Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Sora Vs. Sephiroth: Canon edition
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
- 10,688
- 4,814
Either of them can slap via AP/Concept stuff, but generally speaking i think Sephiroth has better feats of outright skill?
- 4,728
- 3,877
I still have to clean up the profile and clarify it, but yes, Sephy's Mid-Godly Regen and Type 4, 6 and 8 Immortalities aren't combat applicable due to several unclear factors regarding them.
More especifically: Sephiroth can rebuild his body from Jenova Cells through the Reunion right away provided they aren't too split apart, otherwise he can still do so, but it would take too long to be considered part of the battle. He was able to come back despite Cloud destroyed his very self, but it took him quite a while and needed a complex plan, his spirit recovered but was too weakened to act by itself, so he was effectively incapacitated. However, the lore doesn't clarify if it was due to the Lifestream trying to erode his soul, mind, memories and emotions after death, and Sephy having to resort to tearing apart his own spirit to create a core to anchor his individuality, that he was so weak or that the death he suffered was indeed something he could barely recover from. This affects his Type 4 Immortality as well. He can come back, but not right away.
Types 6 and 8 also require a lot of context to verify if they are applicable or not. To say, are there Jenova Cells available or not? It will prevent Sephiroth from dying, but how capable of acting he will be is up in the air on how much "material" he has to work with. If there are no Jenova Cells available or are too far away, Sephiroth can't rely on them to keep fighting in the same match (And his Dimensional Travel is strictly limited to the dimension for the Supernova).
Existance Erasure does wonders against Sephy as well.
EDIT: Gonna give more input later, I am a bit hand tied at the moment >_> But, another factor that's important, Sephiroth can infect people with Jenova Cells through summoning Negative Lifestream. There's also his psychic abilities which are also an important factor, will explain myself in a bit.
More especifically: Sephiroth can rebuild his body from Jenova Cells through the Reunion right away provided they aren't too split apart, otherwise he can still do so, but it would take too long to be considered part of the battle. He was able to come back despite Cloud destroyed his very self, but it took him quite a while and needed a complex plan, his spirit recovered but was too weakened to act by itself, so he was effectively incapacitated. However, the lore doesn't clarify if it was due to the Lifestream trying to erode his soul, mind, memories and emotions after death, and Sephy having to resort to tearing apart his own spirit to create a core to anchor his individuality, that he was so weak or that the death he suffered was indeed something he could barely recover from. This affects his Type 4 Immortality as well. He can come back, but not right away.
Types 6 and 8 also require a lot of context to verify if they are applicable or not. To say, are there Jenova Cells available or not? It will prevent Sephiroth from dying, but how capable of acting he will be is up in the air on how much "material" he has to work with. If there are no Jenova Cells available or are too far away, Sephiroth can't rely on them to keep fighting in the same match (And his Dimensional Travel is strictly limited to the dimension for the Supernova).
Existance Erasure does wonders against Sephy as well.
EDIT: Gonna give more input later, I am a bit hand tied at the moment >_> But, another factor that's important, Sephiroth can infect people with Jenova Cells through summoning Negative Lifestream. There's also his psychic abilities which are also an important factor, will explain myself in a bit.
- 4,728
- 3,877
Okay so, another thing that should be considered for Sephiroth are stuff like his Memory Reading which is not a passive per se, but he is always keeping active. Essentially, his variant of Jenova's ability to thoroughly read minds and memories of people and get full information on them. This can warn Sephy of dangers for current fights and it only stopped working on Cloud and co after they could resist the Lifestream itself.
Sephiroth and Jenova do take advantage of other abilities such as Telekinesis, messing with the opponent's senses, casting illusions and mind controlling, Sephiroth wasn't doing so later on because his enemies either resisted those abilities by that point (the main party in VII) or were much weaker than him and thought he could win easily (AC Cloud, whom he had on the ropes until the he turned things with a Limit Break)
Now, Mind Control requires Jenova Cells in the target, which he can inject with Negative Lifestream, but it's debatable if it would even work on Sora given his strong mind resistance.
And Sephiroth also does have a passive, a minor one,his presence slowly takes away the five senses of mortals causing them to die until they can tap into their seventh sense and reach the true Cosmos he has Fear Manipulation that can make people panic in his presence. However, this is just a minor detail, I honestly would be pretty surprised if it worked on Sora.
