Sonic (Video Game) - Planetary Size Justifications

[Qawsedf234]

Currently the size of the main planet in Sonic is accepted as 184,000 kilometers based on a pixel calc and angsizing. This is officially against our rules, which need to have some in-universe indication of the planet being notably larger or more massive. Such as improbable distances, confirmed sizes or maps that would indicate a larger than average planet.

If these justifications aren't met the base calculation should be used and the ratings reverted from before the upgrade. If they are met the justifications should be added somewhere.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean for one, the calc first gets the size of Angel Island, which is perfectly valid to do. And then it uses an official statement that Angel Island can't be seen from orbit, so uh...

Seems pretty justified to me. I disagree with removing the calc

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean for one, the calc first gets the size of Angel Island, which is perfectly valid to do. And then it uses an official statement that Angel Island can't be seen from orbit, so uh...

Seems pretty justified to me. I disagree with removing the calc

Look at your video

What you can't see from orbit is all the islands dotting the ocean

Tails isn't talking about Angel Island at all, since it's a flying island. He's talking about the random islands that dot the oceans. In addition when tails does show Angel Island its the smaller Sonic Adventure version.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"Dotting the ocean" can apply to flying islands as well, considering that from orbit, they'd appear as such.

And also, these Tailstube videos are always meant to provide additional lore on the series and the like. You'd be hard-pressed to claim this is a hyperbolic statement

 

[Starsprite53]

I mean for one, the calc first gets the size of Angel Island, which is perfectly valid to do. And then it uses an official statement that Angel Island can't be seen from orbit, so uh...

Angel Island isn't one of the islands that dot the ocean, and anyways, Angel island's size from 3&K is way different from the size shown in Adventure and in IDW

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dotting the ocean" can apply to flying islands as well, considering that from orbit, they'd appear as such.

That makes no sense. A flying object doesn't dot something it flies over. It just covers or shades it.

And also, these Tailstube videos are always meant to provide additional lore on the series and the like. You'd be hard-pressed to claim this is a hyperbolic statement

They do provide lore, but the lore provided does not back the calc's assumption.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Angel Island isn't one of the islands that dot the ocean

See above

and anyways, Angel island's size from 3&K is way different from the size shown in Adventure and in IDW

As far as I'm aware... No, not really. Not exactly sure where you're getting this from

 

[ShakeResounding]

Angel island's size from 3&K is way different from the size shown in Adventure and in IDW

This doesn't really matter even if true, which I'd like to see evidence for, because the same can be said for the layout of the continents of Sonic's planet. The calc establishes a size for the island's initial appearance, and applies that consistency.

A more egregious offender is Green Hill, because it's of inconsistent size and location that can be viewed with far more scrutiny than Angel Island.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That makes no sense. A flying object doesn't dot something it flies over. It just covers or shades it.

To dot something means: "(of a number of items) be scattered over (an area)."

Being scattered over the ocean doesn't necessarily mean it has to be directly on it, and that's without mentioning the fact that the whole point of the Master Emerald is to keep Angel Island from falling into the ocean to begin with (and it falls into the ocean at some point too)

They do provide lore, but the lore provided does not back the calc's assumption.

My point is that it's very unlikely to be hyperbolic like you were claiming it was

 

[Qawsedf234]

To dot something means: "(of a number of items) be scattered over (an area)."

Which wouldn't include something flying over an area. Birds or missiles dot the sky, mountains dot the Earth, but satellites wouldn't dot an ocean by being over it.

My point is that it's very unlikely to be hyperbolic like you were claiming it was

Some of the islands Tails showed was one whale sized. Right after he compares the islands to actual countries and nations about how they're bigger.

Overall Tails alone isn't a size justification for the planet being larger. More would be needed.

 

[Theuser789]

Angel Island is 100% one of the islands Tails was talking about in Tailstube. He's talking about the islands where the anthros live, which the equidnas did when they still live. Furthermore, Angel Island is never portrayed to be smaller than South Island or West Side Island in games like Mania where they visit all three islands.

So the Tailstube statement should be valid for planet size.

 

[Eseseso]

Disagree with OP for Clover's reasons.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Which wouldn't include something flying over an area. Birds or missiles dot the sky, mountains dot the Earth, but satellites wouldn't dot an ocean by being over it.

Using satellites is a false equivalence to begin with given that they're completely out of orbit. And not only that, but again... Angel Island falls into the ocean anyway

Some of the islands Tails showed was one whale sized. Right after he compares the islands to actual countries and nations about how they're bigger.

Overall Tails alone isn't a size justification for the planet being larger. More would be needed.

I don't see what this first line proves... Tails is one of the absolute smartest characters in the entire series, rivaling Dr. 300 IQ Eggman himself. Why shouldn't his word be taken as reliable here?

