Steller level feats + Speed change + Void updates for Shadow Fight (Need admins)

[Richard5128pm]

Introduction​

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Hello everyone, with every new event in Shadow Fight 3, we get a new statement or feat that could serve as a potential upscale. This crt provides a thorough revision of them.
This thread has three sections: the first focuses on stellar elements, the second contains a major speed rework for the entire verse, and the third focuses on void-related statements.

Section 1​

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Void energy statement
Chorus of the void is one of the most well known sets in this verse, worn by major characters like Mnemos (ancient). Its legendary skin comes with a statement about void energy (one of the three energy types powering this armor): Void energy can erase any matter in seconds. The outpost where this mysterious armor was found turned to dust in an instant, lighting up the night with a flash brighter than a dying sun.
It produced a flash that was bright enough to light up the night sky. If we consider "dying sun" as referring to the red giant phase of the sun (literally, the dying phase of the sun), we can scale it accordingly. Currently, the sun's energy output (in luminosity alone) is 3.828 x 10^26 watts. During its red giant peak, the Sun's luminosity rises nearly 3000 times its current value (7.7 x 10^29 watts), producing a flash brighter than it should scale to Moon level (referring to the Attack potency page). The suit can withstand such energy output, and characters can deal damage to the player equipped with this armor, making them worthy of this rating.

Supernova feat
In the latest special event, the player faces ITU (the Void’s dream). He has several abilities, including the ability to summon black holes (5-A) that pull the player in and immobilize them temporarily, and the ability to perform Dimensional Slash, which opens a portal to a dying star and deals heavy damage to the player.
Since the star’s mass isn’t stated, we can assume the bare minimum required for a supernova: around 8 solar masses. I’m including this feat to show how consistently the cosmology incorporates stellar-level elements in combat.

Star Liquidator statement
The primordial void of shadow fight cosmology hosts not only its multiverse, but also a star system containing thousands, if not millions of void stars. These stars (presumably burning on void energy) could be way more powerful than any regular star found inside universes, based on the previous void energy statement (energy conversion: Regular matter Outpost --> Moon level energy output). Star Liquidators can burn out the ancient stars to help bring new ones to life. Many characters evenly match the player with this set, but since there are no quantifiable details about these void stars, they remain inconclusive. Again, adding this here just for the sake of consistency.

Section 2​

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Currently, the characters in Shadow Fight Arena reach speed of light/FTL speeds by dodging light attacks.
For example, we can consider Helga's Light Smite; Fireguard can dodge it perfectly using its evasion move; this speed is then evenly matched by the rest of the cast, warranting them a FTL~ speed (higher with shadow energy).
However, this wiki applies it only to Arena characters; it should be applied to all characters as Shadow Fight Arena is canon to Shadow Fight 3, and the majority of Arena's cast includes SF2/SF3 characters (eg, Helga appears in both Arena and Sf3).

Section 3​

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Letter from Void's dream
This is to shine some light on my previous thread about The Void, which was rejected because members thought it lacked one of the key characteristics required for BE3, which is to have its state of nonexistence be the reason for its superiority.
Itu (Void's dream) discusses his origin in this letter. What's interesting about this letter is that something very similar to Nirvana is being mentioned as the Universe gets to know about itself (enlightenment), it goes as follows: the Universe goes through countless cycles of birth and death --> finally dreams of a vessel, uses the vessel to know herself/seek answers --> when she finds the answers (enlightenment) --> All meaning is rendered obsolete (all worldly concepts/dualities lose relevance i.e. Trancending them) --> Blissful nothingness reigns (dissolves/ascends to formless emptiness i.e. becomes one with the void).

Hoaxen (one of the 10 underworld gods) personifies the concept of illusions and incomprehensible principles of life; he is the master of illusions. He states life itself is an illusion, and he enjoys as people get stuck in their own illusions; this is a descriptive remark about reality and perception, which reinforces the nirvana argument.

Non-duality statement for the Void (+ addition to tenebris' profile)
In the latest Void world chapter, Caligrapher states that Tenebris (the user of the Tenebris language, which is used to create planes/universes) does not view the world as dualistic at all; dualities like Fire/Ice, Life/Death, and Light/Dark are the same phenomenon to him. He is the one who forged the light and darkness (duality) of worlds. This suggests that Tenebris is a higher-order being that is not bound to classical logic, in general. Reality was shaped using his language, which lacks the logical operator "not", which means reality has a non-dual layer where A and not-A are the same; he both predates it and exists beyond it (in the void). Therefore, Paraconsistent physiology (type 2) should be added to his profile.

Let's look at one more instance where non-duality was mentioned in this series. The plot is about the veil between worlds becoming thin during Halloween (a.k.a. Night of the Dead in some cultures), which allows spirits from the realm of the dead to enter the world of the living. After fighting, one of these spirits talks about "the past combining with the future, truth with falsehood, where the veil is thin". This suggests that adjacency to the void dissolves general duality, and the void exists beyond that layer of reality; Tenebris is the physical manifestation of the void.

Eternally "Now" / "Present"
I want to expand more on the "past combining with the future" part. It is said that void room (a supercomputer in the void) perceives the past, present, and the future all at once; it views the timeline from an external perspective. Meanwhile, inside reality, time is said to be malleable and flexible; changes in the past have real-time effects on the present (in chapter 7.1, the player travels back to the past thrice, each of these travels made immediate changes in the present that didn't exist before the time travel). This indicates the void's higher existence, compared to space-time.

This is backed up in one of the Q&A sessions with the developers; events happen sequentially to the player. June's plane, Itu's plane and Marcus's plane are 3 different timelines, but their events take place sequentially in the story (June --> Itu --> Marcus).

During June's plane, Stranger was still inferior to Shadow. (He was completely powerless)

After the events of June's plane are over, we move on to Itu's plane. By the midsection of Itu's plane, Stranger grows stronger than Shadow; he was finally capable of performing reality warps and changing the world to his will.

In Marcus's plane, the world has always been under his control, which is the complete opposite of June's plane.

This sequence is completely broken due to the nature of the void. All these events take place simultaneously.

Eternal Void
Nothing in the Void is eternal other than the Void itself. It is said to be the source of everything, Incomprehensible and works with its own laws (Void's first announcement in Shadow Fight 3 - Teletype).
The above arguments draw some similarities between the Void and the God key of this profile. But obviously, the argued rating here is not boundless, but 1-A instead.

This suggests the Void's nonexistent nature is, in fact, the reason for its superiority among other things, so BDE3 has to be suitable.
Please refer to my previous crt for some more info on the void.

