(Staff Needed) Bleach Extrasensorial Perception Layers

[ItsMeat]

Hello, everybody, hope you have a nice day, now, following the ridiculous amount of recent Bleach downgrade threads, a small upgrade one comes too

First, we need to establish the mechanics of Extrasensory Perception in Bleach. The sense of sight is mainly based on Reikaku, the spiritual perception, which is interwinded with vision and it even fully replaces it during combat. In fact, even extremely weak spiritual perception allows one to see something even when they are blind. More skilled and powerful Reikaku users can perfectly see colors and all the rest. As such, every time something is imperceivable for Bleach characters, it's so because it also resists their spiritual perception, not only because it's invisible.

So here are the layers and the resistances:​

Spoiler: Baseline

Characters that can perceive souls, which are invisible to normal humans. This includes humans that are barely spiritually aware, such as chapter 1 Yuzu and kid Ichigo.

Hollows are invisible for them, which grants them Baseline Resistance.

Spoiler: First Layer

Low tier Soul Reapers and other average spiritual entities, as well as truly gifted humans are able to perceive Hollows, granting them 1 layer. This includes chapter 1 Ichigo and Karin.

Spiritual Ribbons are invisible to such beings, which grants them 1 layer of Resistance.

Spoiler: Second Layer

Skilled(some low and all high tier) Soul Reapers, as well as other skilled spiritually aware beings are able to perceive Spiritual Ribbons, giving them 2 layers. This includes chapter 35 Uryu.

Orihime with this bracelet is imperceivable even for them, giving her 2 layers of Resistance.

Spoiler: Third Layer

Arrancars are able to perceive Orihime although she's invisible even for skilled Soul Reapers, giving them 3 layers.

Certain techniques such as Sonido are accepted to hide you even from an Arrancar's spiritual perception, giving their users 3 layers of Resistance.

Spoiler: Fourth Layer, Transcendent Tier

Characters on this level of existence have completely transcended Soul Reaper and Hollow races, which would also include Arrancars. At this point, the only ones able to sense their spiritual energy are those on the same level as them, which gives them at least 3 Layers of Resistance to Extrasensory Perception.

Also, due to the fact only transcendentals can sense each other's spiritual energy, they get 4 Layers of Extrasensory Perception.

Spoiler: Fifth Layer, Deicide Ichigo

Deicide Ichigo gets 4 layers of Resistance due to Transcendent Aizen being unable to sense his reiatsu.

Also, he should get 5 layers of Extrasensorial Perception as he should be able to sense beings on the same level as him.

Agree:​

@AyOgUyS @Saqphire @Hecky2222 @TheDeadman21 @Robo432343 @FARLANDER3305 @RaikiKurohane99

Disagree:​

 

[AyOgUyS]

Looks good at a glance.

 

[Saqphire]

Agree with everything, good stuff

 

[Hecky2222]

Who tf needs EP layers bro

This is fine

 

[TheDeadman21]

Agree with everything

 

[Robo432343]

soul crush layers when

agree

 

[FARLANDER3305]

Looks good
Agreed

 

[Mommyleona]

Arrancars are able to perceive Orihime although she's invisible even for skilled Soul Reapers, giving them 3 layers.

Are we sure the bracelet doesn't just specifically make an exception for Arrancars to see her, and not that Arrancars have an even better perception than Soul Reapers?

Otherwise yeah I agree

 

[ItsMeat]

Are we sure the bracelet doesn't just specifically make an exception for Arrancars to see her, and not that Arrancars have an even better perception than Soul Reapers?

Don't you think Aizen would want to be able to perceive Orihime too, if he had a choice? Kidnapping Orihime, yet allowing her to say goodbye to one person(this implies the usage of the bracelet) was Aizen's plan. However, we only know about Arrancars being able to perceive her when she wears it. Not about Aizen.

Also, the entire narrative portrayal of Arrancars is that of beings that surprass Soul Reapers as an evolved form of Hollows.