 

[Theuser789]

Which wouldn't include something flying over an area. Birds or missiles dot the sky, mountains dot the Earth, but satellites wouldn't dot an ocean by being over it.

Angel Island isn't smaller than West Side Island which is directly mentioned by Tails as an example. Sonic Origins has island maps where that is made clear, if we want to ignore Mania.

Furthermore Tails statement is talking about ALL islands because he is referring to games like Unleashed where we can only see the continents in the world map, none of the islands. That statement was directly addressing that inconsistency, which is why it's not hyperbole.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Using satellites is a false equivalence to begin with given that they're completely out of orbit. And not only that, but again... Angel Island falls into the ocean anyway

It's not normally in the ocean. It's only there when the Master Emerald is taken away from it or messed with. Tails even brings it up image wise as an example of a natural flying island.

Why shouldn't his word be taken as reliable here?

I think you're assuming I'm arguing that Tails isn't a valid source. I'm not. I'm saying his statement was about islands dotting the oceans and comparing their size to countries. Neither of which would involve Angel Island.

like Unleashed where we can only see the continents in the world map, none of the islands

Did you mean to link me Black Knight footage?

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not normally in the ocean. It's only there when the Master Emerald is taken away from it or messed with. Tails even brings it up image wise as an example of a natural flying island.


I think you're assuming I'm arguing that Tails isn't a valid source. I'm not. I'm saying his statement was about islands dotting the oceans and comparing their size to countries. Neither of which would involve Angel Island.

Well it's still clear to me that from an orbital view, Angel Island would very much be "dotting the ocean." Being scattered all over it doesn't necessarily indicate needing to be directly on it, and that's also not getting into what User brought up with Sonic Unleashed's world map (which admittedly I didn't even know about before)

 

[Theuser789]

Did you mean to link me Black Knight footage?

No, I have no idea what happened. It's supposed to be this link:

 

[Starsprite53]

This doesn't really matter even if true, which I'd like to see evidence for, because the same can be said for the layout of the continents of Sonic's planet. The calc establishes a size for the island's initial appearance, and applies that consistency.

A more egregious offender is Green Hill, because it's of inconsistent size and location that can be viewed with far more scrutiny than Angel Island.

I mean sure, many franchises have inconsistent world building and sizes, but then why using the size from a different game and not stick from the game where the feat comes from or more recent games where it can show the size more accurately.Not only that, relying on that calculation suggests the island's beach is massive, which is simply not the case

 

[Qawsedf234]

and that's also not getting into what User brought up with Sonic Unleashed's world map (which admittedly I didn't even know about before)

The animation on the world split and on the planet screen in Unleashed still shows plenty of small islands though.

In addition this isn't just a straight normal planetary size increase. The calc is arguing that the planet is nearly 50% larger than Jupiter and weighs three times as much. That requires more evidence than a single statement and a pixel calc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean sure, many franchises have inconsistent world building and sizes, but then why using the size from a different game and not stick from the game where the feat comes from or more recent games where it can show the size more accurately.Not only that, relying on that calculation suggests the island's beach is massive, which is simply not the case

I'm not sure what you mean here. The calc gets Angel Island's size from Sonic 3 and Knuckles, and remains consistent with that by getting the planet size from Sonic 3 and Knuckles instead of jumping over to a different game

 

[Starsprite53]

I'm not sure what you mean here. The calc gets Angel Island's size from Sonic 3 and Knuckles, and remains consistent with that by getting the planet size from Sonic 3 and Knuckles instead of jumping over to a different game

The feat is from Unleashed

 

[CloverDragon03]

The animation on the world split and on the planet screen in Unleashed still shows plenty of small islands though.

Uh, no, not really. All we're seeing is the continents, I'm not sure where you're seeing islands.

In addition this isn't just a straight normal planetary size increase. The calc is arguing that the planet is nearly 50% larger than Jupiter and weighs three times as much. That requires more evidence than a single statement and a pixel calc.

I'm not a fan of this logic because theoretically any amount of evidence could just be handwaved with "look at how much of an increase this is, this amount of evidence isn't enough." But there's also the fact that Sonic's Earth is large enough to house two completely separate species on different regions of the planet. So not only is there the standard human population and all that, but also all the anthros as well, and since they live on completely separate parts of the planet, that would at least heavily imply a larger planet size than Earth. Plus, the anthros are almost entirely on the smaller islands scattered across the planet.

 

[Starsprite53]

Also Superstars pretty clearly shows the planet size, especially in cutscenes why we shouldn't scale its size, wouldn't that be better than calc a pyramid from the inside (which idk why that when 16-bits games are famous with such inconsistency it's like using Ness's house to justify that Ness is way bigger than a normal human) and then calc the island based on the pyramid size then calc the planet based on the island's size

 

[ShakeResounding]

The feat is from Unleashed

It doesn't really disregard greater consistency than bending over backwards and using a multitude of different things from different games, that's the point. Why use the 3&K Angel Island, then Superstars' planet for example, and then the Unleashed feat? Using 3&K's Angel Island and then 3&K's Earth is best.

