[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Jinx666]

bump

 

[Imaginym]

Completing the Pokedex, (especially the NatDex), is an optional thing for every save file to do. Unless its PLA, you don't get anything significant or game-progressing by completing everything. You can but its not set or enforced to progress unlike playing the story.
Ergo thats why the selection of Pokemon if they were to be used in Versus Threads should be from an optional pool.
(Id personally prefer if it focused on the actual region-dex so we arent just giving that player access to mons they can only get from outside world-trades with metagaming aspects.)

If this is given sufficient approval by other Staff & Knowledgeable Members, I'll be okay with it.

Well i mean they're gone now so its whatever but their way of making profiles (and it just being accepted to run by their headcanons of 'whose the canon protag') is why i wanted to make this thread in the first place since i frequently got 'Make a CRT' as a response whenever i asked about things like this.

It doesnt need to be an enforced rule but it should definitely be a standard when we deal with Pokemon Protagonists. Unlike NPCs (excluding Red ig), these are cookie cutter player insert characters.

I'm not sure we have so many users acting so problematically that we need to take measures as enforcing a rule. An informal mental guideline seems sufficient.

The verse page thing doesnt have to be a rule, it can be a note. Admittedly i worded it as a rule so that it would be have to be followed by Sean, but since Sean is gone as the only person who was making protag profiles to their own design, I have no issues rebuking it. Its just to enforce the standard .

Reposting this quote of yours for context.
Again, presuming by "rebuking" it, I assume you mean retracting the proposal of the note/rule, I'm fine with it not being included, though you may wish to edit the OP to indicate the proposal's retraction if you choose to do so.
Given that, would you be willing to, as you said, "rebuke" it, since it may help to simplify & make accessible & easier to expediate this CRT?

I mean you can, most of this thread is just the OP getting derailed and focusing on another aspect (since the main proposals of this thread like changing the names and making the profiles forced to focus on both protags interchangeably is uncontroversial to everyone except the guy that isnt allowed on the wiki anymore)

I'd have to find time to check this thread. Plus, no offense meant, but I'm not always able to find time for VSBW, plus, as a Thread Moderator, I am often asked to participate in other threads, & often wish to help in those threads, further cutting into my time.
Hence, if you're willing, please, I think it would be helpful if you could gather & provide a listing of who has made which stances where in this thread. But if you're unwilling, that's understandable.

They misunderstood/didnt read the OP and assumed from the current derailed convo that this was about compositing game mechanics or w/e for Pokemon when it wasnt. I linked the post they sent and all they talked about was regarding the discussion going onn at the time about how we treat the Pokedex.

Given it's been almost a week & they've been brought up, I'll @ them here.

@KLOL506 : According to thread OP, Jinx666, you misunderstood the premise in the opening post while making your earlier response, as elaborated recently in this thread. Would you be willing to look into the matter & provide further response, please?

Hope this helps. Apologies for the wait.

 

[Jinx666]

Its not an 'enforced rule', so much so as a verse-made standard, so we dont get future protagonist profiles like this that don't follow the standard. Even with Sean gone, we don't want these pages made with this in mind for the future. I dont really see what the issue is with leaving it as a 'rule' in that sense but its whatever

Only the staff votes matter so, staff votes are you and KLOL technically (even though they didnt comment on the actual OP). Idk if Randomhelper counts but they're about too.
Everyone else who agrees with the first two points at least are Me, Bobsician, Shiftctrl, ShockingPsychic, Ghengiroo, Zyurtunder, and probably more but i cant see any concrete confirmation by those parties.
A ton of this thread is just derailment about tiering and whether they get access to every Pokemon which isnt what its about. That can be discussed later, but just goes to show that the acceptance of basic stuff is kind of unanimous that there needed to be some other topic change (I'd welcome this normally but CRTs take so long to pass that it can be another thread's issue atp)

So overall the outcome would just be to shift the protagonist profiles we have (8 of them iirc) into blogs, and those can be edited by anyone willing to accoomodate for both protags, changed names, and be set with whatever the 'optional equipment' is. Otherwise thats all im really asking for in this thread.

