Speed and kinetic energy

[Gwynbleiddd]

It seems that we use calculated speeds to find the attack potency of various characters such as this one and there was a discussion about upgrading Samurai Jack using the KE with the speed from the light dodging feat.

But this should be considered another form of calc stacking since in fiction there is no direct correlation between speed and strength meaning that strong chacters can hit slow and fast characters can have weak hits.So unless the connection is mentioned and shown this AP and speed should be treated differently.

Note:Can someone highlight this

 

[Lina_Shields]

Highlighted the thread.

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm...Well, I heard some complaining about that.

Thing is that for example for projectiles and thrown objects and similar KE should by all means be viewed as acceptable method and a character basically having AP based on a body check with a certain speed doesn't seem that far from that.

If someone for example hits someone else with some heavy object I would usually also want to consider that as attack potency feat. (Similar to if someone hits something heavy and makes it fly fast)

(calc stacking is also technically not the correct term, since nothing is actually stacked, because same feat is used. It goes more into the reasoning of "no Speed from KE")

 

[Lina_Shields]

This thread is reserved for staff members only. Thank you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think this is a case by case analysis. If the AP resulted from KE is vastly inconsistent with feats, then it shouldn't be used, and it should also not be the immediate go-to way of setting up a Tier.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@DontTalk yes projectiles etc are fine but there is a problem with this method.You said it yourself fast characters aren't always portrayed to be strong, that's why i think a person's speed and AP should be treated differently.

 

[DontTalk]

Maybe we should say that it doesn't work for characters themselfs, but for weapons and objects they attack with it can be used? Because if one can calculate how fast one can strike with a heavy hammer (for exmaple) it would seem like a not too wrong method, in my opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew. It depends on whether or not it would contradict the overall displayed scale of the character.

For example, Quicksilver from Marvel Comics usually cannot hit hard at all, and there was a Toriko feat that the OBD calculated as Large Planet level due to the speed, but only had a Continent level displayed scale of destruction.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I also think Matthew is reasonable.

So we judge every case separately (seeing if the KE values are consistent with the character's feats, and should be used only as a last resort of finding a tier).And KE for weapons, projectiles and other objects is fine to use.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I think that KE should be used only if necesary


Not because a character run at X speed we have to abuse KE and have an irrational upgrade

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

KE should be fine if you get it from moving/throwing/manipulating objects (I.E moving a planet with your mind, throwing a character at Mach 80 speeds, throwing a ball, etc).

KE for characters moving should be fine if they use it for actually damaging opponents, like in the DCAU, The Flash tackled Brainiac at MHS+ speeds repeatedly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm with Dark and Matt. Case by case, and cases like Flash, slower Supermen, and Pikachu who actually use their speeds to tackle and hurt their opponent should be acceptable. Projectiles are fine regardless.

 

[DontTalk]

Case by case sounds fine.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Darkanine basically beat me to what I was going to say

Usually KE should be fine for evaluating power, it's just all a case-by-case basis with feats like these.

 

[Thebluedash]

Case by case sounds fine.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I'm with Dark and Matt. Case by case, and cases like Flash, slower Supermen, and Pikachu who actually use their speeds to tackle and hurt their opponent should be acceptable. Projectiles are fine regardless.

City Block Pikachu

 

[AidenBrooks999]

And I agree with Dark and Matt.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What's wrong with City Block Pikachu, seeing how he has at lead 8-A feats?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

What's wrong with City Block Pikachu, seeing how he has at lead 8-A feats?

As far as I know, he was downgraded to 8-C normally

 

[Lina_Shields]

Hmm...

Speed can be used to find KE whe

• He/she swings/deflects using a weapon. The KE of the weapon can be found in this case.
• He/she moves at a certain speed while carrying an object. This is because it requires energy to move an object at a certain speed
• If they use it for actually damaging opponents, and has been directly been shown to make full contact with an opponent while moving at that speed
• A projectile has been calculated to move at a certain speed, such as a cannonball or a spear

Speed cannot be used to find KE whe

• The calculated KE value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series
• There is a destruction/AP calculation along with a speed calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the speed calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

For example, if I swung a mace, and it destroyed a wall, but the speed was calculated to be Mach 300, the energy required to destroy the wall would take priority over the KE in this case.

Other than that, dealing with each situation case-by-case sounds fine. However, I am not sure if we should disregard the kinetic energy of a moving/running person. This is because similar to the examples above, it requires actual energy to move his/her body at a specific speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Lina's suggested wording seems mostly okay to me. What do you think DontTalk?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lina seems to make sense.