Sephiroth and Jenova do take advantage of other abilities such as Telekinesis, messing with the opponent's senses, casting illusions and mind controlling, Sephiroth wasn't doing so later on because his enemies either resisted those abilities by that point (the main party in VII) or were much weaker than him and thought he could win easily (AC Cloud, whom he had on the ropes until the he turned things with a Limit Break)
Now, Mind Control requires Jenova Cells in the target, which he can inject with Negative Lifestream, but it's debatable if it would even work on Sora given his strong mind resistance.
And Sephiroth also does have a passive, a minor one,
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #13
Yeah, Sora resists all of that and has dealt with more scary things than him before (Like, the entirety of Halloween Town, for example).
Sora has the Information Analysis, allowing him to also not only see the power of Sephy, but also his leading move.
Outside of this, the match isn't going to last too much, as everything boils down to who hits who first.
Sora has the Information Analysis, allowing him to also not only see the power of Sephy, but also his leading move.
Outside of this, the match isn't going to last too much, as everything boils down to who hits who first.
- 4,728
- 3,877
So it becomes a mental battle of "I know you know that I know that you know that I know you know?" XD
Sephiroth resists information analysis as well, though. The merging with Jenova and his ascensions and rebirth made him a being too eldritch and unnatural to be analyzed or properly sensed, even by abilities from the Planet itself.
Sora has no proper resistance to Fear Manipulation, supernatural fear would kick in, but all in all Sora would just pull himself together right away and keep going as if nothing had happened.Halloween town isn't scary, it's charming and beautiful in the Burtonesque sense
Found Sora's resistance to Illusions in his KHII key, my bad. What about Telekinesis, though?
A bit of a side note: but how do Conceptual Attacks work? Are they instant kills unless the target resists conceptual manipulation or that depends on what concept are related to and Sora's Darkness erradication is instant destruction due to how there's darkness in all living beings (this is curiosity though, Sephiroth is destroyed in either case here)? Does the Conceptual Attack destroy anything it hits or it needs to properly connect with the enemy? Whether or not Sephy can block Keyblade swings is important, the AP difference means Sora can't block Sephiroth's swings. From what I get though, none of them actually can, it's Game Over for whoever gets touched.
Sephiroth resists information analysis as well, though. The merging with Jenova and his ascensions and rebirth made him a being too eldritch and unnatural to be analyzed or properly sensed, even by abilities from the Planet itself.
Sora has no proper resistance to Fear Manipulation, supernatural fear would kick in, but all in all Sora would just pull himself together right away and keep going as if nothing had happened.
Found Sora's resistance to Illusions in his KHII key, my bad. What about Telekinesis, though?
A bit of a side note: but how do Conceptual Attacks work? Are they instant kills unless the target resists conceptual manipulation or that depends on what concept are related to and Sora's Darkness erradication is instant destruction due to how there's darkness in all living beings (this is curiosity though, Sephiroth is destroyed in either case here)? Does the Conceptual Attack destroy anything it hits or it needs to properly connect with the enemy? Whether or not Sephy can block Keyblade swings is important, the AP difference means Sora can't block Sephiroth's swings. From what I get though, none of them actually can, it's Game Over for whoever gets touched.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #15
I mean, Sora has an spell that allows him to scare off opponents that don't even have a mind.
Telekinesis depends on how good it is, he holds some by himself already.
And yes, they are just instant kills to those that don't resist.
Well, if Sora tries to block, it'll be broken, but he can react accordingly with Risk Dodge then pull Strike Raid.
Telekinesis depends on how good it is, he holds some by himself already.
And yes, they are just instant kills to those that don't resist.
Well, if Sora tries to block, it'll be broken, but he can react accordingly with Risk Dodge then pull Strike Raid.
- 4,728
- 3,877
Lol, primal fear manipulation? Though, from what I get having an ability doesn't mean the user necesarily resists it though. Then again that's a moot point here, one of Sora's main traits are his bravery and strong heart, too much for fear to overwhelm him.
Well, he could lift and restrain the entirety of the VII party before the final battle. All of them are comparable to Tifa who can lift and throw the Weapons. Argueably there's also the control of the Meteor in the international version of the Supernova, which he guides from outside the galaxy into the Sun. However, it's up to debate whether this last one is Telekinesis or Summoning, I am more inclined to the latter.
Can a non-concept resistant opponent block the Keyblade swing, though? That was I was wondering. If Sora's attack will just bust through the Masamune as is not a construct that resists concept manipulation then neither of them can block incoming attacks.
Well, he could lift and restrain the entirety of the VII party before the final battle. All of them are comparable to Tifa who can lift and throw the Weapons. Argueably there's also the control of the Meteor in the international version of the Supernova, which he guides from outside the galaxy into the Sun. However, it's up to debate whether this last one is Telekinesis or Summoning, I am more inclined to the latter.
