causality is needed to be spelled out when other franchises don't remotely need that spelled out and yet that's still fine enough.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality they actually can be interacted in that state, Soma can still be physically grabbed when he uses the mirror ability to hope between dimensions by the Succubus so there is NPI for creatures of chaos.

That'd just apply to monsters on the level of the Succubus and up, whereas the current page treats it as universal to all creatures of chaos. The latter is demonstrably incorrect, as shown by the fact that the ability isn't useless in the game.

The demon world (Castlevania itself) is warped to not be like the human world given the inverted castle exists where everything is all reversed to how things normally operate where candles hang upside down magically speaking among other things, also again, literally when has this been the standard for type 4, because I've never seen it needed to be spelled out that causality is needed to be spelled out when other franchises don't remotely need that spelled out and yet that's still fine enough.

Why would this support your point about causality at all? There is nothing to respond to, here. It's literally a non-sequitur. I don't particularly care if other verses on the wiki have similarly bad justifications; it just means they need to have the ability removed, too. This isn't a matter of standards, just basic logic. So, answer me: Why would the statement automatically include normal causality among the laws exclusive to the human world?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't know why three threads are required for these simple changes. Seems fine on the surface at least for the acasuality.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

@Ultima_Reality they actually can be interacted in that state, Soma can still be physically grabbed when he uses the mirror ability to hope between dimensions by the Succubus so there is NPI for creatures of chaos.

I would rather see this as a game mechanic
The succubus is def just coded to grab you no matter what without the standard hitbox, and thats why it works

I wouldn't trust it without some lore reason. It would be like trying to nerf the verse because you can die to random spikes on the ground
I mean, that power works against bosses too. If its just that succubus that can touch you in that state it would be really weird to scale it universally

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I would rather see this as a game mechanic
The succubus is def just coded to grap you no matter what without the standard hitbox, and thats why it works

I wouldn't trust it without some lore reason. It would be like trying to nerf the verse because you can die to random spikes on the ground
I mean, that power works against bosses too. If its just that succubus that can touch you in that state it would be really weird to scale it universally

I mean, the power works on Boss Chaos too.

And based on the lore, I would highly doubt that a simple power from a simple chaos creature would work against this Boss.

But then it gets into the subjective thing of what is or isn't game mechanics.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

though instead of having multiple ctr why not have one ctr ultima

 

[Robo432343]

i remember this part in the game and not seeing aca 4

 

[Jinsye]

where candles hang upside down magically speaking among other things, also again, literally when has this been the standard for type 4, because I've never seen it needed to be spelled out that causality is needed to be spelled out when other franchises don't remotely need that spelled out and yet that's still fine enough.

This should not be the standard for type 4, I would think that the entire standard needs changing if its the case.

 

[RenderGK]

Look fine..

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Agree

 

[Hypertornado099]

@Ultima_Reality they actually can be interacted in that state, Soma can still be physically grabbed when he uses the mirror ability to hope between dimensions by the Succubus so there is NPI for creatures of chaos.

Can any other enemy interact with Soma in this state?

 

[Robo432343]

saying, "so many other verses have acausality type 4 for literally the same reason' is an indication that you pretty concede

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hypertornado099 Some enemies that have dedicated grab mechanics are designed to interact with Soma despite him hopping through the mirror, plus you cannot just walk through it like you can normally with other attacks given Soma's stuck in her grasp.

@LIFE_OF_KING That doesn't debunk the fact she still grabs you, like what part of that is game mechanics and not just something scripted to happen? Game mechanics is being able to die to normal weak enemies that are canonically weaker to you, not an in game scripted thing that's designed to happen.

The bosses can't hurt you directly with it, interacting is a whole nother story, which the Succubus can do on their own despite the fact they can't actually harm Soma until its worn off. Logistically speaking, any other forms of chaos beings that are far stronger would be able to interact with these beings.

@Ultima_Reality So you agree it's NPI for any of the beings comparable to or far superior to the Succubus? Also news flash Ultima, every creature of chaos on the site is either at bare minimum comparable to the Succubus or is far superior to it, so saying it would only be comparable to succubus and up is just what we already have, so nuking it from the creatures of chaos page would be redundant to list it off to everyone that's comparable to if not superior to it in the first place.

It's not a non-sequiter when it's literally where the creatures of chaos lives, where everything is completely inverted on how things even work compared to the human world outside the castle. Because laws of the human world are normally referring to how the laws of the world is, which generally speaking talks about the cause and effect of this world in the first place and how it all works. If creatures of chaos do not abide by the laws of the human world at all, then they'd have to function under a different set of cause and effect rules by deductive reasoning, especially if the castle has shit like Up being down or the candles in the castle not being affected by gravity that other foreign beings aren't affected by.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

So, Type 4 Acausality is completely unjustified here. All this says is that the laws of the human world don't apply to the realm where Dracula and Death exist, but there is no elaboration whatsoever on what's included in these laws, and the statement is only done in reference to the fact Death is immortal. At any rate, it certainly isn't enough to infer that the Abyss operates on different laws of causality.