Moreover, when Zaraki went full power on Cien in SAFWY, after hours of fighting, Azashiro couldn't sense his reiatsu anymore, but Cien didn't encounter this problem.

So yeah, it most definetely isn't a mechanism that makes an exception only for Arrancars

Otherwise yeah I agree

 

[Random-Helper323]

Characters that can perceive souls, which are invisible to normal humans. This includes humans that are barely spiritually aware.

This is fine.

Hollows are invisible for them, which grants them Baseline Resistance.
Low tier Soul Reapers and other average spiritual entities, as well as truly gifted humans are able to perceive Hollows, granting them 1 layer. This includes chapter 1 Ichigo and Karin.

I'm sorry, this seems to be using Substitute Arc Chad and Yuzu, who I seem to recall can't see spirits, as the basis. Grand Fisher I'm unsure of. The scan makes it seem like Yuzu can see the ghost, but I'm sure I remember her saying she senses them but can't see them.

Spiritual Ribbons are invisible to such beings, which grants them 1 layer of Resistance.
Skilled(some low and all high tier) Soul Reapers, as well as other skilled spiritually aware beings are able to perceive Spiritual Ribbons, giving them 2 layers. This includes chapter 35 Uryu.

This seemed to involve focus more than resistance. Ichigo needed to focus to see them later too, after all.

Orihime with this bracelet is imperceivable even for them, giving her 2 layers of Resistance.
Arrancars are able to perceive Orihime although she's invisible even for skilled Soul Reapers, giving them 3 layers.

This is weird, both because it doesn't seem like an Arrancar like Menoly should have more of this ability than someone like Shunsui, and also because that bracelet strikes me as more than invisibility given that she can pass through things. I also don't recall that invisibility being tested on anyone but normal humans.

Certain techniques such as Sonido are accepted to hide you even from an Arrancar's spiritual perception, giving their users 3 layers of Resistance.

Sonido seems to conceal movement and only briefly conceal presence, but I suppose it counts as resistance to the perception. Given there's no feat of anyone sensing someone through it though, I'd hesitate to place anyone above it anyway.

Characters on this level of existence have completely transcended Soul Reaper and Hollow races, which would also include Arrancars. At this point, the only ones able to sense their spiritual energy are those on the same level as them, which gives them at least 3 Layers of Resistance to Extrasensory Perception.
Also, due to the fact only transcendentals can sense each other's spiritual energy, they get 4 Layers of Extrasensory Perception.

Was this resistance though? The story seemed to treat it as the power being too large to comprehend.

Deicide Ichigo gets 4 layers of Resistance due to Transcendent Aizen being unable to sense his reiatsu.

Also, he should get 5 layers of Extrasensorial Perception as he should be able to sense beings on the same level as him.

Same as previous.

 

[ItsMeat]

I don't know if Orihime's bracelet should be counted as a layer here.

Hmmm, why?

I'm sorry, this seems to be using Substitute Arc Chad and Yuzu, who I seem to recall can't see spirits, as the basis. Grand Fisher I'm unsure of. The scan makes it seem like Yuzu can see the ghost, but I'm sure I remember her saying she senses them but can't see them.

Yuzu was literally shown seeing a spirit in chapter 1, scan that I linked here:

Spoiler: Baseline

Characters that can perceive souls, which are invisible to normal humans. This includes humans that are barely spiritually aware, such as chapter 1 Yuzu and kid Ichigo.

Section that you just said is fine…
And no, she's never stated to be unable to see ghosts, at least not in the manga

This seemed to involve focus more than resistance. Ichigo needed to focus to see them later too, after all.

Still, only a seasoned Soul Reaper and similarly skilled characters can see them. And they can be seen instantly by decently skilled people(reffer to the Uryu scan in the same link)

Also, the wiki already accepts them as being more invisible than normally invisible stuff like Ghosts + Spiritual entities that can see them are also already accepted as having "Enhanced Perception"(since you can't have "Layered Perception"), but due to the stuff about Reikaku, they should get Layered Extrasensorial Perception.

