Sonic fights with Sonic (Smash VS Paramount) [2-2-0]

[Pyro9278]

Super Smash Bros: 2 ( @Nonynho @Causalist )

Paramount: 2 ( @Arkansalter2 @Kellex )

Metal Sonic Stomps both:

Equal speed. Smash has access to: Chaos Emeralds, Skill Tree, Stickers and food (Equipment). Anything above High 6-A is restricted. SBA for the rest.

 

[Nonynho]

Assuming Smash's up to date, he can start as Super Sonic and do substantial damage to movies' sonic so that his advantages (intelligence, LS, possibly burrying for a few seconds, and some others) so i'm inclined towards him rn

 

[Arkansalter2]

intelligence

Paramount Sonic not too far behind. He legit went from getting godstomped by Knuckles in their first fight to literally pinballing the man in the second fight.

LS

Smash sonic isn't getting anywhere near PSonic, let alone touch him. He just casually bobs and weaves a damn near gatling punch.

possibly burrying for a few seconds

NONE of Smash sonic's attacks bury, I fear.

Mind you, if Paramount even remotely does... anything, Smash sonic is getting ashed within a second because f*** you chaos energy!!

 

[Nonynho]

Mind you, if Paramount even remotely does... anything, Smash sonic is getting ashed within a second because f*** you chaos energy!!

Anything above High 6-A is restricted.

ig no

NONE of Smash sonic's attacks bury, I fear.

Custom move Hammer Spin Dash

Smash sonic isn't getting anywhere near PSonic

Aren't we using the Class 25 value? vs Class M, Smash Sonic would be taking this, no?

Paramount Sonic not too far behind.

Yeah, but a dent above+the other stuff i pointed out should be enough

 

[Arkansalter2]

ig no

That's just him tryharding even more. It can still happen even when he's just zooming around.

Aren't we using the Class 25 value? vs Class M, Smash Sonic would be taking this, no?

Paramount won't touch smash at least not that much. Smash's grabs aren't really too potent anyways or much of value.

Yeah, but a dent above+the other stuff i pointed out should be enough

Yeah but it's the fact that Paramount sonic is like 1000x more agile than smash sonic. Paramount sonic can do everything smash sonic can do.

I see the main arg is super sonic. Super sonic grants smash sonic flight and/or blitz level amps depending on how you see it (sm4sh or SSBU). What you don't know is that either only last for around 10 seconds at most and from there he's back to normal. Blitzes is literally Paramount's thing considering he can also amp his speed as well depending on how much he tries and you do realize that Paramount sonic knows how to deal with a super sonic anyways in this key? This is movie 2 onward sonic, which means by this time, he would know how super sonic works and would do stuff accordingly.
Smash sonic can't do half the stuff that Paramount Sonic can do. More agility + chaos energy + ability to control his speed unlike Smash should be able to give him the win.
I vote Paramount, mid diff.

 

[Nonynho]

i'll go Smash Sonic FRA, high-mid diff

 

[Pyro9278]

Votes counted, if someone can share the thread in the discussion thread of both verses it would be helpful to discuss further.

 

[Causalist]

Smash: 275.93 petatons

Paramount: 442.39 Petatons

1.6× AP advanatage for Paramount

A small enough gap to be easily made up for with one transformation into Super Sonic, which also amps Smash's speed enough to basically garantee a hit. Possibly even knocking him out instantly since Sonic's showing with Knuckles implies he's a glass canon. Even without Super Sonic though, Smash just has more options at his disposal. At least at first glance.

PM has good acrobatics, but Smash can match them even without his far superior options of self-momentum. Combine that with his shield and he overall has a greater defense.

Smash's better LS means that he can easily capitalize on a grab. Once he gets his hands on PM, he can pummel him theoridically for as long as he wants, or combo a throw into his Final Smash for a garanteed kill confirm. His burrying homing attack can serve a similar purpose.

The biggest hurdle to overcome for him is PM's heat and radiation emission. Smash Sonic can withstand dips in lava. How does that compare to PM Sonic's 100 000 000 C° lightning? He can also survive in space. How does that compare to to the nuclear level radiation of PM's lightning?

 

[Arkansalter2]

How does that compare to PM Sonic's 100 000 000 C° lightning? He can also survive in space. How does that compare to to the nuclear level radiation of PM's lightning

It doesn't.

 

[Causalist]

It doesn't.

Ok, so Smash Sonic has more advantages while PM Sonic has one singular advantage huge enough to one-shot in-character. It's only a matter of whether or not Smash Sonic's shield, dodges, and superior skill can keep him alive long enough to wear down PM Sonic before being ******* melted.