Can a non-concept resistant opponent block the Keyblade swing, though? That was I was wondering. If Sora's attack will just bust through the Masamune as is not a construct that resists concept manipulation then neither of them can block incoming attacks.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #17
Yeah, Terror works on Heartless and all of that...
Anyways, Sora seems to hold more than enought lifting strength to leave the restraining at a side.
Anyways, it seems that it's not the case, the target needs to hold a "heart" or be conceptual in nature for it to work, which the Masamune obviously isn't. Yeah, verse equalization forces the opponent to hold a "heart" by default, as otherwise it would fall as a Nobody in KH.
Anyways, Sora seems to hold more than enought lifting strength to leave the restraining at a side.
Anyways, it seems that it's not the case, the target needs to hold a "heart" or be conceptual in nature for it to work, which the Masamune obviously isn't. Yeah, verse equalization forces the opponent to hold a "heart" by default, as otherwise it would fall as a Nobody in KH.
- 4,728
- 3,877
Bad puns aside, it must be considered that Tifa is on the very high end of Class G, Sephiroth himself entering Class T. Class M wouldn't be enough to break out by itself. It's a different story if Sora has amps though. Which makes think, is Sora really just Class M? Given the way he can knock skyscrapers around it feels he could be higher.
I see, though even without the equalization, Darkness in the heart is tied to the evil inside and negative emotions right? Something Sephiroth has plenty of, making him a pretty big target for the Keyblade.
If the Masamune can be used to defend himself Sephiroth gets a not so minor advantage against an opponent as dangerous Sora. I guess also worth cosindering is Sephiroth's advantage in range given the Masamune's length and his own height. Ranged combat is also a possibility in which Sephiroth may hold an advantage, given his quick to use attacks such as Energy Blade or Shockwave can also be potentially lethal to Sora due to the AP difference, while he can hold his own as long as he doesn't get hit, something his barriers can help with. This changes of course depending on Sora's ranged arsenal as well and if he has barrier disabling attacks or moves (though simply parrying is still an option)
Another factor that may be worth considering is Sephiroth's 4 elemental Materia which function as a sort of attack drones, a fire one, an ice one, a lightning one and a support one. By themselves aren't that formidable, but given the AP gap it could be pretty important here. Now, Materia's aren't alive per se... they are made of Life force of sorts. It may be worth a mention to see if Sora can destroy them quickly with an ability instead of raw power.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #19
Sora resists elemental attacks, but because of the sheer gap in tier that really won't affect the match and Sora will simply remain as a glass cannon to them.
Sora has some moves that allow him to bypass barriers, but it's debatable if they are tied to AP considering how they work, but there are others that simply appear inside forcefields if needed.
Sora can't really parry with the sheer AP gap, but his block becomes Risk Dodge instead as Block would be broken, allowing to surprise by then doing an Strike Raid.
Anyways, for the Lifting part, well, in that case Sora would be limited, how good it is?
Sora has some moves that allow him to bypass barriers, but it's debatable if they are tied to AP considering how they work, but there are others that simply appear inside forcefields if needed.
Sora can't really parry with the sheer AP gap, but his block becomes Risk Dodge instead as Block would be broken, allowing to surprise by then doing an Strike Raid.
Anyways, for the Lifting part, well, in that case Sora would be limited, how good it is?
- 4,728
- 3,877
Yeah, I thought so as well. Normally, they wouldn't be much of an issue and Sora could just no sell the Elemental Materia magic and break them with physical attacks or use his own magic to destroy them. But the AP gap changes that. That's why I was wondering if Sora has something that can stop the Materia. For example, while Sephiroth resists Power Null, the same can't be said for his Elemental Materia. That would just leave the Materia slowly following Sora around and clumsily using a very short range physical attack ocassionally.
It doesn't necesarilly need to pierce barriers the same way a bullet or a bladed weapon can inflict their piercing damage, though. Some dispelling abilities disable barriers and shields by essentially "disarming" them similarly how you may not be able to... to give an example... break a metal chair, but you can separate its parts with a proper tool. The Dispel Spell works that way, for instance. While Sephy can still parry and dodge himself, his offensive would be more limited compared as if he had a wall stopping incoming attacks.
