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Star Trek revisions

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Aeyu

VS Battles
Retired
2,650
467
Currently being discussed:

  • Top tiers possibly being High 1-B
  • More profiles
  • Non-canon ST profiles


  • All below edits are finished
(Edit: It would seem that we now have concrete proof for a solid 1-B upgrade for all the aforementioned characters (Q, Q Continuum, Q-Prophet, and Nagilum, as well as the Traveler), with this below: (Yes, Voyager along with DS9 occurs after TNG, so it doesn't contradict anything)

Describing Chaotic Space in Voyager, where 5-D aliens were also encountered (And yes, I suppose I can get screencaps)

"As if the Delta Quadrant wasn't tough enough, poor Voyager had to run afoul of Chaotic Space.

Not only do traditional laws of physics not apply, but the peculiar nature of this anomaly allows the indigenous life to rearrange the neural pathways of certain prone travelers. In other words: this place will make you nuts! Case in point, see the episode "The Fight," in which Chakotay thinks he's a boxer.

Chaotic Space exists in 18 dimensions (hey, just go with it) and can be escaped if you reroute the sensor array through the deflector dish to induce a paralateral rentrillic trajectory. Did I really just say that? Yeah, you'll be reading about this again when we list our 10 best technobabble moments."
Text from the episode "The Fight":

Context: Chakotay is possessed by higher-dimensional aliens who use alien terms to describe the geometry of their realm, which transcends the physics of the normal space-time continuum:

"CHAKOTAY: The aliens. They were there, watching me.

EMH: Inside your vision quest?

CHAKOTAY: They were trying to tell me something.

EMH: What was it?

CHAKOTAY: I don't know.

EMH: Are they with you now? Can you hear them?

CHAKOTAY: Yes.

EMH: Let them speak to you.

CHAKOTAY: No! They'll make me go crazy.

EMH: You're not going crazy. They're doing this for a reason. You've got to trust them. Stop fighting. Open your mind. Let go. Listen.

CHAKOTAY: Chaotic space intersects ours at the eighteenth dimensional gradient. Voyager entered through a trimetric fracture.

EMH: Trimetric fracture?

CHAKOTAY: We must escape, or we'll be destroyed."

Former thread contents: So, reading through Memory Alpha and the Star Trek Encyclopedia to find out some more things about starships for a possible revision/creation thread for the U.S.S. Voyager, Enterprise-E, Defiant, and Runabout-class ships, I came across an interesting, canon note as to how quantum torpedoes work, as referenced by the Wiki:

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual states that the basic mechanism of the quantum torpedo was first operated experimentally in 2236. The first warhead application was tested in 2355, afterwards the mass fabrication started. The Federation quantum torpedo model is called "Pho-torp Mark Q-II" and it has a casing differently shaped from the photon torpedo.

The quantum warhead relies on rapid energy extraction from zero-point vacuum. This is established from an 11-dimensional space-time membrane, twisted into a Genus-1 topology string, housed inside the ultraclean vacuum of a 1.38 meter-long teardrop shaped zero-point field reaction chamber. The detonation of a photon torpedo warhead, enriched with fluoronetic vapor, inside the torpedo powers a continuum distortion emitter. It expands the membrane and pinches it out of the background vacuum. The membrane forms into subatomic particles accompanied by a high-explosive energy release."

This essentially canonically confirms the existence of now at least 11 dimensions, and does not technically contradict TNG, as DS9 and quantum torpedo technology did not appear widespread until AFTER the end of TNG, which is when the 10-D, possibly 26-D statement was made. Q and his associated forms as well as Nagilum both transcend the multiverse, which was stated to be possess this level of dimensionality due to subspace (an interlinked physical framework directly linked to the existence of higher dimensions with infinite domains and possibly a countless number of dimensional layers), and the Q profiles would receive upgrades to account for this on their low-end, reflecting a Low 1-B rating, with Nagilum and the Q-Prophet possibly getting a straight 1-B for transcending this dimensional level.
 
Seems like relatively sound reasoning behind the upgrade, don't see much of an issue overall regarding it's tier change.
 
I was just about in inquire specifically about whether the Q are 11-26 dimensional or are above them, hence the at least High 1-C possibly 1-B instead of just straight up 1-B. Not to mention in subspace fractures you can access alternate timelines (which includes the J.J. Abrahms Kelvin timeline)
 
Subspace possesses an infinite number of domains and alternate/parallel universes, as well as "limitless," higher dimensions with now 11 and 26 dimensions outlined. Since the Continuum transcends the space-time continuum, At least Low 1-B, possibly 1-B would probably be the most logical course of action. I think the Traveler would need to be reevaluated however, since while they're definitely higher-dimensional beings with mastery of space, time and subspace, their realm might not transcend the multiverse like Q's is specifically stated to.
 
yea Q have stated numerous times that they are outside the space-time continuum. the "limitless dimensions of the galaxy" and together with "you non-entities can't begin to fathom the true nature of the universe unless you are Q" bit should place them at 1-B. Wesley may be able to scale to the travelers as well.
 