Edit - A few more scans and arguments have been added this week

Conclusion​

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High-tier characters of this verse, i.e. the ones who can keep up with Mnemos in combat, should have their tier changed to Moon level (5-C).
This includes (15): Proximus, Shadow, Shadow mind, Bolo, King of the legion, Magmarion, Titan, Shroud, Shadow Doubles and May (Justice).

Speed change for all characters (except Old Wounds): Massively Hypersonic+ --> FTL

Paraconsistent physiology (type 2) should be added to tenebris' profile.

BDE3 is left open for discussion to see if it is agreed upon. If accepted, the following changes would be appropriate

Spoiler: 1-A Tier changes

Tenebris (The Father / Creator) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A (Created everything in the void, which includes the countless number of worlds with their dualities and the Infinity beacon, which stretches to every part of the void, to act as a transportation and communication system.)

Architect (The Writer) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A (As the writer of the Shadow Fight series, Architect sees both Tenebris and The Void as fictional entities. Architect stated he can delete the entire world of Shadow Fight if he wills so. Kept up with Shadow, after the latter previously defeated Tenebris in combat.)

Shadow (Underworld) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A at peak (Defeated the underworld Gods and Tenebris in combat. In the TURN BACK ending, Shadow received power directly from the void, to shape reality with his hands and make peace with the Eternals.)

Sensei - 8-C | 8-C | 8-C, potentially Low 1-C, possibly 1-A with Void's power (Received the void's power alongside Shadow.)

Votes

Agree -

Neutral -

Disagree -

 

[Secimatar]

Agree with everything except that everyone who scales to 8-C should be changed to 5-C. Since this statement is for chorus of the void set, I don't think anyone who scales below Mnemos should get this rating.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

I'm with Secimatar on the 5-C rating being attributed to those who realistically are on Mnemos' tier. It shouldn't be entirely hard to categorize characters this way. I'd say those who are clearly a cut above the Shadow Demons are in the same tier as Mnemos, since in Ishtar's Adventure Quest we see both Lynx and Butcher respect the authority and power of Destroyer of Epochs Itu, who appears to be a sort of nemesis of Chorus of the Void Mnemos (who even states that he defeated the previous Destroyer of Epochs). Now to clarify a stray win that a character gains against Lynx, Butcher, Widow or any other future Shadow Demon doesn't automatically make them Mnemos tier. I'd say the way we should look at it is from a lore perspective by asking ourselves "does X character win 7-8/10 fights against a Shadow Demon?". Since I think we can all agree that in this case Shadow, Bolo / Real Itu, King of the Legion, Descendant, Shadow Mind, Magmarion etc. are more than capable of stomping these guys. Meanwhile a character like Ishtar - while I can definitely see her winning fights consistently against the Shadow Demons - does not yet carry the same narrative feats and descriptions about herself like the guys I've mentioned previously, who realistically would make the Shadow Demons shake in their boots at the mere idea of fighting them. She definitely is set up for some great potential in the story but as it currently stands it doesn't seem like the Shadow Demons have much to say about her from a strength point of view - whom mind you she has plenty of interactions with.

Also Tenebris has statements about him from way back in 2020-ish from the developer Q&As where they described him as a being who is neither good nor evil, as he has a different moral compass from that of humans, which further pushes the narrative that he sees the world in a different, non-dualistic way.

The Void stuff looks crisp, I agree.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Got it, I'll make the changes.

 

[Vietthai96]

lighting up the night with a flash brighter than a dying sun.

This is simply a metaphor comparison. Not a literal dying sun; you need more proof than this. The best is an actual dying sun. This is similar to how we don't considered someone have statement like "Character A is so fast that he look like a flash of light" to be actual light speed

He has several abilities, including the ability to summon black holes (5-A) that pull the player in and immobilize them temporarily, and the ability to perform Dimensional Slash, which opens a portal to a dying star

This seems like just an artistic visual rather than a literal black hole or dying star. Even though the visuals seem correct, you need at least actual evidence of these things being real. We have a strict standard on these kind of things

For a black hole, you need to show the following trait:

1. Gravity
2. Time Dilation
3. Spaghettification

There are more, but at least it should have these traits. From what i see in the visual, other than the visual, which seems very correct with how we visualized black hole on screen, it only have basic gravity stuff, which not qualify

The primordial void of shadow fight cosmology hosts not only its multiverse, but also a star system containing thousands, if not millions of void stars

A multiverse is greater than a star system, so ngl, I don't understand the point of this. Also, what is a void star? The scan didn't say that?

The characters in this verse reach speed of light/FTL speeds by dodging light-based attacks.
For example, we can consider Helga's Light Smite; Fireguard can dodge it perfectly using its evasion move; this speed is then evenly matched by the rest of the cast, warranting them a FTL~ speed (higher with shadow energy).
However, this is currently considered only for Shadow Fight: Arena characters, since it is thought to be non-canon to Shadow Fight 3. But I think it is likely semi-canon (or canon) to Shadow Fight 3, since no official source claims Shadow Fight: Arena is non-canon to Sf3, Arena's world does not contradict with the world of SF in any way, and the majority of its cast include SF2/SF3 characters (eg, Helga appears in both Arena and Sf3).

You need proof they dodged actual light, not light-based attacks, as in attack that is shiny

Letter from Void's dream
This is to shine some light on my previous thread about The Void, which was rejected because members thought it lacked one of the key characteristics required for BE3, which is to have its state of nonexistence be the reason for its superiority.
Itu (Void's dream) discusses his origin in this letter. What's interesting about this letter is that something very similar to Nirvana is being mentioned as the Universe gets to know about itself (enlightenment), it goes as follows: the Universe goes through countless cycles of birth and death --> finally dreams of a vessel, uses the vessel to know herself/seek answers --> when she finds the answers (enlightenment) --> All meaning is rendered obsolete (all worldly concepts/dualities lose relevance i.e. Trancending them) --> Blissful nothingness reigns (dissolves/ascends to formless emptiness i.e. becomes one with the void)
This suggests the Void's nonexistent nature is, in fact, the reason for its superiority among other things, so BDE3 has to be suitable. Please refer to my previous crt for more info on the void.

Yeah, no, this doesn't really change anything. Like, i think you have been interpreting the letter to hard; nothing in the letter says the same thing you claimed

Non-duality statement (minor addition to tenebris' profile)
In the latest Void world chapter, Caligrapher states Tenebris (the user of tenebris language) does not view the world as dualistic at all, dualities like Fire/Ice, Life/Death and Light/Darkness are the same phenomenon to him. This suggests Tenebris is a higher order being who not bound to classical logic, in general. Therefore, Paraconsistent physiology (type 2) should be added to his profile.