Then why is it also talking about Dracula you know...who dies practically by every belmont (not to mention death also hits the grave a lot)? It does talk about the lifespan but why only assume its about lifespan because sure as hell it ain't the only laws we have. Even the Japanese said: Living outside the bounds of human law (人の法の埒外で生きる).

saying, "so many other verses have acausality type 4 for literally the same reason' is an indication that you pretty concede

Oh you mean the fact that if one apple is acceptable the same apple should be acceptable? You know...what we call standards.

I also see Glass's point regarding the NPI too considering Paranoia here uses the same abilities as the Kyoya demon with it calling the mirror world a parallel dimension.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Some enemies that have dedicated grab mechanics are designed to interact with Soma despite him hopping through the mirror

If this is something that just happens with every enemy that has a grab attack, then Life_of_King up there is probably correct, yeah. It's almost definitely just a game mechanic.

It's not a non-sequiter when it's literally where the creatures of chaos lives, where everything is completely inverted on how things even work compared to the human world outside the castle. Because laws of the human world are normally referring to how the laws of the world is, which generally speaking talks about the cause and effect of this world in the first place and how it all works. If creatures of chaos do not abide by the laws of the human world at all, then they'd have to function under a different set of cause and effect rules by deductive reasoning, especially if the castle has shit like Up being down or the candles in the castle not being affected by gravity that other foreign beings aren't affected by.

Real world pop-sci articles mentioning causality don't really mean anything. No one is disputing that normal causality as a phenomenon applies to the human world, just that it is exclusively applicable to it, which is what the premise your argument needs to succeed. If regular causality applies both to the human world and the Abyss, then the Abyss can still be outside the former's laws just fine, because causality simply happens to not be something that exclusively exists there.

And this is something you have to positively prove rather than just assume, by the by. By the exact reasoning you're using, you could also extrapolate the statement to mean the Abyss is outside the laws of logic, or any number of things, which serves pretty well to demonstrate the insane leap you're making.

 

[Theglassman12]

How’s it a game mechanic? That doesn’t make sense when it’s a scripted attack designed to do something specific to Soma. Saying game mechanic to something built into how Succubus’ attacks work is stupid when that’s in her lore to entice and drain their victim’s life. This is just moving the goalpost more than anything.

Did you read Red’s comment on how they’re even stated in the Japanese to live outside the bounds of human laws? Because that’s already an indication that it’s exclusively applicable to the human world and not something creatures of chaos abide by.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How’s it a game mechanic? That doesn’t make sense when it’s a scripted attack designed to do something specific to Soma. Saying game mechanic to something built into how Succubus’ attacks work is stupid when that’s in her lore to entice and drain their victim’s life. This is just moving the goalpost more than anything.

Because if it's just something that all enemies with a grab mechanic can do (Not even just the Succubi. Every enemy that grabs you), then chances are that it's just how the game is programmed to work, with there being no need to insert lore explanations into it. It's not moving the goalpost, just making a basic observation.

Did you read Red’s comment on how they’re even stated in the Japanese to live outside the bounds of human laws? Because that’s already an indication that it’s exclusively applicable to the human world and not something creatures of chaos abide by.

I did see that, yeah, and I ignored it because it doesn't really matter, seeing as the statement is effectively the exact same. Bottom line is that you're just assuming that causality is included in "human law/the laws of the human world," when that assumption is fundamentally unjustified, for reasons I already outlined.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Can any other enemy interact with Soma in this state?

None except the succubus.
The game has a code where the succubus grab can still grab soma rendering you unable to move until the attack completes even while invincible but unable to damage him due to invul state

while for the most enemies in chaos (in the chaos realm stage)
none can harm him but he can still be grabbed and such (I just tested)
another thing I tested is that
The succubus grab can also nullify transformation (by grab stunning you returning you back to Soma form) which are also treated as invulnerability frames while in transformed state

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ultima_Reality So the animation with the Succubus literally kissing Soma when he's still in the dimension isn't an indication whatsoever that this is something she's actually doing and not some random game mechanic script? Because if it was game mechanics they wouldn't add the detail of her making contact with soma to drain his life. Also yes it is moving the goalpost when you went from "only succubus and higher can do this" to "oh this is just game mechanics".