 

[Arkansalter2]

It's only a matter of whether or not Smash Sonic's shield, dodges, and superior skill can keep him alive long enough to wear down PM Sonic before being ******* melted.

Sonic creates those temps extremely casually so yeah.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sheesh, compelling arguments for both.

This seems to be a matter of if Smash can use Super Sonic both fast enough and efficiently enough to take down Paramount, while Paramount simply has to start using his Chaos Energy (which, when taking the novelizations into account, would be pretty soon into the fight).

What's the likelyhood Smash can dodge Sonic's projectile lightning, or at least react fast enough to use his shield in response?

 

[Arkansalter2]

would be pretty soon into the fight

The first thing he does btw.

What's the likelyhood Smash can dodge Sonic's projectile lightning, or at least react fast enough to use his shield in response?

He can try to, however those won't last super long before Smash sonic eventually gets fried.

 

[Causalist]

Sheesh, compelling arguments for both.

This seems to be a matter of if Smash can use Super Sonic both fast enough and efficiently enough to take down Paramount, while Paramount simply has to start using his Chaos Energy (which, when taking the novelizations into account, would be pretty soon into the fight).

What's the likelyhood Smash can dodge Sonic's projectile lightning, or at least react fast enough to use his shield in response?

Very likely. His fight against Tabuu proves that he already has experience defeating an opponent with an insta-kill move he is required to dodge, and his various trials in World Of Light mean he already fought clones of himself with unpredictable attributes before, whereas PM Sonic hasn't even yet fought Shadow. When he did, he got skill-diffed, and I suspect the same will happen here. Smash has more experience taking on a greater number of skilled fighters. PM Sonic's best showing of skill was styling on Knuckles, but if I'm not mistaken, that was partially thanks to his minor speed advantage and how Knuckles' skill can be overshadowed by his own temper and arrogance. Tabuu's shockwave is realistically harder to dodge than PM Sonic's electricity, so I really believe Smash can hold out for as long as he needs in at least 55% of plausible scenarios.

Voting Smash. Extreme diff. Very interesting MU with speed equalized.

 

[Causalist]

The first thing he does btw.

He can try to, however those won't last super long before Smash sonic eventually gets fried.

It almost certainly can't take more than one charged hit without needing to cool down or pull off a perfect shield, but that's good enough given Smash's other options for evading.

 

[Causalist]

Bump

 

[Arkansalter2]

It almost certainly can't take more than one charged hit without needing to cool down or pull off a perfect shield, but that's good enough given Smash's other options for evading.

He would have to perfectly pull it off at least all of the time but it likely won't really happen. Because he can amp and down his speed as will as seen in basically every fight.

 

[Causalist]

He would have to perfectly pull it off at least all of the time but it likely won't really happen. Because he can amp and down his speed as will as seen in basically every fight.

If everything beyond High 6-A is restricted, doesn't that include his physical stats boost including speed? After all, it also boosts his strenght to tier 5, does it not?

 

[Arkansalter2]

If everything beyond High 6-A is restricted, doesn't that include his physical stats boost including speed?

Nope. He pulled that off in the first movie when he was still 6-C. He can amp his speed while even being casual without being emotionally empowered whatsoever.

 

[Causalist]

Nope. He pulled that off in the first movie when he was still 6-C. He can amp his speed while even being casual without being emotionally empowered whatsoever.

Shit, so he just blitzes right off the bat even in-character due to "speed equalized" only meaning "base speed equalized"? For what it's worth, he doesn't always emit strong heat or radiation either, so while I'm no longer sure about my vote, I'm also no longer sure if the heat of his lightning is the garanteed win con I think it is. How often does he actually use it?

 

[Pyro9278]

If the wincon is based on speed, then the match cannot be added.

 

[Causalist]

If the wincon is based on speed, then the match cannot be added.

Speed amps don't count either? You're sure?

 

[ARandomDude127]

Speed amps don't count either? You're sure?

Not if they’re blitz level, ESPECIALLY since Smash Sonic is immeasurable speeds and would blitz Movie Sonic to oblivion without SE.

 

[Pyro9278]

Speed amps don't count either? You're sure?

If Paramount Sonic wins by blitz, then it counts.

 

[Causalist]

So, not accounting for speed amps, Smash wins high-extreme diff, but accounting for speed amps, Paramount wins low-no diff but his victory doesn't count. What now?

 

[Arkansalter2]

How often does he actually use it?

In pretty much every fight.

