Standard Format - Statistics Section Tabbers

[Agnaa]

As we've already been aware of for a while, tabbers don't work properly on mobile. The tabbers simply don't appear, and the content is shown in blocks after each other.

However, things get worse if you try to make a tabber of a multi-line sequence that doesn't utilise bullet points; the newlines within single tabbers aren't captured at all.

This looks utterly terrible.

Here's a screenshot of that on the standard format page, and here's a screenshot of that on an actual profile. If it's a section with bullet points (like the P&A), it looks fine.

Our standards on this are currently somewhat vague. Our Standard Format for Character Profiles page only discusses tabbers being used for images and in the P&A, but the Standard Format for Border Template page suggests using it for entire statistics sections.

I think the SFfBT page's example and description should be changed, to say that tabbers should only cover one statistic at a time (a different one would be needed for AP and LS, for example). And that the SFfCP page should have a line or two mentioning this, too.

 

[Agnaa]

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Just_a_Random_Butler @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Catzlaflame

 

[DontTalkDT]

In principle, that's fine. We should really design pages in a fashion usable on mobile and on desktop. So if people wish to use tabbers for stats, using them like this is likely the best option.

Given, I would personally encourage seeking other design options. One tabber per stat means you have to click on each stat once to see what you want, which is rather annoying.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, in principle being able to capture the whole statistics section would be nice in some cases (if the tabber has a border; if not, I think it causes too much confusion even on desktop).

But I would also point out that in most cases, most sections aren't long enough to need their own tabbers anyway. The most I can imagine is a page needing them for AP, Speed, LS, and Intelligence. But it's usually just two of those.

I'm fine with mentioning that alongside these changes; we already do so for tabbers:

Tabbers: Optional. If an Ability list becomes too extensive, the abilities can be separated into different tabs.

Although reading that, I realise that there are many pages which use that for small P&A sections; I should probably edit those out in the future...

...Although, those pages typically use that for characters with keys and a bullet-point format, which can only be represented this way, so maybe that exception should be written into that part as well?

 

[FinePoint]

Is it possible to have a page that's different on mobile versus desktop, or does Fandom itself entirely handle all of that?

 

[Agnaa]

Is it possible to have a page that's different on mobile versus desktop, or does Fandom itself entirely handle all of that?

It's probably technically possible, but I expect it would be a rather hacky solution that would occupy a lot of code on the page, and risk mistakes (if people only change one of them).

 

[FinePoint]

It's probably technically possible, but I expect it would be a rather hacky solution that would occupy a lot of code on the page, and risk mistakes (if people only change one of them).

Fair enough.

I suppose that leaves us no choice but to functionally ban the format if it completely breaks on mobile.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that tabbers often seem like the only available way to properly organise the information within our pages, and it is a problem with Fandom's page coding, not tabbers in themselves, although I repeatedly asked a Fandom staff member about this problem previously, and at the time they did not seem able to solve it.

I am not sure what is suggested as a realistic workable solution here in any case.

 

[Agnaa]

idk, I think my suggestion (different tabbers for each stat that needs it) would only fail in a few cases, and I think those cases can almost always be mitigated by cutting out fluff, and splitting into multiple pages if there's an excessive amount of keys.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

From my experience, almost anything is guaranteed to look ugly on mobile. I know it isn't helpful to say anything like that. Tabbers are also convenient if there's a lot of text as Antvasima laid out. Not sure what to do about the mobile related problems though.

 

[Antvasima]

idk, I think my suggestion (different tabbers for each stat that needs it) would only fail in a few cases

Please elaborate with your explanation.

and I think those cases can almost always be mitigated by cutting out fluff

Removing lots of valid information does not seem like a good solution.

and splitting into multiple pages if there's an excessive amount of keys.

I suppose that seems reasonable, yes.

 

[Agnaa]

Please elaborate with your explanation.

Currently, people use tabbers that encompass an arbitrary number of statistics (usually Attack Potency to Durability, but sometimes going down to Intelligence).

Instead, I'd require tabbers to only cover one statistic at most. If both Attack Potency and Speed need tabbers, they would each have their own separate ones, while the other statistics would be represented normally.

 

[Kaydee1648]

Instead of creating a separate tabber based solely on a statistics length, why not just insert a line or section break after each section using {{-}}?
It forces a new line that displays properly on mobile.
For example, here's a blog I made of this profile, and this is how it looks when the above line is applied (you can view the blog on mobile if its just me)

It reduces the visual clutter on mobile and, as far as my knowledge of wikitext goes, doesn’t create any formatting issues.

 

[Agnaa]

Instead of creating a separate tabber based solely on a statistics length, why not just insert a line or section break after each section using {{-}}?
It forces a new line that displays properly on mobile.
For example, here's a blog I made of this profile, and this is how it looks when the above line is applied (you can view the blog on mobile if its just me)

It reduces the visual clutter on mobile and, as far as my knowledge of wikitext goes, doesn’t create any formatting issues.