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Helping with a Minor Bump

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Jinx666]

b u m p

Can this pass now?

 

[Jinx666]

bump

 

[Jinx666]

Bump???

 

[Jinx666]

B u m p

 

[DaReaperMan]

This thread was solved in the first 3 pages. Being blunt, this doesn't convince me of anything that isn't PC pages being as they are right now. There is no standard team for them, the closest you get is Masters giving them specific Pokémon, but I shouldn't have to say that secondary canon shouldn't have priority in mainline stuff. If it's that much of a problem, just slap a note on the Standard Equipment section explaining that they have no set team of Pokémon.

 

[Jinx666]

Doesnt need to convince you specifically. Can you even go over what the thread is actually trying to say cause its beyond just deciding what their 'canon team' is. We can cut all the Masters bs as well, it isnt canon despite what Sean kept convincing you (there isnt masters stuff included but that doesnt decide what their canon is, its an entirely detached spinoff game where the only confirmed 'canon' thing is that the writers are portraying the characters as they would in the game, NOT the events. Masters quite literally has a bunch of protagonist duos crossover and has their counterparts interact, let alone making stuff up to specifically fit the fanfiction crossover narrative.)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Part C is the one I disagree with, yes.

A is partially trying to overturn a secondary canon CRT that was accepted as it is now, so yeah, anything trying to fully decanonize Masters is going to get the no from me. It's heavily restricted as is because of the fuckery surrounding it, but full decanonization is basically going against where Nintendo places it storywise.

But, for B, I'd more so go for "Playable Trainer (Pokémon Sun/Moon)", and that's kinda it. Mainline is like 95% game mechanics to begin with, and as always the stamina of a Playable Character is weird as hell. So count me for name change, no on everything else.

And please remember I'm not evaluation staff, but if you want to count my vote do it like "Agree with Name change, non-masters related things, disagree with masters related parts, Part C, and Game Mechanics being an argument"

 

[Jinx666]

Part C is the one I disagree with, yes.

The profiles already dont go over absolutely every possible pokemon a player character can get, but yeah, it would be down to options for them either way that would need to be specificed under any discussion thread (such as what pokemon theyre using). No point continuing to mislead people that absolutely every

#A is partially trying to overturn a secondary canon CRT that was accepted as it is now, so yeah, anything trying to fully decanonize Masters is going to get the no from me. It's heavily restricted as is because of the fuckery surrounding it, but full decanonization is basically going against where Nintendo places it storywise.

Its not overturning anything. Masters doesnt get to decide which protag is the canon counterpart, it follows its own interpretation. As with any other series that has different interpretations and canons, they go in a separate profiles. Or at least they should but no one gives af about cleaning up the verse standards

Idk how many times i gotta tell this to ppl but no matter how many times Sean had to keep coping to himself about that thread that Masters was 100% canon, and was telling everyone is now canon, it wasnt. The thread concludes that Masters content requires discussion to use, and was after the fact those profiles were made (and thats ignoring the fact people cant differentiate when people are writing a character to be faithful to their canon counterparts, not applying to their canon story). Its not Nintendo that decides its canon either way, its Gamefreak. Nintendo is the publisher.

And please remember I'm not evaluation staff.

Fully aware

 

[DaReaperMan]

The profiles already dont go over absolutely every possible pokemon a player character can get, but yeah, it would be down to options for them either way that would need to be specificed under any discussion thread (such as what pokemon theyre using).

Do you want to write the note or should I? Because Standard Equipment is basically "yes but actually no" with PCs, hence my suggestion for a note like that.