Risk Dodge is a pretty good option, not only for Strike Raid, but from what I could check around Sora can also use other maneuvers such as quickly step behind the enemy and attack, among other things. It's not quite an assured killing blow, Sephiroth uses a lot Teleportation himself and can fight several opponents comparable to him simulteneously and not get hit (Mind Scan also allows him to see it coming, but if Risk Dodge is instinctive this is rendered much less effective), but it gives Sora a solid option to counter or at least evade and stay in the game, preventing the crush of his guard from being his defeat.
You mean Sephiroth's Telekinesis? If that's so, well, it's an AOE effect with at least a few dozens of meters in range (some argue million kilometers due to the Supernova animation, but I have my doubts on that). It's argueably thought based like most psychic abilities are, but Sephiroth tends to raise his arms in a rather dramatic fashion before using it. Though that could be for dramatic porpuses in the scene itself, as when he was crystallized rebuilding his body in the original game, he used the ability when he wasn't able to move, like his telepathy and mind control (this last one doesn't work on Sora, as even if he was vulnerable to Mind Manipulation, Sephiroth can only control those that carry Jenova Cells)
It doesn't necesarilly need to pierce barriers the same way a bullet or a bladed weapon can inflict their piercing damage, though. Some dispelling abilities disable barriers and shields by essentially "disarming" them similarly how you may not be able to... to give an example... break a metal chair, but you can separate its parts with a proper tool. The Dispel Spell works that way, for instance. While Sephy can still parry and dodge himself, his offensive would be more limited compared as if he had a wall stopping incoming attacks.
Risk Dodge is a pretty good option, not only for Strike Raid, but from what I could check around Sora can also use other maneuvers such as quickly step behind the enemy and attack, among other things. It's not quite an assured killing blow, Sephiroth uses a lot Teleportation himself and can fight several opponents comparable to him simulteneously and not get hit (Mind Scan also allows him to see it coming, but if Risk Dodge is instinctive this is rendered much less effective), but it gives Sora a solid option to counter or at least evade and stay in the game, preventing the crush of his guard from being his defeat.
You mean Sephiroth's Telekinesis? If that's so, well, it's an AOE effect with at least a few dozens of meters in range (some argue million kilometers due to the Supernova animation, but I have my doubts on that). It's argueably thought based like most psychic abilities are, but Sephiroth tends to raise his arms in a rather dramatic fashion before using it. Though that could be for dramatic porpuses in the scene itself, as when he was crystallized rebuilding his body in the original game, he used the ability when he wasn't able to move, like his telepathy and mind control (this last one doesn't work on Sora, as even if he was vulnerable to Mind Manipulation, Sephiroth can only control those that carry Jenova Cells)
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #21
Well, Sora has already dealt with something similar with Lingering Will, so he can just occasionally move as needed.
Guardbreaker really works based on sheer force, respectively, so Sora would be limited to Shotlocks to bypass that.
Which reminds me, Sora using Teleport or Lethal Frame can lead to a quick win.
Mmm... I guess Sora can teleport in that case if anything.
Guardbreaker really works based on sheer force, respectively, so Sora would be limited to Shotlocks to bypass that.
Which reminds me, Sora using Teleport or Lethal Frame can lead to a quick win.
Mmm... I guess Sora can teleport in that case if anything.
- 4,728
- 3,877
He needs to disable the Materia first though. If he can then he can follow the strategy he used against Lingering Will.
What about the Dispel card from Chain of Memories? That works more as a straight up Power Nullification.
Well, Lethal Frame wouldn't really work as Sephiroth resists Time Manipulation and became a presence able to freely move in the timeless layers of the Lifestream, even when he was not a Spirit. Sora's Teleport Sleight wouldn't stop Sephiroth's time, but the teleportation would still work well. Though Sephy can perceive and defend himself in time, Sora gets a very viable attack option.
Teleporting out sounds like a good option at least to escape the hold or prevent Sephiroth from crushing him with the force of it.
What about the Dispel card from Chain of Memories? That works more as a straight up Power Nullification.
Well, Lethal Frame wouldn't really work as Sephiroth resists Time Manipulation and became a presence able to freely move in the timeless layers of the Lifestream, even when he was not a Spirit. Sora's Teleport Sleight wouldn't stop Sephiroth's time, but the teleportation would still work well. Though Sephy can perceive and defend himself in time, Sora gets a very viable attack option.
Teleporting out sounds like a good option at least to escape the hold or prevent Sephiroth from crushing him with the force of it.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #23
Well, KH Time Stop is quite above average as it can affect beings that naturally move in timeless voids, so an higher resistance than that would be needed, especially considering Teleport, Stopga and Letahl Frame are all above other even weaker variant of time stop with the same capabilities as above in the verse.