This is weird, both because it doesn't seem like an Arrancar like Menoly should have more of this ability than someone like Shunsui, and also because that bracelet strikes me as more than invisibility given that she can pass through things. I also don't recall that invisibility being tested on anyone but normal humans.

She's not the first Spiritual Entity to pass through things…
Also, there's no reason for the explicit statement it has and the narrative role it serves to be questioned without a feat. You could say she has the feat of no shinigami noticing her presence in karakura when she was wearing the bracelet.
And reffer to what I told to Leona

Sonido seems to conceal movement and only briefly conceal presence, but I suppose it counts as resistance to the perception.

It's already accepted as such.

Given there's no feat of anyone sensing someone through it though, I'd hesitate to place anyone above it anyway.

There are feats of certain people(transcendentals) sensing other things that have at least as much resistance as it.

Was this resistance though? The story seemed to treat it as the power being too large to comprehend.

The story explicitly portrays it as quality based, not quantity based. Unless you wanna say 2nd Fusion Aizen is stronger than people like True Shikai Ichigo, or Vollstanding Uryu, which goes against our wiki's accepted chain.

Moreover, Ichigo was able to sense 2nd Fusion Aizen's reiatsu (a form previous to him completely transcending hollows and shinigami in his 4th fusion), but Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi (who are portrayed as stronger than FKT Ichigo) couldn't. Ig this also serves to prove fusions between Shinigami and Hollows have better senses than Shinigami, further supporting the Arrancar part.

Same as previous.

Ig I adressed this "previous", but to add more, no, it's not about being overwhelmingly stronger:

5th fusion Aizen couldn't sense Dangai Ichigo's reiatsu, yet a casual blast from him already injuried his arm so hard it rendered it useless. Since durability>=passive reiatsu via in-verse law and characters do sense the passive reiatsu, Aizen should've been able to sense Ichigo without much trouble. Yet, he couldn't. Reason? Ichigo was on another plane. Not another level of power.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Keep in mind this is all Potency-Based too

 

[ItsMeat]

Keep in mind this is all Potency-Based too

Not sure I get what you're saying…

 

[Apotheosis69]

Not sure I get what you're saying…

Its based on Potency of the individual.

If their opponent, is farrr weaker than a Soul Reaper here, whom say is Transcendent (4 Layers). Even if they have like 20 Layers of Extrasensory Perception, then it doesn't matter, because its all based on the Potency between the two.

But if someone is on the same level as that Transcendent character, so long as they have Soul Vision (as well that's the inherent nature of Souls in Bleach) they can sense them, that's how the Transcendence works in Bleach.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't get why is the transcendent stuff included here.
All previous layers focus on regular sight specifically while the transcended stuff is about the 6th sense for reiatsu.

People who aren't transcended still SEE Aizen and Ichigo so why would their reiatsu being hidden scale above the layers of their sight? They're both extrasensory perception, sure, but that doesn't make them mutually interchangeable when they're different senses.

Same issue with sonido. The scan explicitly talks about reiatsu sensing being distorted, not sight. So why are we scaling it above sight layers?

 

[ItsMeat]

Its based on Potency of the individual.

If their opponent, is farrr weaker than a Soul Reaper here, whom say is Transcendent (4 Layers). Even if they have like 20 Layers of Extrasensory Perception, then it doesn't matter, because its all based on the Potency between the two.

But if someone is on the same level as that Transcendent character, so long as they have Soul Vision (as well that's the inherent nature of Souls in Bleach) they can sense them, that's how the Transcendence works in Bleach.

So… you're suggesting it's ap based?
Because this is pretty much not how it works at all, nor was it portrayed to be as such.

Sure, skilled characters are generally stronger, but that's due to training and sure, quantity of reirioku plays a factor regarding whether humans can see Hollows or not, but those humans generally have equal normal stats. Chapter 9 Chad is way stronger than Chapter 1 Karin, yet he can't see Hollows.