Its not overturning anything. Masters doesnt get to decide which protag is the canon counterpart, it follows its own interpretation. As with any other series that has different interpretations and canons, they go in a separate profiles

Idk how many times i gotta tell this to ppl but no matter how many times Sean had to keep coping to himself about that thread that Masters was 100% canon, and was telling everyone is now canon, it wasnt. The thread concludes that Masters content requires discussion to use, and was after the fact those profiles were made (and thats ignoring the fact people cant differentiate when people are writing a character to be faithful to their canon counterparts, not applying to their canon story). Its not Nintendo that decides its canon either way, its Gamefreak. Nintendo is the publisher.

I know they were made before the Masters canon thing, lady. Why do you think I specifically said yes to the name change? Just use Masters as the Secondary Canon it is, it's really not hard to make the distinction between something that's contradicted and something that isn't.

Also Sean was an eejit and got himself banned, and I specifically pushed for secondary canon on his CRT, not full canon like he originally wanted.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

What's the consensus looking like here? I gave my piece earlier, but that was months ago.

 

[Jinx666]

Do you want to write the note or should I? Because Standard Equipment is basically "yes but actually no" with PCs, hence my suggestion for a note like that.

I mean the thread needs to get passed first. The protagonist profiles either way should be converted to blogs until someone can fix it up to these standards. The Verse already deals with a ton of badly formatted profiles.

Just use Masters as the Secondary Canon it is, it's really not hard to make the distinction between something that's contradicted and something that isn't.

It is? Because its mixed in with a bunch of character/personality-based additions. You've got a mobile game that crosses over all the characters from after the events of their game (with timelines all jumbled and their own story events). Most of the character stuff is fine. but looking outwardly at all the Hoopa stuff they need to incorporate and the many, many contradictions to a 30 year+ mainline franchise in their unique storylines, then it isn't a cakewalk to understand the canon. You got about 10+ characters now who have been blessed by Arceus with a Sygna Suit that is all purely for selling gacha units.

The only thing we should be counting on masters for is character portrayal and ignoring trying to make every character scale to the Creation Trio or whatever bs Sean was trying to sell. And none of that is hardly relevant to their actual stats.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean the thread needs to get passed first. The protagonist profiles either way should be converted to blogs until someone can fix it up to these standards. The Verse already deals with a ton of badly formatted profiles.

Don't ya mean ancient profiles? Cause that's the leading problem with them. Not saying I disagree with that though.

It is? Because its mixed in with a bunch of character/personality-based additions. You've got a mobile game that crosses over all the characters from after the events of their game (with timelines all jumbled and their own story events). Most of the character stuff is fine. but looking outwardly at all the Hoopa stuff they need to incorporate and the many, many contradictions to a 30 year+ mainline franchise in their unique storylines, then it isn't a cakewalk to understand the canon. You got about 10+ characters now who have been blessed by Arceus with a Sygna Suit that is all purely for selling gacha units.

Okay so they have those in their optional equipment? Like I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond with other than "Yeah treat it like this.", it's genuinely not hard to point at Masters and say "Secondary canon treat it like that", if they fight people who **** around with CT in the various stories, I guess they scale to the CT?

The only thing we should be counting on masters for is character portrayal and ignoring trying to make every character scale to the Creation Trio or whatever bs Sean was trying to sell. And none of that is hardly relevant to their actual stats.

I'm gonna be FR, I don't really care about the stats here, but yeah most post-game PCs fight legendaries or CT. At that point there's scaling, whether it's big number or small number depends on the legendaries, and we really shouldn't care beyond htat.

 

[Jinx666]

Don't ya mean ancient profiles? Cause that's the leading problem with them. Not saying I disagree with that though.

Well there are lots of untouched ancient profiles that havent even been updated since PLArceus, but the Protagonist profiles we got mainly. the rest should get that Outdated Tabber box but thats only reserved if people are making an effort to change them as opposed to just letting general traffic know we're aware the profiles are flawed.

Okay so they have those in their optional equipment? Like I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond with other than "Yeah treat it like this.", it's genuinely not hard to point at Masters and say "Secondary canon treat it like that", if they fight people who **** around with CT in the various stories, I guess they scale to the CT?

You said you agreed with my 3rd point with OP, which is treating all those variables as optional equipment and not standard. So if you agree now then?