This isn't logical duality; simply naming duality doesn't even mean anything, and I think this stuff has been discussed to death in the nonduality staff thread. Fire and ice and light and darkness are contraries, not contradictory; you could have something that is neither hot nor cold, neither light nor darkness, and neither good nor evil (morally grey). Logical duality is A and non/not-A, not B, which sounds like the opposite of A. The logical negation of Fire would be non-Fire, not Ice.

Also Tenebris has statements about him from way back in 2020-ish from the developer Q&As where they described him as a being who is neither good nor evil, as he has a different moral compass from humans, which further pushes the narrative that he sees the world in a different, non-dualistic way.

Moral compass isn't even metaphysical duality, let alone logical duality. A rock would be neither evil nor good since it is a rock, so now a rock is paraconsistent???

So yeah, i disagree with this thread

 

[Arkenis]

This is simply a metaphor comparison. Not a literal dying sun; you need more proof than this. The best is an actual dying sun. This is similar to how we don't considered someone have statement like "Character A is so fast that he look like a flash of light" to be actual light speed

Where does it read as metaphorical? It doesn't even say like a dying sun, just says it did do that.

 

[Vietthai96]

Where does it read as metaphorical? It doesn't even say like a dying sun, just says it did do that.

Yeah? It says the light is brighter than a dying sun. Okay, i worded this in a very bad way, probably because it's night and my brain somehow thought he argued the actual dying sun for the void energy feat

 

[Secimatar]

This isn't logical duality; simply naming duality doesn't even mean anything, and I think this stuff has been discussed to death in the nonduality staff thread.

While that is true generally, in sf fire/ice, light/darkness are considered logical dualities. That was the entire point of the first 2 scans before it, to show that beings such as tenebris don't see the world in a dualistic way but rather the things we perceive as dualities are just 2 extremes of the same spectrum. That is why tenebris language doesn't have the word "Not" in it and hence doesn't have the "Logical operator Not" in it either which is used for negation.
Note: Tenebris language isn't a language that is merely meant for communication like English or Chinese let's say. It is meant to be much broader than that in this context just like how we say "maths is the language of the universe".

 

[Vietthai96]

While that is true generally, in sf fire/ice, light/darkness are considered logical dualities. That was the entire point of the first 2 scans before it, to show that beings such as tenebris don't see the world in a dualistic way but rather the things we perceive as dualities are just 2 extremes of the same spectrum. That is why tenebris language doesn't have the word "Not" in it and hence doesn't have the "Logical operator Not" in it either which is used for negation.
Note: Tenebris language isn't a language that is merely meant for communication like English or Chinese let's say. It is meant to be much broader than that in this context just like how we say "maths is the language of the universe".

yeah no, I don't see anything that is logical duality; you are stretching the meaning of the texts more than what they are. Scan say mostly about how they using language to describe things, like even if I'm going to say Ice is non-Fire, doesn't suddenly make Ice into logical negation of Fire and character literally said Fire and Ice are just phenomenon. Fire at its peak turns into Ice and vice versa. How is that logical negation??

Anyway, i need to sleep lol

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Vietthai.

 

[Secimatar]

yeah no, I don't see anything that is logical duality; you are stretching the meaning of the texts more than what they are. Scan say mostly about how they using language to describe things, like even if I'm going to say Ice is non-Fire, doesn't suddenly make Ice into logical negation of Fire and character literally said Fire and Ice are just phenomenon. Fire at its peak turns into Ice and vice versa. How is that logical negation??

Anyway, i need to sleep lol

They aren't using language to "describe things", Tenebris language which can literally create and shape reality itself (and is definitely not the same as regular human languages designed for sole purpose of communication), doesn't have the word "not" in it cuz the creator of the language and the worlds (tenebris) doesn't have a dualistic view of it. Without Not u don't have negation, hence, u cant have duality either. This is why the logical operator for negation is also Not. I aint stretching anything, I am literally just repeating what the 3 scans say. I'll explain it for you if u want: In the 1st scan, Itu explains that every language follows logic and every language has Not operator which can invert the meaning. In 2nd scan, calligrapher explains that the word "Not"(logical operator for negation) doesn't exist in tenebris language because they (tenebris) don't see the world as dualistic at all. The 3rd scan linked explains how they actually see the world, which is in a form of a single spectrum, everything that is a duality to us is two ends a single phenomenon to them. In the dialogue after this, this paraconsistent logic is withheld as calligrapher adds a word as a suffix as an amplifier to a word that was not the strongest, to turn it into the strongest and its opposite and it works cuz to tenebris and in tenebris language there is no negation and everything that seems as duality is just 2 ends of a single spectrum.
Since you are sleepy right now, I advise u take a look at this tomorrow cuz judging from ur reply I don't think u even understood my point.

 

[Arkenis]

The fact they see it that way, doesn't make it so though right?

 

[Secimatar]

The fact they see it that way, doesn't make it so though right?

No, tenebris is the in-game supreme being of the verse, he is a being of a higher order. He sees the world as it truly is as compared to the mortals who see the world limited to what they can comprehend. The way tenebris sees the world is logically paraconsistent.

Paraconsistent logic is a type of non-classical logic that allows for the coexistence of contradictory statements without leading to a logical explosion where anything can be proven true.

In tenebris's World view there is no negation. This means the logic system can't form statements like:

• Not fire
• Not hot
• Not cold, etc

A vs ¬A structure simply doesn't exist.
Due to this dualistic oppositions can't exist. Humans think in pairs such fire vs ice, light vs darkness, etc. Tenebris's worldview doesn't recognise pairs at all. Instead, both fire and ice are one two ends of the same spectrum.
In paraconsistent logic extremes invert into each other. This is a classical feature of paraconsistent logic. According to this:

• A can become its “opposite” without contradiction.
• The opposite is not defined as “not-A.”
• They are both extreme expressions of the same root concept.