As for disabling the materia, well, the Power Null can be used there, I guess.
As for disabling the materia, well, the Power Null can be used there, I guess.
- 4,728
- 3,877
Hmm... that's more complicated. Normally this would Sora to having a pretty solid resistance negation regarding Time Manipulation, but the layer of Souls in the Lifestream is described as not having either the concept of time nor distance, and Spirits normally have to follow the collective stream as the Planet carries them, but Sephiroth is one of the few individuals to break free from the Planet's flow and act independently from this "herding" in this realm.
How can Sora deal with AOE attacks? While Sephiroth can use AOE variants of Thundaga, Firaga and Blizzaga and such, these cover a much smaller area and Sora can teleport out of the way. However, Sephiroth's variant of Flare is a huge blast than engulfs the whole area, not a localized burst like most cases, for example, similarly to his Ultima Spell, Graviga could be included as well as it creates a Gravity Well, but that would depend if gravity itself is AP reliant or can be resisted by Sora.
Sora doesn't use any external sources of powers does he? Equipment aside, I mean.
Something I was wondering, how well could Sora deal with Geostigma? Simple contact with Negative Lifestream infects a person and it's actually powerful enough to bypass endgame Cloud's resistance to Corruption and Biological Manipulation (after he endured the effects of the Lifestream and wasn't turned into a monster nor mutated). It can be purified from the body, but it required the Lifestream itself to do so (consider that the Lifestream grows stronger everytime a living being dies and returns to it, which has been going since life began on the Planet), however if Sora has a strong enough ability or his resistances to similar effects are strong enough this should be moot. There is a small catch though, Geostigma isn't the Jenova Cells hurting the host's body, the cells just stay there but the body and their very life identify them as an invader and tries to eliminate them, this struggle is what leads to the symptoms.
How can Sora deal with AOE attacks? While Sephiroth can use AOE variants of Thundaga, Firaga and Blizzaga and such, these cover a much smaller area and Sora can teleport out of the way. However, Sephiroth's variant of Flare is a huge blast than engulfs the whole area, not a localized burst like most cases, for example, similarly to his Ultima Spell, Graviga could be included as well as it creates a Gravity Well, but that would depend if gravity itself is AP reliant or can be resisted by Sora.
Sora doesn't use any external sources of powers does he? Equipment aside, I mean.
Something I was wondering, how well could Sora deal with Geostigma? Simple contact with Negative Lifestream infects a person and it's actually powerful enough to bypass endgame Cloud's resistance to Corruption and Biological Manipulation (after he endured the effects of the Lifestream and wasn't turned into a monster nor mutated). It can be purified from the body, but it required the Lifestream itself to do so (consider that the Lifestream grows stronger everytime a living being dies and returns to it, which has been going since life began on the Planet), however if Sora has a strong enough ability or his resistances to similar effects are strong enough this should be moot. There is a small catch though, Geostigma isn't the Jenova Cells hurting the host's body, the cells just stay there but the body and their very life identify them as an invader and tries to eliminate them, this struggle is what leads to the symptoms.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,513
- 6,877
- Thread starter
- #25
Sora's time stop is already above those that can move free in timeless voids and resist being time stopped in top of that, among other things in the scaling chain (yeah, it's that wide).
Well, Sora has dealt with moves with extremely large AoE before thanks to techniques like Dodge Roll, as for Graviga, I bet it works differently than in KH, but it likely just ignores durability but doesn't actually one shot like the KH variant (correct me if I'm wrong).
External power sources? Beyond summons, no.
Sora's clothes grant a resistance to corruption, and verse equalization would turn that... odd, like, it could be argued that it would affect the body, but the "heart" (Simply put, in KH "identity" is a concept, which is of abstract nature and tied to its owner), on the other hand... not so much.
Well, Sora has dealt with moves with extremely large AoE before thanks to techniques like Dodge Roll, as for Graviga, I bet it works differently than in KH, but it likely just ignores durability but doesn't actually one shot like the KH variant (correct me if I'm wrong).
External power sources? Beyond summons, no.
Sora's clothes grant a resistance to corruption, and verse equalization would turn that... odd, like, it could be argued that it would affect the body, but the "heart" (Simply put, in KH "identity" is a concept, which is of abstract nature and tied to its owner), on the other hand... not so much.
- 4,728
- 3,877
Ah, frig I had forgotten >_>
I am making a summary of what we've talked so far; advantages and options for both and such. I'll post it as soon as I can.
I am making a summary of what we've talked so far; advantages and options for both and such. I'll post it as soon as I can.
Similar threads