 

[Kellex]

Paramount Sonic FRA

 

[Pyro9278]

So, not accounting for speed amps, Smash wins high-extreme diff, but accounting for speed amps, Paramount wins low-no diff but his victory doesn't count. What now?

It's not a matter of difficulty. It's that if the slower character blitzes the faster character when they're at equal speed, then the match is invalid. So if Paramount Sonic's wincon as a blitz, then it's not allowed.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Paramount Sonic's aura isn't passively that hot. It's only when he builds up speed in a circle (Which turned sand into glass) or attacks directly with it that it'd have any heat. If he was passively running around with temps hotter than the core of the sun, streets would be vaporizing beneath his feet with every step he took. Yet nothing ever happens to the environment.

 

[LaserPrecision]

That said, I think Paramount Sonic's acrobatics and skill feats are better to a degree where he could evade essentially anything from Smash Sonic. He's very elusive and hard to get a hit on. On top of that, he's very aggressive, and gives very little chance to retaliate.

Smash Sonic doesn't really grapple in character so I don't think that's much of a useful advantage, not to mention Paramount Sonic has the AP advantage and can project energy. So he could just knock Smash Sonic off of him (with a flare of his aura) even if he resorted to such tactics.

Smash Sonic's only advantage is the Super Form. I'm not sure how much of an increase it is because in gameplay it varies from game to game. It can just make him invulnerable, or it can make him a blitz level faster (Ultimate). I'd prefer to go off of cutscenes, but I'm not sure Smash Super Sonic has any to go off of.

 

[Arkansalter2]

I'd prefer to go off of cutscenes, but I'm not sure Smash Super Sonic has any to go off of.

He doesn't.
Brawl and Sm4sh lasts for about 13 seconds (which is arguably nowhere near enough time to do anything substancial) and SSBU's only lasts about 5 seconds and is one of the worst final smashes in the entire game of SSBU.
Furthermore, the SSBU version is LEGIT SHIT on bigger maps or in this case irl in which this isn't really a 2-D thing. It's been shown on maps like the great cave offensive that he flies really slowly on bigger maps and spaces compared to smaller maps and spaces.
So super sonic is a wincon but is it a good one? Nah not really.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Brawl and Sm4sh lasts for about 13 seconds (which is arguably nowhere near enough time to do anything substancial) and SSBU's only lasts about 5 seconds and is one of the worst final smashes in the entire game of SSBU.

In defense of Super Sonic, it's viability in a competitive game doesn't dictate its usefulness in vs match-ups. Videogames are built for fairness.

But yeah, if it's gameplay only it's a bit weird. We prolly have to go off of how fast it is in Ultimate even if it contradicts how slow it was in previous installments.

 

[Arkansalter2]

We prolly have to go off of how fast it is in Ultimate even if it contradicts how slow it was in previous installments.

I guess so.

 

[ARandomDude127]

But yeah, if it's gameplay only it's a bit weird. We prolly have to go off of how fast it is in Ultimate even if it contradicts how slow it was in previous installments.

HATE how they just made Sonic’s Final Smash so buns in Ultimate dude

But after looking above, I’m still wary if this match should even count at all due to Paramount’s ginormous speed buffs.

 

[Arkansalter2]

But after looking above, I’m still wary if this match should even count at all due to Paramount’s ginormous speed buffs.

Smash has one too called super sonic so it kinda evens out.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Smash has one too called super sonic so it kinda evens out.

But that lasts like what, 5 seconds since we’re using Ultimate?

 

[Arkansalter2]

But that lasts like what, 5 seconds since we’re using Ultimate?

Yeah + he's invulnerable while doing so in which Paramount isn't. It would blitz Paramount right back for a few seconds.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Yeah + he's invulnerable while doing so in which Paramount isn't. It would blitz Paramount right back for a few seconds.

Mm, I see I see.

 

[Causalist]

That said, I think Paramount Sonic's acrobatics and skill feats are better to a degree where he could evade essentially anything from Smash Sonic.

They are? I've seen all 3 films and I don't see why they would be enough to outmaneuver an already acrobatic version of Sonic with countless mobillity options. If anything, I think Smash's rolls, air dodges, and experience fighting skilled fighters including other Sonics should make HIM able to dodge anything (not accounting counting speed amps), especially since his profile considers those techniques to be intangibillity.

It can just make him invulnerable, or it can make him a blitz level faster (Ultimate)

It actually does both in Ultimate, but when not confined by game mechanics, he has no reason to just mindlessly zoom back and forth while in the transformation. He should be able to use it in the same way his canon counterpart does, albeit with far fewer benefits and a minuscule time limit.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

smash 4 super sonic with ultimate speed