This is different from classical logic, where A and ¬A cannot both be true.
According to tenebris's logic fire= high energy state, ice= low energy state, both are states of one phenomenon and not negations of each other.
Since tenebris and hence the primary structure of the verse follows paraconsistent logic, it means that contradictions can exist to an extent. Like if we apply this analogy via classical logic and assume if A=fire, the ice= ¬Fire, they both can't be true. But in tenebris's logic both fire and ice can be true at the same time cuz they belong to the same underlying phenomenon.
This is why According to the paraconsistent logic of shadow fight verse/Tenebris, Fire and Ice are logical dualities. They are two extremes of the same phenomenon that can invert into each other, forming a real dual structure in-universe. Although, fire and ice are not logical dualities according to classical logic. Classical negation (¬A) requires a binary opposite where everything that is not A counts. Ice is just one specific thing, not “not fire,” so it doesn’t form a classical logical dual with fire.
This is why we demand additition of Paraconsistent physiology or ND/TD considering the concept of duality in this wiki is based on classical logic and tenebris goes completely against that.

 

[Arkenis]

No, tenebris is the in-game supreme being of the verse, he is a being of a higher order. He sees the world as it truly is as compared to the mortals who see the world limited to what they can comprehend. The way tenebris sees the world is logically paraconsistent.

In tenebris's World view there is no negation. This means the logic system can't form statements like:

• Not fire
• Not hot
• Not cold, etc

A vs ¬A structure simply doesn't exist.
Due to this dualistic oppositions can't exist. Humans think in pairs such fire vs ice, light vs darkness, etc. Tenebris's worldview doesn't recognise pairs at all. Instead, both fire and ice are one two ends of the same spectrum.
In paraconsistent logic extremes invert into each other. This is a classical feature of paraconsistent logic. According to this:

• A can become its “opposite” without contradiction.
• The opposite is not defined as “not-A.”
• They are both extreme expressions of the same root concept.

This is different from classical logic, where A and ¬A cannot both be true.
According to tenebris's logic fire= high energy state, ice= low energy state, both are states of one phenomenon and not negations of each other.
Since tenebris and hence the primary structure of the verse follows paraconsistent logic, it means that contradictions can exist to an extent. Like if we apply this analogy via classical logic and assume if A=fire, the ice= ¬Fire, they both can't be true. But in tenebris's logic both fire and ice can be true at the same time cuz they belong to the same underlying phenomenon.
This is why According to the paraconsistent logic of shadow fight verse/Tenebris, Fire and Ice are logical dualities. They are two extremes of the same phenomenon that can invert into each other, forming a real dual structure in-universe. Although, fire and ice are not logical dualities according to classical logic. Classical negation (¬A) requires a binary opposite where everything that is not A counts. Ice is just one specific thing, not “not fire,” so it doesn’t form a classical logical dual with fire.
This is why we demand additition of Paraconsistent physiology or ND/TD considering the concept of duality in this wiki is based on classical logic and tenebris goes completely against that.

Where do they say paraconsistent? I keep seeing you guys put that but maybe I missed where they state that. And it doesn't matter what he is, I'm saying just because he sees it like that, does not mean he is like that.

 

[Secimatar]

Where do they say paraconsistent? I keep seeing you guys put that but maybe I missed where they state that.

"Paraconsistent Logic" is a type of Logic. They don't need to use that word directly in the scans for us to reach that conclusion. They already explained how the logic works in tenebris's view, and that logic aligns with paraconsistent logic. Hence, we consider it paraconsistent logic.

And it doesn't matter what he is, I'm saying just because he sees it like that, does not mean he is like that.

I don't really get what u mean by this. He sees the world that way cuz the world in truth is like that. Just like how a higher dimensional being for example would see the world different to us, not cuz there is something wrong with him but cuz he is not as limited as us. We are limited, we can only perceive the world within our limits, Tenebris, a being of higher order doesn't have those limits. Hence, he perceives the world how it truly is.

 

[Arkenis]

"Paraconsistent Logic" is a type of Logic. They don't need to use that word directly in the scans for us to reach that conclusion. They already explained how the logic works in tenebris's view, and that logic aligns with paraconsistent logic. Hence, we consider it paraconsistent logic.

No one saying they do, I'm wondering if the story even backs up that interpretation rather than just leading yourself to that conclusion.

I don't really get what u mean by this. He sees the world that way cuz the world in truth is like that. Just like how a higher dimensional being for example would see the world different to us, not cuz there is something wrong with him but cuz he is not as limited as us. We are limited, we can only perceive the world within our limits, Tenebris, a being of higher order doesn't have those limits. Hence, he perceives the world how it truly is.

But that doesn't mean he is a nondualistic being.

 

[Vietthai96]

The scan literally said Fire and Ice are opposite and is phenomenon, and then said when Fire reach its peak it turns into Ice and vice versa, this isn't how logical duality work. A can't shift into non A and vice versa

Having a different worldview doesn't mean anything. I didn't see the world as both good and evil, doesn't made myself a nondual being

A can become its “opposite” without contradiction.

No, it isn't, without contradiction there is no logical duality, logical duality is contradiction. The existence of non-A is because A exist and vice versa. If A is lost then there is no negation of A. So A somehow can shift into B already demolish the notion of logical negation

According to tenebris's logic fire= high energy state, ice= low energy state, both are states of one phenomenon and not negations of each other.

?, if they are not negation of each other, how can they be logical negation?

Why it must be according to Tenebris' logic? Duality should be independent from being.

Anyway, wrap up. Literally from your own comment, plus scan. Fire and Ice are actually a single phenomenon that take different form due to different energy state. To Tenebris they are one single phenomenon, but human or other beings view them as duality which mean opposite forces. So the different is literally how the scan said, simply different worldview

So yeah, there is no logical duality here, so no paraconsistent physiology

 

[Secimatar]

No, it isn't, without contradiction there is no logical duality, logical duality is contradiction. The existence of non-A is because A exist and vice versa. If A is lost then there is no negation of A. So A somehow can shift into B already demolish the notion of logical negation

Bruh, how many times do i have to explain this one simple point? Contradiction is required for duality in Classical Logic, Tenebris doesn't operate on classical logic but rather on paraconsistent logic. Paraconsistent logic by definition allows contradictions to exist.

Paraconsistent logic is a non-classical logic system that allows for the coexistence of contradictory statements without making the entire system trivial.

Paraconsistent Logic can have contradictions unlike standard logic which follows the principle of explosion (where a contradiction implies that everything is true), paraconsistent logic invalidates this principle.

?, if they are not negation of each other, how can they be logical negation?

If you are asking regarding Classical Logic, they are not logical negations, which is something I already stated in my response to arkenis.

Although, fire and ice are not logical dualities according to classical logic. Classical negation (¬A) requires a binary opposite where everything that is not A counts. Ice is just one specific thing, not “not fire,” so it doesn’t form a classical logical dual with fire.