Well, if Q and the Continuum were rated At least Low 1-B, possibly 1-B, the Q-Prophet and Nagilum would be straight 1-B due to being a dimensional level above Q.
 
if the multiverse is at least 11-D, possibly 26-D, and they are beyond that which would mean they should be 27-D?
 
Q and the Continuum would be at least 12-D and possibly 27-D. The Prophet and Nagilum would be 13-D and possibly 28-D for being a whole dimension above them. Not even mentioning the "countless" dimensions that are also taken into account at the high end of their respective 1-B.
 
where would beings like them be rated, since they are the highest in the verse and supposedly created it too. should also make a page for them
 
Them would be definitely be at the least 1-A, since they predated all concepts, including space and time, created multiple multiverses, and transcended the Q more than the Q transcended humanity.
 
Wow, just as I thought that 11 was going to be the main thing:

Describing Chaotic Space in Voyager (the series in which 5-D aliens were also encountered), from the official, canon Star Trek Database : (And yes, I suppose I can get screencaps)


"As if the Delta Quadrant wasn't tough enough, poor Voyager had to run afoul of Chaotic Space .

Not only do traditional laws of physics not apply, but the peculiar nature of this anomaly allows the indigenous life to rearrange the neural pathways of certain prone travelers. In other words: this place will make you nuts! Case in point, see the episode "The Fight," in which Chakotay thinks he's a boxer.

Chaotic Space exists in 18 dimensions (hey, just go with it) and can be escaped if you reroute the sensor array through the deflector dish to induce a paralateral rentrillic trajectory. Did I really just say that? Yeah, you'll be reading about this again when we list our 10 best technobabble moments."

This is then supported by Memory Alpha, who corroborates this:

"Dimensional gradient" was a term used as part of an advanced form of geometry used by a race of aliens who resided inside chaotic space. In 2375, when the USS Voyager became trapped in a region of chaotic space in the Delta Quadrant, these aliens managed to make contact with Commander Chakotay, Voyager's first officer, by reactivating a gene causing him to experience a series of hallucinations, in an attempt to communicate to Chakotay a means by which Voyager could safely return to normal space. Although neither Chakotay nor the rest of the crew completely understood the mathematics involved, the aliens managed to transmit that chaotic space intersected the normal spacetime continuum at the "eighteenth dimensional gradient," and that a "paralateral rentrillic trajectory" would allow Voyager to escape. Performing the modifications, Chakotay successfully guided Voyager to safety. (VOY: "The Fight")"

"The aliens existed on a perceptual wavelength that normal humanoid senses could not detect. Though Chakotay did not completely understand the geometry involved, he managed to learn that chaotic space intersected the normal spacetime continuum at the eighteenth dimensional gradient"

Legit 18-D.
 
yea i remember the 5-D aliens that became part of that cringey captain proton holoprogram
 
That episode was terrible, but feats are feats.

>tfw Voyager, the derpiest of all the Treks, gives some of the best feats

I'm not surprised.
 
Further corroborating it (although it seems like it has enough momentum to go through) Chakotay, when relaying the information the higher-dimensional beings are telling him to the EMH, feels like he's losing his mind and can't comprehend the things he's seeing and hearing.

Janeway later says this about Chakotay's forced hallucinations:

JANEWAY: What if those hallucinations are being induced for a purpose? Aliens who exist on some perceptual wavelength that our senses can't detect, and the only way for them to communicate with us is to alter our senses. Chakotay's bad gene gave them the opportunity.

Later, in a further hallucination by Chakotay:

BOOTHBY: Still here, son. I'm not going anywhere. (Kid Chaos turns around. His face is a field of stars. Chakotay is spoken to by other crew saying the appropriate words in short clips from the episode.)
EMH: You
JANEWAY: Are
PARIS: Far from where
EMH: You
GRANDFATHER: Call home.
EMH: You
JANEWAY: Are
GRANDFATHER: Lost.
EMH: Do you understand?
CHAKOTAY: Yes. We are far from home. We are lost.
JANEWAY: Our
GRANDFATHER: Home
SEVEN: Is here.
JANEWAY: Our
GRANDFATHER: Home
SEVEN: Is here.
JANEWAY: In Chaotic space.
SEVEN: Chaotic space.
EMH: Chaotic space.
BOOTHBY: Hang in there, son. Protect your head.
CHAKOTAY: I understand!
TUVOK: We are too
EMH: Alien
PARIS: For you
TUVOK: We are too
SEVEN: Strange
PARIS: For you.
CHAKOTAY: Maybe we're the ones who are too alien, too strange.
JANEWAY: If
EMH: You
BOOTHBY: Stay
JANEWAY: In Chaotic space
SEVEN: Chaotic space.
EMH: Chaotic space.
NEELIX: You'll be destroyed!
CHAKOTAY: We know that, but we can't navigate. Our sensors don't work in your space.
BOOTHBY: Twenty more seconds. Don't go down.
EMH: Your
KIM: Sensors must be.
EMH: Realigned.
CHAKOTAY: How can I?
EMH: Your mind
KIM: Must be
EMH: Realigned. Realigned. Realigned. Your mind
KIM: Must be.
EMH: Realigned.
CHAKOTAY: I understand.
COMPUTER: End round one.