Similarly, transcendentals are generally extremely powerful, but that's because the only characters who achieved transcendence are the god tiers. People that should be on par with them stats wise still have no feat or implication of being able to sense their energy, such as Vollstanding Uryu who has 0 feats of sensing transcendent reiatsu.

As for the far weaker but 20 layers of extrasensory perception… at such a gap, perceiving the reiatsu is the last thing to worry about. Not to mention that ik you're exaggerating, but there isn't any weak character with an impressive number of layers to this ability.

Also, FKT Ichigo perceiving evolved Aizen's reiatsu despite Isshin and the others being unable to, although Isshin is stronger than that Ichigo, serves as further proof it's not power based at all

 

[ItsMeat]

I don't get why is the transcendent stuff included here.
All previous layers focus on regular sight specifically while the transcended stuff is about the 6th sense for reiatsu.

The 6th sense is interwinded with vision.

People who aren't transcended still SEE Aizen and Ichigo so why would their reiatsu being hidden scale above the layers of their sight?

Because sight is also vision based? Are you suggesting they are blind? Sure, they see them when they are not fighting at all. Sometimes, they even see them in a fight. But every time a non transcendent character sees a trascendent figth, we have a simple reason why they did so. Uryu shots Yhwach who was standing in the air, Orihime blocks an attack from Yhwach whose aim she knew, putting a wall between a projectile whose trajectory you know and it's target isn't hard, whether you can see the projectile or not, etc.

They're both extrasensory perception, sure, but that doesn't make them mutually interchangeable when they're different senses.

It's the same sense of reiatsu, that's the reason why pulling a Hit style technique (leaving your reiatsu behind) works as a visual illusion in the first place...

Same issue with sonido. The scan explicitly talks about reiatsu sensing being distorted, not sight. So why are we scaling it above sight layers?

Sonido is a high speed movement technique which already renders vision mostly useless... Reffer to Yoruichi rescuing Ichigo from Byakuya for these techniques tricking the eye.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The 6th sense is interwinded with vision.

That doesn't matter. The sheer fact transcendent beings can be seen but not sensed tells us there's a large enough separation to not consider them as interchangeable.

Because sight is also vision based? Are you suggesting they are blind?

Huh? No? I'm saying the exact opposite.

The first 2 layers are about characters seeing or not seeing someone. Then suddenly sonido and transcendent characters are trying to piggyback off of them despite being strictly about sensing alone and transcendents even being blatantly visible.

It's the same sense of reiatsu, that's the reason why pulling a Hit style technique (leaving your reiatsu behind) works as a visual illusion in the first place...

They're not the same. At least not in the way that matters for this.

It's like having 2 sets of eyes, one that sees light normally and one that sees heat instead. Just because something can counter the sight of one pair doesn't necessarily mean it can counter the second pair as well.

Again this is literally proven by the fact that transcended beings can be seen but not sensed.

Sonido is a high speed movement technique which already renders vision mostly useless... Reffer to Yoruichi rescuing Ichigo from Byakuya for these techniques tricking the eye.

There's a difference between bypassing eyesight by being too fast and by being invisible.

Nothing about sonido implies the user literally becomes invisible to regular eyes, only unsensable with reiatsu sensing and very fast.

 

[ItsMeat]

That doesn't matter. The sheer fact transcendent beings can be seen but not sensed tells us there's a large enough separation to not consider them as interchangeable.

Huh? No? I'm saying the exact opposite.

The first 2 layers are about characters seeing or not seeing someone. Then suddenly sonido and transcendent characters are trying to piggyback off of them despite being strictly about sensing alone and transcendents even being blatantly visible.

They're not the same. At least not in the way that matters for this.

It's like having 2 sets of eyes, one that sees light normally and one that sees heat instead. Just because something can counter the sight of one pair doesn't necessarily mean it can counter the second pair as well.

Again this is literally proven by the fact that transcended beings can be seen but not sensed.

There's a difference between bypassing eyesight by being too fast and by being invisible.