The problem is, Tenebris doesn't operate on classical logic, at his lvl negation isn't a thing (which is what ive been saying this entire fking time) so structure of classical logical duality of A vs Not A can't exist. Instead, Tenebris follows a paraconsistent logic of spectrum dualities. This is why According to the paraconsistent logic of shadow fight verse/Tenebris, Fire and Ice are logical dualities. They are two extremes of the same phenomenon that can invert into each other, forming a real dual structure in-universe.

Why it must be according to Tenebris' logic? Duality should be independent from being.

Are u srsly asking this question? Literal first paragraph of the Paraconsistent physiology of this very wiki states:

An ability granted by existing in a state of being that violates the rules of classical logic. Entities with this ability would hence instead operate under the rules of a non-classical logic, frequently a paraconsistent logic and/or many-valued logic. As such they are entities that would usually be viewed as paradoxical.

The reason why we are considering things according to tenebris's logic is cuz the very requirement of paraconsistent physiology is for a being to not operate according to classical logic, which he doesn't cuz Negation doesn't exist for him which is essential part of Classical Logic.

Anyway, wrap up. Literally from your own comment, plus scan. Fire and Ice are actually a single phenomenon that take different form due to different energy state.

The scans say nowhere that ice and fire take different forms due to different energy states. I believe u got this from the analogy I gave to Arkenis. That was just an example i provided to him to explain that 2 ends of the same spectrum thing cuz highest energy lvl and lowest energy are two ends of the same meter. This was merely an analogy i made and not an official piece of information from the lore. This law of inversion of this logic system is actually not unique to physical things like ice & fire and is definitely not due to some energy states. In fact, everything that is of the higher order follows this logic. I literally provided an example of this in one my previous comments where calligrapher inverts the meaning of the word and turning it into its opposite written in tenebris language (The language used to create and shape reality itself) by the collector by amplifying it to its apex. (since alot of u here arent aware of the lore, heres a little context: Collector sealed the entrance by using a word from the tenebris language of the 12th order. The only way to break this seal was to negate it by writing its opposite or by writing a word stronger than it. The only word stronger than a word of the 12th order was tenebris which no one knew how to write and the tenebris language doesn't have the word "not" so negation is not possible. So in the end, calligrapher had to amplify to its apex inorder for it to invert into its opposite.) This shows that the logic provided isnt unique to just a few physical things but applies universally.

To Tenebris they are one single phenomenon, but human or other beings view them as duality which mean opposite forces. So the different is literally how the scan said, simply different worldview

Nope, both the scans and I clearly explained how that is not just tenebris's "view" of the world but that is how tenebris and the world itself truly operates. Your understanding of this whole things is like how humans and animals see different colors of the same thing but that is not how it is stated in lore. If it was merely tenebris's worldview, then tenebris language, reality, and existence doesn't need to work on this logic. Why do things become opposites when they reach their peak? cuz that is the law of logical system they obey. Tenebris is literally the in-game supreme being of the verse and a being of a higher order. He doesn't just see things differently but rather he sees things that way cuz thats how they truly are. Regular beings in sf verse don't see things that way and still use regular classical logic cuz they are limited by it, tenebris isn't. Logical Negation itself doesn't exist for tenebris cuz things aren't logical opposite but 2 ends of the same underlying spectrum.

So yeah, there is no logical duality here, so no paraconsistent physiology

Paraconsistent Physiology is as clear as clean water here. You are only considering the definition of dualities based on classical logic here, which doesn't make any sense cuz of the character and the ability in question are both based upon non-classical logic. Non classical dualities don't just have to be A vs Not A and can be much more than just that while still being considered as a logical duality such as Dialectical Dualities (Hegelian Logic), Fuzzy Logical Dualities, Modal Dualities, etc. All of these along with many other type of non-classical logical dualities are not based upon A vs ¬A as u keep insisting. Sf's paraconsistent duality that was presented here is more of a combination of Fuzzy Logical Dualities and paraconsistent contraries. (I plead u to pls at least check about them before replying). What u keep pointing out in all of ur replies is that how the logic system provided in sf is not compatible with classical logic, which is literally our point... like yeah bro, we know that all of this stuff is not classical logic which is why we argue for paraconsistent physiology, an ability literally based on not being compatible with classical logic.

 

[Vietthai96]

it is midnight so i don't have time to reply to this but let's ping some experts

@Agnaa @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

Terribly sorry for the ping, but your help is appreciated

 

[Richard5128pm]

This is simply a metaphor comparison. Not a literal dying sun; you need more proof than this. The best is an actual dying sun. This is similar to how we don't considered someone have statement like "Character A is so fast that he look like a flash of light" to be actual light speed

It's not really a metaphorical comparison; all it conveys is that void energy can erase matter (a real trait), and the outpost where this armor was found (made of matter) turned to dust in an instant (a real event), producing enough energy in the form of luminosity (flash) to light up the entire night, brighter than a dying sun (a genuine comparison in luminosity, to show magnitude). --> this bit is written like a lore exposition, has no poetic or figurative language.
The analogy you've given doesn't even match this.
To be considered a metaphorical comparison, it would need to be a figurative speech, one that involves a poetic context or an exaggerated style at least ("His anger burned hotter than the sun").
The comparison is used to describe an effect, and the tone is kept factual; you can't dismiss it as metaphorical comparison every time you see than being used.

This seems like just an artistic visual rather than a literal black hole or dying star. Even though the visuals seem correct, you need at least actual evidence of these things being real. We have a strict standard on these kind of things

For a black hole, you need to show the following trait:

1. Gravity
2. Time Dilation
3. Spaghettification

There are more, but at least it should have these traits. From what i see in the visual, other than the visual, which seems very correct with how we visualized black hole on screen, it only have basic gravity stuff, which not qualify

The scan I linked uses the right terminology and statement to back the visuals; these are not written in flowery language, they literally describe the abilities as they are, you can't dismiss them as just artistic visuals when in-game terminology backs them. I've referred to the blackhole feats in fiction page before adding this bit. If some elements of a black hole are missing, the statement which describes them can be used to prove their validity.
In this case, they're namely "Singularity", "Black hole", "Supernova" and "Dying star".

A multiverse is greater than a star system, so ngl, I don't understand the point of this. Also, what is a void star? The scan didn't say that?

You're attacking a point I didn't even make (red herring vibes). I wasn't comparing the multiverse to a star system; I was simply explaining the cosmology.
And I've given a clear note as to why we consider them inconclusive; there's no clear mention of the size and composition of those stars.
The point is to show that this cosmology does not shy away from having its characters deal with stellar objects (burning them or using them in combat). I've added that bit only for consistency (as explained in the OP).