Note that this is very similar to how the Q treat lower-dimensional beings when interacting with them, as they assume the appearance of abstract concepts when visualized by said lower-dimensional beings, as their "minds can't handle" the truth behind their form.

Also, this means that Voyager's sensors can, when realigned, possibly detect beings all the way up until the 18th dimension, when previously it was only known that 5 could be detected. The fact that Q defy all logic and means of detection (they aren't registered as a life-form under any circumstances and are non-existent when scanned) is telling in this case.
 
Well, with Azzy (I linked above) approving this as well, do you think that it's justifiable to add the new ratings at this point, or should we wait a little longer?
 
Okay. Could I have:

Q (Star Trek)

Q Continuum

Q-Prophet

Nagilum

The Traveler

unlocked, please? I'll comment back here when the edits are done.
 
You should preferrably wait until I finish the upgrades, but then go ahead.
 
since he is above the multiverse he can probably manipulate every aspect of it, if so then stuff like magic is likely as all the matter and energy in the prime universe originated from the Megan universe. fluid manipulation is definitely as Q junior was about to threaten voyager to fight species 8472 in fluidic space. Probable antimatter and causality manipulation via there being an antimatter reality where everything runs backwards. Not to mention they created the Nexus and the Galactic Barrier was there to keep 0 out, and the Great Barrier to keep God (sha ka ree) in
 
The last one would belong to a non-canon Q profile (Which I still have to discuss with Azathoth, as well as those profiles likely having different ratings, with the Nexus transcended the concepts of space and time) and shouldn't be added, but the rest should be fine. I'd put them as "possibly's".
 
@Crzer

I'll add the abilities; you can add the pictures you'd like to at this point.

(Edit: I've finished with the profiles; add the pictures if you want to now so I can have the profiles lock and the thread closed)
 
Also, I have procured the transcript from the episode "We'll always have Paris" in TNG where Dr. Paul Manheim talks about the existence of an infinite number of dimensions. What should we do with this?

PICARD: You said there were only two of you left. What happened to the rest of the crew?
JENICE: They were working in the second lab. Something happened there a few weeks ago. They were all killed. It was a terrible accident. I don't know exactly what happened. So many brilliant, wonderful minds, just gone.
DATA: Do you know the nature of Doctor Manheim's work?
JENICE: Paul's always been interested in time. He's never believed that it was immutable, any more than space is immutable. Over the last decade, he came to believe that we reside in one of infinite dimensions, and what holds us here is the constancy of time. Change that and it would be what he called opening the window to those other dimensions.
RIKER: Which begins to explain what happened.
JENICE: Have you been experiencing something up here?
PICARD: Yes. What is emanating here is having repercussions light years away, maybe even further.
JENICE: That would explain his anxiety. I had no idea it had gone so far beyond Vandor.
RIKER: Why this place? Why Vandor?
JENICE: All I can tell you about that is Paul and the rest of the team searched for two years to find it. Vandor's exactly what they needed. A planetoid around a binary star.
DATA: Because of the dense gravity of the pulsar.
PICARD: Did your husband ever attempt to define these dimensions, give you an idea of what he expected?
JENICE: No. But he did say that he was very close to proving his theories. And then the accident.
PICARD: Did he anticipate that these experiments might be dangerous?