Oh damn I didn't know about that, that works!

Although, I do still think it is a bit more confusing on mobile (as there's no proper indication for why the statistics are repeating), and imo needs to have a border so people can properly see which part of the page the tabber covers on desktop.

I think we could leave that open as an option, but I would like to discourage it.

 

[Antvasima]

Currently, people use tabbers that encompass an arbitrary number of statistics (usually Attack Potency to Durability, but sometimes going down to Intelligence).

Instead, I'd require tabbers to only cover one statistic at most. If both Attack Potency and Speed need tabbers, they would each have their own separate ones, while the other statistics would be represented normally.

Hmm. I personally think that separate tabbers for each of the main statistic sections looks terrible in desktop mode, so I would personally prefer to avoid this solution, and it might be worth remembering mobile phone users can switch to desktop mode viewing as well if they click on a button at the bottom of a Fandom wiki page.

 

[Antvasima]

Instead of creating a separate tabber based solely on a statistics length, why not just insert a line or section break after each section using {{-}}?
It forces a new line that displays properly on mobile.
For example, here's a blog I made of this profile, and this is how it looks when the above line is applied (you can view the blog on mobile if its just me)

It reduces the visual clutter on mobile and, as far as my knowledge of wikitext goes, doesn’t create any formatting issues.

Oh damn I didn't know about that, that works!

Although, I do still think it is a bit more confusing on mobile (as there's no proper indication for why the statistics are repeating), and imo needs to have a border so people can properly see which part of the page the tabber covers on desktop.

I think we could leave that open as an option, but I would like to discourage it.

I also think that looks better. Is there some way for us to let statistic section explanation titles display in mobile viewing mode as well?

Also, should I ask an official Fandom staff member for an update regarding if they are working on a solution for our tabbers problem? And if so, what should I ask them about more specifically, if you have any requests?

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm. I personally think that separate tabbers for each of the main statistic sections looks terrible in desktop mode, so I would personally prefer to avoid this solution

Damn, I thought it looked nice, but was merely a bit unwieldy if you wanted to look at all statistics in all keys.

and it might be worth remembering mobile phone users can switch to desktop mode viewing as well if they click on a button at the bottom of a Fandom wiki page.

The trouble is

• Many of our users are new/infrequent, and likely wouldn't know about that ability to change.
• This is exacerbated by most using mobile in the first place.
• These formatting issues (imo) aren't something a user would immediately think is the fault of the mobile view mode.
• Even if they wanted to scroll down for that, these sorts of pages are usually ginormous in the first place, and these errors make them even longer, making that quite a trek to rectify.
• It's a known fact within UI development that almost all users stick to the default settings. Those options should be tweaks for power-users or technical issues, not an expected step for everyone.

I also think that looks better. Is there some way for us to let statistic section explanation titles display in mobile viewing mode as well?

Not currently, I think.

But this does have me think back to FinePoint's earlier idea:

Is it possible to have a page that's different on mobile versus desktop, or does Fandom itself entirely handle all of that?

Changing the tabbers entirely seems like it would require an excessive amount of text.

But perhaps we could just have tabber headers embedded in the main text of the page itself, and have that only visible on mobile.

I'm not sure how to do this, I could try looking into it, but some of our editors that are more experienced with formatting might already know.

Also, should I ask an official Fandom staff member for an update regarding if they are working on a solution for our tabbers problem? And if so, what should I ask them about more specifically, if you have any requests?

Yeah probably.

The fixes we'd want, from most desirable to least, would be:

1. Equivalent functionality to desktop.
2. Mostly-similar functionality but with some manageable limitations (i.e. on tabber depth, number of tabs, etc.).
3. Acting as a barebones backup, by displaying the tabber headers in the text of the page with a different formatting than ordinary text.
4. Not erasing newlines by default (quite low priority as there is a workaround).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask a Fandom staff member then.

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked now.

 

[Antvasima]

I have received a reply.

Me:

"Hello.

As I have asked for a few years now, it would be extremely appreciated if Fandom could please finally prioritise making tabbers work for mobile phone viewing, as they are crucial and unavoidable for our page organisation, but display page contents in an extremely incoherent and otherwise lacklustre manner for our visitors who use mobile phones, which statistically are a large majority of our audience.

See here for further information: https://vsbattles.com/threads/standard-format-statistics-section-tabbers.185603/

Thanks in advance for any help. "

A Fandom staff member:

"Hey,

Your community desire is very fair - I will remind the team again that this continues to be a significant pain point for wikis that extensively rely on tabber for organizing their (lengthy!) page content."