Only people who directly fight the CT should scale at most (and even then theres a lot of game-mechanic related scaling, but theres at least arguments)

I'm gonna be FR, I don't really care about the stats here, but yeah most post-game PCs fight legendaries or CT. At that point there's scaling, whether it's big number or small number depends on the legendaries, and we really shouldn't care beyond htat.

Cool but thats all the player fighting these beings, and just because they can fight some people in the postgame (whose game 'levels' are superior to that of the legendaries, or they're post-fighting the box legends before the 8th gym) doesnt mean they all scale to that level. Thats literally what the latter of Sean's profiles kept trying to claim and say, and it was being allowed for whatever reason.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well there are lots of untouched ancient profiles that havent even been updated since PLArceus, but the Protagonist profiles we got mainly. the rest should get that Outdated Tabber box but thats only reserved if people are making an effort to change them as opposed to just letting general traffic know we're aware the profiles are flawed.

Your call on that.

You said you agreed with my 3rd point with OP, which is treating it as optional equipment and not standard. So if you agree now then?

Yeah Masters can be optional sure.

Only people who directly fight the CT should scale at most (and even then theres a lot of game-mechanic related scaling, but theres at least arguments)

Cool but thats all the player fighting these beings, and just because they can fight some people in the postgame (whose game 'levels' are superior to that of the legendaries, or they're post-fighting the box legends before the 8th gym) doesnt mean they all scale to that level. Thats literally what the latter of Sean's profiles kept trying to claim and say, and it was being allowed for whatever reason.

You didn't convince me the other 15 times ya said this in a different way this thread. Like I said, it was solved in the first 3 pages, including this argument.

 

[Jinx666]

You didn't convince me the other 15 times ya said this in a different way this thread. Like I said, it was solved in the first 3 pages, including this argument.

So what, you think every trainer/pokemon that has a higher in-game base level should be scaled above the Creation Trio or something??? Im not tryna convince you of anything, its just blatantly obvious that game level isnt representative of their in-lore power, and just cause the player gets an option of fighting them after 'catching/beating' a legendary doesnt mean they scale to the in-lore power.

Its literally confirmed that the creation trio are also surpressed/weaker while theyre captured in pokeballs. Its the entire point of the red chain

 

[DaReaperMan]

So what, you think every trainer/pokemon that has a higher in-game base level should be scaled above the Creation Trio or something??? Im not tryna convince you of anything, its just blatantly obvious that game level isnt representative of their in-lore power, and just cause the player gets an option of fighting them after 'catching/beating' a legendary doesnt mean they scale to the in-lore power.

Its literally confirmed that the creation trio are also surpressed/weaker while theyre captured in pokeballs. Its the entire point of the red chain

Mate levels don't matter but in basically every game since 4th generation theres been ways to get the CT either post-game or in the main story, so yeah, most of the post-game folks are gonna be scaling to the bullshit of CT. That isn't a problem.

 

[Jinx666]

Mate levels don't matter but in basically every game since 4th generation theres been ways to get the CT either post-game or in the main story, so yeah, most of the post-game folks are gonna be scaling to the bullshit of CT. That isn't a problem.

So you think just because someone can fight/catch the Creation Trio in a post-game (Top Tier legendaries in-lore) and can use them against post-game characters with no actual in-lore indication that they're a challenge or a struggle, that they should all scale? Unless theres an actual ante or power progression in these post-game stories that involve the CT specifically (not just including them to fill a quota, since it'd be a stupid decision not to let people access these pokemon outside their game), then no i dont see why we should be scaling people to a composited (this wiki composites the heck out of the CT from games such as Mystery Dungeon) CT just cause the player character has options to fight them.