Later on:

MANHEIM: Where am I?
JENICE: Paul. Thank God. You're on the USS Enterprise. They answered your distress signal.
MANHEIM: I sent one.?
JENICE: Oh, Paul, you're going to be just fine.
MANHEIM: I am not fine, Jenice. I'm not even close to fine.
CRUSHER: Bridge, this is Doctor Crusher. Professor Manheim is conscious.
MANHEIM: Remember, it was worth it, what happened. What will happen, all of it, it was all worth it. Again. It's changing again.
CRUSHER: What is? What do you see?
MANHEIM: I'm having difficulty.
CRUSHER: With what? Are you in pain?
MANHEIM: I have been on the other side. I have touched another dimension. Part of me is still there.
JENICE: Help him.
CRUSHER: Try to stay calm, Doctor Manheim. I don't think it's going to help you struggling against it.
MANHEIM: My mind is floating between two places. It is difficult to know which is which. There is no way to explain it.
(Picard, Data and Troi enter)
PICARD: Doctor Manheim, I'm Captain Picard.
MANHEIM: The same one? (Jenice nods) She has told me about you. Not all, but enough.
PICARD: We need your help. The situation is not good.
MANHEIM: It will get worse.
PICARD: What do we do? How do we stop it?
MANHEIM: I'm having difficulty holding the moment.
PICARD: Doctor, this is Lieutenant Commander Data. Will you explain the situation to him?
DATA: I am fully versed, sir, on all your theories regarding time and gravity.
MANHEIM: How is that possible? I am not even fully versed on all of my theories.
DATA: I am an android.
MANHEIM: Android? On a Starfleet vessel?
DATA: I am the only one, sir.
MANHEIM: Your knowledge is useless, because the work we have done here has made most of those theories obsolete.
DATA: Then you have harnessed a dynamic energy source.
MANHEIM: Then you do understand. Yes. We were able to locate an energy source in the centre of this planetoid. We learned to enhance it, to focus it. Everything worked too well. The energy from the pulsar, the energy from the planetoid. We opened a crack, a window into another dimension.
PICARD: The time distortion we felt.
MANHEIM: Felt? Then it is not confined to the planetoid?
DATA: The range is at least several thousand light years.
MANHEIM: Captain, it must be stopped! You must help me to execute a controlled shut down of this experiment. Get my notes, they're in the lab.
PICARD: How do we bypass the security system?
MANHEIM: I'll give you the correct coordinates to beam safely down to Vandor, and the codes you need to bypass security systems to get into my lab.

Later still:

DATA: I will need to add a specific amount of antimatter to rebalance and align the system.
PICARD [OC]: Will that plug the hole?
DATA: Theoretically, yes. In reality I do not know.
(He opens a container and gets the antimatter, putting it on the end of a long rod)
DATA: When the effect hits, the forcefields will align, opening a clean straight path to the other dimension. Whatever the time distortion, I must add the antimatter at the appropriate moment. Geordi, if the Professor was right, I will need a twenty seven second countdown.
LAFORGE [OC]: You got it, Data.
DATA: Captain, I now have the antimatter and am moving towards the opening at the end of the lab. The next time distortion should occur within seconds. Geordi, begin countdown on my mark. Now.
(There's a big sparkle. Data looks back to see himself midway across the lab - no 2 - and getting the antimatter - no 3. Meanwhile, Geordi's voice is counting down, very echoy)
DATA 3: Captain, there appear to be three of us.
DATA 1: Should I drop the antimatter or wait for one of you?
DATA 3: Only one of us is at the correct time continuum.
DATA 1: Which one?
DATA 2: Me. It's me.
GEORDI [OC]: Five, four, three, two, one.
(The middle Data arrives at number 1 and the antimatter goes in, before number 3 gets there. The effect stops. There is only one Data)
PICARD [OC]: Data, report. Are you all right?
DATA: Yes, sir.
PICARD [OC]: Is it closed?
DATA: It is well patched, sir. Closed indicates a permanent condition, which I cannot guarantee.

The words "time continuum" would denote that Data is speaking about time in the temporal dimension sense, which may lend itself to describing infinite temporal dimensions. Manheim describes another dimension thusly:

JENICE: Describe it.
MANHEIM: I can't, not yet. The only words that fit are too pale because the images are so vibrant. It's not like anything anyone has ever experienced before. There was, no, no, there is this kind of life. Not like us. Not like this. What's the condition of my lab?

Now, I know the obvious response (Azzy already gave it before when I had less information about the subject. They could be talking about parallel universes, which are already confirmed due to the anomalous nature of subspace as well as showings in the episode of TNG "Parallels", as well as several others. But then Picard says this:

PICARD: There is. Paul Manheim. Fifteen years ago he went off to work on experiments relating to non-linear time. It appears he may have achieved some measure of success. Speed warp eight.

Non-linear time strongly suggests that what he's talking about is in fact separate temporal dimensions, which would make sense given that when Manheim steps into another dimension, he is immediately greeted by sights he cannot describe in human words. Note that I'm not necessarily 100% advocating a High 1-B upgrade, though I admit it seems to be a reasonable possibility.
 
Other than the above query, @Ant I think the profiles can be locked.
 
like a possibly High 1-B I suppose? yea and its not like Dr Manheim is some quack pseudoscientist so i think he's credible
 
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