You need proof they dodged actual light, not light-based attacks, as in attack that is shiny

This has already been in place for many years now, quoting Azuma's profile -

Speed: Speed of Light (Can dodge Fireguard's Evasion shadow ability after the previous used it to dodge Helga's Smite), higher with Shadow Form (With Shadow Energy's help, Azuma can become faster by entering Shadow Form)

This CRT is not proving the feat, but is arguing to apply it for the rest of the verse, since it is treated as at least semi-canon/canon.

Yeah, no, this doesn't really change anything. Like, i think you have been interpreting the letter to hard; nothing in the letter says the same thing you claimed

Why.



As for paraconsistent physiology, secimatar seems to have raised some good points.

 

[Udlmaster]

Letter from Void's dream
This is to shine some light on my previous thread about The Void, which was rejected because members thought it lacked one of the key characteristics required for BE3, which is to have its state of nonexistence be the reason for its superiority.
Itu (Void's dream) discusses his origin in this letter. What's interesting about this letter is that something very similar to Nirvana is being mentioned as the Universe gets to know about itself (enlightenment), it goes as follows: the Universe goes through countless cycles of birth and death --> finally dreams of a vessel, uses the vessel to know herself/seek answers --> when she finds the answers (enlightenment) --> All meaning is rendered obsolete (all worldly concepts/dualities lose relevance i.e. Trancending them) --> Blissful nothingness reigns (dissolves/ascends to formless emptiness i.e. becomes one with the void)
This suggests the Void's nonexistent nature is, in fact, the reason for its superiority among other things, so BDE3 has to be suitable. Please refer to my previous crt for more info on the void.

Non-duality statement (minor addition to tenebris' profile)
In the latest Void world chapter, Caligrapher states Tenebris (the user of tenebris language) does not view the world as dualistic at all, dualities like Fire/Ice, Life/Death and Light/Darkness are the same phenomenon to him. This suggests Tenebris is a higher order being who not bound to classical logic, in general. Therefore, Paraconsistent physiology (type 2) should be added to his profile.

I would need some more info before giving any certain reason, this is because of the "poisoning" the Void is doing to the text.

What I mean by this is that, it's hard to say that this is Mahayana Nirvana-inspired nothingness (The true state of all things is Emptiness) or is Void-based Extreme Nihilism (A belief that the Void is the final conclusion of every ala post-Heat death without being ontologically superior)

 

[Richard5128pm]

What I mean by this is that, it's hard to say that this is Mahayana Nirvana-inspired nothingness (The true state of all things is Emptiness) or is Void-based Extreme Nihilism (A belief that the Void is the final conclusion of every ala post-Heat death without being ontologically superior)

Alright, this part is important. I'll try to be as thorough as possible.

In the world of Shadow Fight, Universes don't have a straight beginning and end like they normally do in other cosmologies; these universes follow a spiral, and they go through the loop of life and death endlessly, we've seen this happen at the end of epilogue, so what's being discussed in that letter is not the death of the universe, but a deliberate attempt to end the cycle altogether and not be a part of it anymore, seeking answers and the term blissful nothingness suggests realization and liberation, unlike extreme nihilism based conclusions where things just decay into nothingness. There are some more supporting statements as to why this could be Nirvana-inspired emptiness. Hoaxen (one of the 10 underworld gods) states life itself is an illusion (similar to the illusion cast by avidyā)
Nothing is eternal in the void but the void itself.

Non-duality statement (minor addition to tenebris' profile)
In the latest Void world chapter, Caligrapher states Tenebris (the user of tenebris language) does not view the world as dualistic at all, dualities like Fire/Ice, Life/Death and Light/Darkness are the same phenomenon to him. This suggests Tenebris is a higher order being who not bound to classical logic, in general. Therefore, Paraconsistent physiology (type 2) should be added to his profile.

Tenebris (the creator of worlds, from the void) being non-dual could also support this. I'm not very familiar with Buddhism, but I've heard many say non-duality is very central to it.

This might not be related to nirvana, but I think it is also worth pointing out that Infinity is treated as synonymous with the void, like when Shadow jumps into the portal and the hallucinations of the void talk about devouring him, and when Mnemos calls it infinite.

 

[Udlmaster]

Hoaxen (one of the 10 underworld gods) states life itself is an illusion (similar to the illusion cast by avidyā)

What I'm gathering from that statement is tha tit's more so generic evil boss statement, "All your life is an illusion and we are its creators".

It just seems less like a statement of ontological truth and more a threatening barb.

If you have more backing up the statement so that it comes across as truth and not just a "mwuahahaha", I would be interested in seeing that.

I would like to see more expanded on the "Non-dual" thing too. Since languages like Dzogchen are semantically non-dual in part. Terms like Rigpa, kadag and lhun grub resist dualistic parsing.

So, I would like to know if the language itself is formed from semantic non-dualistic language based on a philosophical view or is it that they are all themselves non-dual entities and therefore their language reflects that, as based on the scan itself, it could be interpreted as either.

 

[Secimatar]

So, I would like to know if the language itself is formed from semantic non-dualistic language based on a philosophical view or is it that they are all themselves non-dual entities and therefore their language reflects that, as based on the scan itself, it could be interpreted as either.

They are of non-dual nature that's why their language is non-dual. As I've stated in my previous replies, tenebris language isn't just a mode for communication for beings of this higher order, but rather it's the language that created and shaped reality. Reality itself can be reshaped using it. Think of reality as a program and tenebris language as the programing language. The language doesn't try to be semantically non-dualistic but rather dualism from classical perspective isn't possible because "not" doesn't exist in this language .This is different from a semantically non-dual language like Dzogchen cuz even in Dzogchen, people still use negation (“not,” “non-,” “empty of”), dualistic grammar and logical contradiction (“X is not Y”). Even when describing non-dual states, the linguistic system is still bivalent. If u were editing reality using tenebris language and u had to turn a word into its opposite u couldn't simply negate it. Instead, u had to amplify that word to its absolute apex which would cause it to become its opposite as logical opposites are just 2 extremes of the same spectrum according to this logical system. The reason provided by calligrapher for tenebris language and reality as well (considering the relation between reality and tenebris language is just like program and programming language) following this paraconsistent logic is due to tenebris like beings of higher order perceiving and experiencing the world as non-dualistic.
Since this whole thing is also related to time and worlds, Itu stated time to be looped, just after they had the conversation regarding how 2 extremes turn into other at its peak and vice versa! implying the 2 being similar in nature, looped.
Itu is the past of bolo who confirmed that timelines are a loop, so pls dont say that this could be merely a theory.