Nothing about sonido implies the user literally becomes invisible to regular eyes, only unsensable with reiatsu sensing and very fast.

OK, you seem to have a crucial misunderstanding:

Universal truth: Sight is made of Vision + Reikaku

Thus, if you can't see something, it means both your eyes and your Reikaku are unable to perceive it. In simple terms, for sight (vision & reikaku) to return 0, you need each individual return to be 0.

However, this does not mean that when one of them returns 0, the other must automatically do the same. They are different senses after all. You have an example in the OP where Ichigo was blinded by Ginjo who cut his eyes, yet he could still see Ginjo's reiatsu. And also in the OP you have Isshin and Urahara not sensing Aizen's reiatsu although they could still see him ( And yes, Isshin says that "It's almost like Aizen isn't even there", showing the fact he can only partially see him, via his eyes)

To use your analogy and words:

It's like having 2 sets of eyes, one that sees light normally and one that sees heat instead. Just because something can counter the sight of one pair doesn't necessarily mean it can counter the second pair as well.

Exactly this. Just because Transcendentals or Sonido can't be sensed by Reikaku, it doesn't mean they can't be seen.

Tl;dr: The result, sight, is dependent on both eyes and Reikaku. However, they are independent from each other.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

The proposals make sense to me

 

[ItsMeat]

The proposals make sense to me

How many staff agreements do I need for something so minor? P sure it was 2, but idk

 

[Hecky2222]

How many staff agreements do I need for something so minor? P sure it was 2, but idk

Raiki is TL member so you another TM mod to get it accepted except Random Helper

You had to make sure if he changed his position after arguments made. Also you can request Raiki or Random Helper to pin some staff for your thread

Snip

 

[ItsMeat]

Raiki is TL member so you another TM mod to get it accepted except Random Helper

You had to make sure if he changed his position after arguments made. Also you can request Raiki or Random Helper to pin some staff for your thread

I see.

Well, since you already tagged him via quote manipulation type 2, @Random-Helper323 (yes, ik, I can't tag you this way), did you change your position?
Also, could you tag other staff members

 

[Random-Helper323]

I see.

Well, since you already tagged him via quote manipulation type 2, @Random-Helper323 (yes, ik, I can't tag you this way), did you change your position?
Also, could you tag other staff members

I'm not sure I'd consider layers, especially this many, to be minor. It's probably best to get more than two approvals.

As for my thoughts, this string of layers is combining the ability to see spirits with the ability to sense spirit energy, and has some layers for seeing spirits and others for sensing energy or not being able to sense it. This probably shouldn't all be combined into one.

As for the individual layers, I'm fine with Hollows being slightly harder to see than normal spirits, since that's shown. I find spirit ribbons and Orihime's bracelet far too uncertain, due to the ribbons being a focus based thing and Orihime's bracelet being untested against anyone but normal humans. I even seem to recall Tatsuki could still partly sense her, and she left spirit energy behind that could be read even while wearing it. The transcendence that makes their energy undetectable and also the Sonido are a different matter from seeing the person or not, so I'm leaning towards separating them as a different thing, since sensing the energy and seeing the entity are clearly not a 1:1. The fact no-one senses anyone through a Sonido also leads me to think it shouldn't be stacked with transcendence to support layers.

I can ping some staff though.

@Reiner04 @DarkDragonMedeus @Imaginym what do you think here?

 

[ItsMeat]

I'm not sure I'd consider layers, especially this many, to be minor. It's probably best to get more than two approvals.

It's a nearly useless ability, but if you say so, sure.

As for my thoughts, this string of layers is combining the ability to see spirits with the ability to sense spirit energy, and has some layers for seeing spirits and others for sensing energy or not being able to sense it. This probably shouldn't all be combined into one.