 

[Ryukama]

I might be completely wrong, so sorry in advanced lol

However couldn't discrepancies between what the destruction of a feat was, and the KE it logically should be (in certain cases) be classified similarly to Area of Effect / AP. Or am I mistaken?

 

[Antvasima]

It probably depends from case to case, but the point is that we cannot always automatically assume that the AP is equal to the real world kinetic energy.

 

[LordXcano]

Hmm...
Speed can be used to find KE whe

• He/she swings/deflects using a weapon. The KE of the weapon can be found in this case.
• He/she moves at a certain speed while carrying an object. This is because it requires energy to move an object at a certain speed
• If they use it for actually damaging opponents, and has been directly been shown to make full contact with an opponent while moving at that speed
• A projectile has been calculated to move at a certain speed, such as a cannonball or a spear

Speed cannot be used to find KE whe

• The calculated KE value is heavily inconsistent with the rest of the cast in the series
• There is a destruction/AP calculation along with a speed calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the speed calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

For example, if I swung a mace, and it destroyed a wall, but the speed was calculated to be Mach 300, the energy required to destroy the wall would take priority over the KE in this case.

Other than that, dealing with each situation case-by-case sounds fine. However, I am not sure if we should disregard the kinetic energy of a moving/running person. This is because similar to the examples above, it requires actual energy to move his/her body at a specific speed.

This pretty much jsut leaves us back where we were though. The same logic we use to justify KE =/= speed can be used to justify speed =/= KE (which should be a given anyway because a=/=b then b=/=a).

KE =/= speed because characters have unexplained "reserves" of strength that don't match up with mass or speed, it's just a trope that happens.

Speed =/= KE because characters have unexplained "reserves" of speed that don't match up with how much energy they're exerting. In fact it's a common trope to display faster hits as weaker than slower hits, even if the mass was the same.

Just look at any time a speedster does 100 hits in a couple seconds and then pauses to do a haymaker at regular speed that actually moves the opponent.

I would change "speed can be used to find KE" only in these following scenarios:

• The KE displayed is directly shown to be as a result of speed, or at least heavily implied to be so.

This is the same thing we use for speed-from-KE calcs. A character says "this attack is powerful because of how fast it is" and so we get their speed from the calculated KE.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that what LordXcano says makes sense. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Thebluedash]

Sounds good.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Perhaps? Doesn't seem all that different from what we currently have, and honestly I don't really think much needs to be changed about our current policies on the subject.

 

[LordXcano]

Perhaps? Doesn't seem all that different from what we currently have, and honestly I don't really think much needs to be changed about our current policies on the subject.

There was one calc just last week or so that used speed to KE without the "energy is direct result of speed" justification for it that got accepted. I'm pretty sure there was another one this week but I forget the name of that one.

 

[Ryukama]

I have a couple of profiles of mine that need to be slightly revised if this is accepted. Can I do that now or is the verdict still being discussed?

 

[SomebodyData]

I feel like a problem that we need to address (if this is passed) is the KE calcs that are in our accepted list, as in, which ones are still usable?

 

[Promestein]

This would probably affect Touhou tiering.

 

[LordXcano]

I feel like a problem that we need to address (if this is passed) is the KE calcs that are in our accepted list, as in, which ones are still usable?

Planetary debris launch speed should still be acceptable, lest literally every planetary feat just be Planet level.

All frag/pulv/vape calcs should still be good as well.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Moving incredibly large objects at considerable speeds like Mountains, Moons, Planets, Stars, or even buildings should be acceptable too.

 

[LordXcano]

Moving incredibly large objects at considerable speeds like Mountains, Moons, Planets, Stars, or even buildings should be acceptable too.

I think buildings is cutting it a little close but that's just me. Mountains and islands and stuff though, that's fine.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What about moving kaiju sized monsters that dwarfs building?

 

[LordXcano]

Kaiju are literally the definition of KE from mass and speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, basically, I think that we could probably usually use it, as long as it is not contradicted by the story, such as for Quicksilver or the Toriko feat.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Yeah, basically ^that.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, what I really would want to hold on in any case is KE for projectiles. In their case faster $ \Rightarrow $ stronger mostly holds IMO.

For moving anything heavy I would also consider it and if it is implied of course.

Basically more or less completely disabling the method, except with statement, is a bit much in my opinion.

So I would think Lina's suggestion is good, possibly with replacing:

"If they use it for actually damaging opponents, and has been directly been shown to make full contact with an opponent while moving at that speed"

to

"If they are implied to use their speed to cause damage" (or something along that line)

if we want to be a bit more strict.