 

[Udlmaster]

I think the grounds for a potential 1-A argument are much stronger if you were to argue that Reality has a non-Dualistic layer which the Void is outside of rather than drawing parallels to Buddhism.

I absolutely find the former more persuasive than the latter.

 

[RigelBR7]

Looks good i agree

 

[RigelBR7]

I think the grounds for a potential 1-A argument are much stronger if you were to argue that Reality has a non-Dualistic layer which the Void is outside of rather than drawing parallels to Buddhism.

I absolutely find the former more persuasive than the latter.

The CRT for Tier 1-A is closed for a while until we have more information about the Void.

 

[VoidWalker777]

Agreed Paraconsistent physiology is also blatantly true so overall I agree with everything

 

[Richard5128pm]

What I'm gathering from that statement is tha tit's more so generic evil boss statement, "All your life is an illusion and we are its creators".

It just seems less like a statement of ontological truth and more a threatening barb.

If you have more backing up the statement so that it comes across as truth and not just a "mwuahahaha", I would be interested in seeing that.

At first glance, it might seem like some lame and generic villain's boast that serves no meaning in the end. EXCEPT, hoaxen is an Eternal.
Eternals are primordial beings created by tenebris to guard Earth. Each eternal personifies a concept, for example, Volcano personifies fire, Vortex personifies water/sea, and Fungus personifies fungal life, and these eternals failed to stop shadow (the protagonist), that's why hoaxen is like "Fire, water, diseases - hah!", he is confident in driving the hero mad with his illusions, unlike the ones who failed with the use of brute force.
Hoaxen personifies the concept of illusions and incomprehensible principles of life; he is the master of illusions. In one of the latest events, he talks about this again, but in a much more matter-of-fact way. He sits back and enjoys as humans get stuck in their own illusions; this is a descriptive remark about reality and perception.
So, when he boasts about it, the likelihood of it holding no meaning is reasonably low tbh. Here's how his domain looks.
Ps - Sly winning against Hoaxen was also an illusion.

I would like to see more expanded on the "Non-dual" thing too. Since languages like Dzogchen are semantically non-dual in part. Terms like Rigpa, kadag and lhun grub resist dualistic parsing.

So, I would like to know if the language itself is formed from semantic non-dualistic language based on a philosophical view or is it that they are all themselves non-dual entities and therefore their language reflects that, as based on the scan itself, it could be interpreted as either.

I wanna talk about one more instance where non-duality was mentioned in this series. The plot is about the veil between worlds becoming thin during Halloween (a.k.a. Night of the Dead in some cultures), which allows spirits from the realm of the dead to enter the world of the living. After fighting, one of these spirits talks about "the past combining with the future, truth with falsehood, where the veil is thin". This suggests that adjacency to the void dissolves general duality and logic. This verse is also known to follow block universe model (explains the "past combines with the future" part).
The veil between worlds is also called the veil of nothingness.

Edit - I've added this to the OP

As for the language issue, I believe it could be either too, tenebris is said to be neither good nor evil, like dashio said

Also Tenebris has statements about him from way back in 2020-ish from the developer Q&As where they described him as a being who is neither good nor evil, as he has a different moral compass from that of humans, which further pushes the narrative that he sees the world in a different, non-dualistic way.

Many Dzogchen sources I referenced to put a strong emphasis on the good/bad duality. But anyway, I think it is really hard to distinguish between him and his language. While his language too entirely lacks a logical operator, making it semantically non-dual.

Sorry for the late reply, had some irl commitments.

 

[Dashio_Tessai]

At first glance, it might seem like some lame and generic villain's boast that serves no meaning in the end. EXCEPT, hoaxen is an Eternal.
Eternals are primordial beings created by tenebris to guard Earth. Each eternal personifies a concept, for example, Volcano personifies fire, Vortex personifies water/sea, and Fungus personifies fungal life, and these eternals failed to stop shadow (the protagonist), that's why hoaxen is like "Fire, water, diseases - hah!", he is confident in driving the hero mad with his illusions, unlike the ones who failed with the use of brute force.
Hoaxen personifies the concept of illusions and incomprehensible principles of life; he is the master of illusions. In one of the latest events, he talks about this again, but in a much more matter-of-fact way. He sits back and enjoys as humans get stuck in their own illusions; this is a descriptive remark about reality and perception.
So, when he boasts about it, the likelihood of it holding no meaning is reasonably low tbh. Here's how his domain looks.
Ps - Sly winning against Hoaxen was also an illusion.

To add to this, the Son of Heaven, a divine being who descended on Earth from a higher realm, describes the Eternals as being the very forces of nature (the concepts they personify). Also it is stated that once defeated, the Eternals' spirits won't disappear but resurrect, becoming even stronger in the process. So it's not like they only manipulate their concepts but also resurrect thanks to their nature as forces of nature / those concepts.

 

[Secimatar]

This verse is also known to follow block universe model (explains the "past combines with the future" part).

I personally disagree with the idea that the verse follows a block universe model. Generally speaking, the world has always stated to have concepts like the free will and time has also been stated to be malleable, both of these shouldn't be possible in block universe. So at that lvl, the world doesn't behave as a block universe. Block universe- esque statements in my knowledge have only been found when discussing things related to the void. Such as liberator of mortals, void's dream , void room, etc. Most of this can be explained due to void's higher nature rather than block universe. Void room (which is essentially a room in the void) see all time at once cuz it exists in a world far superior to universes, this is often the case with many higher order beings in works of fiction and philosophy. It is also worth mentioning that in and for the void, continuity isn't a thing. Events that other characters experienced sequentially, happened simultaneously in and for the void, further solidifying our case. The void's nothingness may be able to erase space-time, universal law, etc or certain properties of them due to its superior nature causing them to fk up. Explaining things like past combines with future and stuff.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Yeah, that’s true. Worlds look like a block multiverse only from the void's perspective, but it does have free will and flexibility from the perspective of the lower reality.