Even stuff like Wild Pokemon that you can catch that are beyond the level 45-50 the CT are put at?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So you think just because someone can fight/catch the Creation Trio in a post-game (Top Tier legendaries in-lore) and can use them against post-game characters with no actual in-lore indication that they're a challenge or a struggle, that they should all scale? Unless theres an actual ante or power progression in these post-game stories that involve the CT specifically (not just including them to fill a quota, since it'd be a stupid decision not to let people access these pokemon outside their game), then no i dont see why we should be scaling people to a composited (this wiki composites the heck out of the CT from games such as Mystery Dungeon) CT just cause the player character has options to fight them.

Even stuff like Wild Pokemon that you can catch that are beyond the level 45-50 the CT are put at?

sigh.

Do you have a new point, or are you going to repeat the same stuff said in the first 3 pages some more?

 

[Jinx666]

sigh.

Do you have a new point, or are you going to repeat the same stuff said in the first 3 pages some more?

Can you answer or not?

You keep claiming stuff like you aren't following the level-logic yet you think that because standard game progression takes place after the main story, then people just scale to the Creation Trios full composited power no problem. Are the game mechanic/stats linear to their in-lore power or not?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can you answer or not?

Other people answered this exact cookie cutter point. And I agree with those answers. Alright?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Let's all try to keep discussions here civil, okay?

 

[Jinx666]

Other people answered this exact cookie cutter point. And I agree with those answers. Alright?

Answer please, im not sure i recall the arguments from the first few pages. IF you're so sure that this was solved in the first few pages, then you should be able to recall what those arguments are surely?

Last i checked the main pushback arguments were from Sean, so do you agree with him or not?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Answer please, im not sure i recall the arguments from the first few pages. IF you're so sure that this was solved in the first few pages, then you should be able to recall what those arguments are surely?

Last i checked the main pushback arguments were from Sean, so do you agree with him or not?

I don't feel like parroting someone else's points. But no, on that it wasn't Sean, he came in page 3, and the pages starring him are page 4 onward. Lou, Bobsican, XSOULOFCINDERX, KLOL, etcetera are whom I agree with and they were mainly active pages 1-3. As usual with the Sean debacle I'm firmly between you both.

 

[Jinx666]

I don't feel like parroting someone else's points. But no, on that it wasn't Sean, he came in page 3, and the pages starring him are page 4 onward. Lou, Bobsican, XSOULOFCINDERX, KLOL, etcetera are whom I agree with and they were mainly active pages 1-3. As usual with the Sean debacle I'm firmly between you both.

So you cant answer despite being so sure of these points being 'solved'. Yeah i get it.

None of these people have points against the OP beyond the 3rd (where you've already said to make stuff optional), the whole thread derailed to something the OP wasn't even suggesting so... you dont need to force yourself to answer

 

[DaReaperMan]

So you cant answer despite being so sure of these points being 'solved'. Yeah i get it.

None of these people have points against the OP, the whole thread derailed to something the OP wasn't even suggesting so...

I'm sorry I don't feel like entering the forever debate with someone I know for a fact is a major stonewall, Jinx.

 

[Jinx666]

I'm sorry I don't feel like entering the forever debate with someone I know for a fact is a major stonewall, Jinx.

You quite literally came into this thread to re-iterate your usual tired stances. Trust me, im not sitting here anticipate what the reaper guy is gonna say, id rather just not see your messages ever again like it used to be.

If you aren't confident enough to reiterate these imaginary arguments you're claiming has 'solved the thread', then dont bother replying. You can leave the thread at any time. Im not a stonewall cause you cba to state these arguments you 'agree with', im here for an actual discussion

I went over why the protagonist pages right now are super biased to one noncanon/secondary canon interpretation that goes against the mainline (which you claim to be against), and why the standards for them should be different as opposed to Sean making whoever he likes more the 'canon protag'. They've been left as is for year(s) cause no one gives af about the quality of this verse. Affirm what you have against that (cause nothing was decided otherwise). Otherwise leave.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You quite literally came into this thread to re-iterate your usual tired stances. Trust me, im not sitting here anticipate what the reaper guy is gonna say, id rather just not see your messages ever again like it used to be.