As for the individual layers, I'm fine with Hollows being slightly harder to see than normal spirits, since that's shown. I find spirit ribbons and Orihime's bracelet far too uncertain, due to the ribbons being a focus based thing and Orihime's bracelet being untested against anyone but normal humans. I even seem to recall Tatsuki could still partly sense her, and she left spirit energy behind that could be read even while wearing it. The transcendence that makes their energy undetectable and also the Sonido are a different matter from seeing the person or not, so I'm leaning towards separating them as a different thing, since sensing the energy and seeing the entity are clearly not a 1:1. The fact no-one senses anyone through a Sonido also leads me to think it shouldn't be stacked with transcendence to support layers.

I can ping some staff though.

@Reiner04 @DarkDragonMedeus @Imaginym what do you think here?

Is this your final position? Because I'd like to adress some points:

As for my thoughts, this string of layers is combining the ability to see spirits with the ability to sense spirit energy, and has some layers for seeing spirits and others for sensing energy or not being able to sense it. This probably shouldn't all be combined into one.

That's because sight=vision+reikaku
If something can't be seen, it's both invisible and resistant to extrasensory perception. However, resisting extrasensory perception doesn't automatically imply you must be invisible. This CRT is strictly about extrasensory perception.

I find spirit ribbons and Orihime's bracelet far too uncertain, due to the ribbons being a focus based thing

According to Uryu, every skilled soul reaper can see them instantly… Also, it's not like people don't focus in battles…
Plus that whether they focus or not, not all Soul Reapers can see them anyway, despite the fact they do see Hollows.

and Orihime's bracelet being untested against anyone but normal humans.

It's not tested against anyone… You can also say no Soul Reaper felt her presence in Karakura…

I even seem to recall Tatsuki could still partly sense her,

That never happens… chapter 238 if you wanna check.

and she left spirit energy behind that could be read even while wearing it.

Yes, traces of even Transcendent Reiatsu can be sensed by Shinigami, despite their inability to perceive the character himself via reikaku. This doesn't say anything other than the fact they do have a weakness, but that's unrelated to the layers, which are solid. Also, Ichigo (a fusion between Shinigami and Hollow, just like Arrancars) is the only one who sensed Orihime's reiatsu.

The transcendence that makes their energy undetectable and also the Sonido are a different matter from seeing the person or not, so I'm leaning towards separating them as a different thing, since sensing the energy and seeing the entity are clearly not a 1:1.

Same thing I explained above. Reffer to my answer to David.

The fact no-one senses anyone through a Sonido also leads me to think it shouldn't be stacked with transcendence to support layers.

Sonido isn't stacked with transcendence to support layers, the Sonido chain stops right there.
And Sonido was never used against a transcendental or when a transcendental was around to infer from that that transcendentals cannot sense someone using Sonido. If you wanna suggest 1 or 2 extra layers of Resistance for Sonido, sure, but it isn't supported by anything.

I can ping some staff though.

@Reiner04 @DarkDragonMedeus @Imaginym what do you think here?

Thanks

 

[ItsMeat]

Bump ig

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Agree with everything but neutral on transcendent stuff as of now

 

[KingTempest]

I hold a similar viewpoint to Random outside of the transcendence. They definitely have resistance

 

[Random-Helper323]

Transcendence getting resistance to being sensed is fine, I just don't see it stacking with Sonido when no-one is shown sensing someone through Sonido, and I also don't think it should be stacked alongside the basic invisibility since it implies someone needs multiple layers of the ability to see spirits in order to see a transcendent, when we see that isn't the case.

 

[KingTempest]

in that i can agree

 

[ItsMeat]

Transcendence getting resistance to being sensed is fine, I just don't see it stacking with Sonido when no-one is shown sensing someone through Sonido,

Sonido lacks feats of resisting anything higher, therefore it'd be a NLF to scale it above things like transcendence.

and I also don't think it should be stacked alongside the basic invisibility since it implies someone needs multiple layers of the ability to see spirits in order to see a transcendent, when we see that isn't the case.

That is not true at all, as already explained in this thread, the ability to perceive spirits with your eyes is independent of Reikaku, although at least one of them is needed in order to see them.