Your points about IDW don't matter as we already treat that as secoodary canonicity (and thus what IDW contradicts, we favor what was presented prior). This was accepted as early as the first CRT that made IDW and Prime canon.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The feat is from Unleashed

What feat? We're not looking at any feats right now

 

[Theuser789]

The animation on the world split and on the planet screen in Unleashed still shows plenty of small islands though.

There's no islands in Unleashed's world map. Can you show where you are seeing them?

 

[Starsprite53]

Uh, no, not really. All we're seeing is the continents, I'm not sure where you're seeing islands.

I'm not a fan of this logic because theoretically any amount of evidence could just be handwaved with "look at how much of an increase this is, this amount of evidence isn't enough." But there's also the fact that Sonic's Earth is large enough to house two completely separate species on different regions of the planet. So not only is there the standard human population and all that, but also all the anthros as well, and since they live on completely separate parts of the planet, that would at least heavily imply a larger planet size than Earth. Plus, the anthros are almost entirely on the smaller islands scattered across the planet.

I agree that Sonic's planet should be bigger than ours, but to that extent? i'm not sure

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also Superstars pretty clearly shows the planet size, especially in cutscenes why we shouldn't scale its size, wouldn't that be better than calc a pyramid from the inside (which idk why that when 16-bits games are famous with such inconsistency it's like using Ness's house to justify that Ness is way bigger than a normal human) and then calc the island based on the pyramid size then calc the planet based on the island's size

Yes, makes sense to use the most recent title for the size of the planet. Why? Because it's most recent? By this logic, wait until the next game in outer space with a planet view and let's redo the calc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The stuff I mentioned points to Sonic's planet being bigger than ours, then Angel Island shows to what extent it should be. I don't see the issue, honestly

 

[Starsprite53]

It doesn't really disregard greater consistency than bending over backwards and using a multitude of different things from different games, that's the point. Why use the 3&K Angel Island, then Superstars' planet for example, and then the Unleashed feat? Using 3&K's Angel Island and then 3&K's Earth is best.

Your points about IDW don't matter as we already treat that as secoodary canonicity (and thus what IDW contradicts, we favor what was presented prior). This was accepted as early as the first CRT that made IDW and Prime canon.

There is no contradiction when there is no official establishment of the island's actual size

 

[Theuser789]

Using the same game for all sizes is more consistent than using 5 different games and trying to stich something together.

 

[Starsprite53]

Yes, makes sense to use the most recent title for the size of the planet. Why? Because it's most recent? By this logic, wait until the next game in outer space with a planet view and let's redo the calc.

I mean, sure? This is what I'm talking about

 

[ShakeResounding]

The stuff I mentioned points to Sonic's planet being bigger than ours, then Angel Island shows to what extent it should be. I don't see the issue, honestly

Because big result = big bad

There is no contradiction when there is no official establishment of the island's actual size

If there wasn't a contradiction in your eyes, then you wouldn't be fighting so hard for a different size now would you?

 

[ShakeResounding]

I mean, sure? This is what I'm talking about

Then I don't need to point out why that's dumb.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, sure? This is what I'm talking about

I'm not a fan of just throwing together what's most convenient from random games when calculating planet size. It's much better to stay consistent with one game

 

[Qawsedf234]

But there's also the fact that Sonic's Earth is large enough to house two completely separate species on different regions of the planet.

That can be accomplished with it being normal Earth sized though. Look at any wild life on an island and how different they are compared to main land species.

There's no islands in Unleashed's world map. Can you show where you are seeing them?

You can see two archipelago and a small island off the cost of the more northern continent.

In addition some of the islands Tails mentioned would be under 20 meters in length, which would be impossible to see anyways.

The stuff I mentioned points to Sonic's planet being bigger than ours, then Angel Island shows to what extent it should be. I don't see the issue, honestly

I find it rather weak reasoning for a planetary size calc for something bigger than Jupiter.

 

[Starsprite53]

If there wasn't a contradiction, you wouldn't be fighting so hard for a different size now would you?

If there is an official establishment of the size or similar sizes, I will be fine with that

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Dark-Carioca @DemonGodMitchAubin Since you both also looked at the calc, what are your thoughts on it qualifying for large planet standards?

 

[Starsprite53]

I'm not a fan of just throwing together what's most convenient from random games when calculating planet size. It's much better to stay consistent with one game

And 16-bits assets are more accurate than modern assets because?

 

[ShakeResounding]

If there is an official establishment of the size or similar sizes, I will be fine with that

The closest official size is from Archie giving us a map of the continents (which is obviously unusable) and gave us no official size stated, though Angel Island was calced at 1.2x the size of Texas there.