What do you think the laws of the human world mean in a general sense? Can you answer this? Because scientific explanations on the laws of our world is all based on cause and effect with how everything operates.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So the animation with the Succubus literally kissing Soma when he's still in the dimension isn't an indication whatsoever that this is something she's actually doing and not some random game mechanic script? Because if it was game mechanics they wouldn't add the detail of her making contact with soma to drain his life. Also yes it is moving the goalpost when you went from "only succubus and higher can do this" to "oh this is just game mechanics".

Why would that detail not be there? If it's just programmed to happen that way regardless, then the full animation will, in fact, play out regardless of what effect you have in place. What you mentioned is also not "goalpost moving" so much as "You mentioned a detail that made me suspicious on it," not exactly far-fetched.

The game has a code where the succubus grab can still grab soma rendering you unable to move until the attack completes even while invincible but unable to damage him due to invul state

This is interesting, also. If she can grab you, and yet you receive no damage whatsoever because of Mirror World being active, then that's even clearer indication it really is just game mechanics, unless Succubus' NPI is rather selective on how it works.

What do you think the laws of the human world mean in a general sense? Can you answer this? Because scientific explanations on the laws of our world is all based on cause and effect with how everything operates.

Haven't the faintest clue for this case, and nor do I need to. It's just a vague statement being over-extrapolated way beyond anything that sufficiently satisfies the text. The rest of what you're saying is basically just "Causality applies to the human world," which is not something I'm denying and way undershooting what you actually need to demonstrate to prove your point.

 

[Theglassman12]

Because she wouldn't be able to interact with you otherwise if Soma can normally walk through her like he can do with any other conventional attack. Also her not dealing damage doesn't contradict NPI as nothing about NPI has anything to do with literally harming beings, but just interacting with them in the first place.

What part of "They're a creature of darkness, who do not abide by the laws of the human world" is vague? Also if you're not denying that causality applies to the human world, then why would creatures literally stated to not be bound by the laws of the human world be functioning in those same laws of cause and effect and not some other laws to begin with where cause and effect aren't the same for them?

 

[Planck69]

I agree with Theglassman12 on the matter of NPI. This seems like jumping through an absurd amount of hoops for what is a pretty clear showcase.

Neutral on Type 4 Acausality. I can see the issues but what is being brought up as necessary proof is never necessitated a majority of the time, so I'm unsure of how much we should lean on that without addressing it for Type 4 as a whole.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Because she wouldn't be able to interact with you otherwise if Soma can normally walk through her like he can do with any other conventional attack. Also her not dealing damage doesn't contradict NPI as nothing about NPI has anything to do with literally harming beings, but just interacting with them in the first place.

The reason Soma is invulnerable to damage is the intangibility. If you bypass the intangibility, logically, you should be capable of dealing damage to him. You have to argue that the avoidance of damage has a totally different mechanism from the intangibility to say that you can bypass one, but not the other, which is not really evidenced anywhere.

What part of "They're a creature of darkness, who do not abide by the laws of the human world" is vague? Also if you're not denying that causality applies to the human world, then why would creatures literally stated to not be bound by the laws of the human world be functioning in those same laws of cause and effect and not some other laws to begin with where cause and effect aren't the same for them?

I already explained why, several times. Causality applying to the human world doesn't mean it exclusively exists in the human world, and therefore doesn't necessarily mean that being "outside of human law" means you are outside causality, because there is no justified reason to assume causality is solely and exclusively "human law." You have to demonstrate more than "Causality is a thing in the human world" to go from this to "Everything outside human law is outside causality."

 

[Theglassman12]

No, that's not how NPI works, it's literally being able to interact with the being in question as if they're a physical object to interact with. Actually harming them isn't remotely needed, and Soma's still in the other dimension while being grabbed in the current dimension so he's still being interacted with.

It being exclusively to the human world isn't my main argument, it's that creatures of chaos are outside of whatever cause and effect rules apply in the human world and function on different rules, ergo different sets of cause and effect. The Acausality page itself even makes this clear

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page.

It's functioning on different systems than the regular world, being outside the laws of the normal world means you're not bound by their systems and you'd operate completely different than normal. If I was arguing that Causality was exclusively to the human world only and they're above all of cause and effect then I would've pushed for type 5 Acausality a long time ago with that kind of logic.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

then shouldn't it be necessary to note that although they can interact they still cannot harm intangible beings.
because aside from indexing we are also a vsdebate community. this kind of information without notes can be detrimental to the secondary objective which is vsdebate

 

[Theglassman12]

If that needs to be specified, then sure. Though in the grand scheme of things given the range the characters in castlevania have it does just help them directly harm spatial intangible beings by just reaching across the dimension, so yeah.