 

[Voidnether]

I don't think the universe being a block universe would really support its BDE3, either way I don't really know about the whole thing as I haven't looked on the thread page yeah

I feel like the rest are fine, I don't know why they're considered as "metaphorical statements" in the first place, when you know — The actual metaphorical statements would be that if you're actually interpreting a verse who uses this and every feat is unclear basically

For Paraconsistent Physiology, I don't see anything about Tenebris occupying both states of said duality or neither states so I might disagree on that but like yeah I'm actually shocked why those are considered metaphorical if anything

 

[Richard5128pm]

I don't think the universe being a block universe would really support its BDE3, either way I don't really know about the whole thing as I haven't looked on the thread page yeah

Yeah, block universes alone wouldn't support the void's BDE3, I agree. It was brought up to show that void-related concepts are the only instances where the story breaks deterministic views, and shows the timeline from an external standpoint. It's not the main hook used for BDE, but certainly positions the void to be something beyond material existence.

For Paraconsistent Physiology, I don't see anything about Tenebris occupying both states of said duality or neither states so I might disagree on that but like yeah I'm actually shocked why those are considered metaphorical if anything

For Paraconsistent Physiology, It is said that Tenebris used this language to create all planes (universes) in the multiverse (for good measure, I'll add this to the OP), given that the language lacks an entire logical operator, which is used to distinguish, suggesting that reality itself is constructed on a non-dual framework, and its logic is inherently paraconsistent. Tenebris is eligible for paraconsistent physiology by physically predating duality itself, or at least by viewing the world in a non-dualistic way. Hope this helps
Duality itself is only a thing inside reality; this goes hand in hand with adjacency to the void dissolving logic

After fighting, one of these spirits talks about "the past combining with the future, truth with falsehood, where the veil is thin". This suggests that adjacency to the void dissolves general duality and logic. The veil between worlds is also called the veil of nothingness.

I believe this is the argument udlmaster was referring to

I think the grounds for a potential 1-A argument are much stronger if you were to argue that Reality has a non-Dualistic layer which the Void is outside of rather than drawing parallels to Buddhism.

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah, block universes alone wouldn't support the void's BDE3, I agree. It was brought up to show that void-related concepts are the only instances where the story breaks deterministic views, and shows the timeline from an external standpoint. It's not the main hook used for BDE, but certainly positions the void to be something beyond material existence.

Well, in this case then Tenebris would've viewed the totality of all the dimensions and space-times, I'd say the Low 1-A reality as something similar to a Narrator if you'd say. I remembered this being his whole thing back in Shadow Fight 2 against Shadow, but I might be mistaken.

For Paraconsistent Physiology, It is said that Tenebris used this language to create all planes (universes) in the multiverse (for good measure, I'll add this to the OP), given that the language lacks an entire logical operator, which is used to distinguish, suggesting that reality itself is constructed on a non-dual framework, and its logic is inherently paraconsistent. Tenebris is eligible for paraconsistent physiology by physically predating duality itself, or at least by viewing the world in a non-dualistic way. Hope this helps
Duality itself is only a thing inside reality; this goes hand in hand with adjacency to the void dissolving logic

I don't think Tenebris making up reality nor him physically predating duality would get him that, the latter one possibly could though since again, I am sure Tenebris has to be inherently linked to reality which should be what he is in the first place. It's stated that the entire reality is dependent on Tenebris, again back in Shadow Fight 2, so you'd just have to get the scans for that and I'm sure it's fine as long the universe contains multiple conceptual dualities.

Honestly, most of the actual feats that he has are like from the Shadow Fight 2 event which I'd forgot since it's been years but you can look it up from there I suppose

 

[Secimatar]

I don't think Tenebris making up reality nor him physically predating duality would get him that

I don't think that is an argument for paraconsistent physiology at all. As I've explained, Tenebris race logically doesn't experience things in a dualistic sense, dualities such P vs Not P don't exist for them as negation isn't a thing for them. They view everything as part of a single spectrum, things that may seem like dualities 2 us are just 2 extremes of the same spectrum. 2 things that are considered logical dualities to them turn into another at their apex, like a loop. Entire logical system of tenebris race is paraconsistent, not classical. Which is one of things that can warrant paraconsistent physiology.

Entities with this ability would hence instead operate under the rules of a non-classical logic, frequently a paraconsistent logic and/or many-valued logic.

 

[Voidnether]

I don't think that is an argument for paraconsistent physiology at all. As I've explained, Tenebris race logically doesn't experience things in a dualistic sense, dualities such P vs Not P don't exist for them as negation isn't a thing for them. They view everything as part of a single spectrum, things that may seem like dualities 2 us are just 2 extremes of the same spectrum. 2 things that are considered logical dualities to them turn into another at their apex, like a loop. Entire logical system of tenebris race is paraconsistent, not classical. Which is one of things that can warrant paraconsistent physiology.

Yeah this works

 

[Richard5128pm]

Well, in this case then Tenebris would've viewed the totality of all the dimensions and space-times, I'd say the Low 1-A reality as something similar to a Narrator if you'd say.

Yeah, that's the case, tenebris can view the totality of space-times. That's more or less the case for higher-level void beings. Void room (a supercomputer created in the void, by Bolo) perceives all events at once, from its point of view, the past, the present and the future don't exist. This is again backed up in one of the newer Q&As with the developers; events happen sequentially to the player. During June's plane, Stranger was still inferior to Shadow. After the events of June's plane are over, we move on to Itu's plane. By the middle of Itu's plane, Stranger grows stronger than Shadow; he was finally capable of performing a reality warp to change the past of his home world, but on a fundamental level, this sequence is completely broken due to the nature of the void.

Honestly, most of the actual feats that he has are like from the Shadow Fight 2 event which I'd forgot since it's been years but you can look it up from there I suppose

Tenebris has only appeared once so far, at the end of underworld storyline, not in special events, though I guess you got him confused with Architect

Also, thanks for the input

 

[Voidnether]

Yeah, that's the case, tenebris can view the totality of space-times. That's more or less the case for higher-level void beings. Void room (a supercomputer created in the void, by Bolo) perceives all events at once, from its point of view, the past, the present and the future don't exist. This is again backed up in one of the newer Q&As with the developers; events happen sequentially to the player. During June's plane, Stranger was still inferior to Shadow. After the events of June's plane are over, we move on to Itu's plane. By the middle of Itu's plane, Stranger grows stronger than Shadow; he was finally capable of performing a reality warp to change the past of his home world, but on a fundamental level, this sequence is completely broken due to the nature of the void.

Tenebris has only appeared once so far, at the end of underworld storyline, not in special events, though I guess you got him confused with Architect

Also, thanks for the input

Oh yeah I probably mistook him for The Architect then, I don't know because it has been so long or not I actually thought they're the same person since I remembered in that event they kinda like made The Architect as the last boss or something (but yeah, the last boss in the underworld region is Tenebris iirc)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Sounds good to me.