If you aren't confident enough to reiterate these imaginary arguments you're claiming has 'solved the thread', then dont bother replying. You can leave the thread at any time. Im not a stonewall cause you cba to state these arguments you 'agree with', im here for an actual discussion

I went over why the protagonist pages right now are super biased to one noncanon/secondary canon interpretation that goes against the mainline (which you claim to be against), and why the standards for them should be different as opposed to Sean making whoever he likes more the 'canon protag'. They've been left as is for year(s) cause no one gives af about the quality of this verse. Affirm what you have against that (cause nothing was decided otherwise). Otherwise leave.

Jinx, listen. You are stubborn. You have your views on this, and those views ain't gonna change. I mean, they didn't across 8 pages, why would they across 9 arguing with someone you don't like to begin with? I made my points, pointed to who I agreed with since I really don't feel like regurgitating points to someone I know won't bite, and you're not required to agree with me or even count my vote since I'm not evaluation staff.

And that's the beautiful thing, you know? There isn't any 100% right answer. You're not necessarily wrong, I just don't agree with you(on this), and I ain't necessarily wrong, you just don't agree with me. Agree to disagree, let's move on, yeah?

 

[Jinx666]

If you cant back your points and dont have anything to say just leave lmao. The people you 'pointed to' havent said anything against the OP and were talking about something unrelated. so i already know what this is all about and why you're here.
Im not seeking your opinion specifically so just leave if its that much of a struggle for you, i dont need you to try and mansplain what 'not agreeing with me' is otherwise, i can very much tell

 

[Random-Helper323]

Let's not get into this any further. Can I ask everyone to not go there, please?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I'm unsure what the current proposals are. Can anyone summarize?

I fully intend to rework at least one protagonist page (HGSS Ethan/Lyra). I'm capable and willing to do all the hard work that comes with adding every available Pokemon. I intended to do my own CRT, but I guess I need to wait for this one to reach a conclusion first

 

[Jinx666]

I'm unsure what the current proposals are. Can anyone summarize?

I fully intend to rework at least one protagonist page (HGSS Ethan/Lyra). I'm capable and willing to do all the hard work that comes with adding every available Pokemon. I intended to do my own CRT, but I guess I need to wait for this one to reach a conclusion first

Well atp what im thinking is

A) We move all the current protagonist profiles we have to blogs for people to rework if they want.
B) We enforce the standards of how to make these protagonist profiles as more player characters, as opposed to making assumptions (like Sean did) as to which one is 'canon' or what exact Pokemon they have.
C) We stick to confirmed storybeats for any actual feats, but every other variable such as the range of Pokemon (imo, the games main dex and not including National Dex mons you require global trade for) is treated optionally (so still on the profile)
D) We rename them to something like 'Player (pokemongamename)' or 'Pokemon Trainer (pokemongamename)' (and we can make a redirect link for their canon names), just since they are more player characters. If we need them ofc.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Well atp what im thinking is

A) We move all the current protagonist profiles we have to blogs for people to rework if they want.
B) We enforce the standards of how to make these protagonist profiles as more player characters, as opposed to making assumptions (like Sean did) as to which one is 'canon' or what exact Pokemon they have.
C) We stick to confirmed storybeats for any actual feats, but every other variable such as the range of Pokemon (imo, the games main dex and not including National Dex mons you require global trade for) is treated optionally (so still on the profile)
D) We rename them to something like 'Player (pokemongamename)' or 'Pokemon Trainer (pokemongamename)' (and we can make a redirect link for their canon names), just since they are more player characters. If we need them ofc.

This sounds pretty good to me

I'd personally be fine with removing restrictions on NatDex but I don't wanna sully a compromise lol

 

[Jinx666]

I mean i'd only really give them NatDex mons they have a way to obtain within the region outside of trading other players (in lore context, it doesnt really work). We'd also fall into the fact that every Pokemon Trainer would just be the same as the prior but with an entire extra region of pokemon. Not to mention stufff like Arceus drastically change the stats when in literally any game before PLArceus he wasnt even legally obtainable