As such, when a Bleach character really can't see you, it's because you have both
Invisibility and resistance to Extrasensorial Perception

However

You don't need Enhanced Perception to perceive something that only has Resistance to Extrasensorial Perception. Transcendentals are the perfect example.

I hold a similar viewpoint to Random outside of the transcendence. They definitely have resistance

Could you please make a more detailed summary( something like:
"3 Layers of Resistance via Transcendence: Agree from me, Disagree from Random Helper
4 Layers of Resistance for Deicide Ichigo: Disagree from both me and Random Helper"
would be perfect), because at this point I'm not sure on what exactly is his opinion and you seem to get it, as well as have a slightly different opinion

 

[KingTempest]

Sonido lacks feats of resisting anything higher, therefore it'd be a NLF to scale it above things like transcendence.

That is not true at all, as already explained in this thread, the ability to perceive spirits with your eyes is independent of Reikaku, although at least one of them is needed in order to see them.

As such, when a Bleach character really can't see you, it's because you have both
Invisibility and resistance to Extrasensorial Perception

However

You don't need Enhanced Perception to perceive something that only has Resistance to Extrasensorial Perception. Transcendentals are the perfect example.


Could you please make a more detailed summary( something like:
"3 Layers of Resistance via Transcendence: Agree from me, Disagree from Random Helper
4 Layers of Resistance for Deicide Ichigo: Disagree from both me and Random Helper"
would be perfect), because at this point I'm not sure on what exactly is his opinion and you seem to get it, as well as have a slightly different opinion

Ping me again in a few hours

 

[ItsMeat]

Ping me again in a few hours

Thanks a lot

 

[KingTempest]

Nvm i'm here

Baseline is good
1st and 2nd Layer is good
I'm shaky on the arrancar alone membrane sight, not a fan
The sonido one is good
The transcendent one is good too
They can't cross over into each other. One is stealth mastery, hiding your presence, while the other is actually being so far above them in capabilities that you can't sense, like god Ki in DBS. They're different types of stacked resistances.
Ichigo scaling over the transcendent layer is fine as well.
So the layers up to the 2nd are valid, the 3rd i don't necessarily like, sonido and transcendent work but they can't scale through each other, and ichigo scaling over the transcendent is good

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Moreover, Ichigo was able to sense 2nd Fusion Aizen's reiatsuwho are portrayed as stronger than FKT Ichigo) couldn't. Ig this also serves to prove fusions between Shinigami and Hollows have better senses than Shinigami, further supporting the Arrancar part.

The FKT Ichigo form that Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin are said to be stronger is the FKT Ichigo without the black eyes. Aizen's nerf likely decreased when he started to master his Hogyoku Fusion form. But yes, even while training in Dangai, he was initially nerfed to the point where he couldn't even focus on his own Zanpakuto.

Also, FKT Ichigo perceiving evolved Aizen's reiatsu despite Isshin and the others being unable to, although Isshin is stronger than that Ichigo, serves as further proof it's not power based at all

I explained it above.

The transcendence aspect is a very inconsistent one in Bleach as well. Isshin can't sense Aizen, but Byakuya could sense TS Ichigo. If you're going to say Byakuya sensed TS Ichigo because "Ichigo wasn't using his transcendence reiatsu at the time, he was holding back," then there's another contradiction: Gin sensing Mugetsu. In the novel "The Death Save The Strawberry," Rangiku tells Kira that Gin sensed Mugetsu before dying and therefore died hopefully. So, a character weaker than Pre-Hogyoku Aizen, like Gin, could sense Ichigo, who has a higher AP than the Soul King. Because of these kinds of situations, I disagree with the transcendence part.

The others look fine for now.

 

[ItsMeat]

The FKT Ichigo form that Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin are said to be stronger is the FKT Ichigo without the black eyes. Aizen's nerf likely decreased when he started to master his Hogyoku Fusion form. But yes, even while training in Dangai, he was initially nerfed to the point where he couldn't even focus on his own Zanpakuto.

This doesn't remotely change his nature as a hybrid. In fact, as we later learn, his shinigami power was mixed with his hollow power all along into White.

The transcendence aspect is a very inconsistent one in Bleach as well. Isshin can't sense Aizen, but Byakuya could sense TS Ichigo.

Rukia and a bunch of other characters could do it too. The reason is simple: TS Ichigo isn't transcendent.

If you're going to say Byakuya sensed TS Ichigo because "Ichigo wasn't using his transcendence reiatsu at the time, he was holding back,"

This could be argued too, but it doesn't make much sense for him to hold back to a degree where he's seriously endangered.

then there's another contradiction: Gin sensing Mugetsu. In the novel "The Death Save The Strawberry," Rangiku tells Kira that Gin sensed Mugetsu before dying and therefore died hopefully. So, a character weaker than Pre-Hogyoku Aizen, like Gin, could sense Ichigo, who has a higher AP than the Soul King. Because of these kinds of situations, I disagree with the transcendence part.

You literally made me read DSTS' English available translations and translate the raws myself with MTL for this and I haven't found such a statement. And yes, Gin knew Ichigo would win because of his gaze and he canonically died before Aizen even went to his 5th form.

Gin never sensed any transcendent reiatsu.
Also, ap is irrelevant here.

The others look fine for now.

Glad

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

You literally made me read DSTS' English available translations and translate the raws myself with MTL for this and I haven't found such a statement. And yes, Gin knew Ichigo would win because of his gaze and he canonically died before Aizen even went to his 5th form.

It is stated on page 37.

He probably meant Dangai when he said Mugetsu. There is no official name for the Dangai form. The reason we call it Dangai is because he obtained the form in Dangai.

TS Ichigo isn't transcendent.

We consider Hikone, who is weaker than TS Ichigo, to be transcendent, but...

This doesn't remotely change his nature as a hybrid. In fact, as we later learn, his shinigami power was mixed with his hollow power all along into White.

I don't think you understood what I was talking about. It was stated that the nerfed form of the character in FKT is weaker than Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin. Gin also emphasizes that he's already weakened.

 

[ItsMeat]

It is stated on page 37.

Holy Non Sequitur So, this is the quote from where you are infering that Gin sensed Ichigo's reiatsu, right?

The scan only says this: Gin died peacefully after he saw Ichigo who has learned Mugetsu. Nothing in this scan ever says anything about sensing his reiatsu. Gin simply saw that his eyes were different, thing I have already linked.

He probably meant Dangai when he said Mugetsu. There is no official name for the Dangai form. The reason we call it Dangai is because he obtained the form in Dangai.

Not at all and this isn't relevant anyway. He simply saw Ichigo and although he didn't know about Mugetsu, he realised based on his determined gaze that Ichigo achieved a new power to fight Aizen.

We consider Hikone, who is weaker than TS Ichigo, to be transcendent, but...

We don't consider Hikone transcendent and power quantity means nothing, transcendence is quality based. Unless you wanna say all characters above 2nd fusion Aizen are transcendent which is a baseless claim with tons of antifeats.

I don't think you understood what I was talking about. It was stated that the nerfed form of the character in FKT is weaker than Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin. Gin also emphasizes that he's already weakened.

Again, for like the 4th time already, quantity of power means nothing. This is a perfect example as a version of Ichigo weaker than Urahara and Isshin could sense 2nd fusion Aizen's reiatsu, but they (who were stronger than him) couldn't.

 

[Kazuma]

The sense of sight is mainly based on Reikaku, the spiritual perception, which is interwinded with vision and it even fully replaces it during combat.

I've got a question if it replaces in combat how does yamamoto still uses his eyes when he was fighting aizen.

 

[ItsMeat]

I've got a question if it replaces in combat how does yamamoto still uses his eyes when he was fighting aizen.

It's basically the same as DB characters subconsciously using ki sensing rather than their five senses when fighting at high speeds. However, they are standing here. And it's not that they can't see anymore, they just don't really rely on it and judge what happens around them mostly based on Reikaku. They can still use their other senses just fine.